help me not be guilt trippy with my kids

[grays]

My mom was a huge guilt tripper and it was awful. But I cant figure out how to deal with the situation where I tell my kids not to do something, then they do it and it destroys something I really like. I feel like I need to tell them im upset bc i told them, they did it anyway, and now im sad/upset/bummed because my thing is destroyed. To make matters worse, they always defensively act like its no big deal which makes me more upset and more guilt trippy. I always end up feeling guilty myself and awful about it after. Gah!

 

If it matters, theyre 8 and 13.

Edited May 6, 2017 by grays
help me not be

[basil67]

Hi Grays. I don't proclaim to be a child behaviour specialist, but I have a background in special needs and working in schools. And I can categorically state that telling a child how their actions make others feel is essential to their development of empathy.

 

Breakdown their behaviour here:

Refusal to obey your rules; Using insufficient care with a precious object; Lack of empathy and remorse when they cause harm. Hon, this is not remotely in the realms of 'normal' behaviour. Have they ever cared about how their actions affect others? Do they have any issues at school?

 

I have no doubt that you love your kids and are doing the best you can with what you've got, but this is really alarming behaviour. Given how old they are, I'd be suggesting you seek help from a child psychologist or get family therapy. Your guys need to lean about empathy and remorse pronto.

[basil67]

Basic restorative justice dialogue for children:

 

What happened?

What were you thinking about at the time?

What have you thought about since?

Who has been affected and in what way?

How could things have been done differently?

What do you think needs to happen next?

[grays]

Hi Grays. I don't proclaim to be a child behaviour specialist, but I have a background in special needs and working in schools. And I can categorically state that telling a child how their actions make others feel is essential to their development of empathy.

 

Breakdown their behaviour here:

Refusal to obey your rules; Using insufficient care with a precious object; Lack of empathy and remorse when they cause harm. Hon, this is not remotely in the realms of 'normal' behaviour. Have they ever cared about how their actions affect others? Do they have any issues at school?

 

I have no doubt that you love your kids and are doing the best you can with what you've got, but this is really alarming behaviour. Given how old they are, I'd be suggesting you seek help from a child psychologist or get family therapy. Your guys need to lean about empathy and remorse pronto.

 

Really??? I thought kids did this kind of tjing all the time! And let me say that my kids have always been loved by their teachers and never gotten in trouble at school (classicly they save it all for mom, but truthfully theyre pretty good with me, too).

 

Theyre also pretty great with empathy. For example, one morning on the way to school we were listening to npr and a segment about fat prejudice and mean things fat people experience came on and my younger one started crying. I think he was prob 6 at the time. Asked him why and he said "I know you used to feel bad about your weight and I hope that nobody ever said anyghing to make you feel bad about that." I was floored and so touched it almost made me think my weight battles were worth it.

 

Just this week my older one waited till the little one was in the shower (bc he didnt want to upset him) to come to me and say that he cant get it out of his mind that one of the girls in little brother's class was in the pool when that shooting happened in La Jolla last weekend. He said he feels like if he had been there he'd probably always feel afraid wherever he went but that he hopes she was too young to maybe even comprehend it so it wouldnt affect her as badly. I thought it was pretty sweet how he seemed to care about her personal feelings and I also thought it was kind of a mature thing for him to think it through that way.

 

Im telling you all of this btw not to defend them but to find ojt if you really think theyre off the charts knowing a little more. My heart tells me theyre totally normal and fine but i have to admit you have me a little freaked out bc you seem to think theyre super off the charts....

 

So Im also going to tell you what actually happened today bc maybe my very undetailed description led you in another direction...

 

I have a favorite pair of flip flops. I love them and I dont want them messed with. My 13 year old has on several occasions put them on to run outside for something quick. His feet are bigger than mine now and he stretches out the straps. So, I asked him not to, gave him an old pair of mine and ordered him some from amazon after they didnt have any at target when we went. Both pairs are at his dad's right now, of course.

 

So I ask him to take out the garbage and sure enough... so I went cray cray and actually yelled, which I always feel awful for.

 

He says he thought they were his, but Im pretty sure thats not true. I think the real deal is that he thinks Im being crazy and flip flops are not a big deal and I can just get another pair. He also said, and I think this is probably legit and understandable, "you got so upset I felt like I had to defend myself."

 

On another note, he is seeing a child psychologist because our divorce was pretty rough and I think particularly for him because he's always felt very protective of his brother. His therapist has been awesome and raves about what a wonderful kid he is.

 

I wrote the OP while he was taking the garbage out hoping to bring myself down a notch by writing it and maybe thered be a response to take the wind out of my frustrated sails. I thought the important problem was with me, not him.

[grays]

Basic restorative justice dialogue for children:

 

What happened?

What were you thinking about at the time?

What have you thought about since?

Who has been affected and in what way?

How could things have been done differently?

What do you think needs to happen next?

 

And btw, this is actually really helpful. Thank you!

 

And one more thing... I have just had a really hard week, was so sick I was really worried for the future, followed by several days of extreme (even for me), insomnia during which I had a pretty traumatic feeling heartache and Im just spent. I got (probably unreasonably) upset at my kid, felt I was handling it badly, and thought before he comes back I need to do something to help myself switch gears because I really didnt want to be hurtful to him.

 

This is making me feel like a crazy terrible mom but I think and hope the reality is that Im a pretty good mom but not perfect especially after such a hard week.

Edited May 7, 2017 by grays

[anika99]

Really??? I thought kids did this kind of tjing all the time! And let me say that my kids have always been loved by their teachers and never gotten in trouble at school (classicly they save it all for mom, but truthfully theyre pretty good with me, too).

 

Theyre also pretty great with empathy. For example, one morning on the way to school we were listening to npr and a segment about fat prejudice and mean things fat people experience came on and my younger one started crying. I think he was prob 6 at the time. Asked him why and he said "I know you used to feel bad about your weight and I hope that nobody ever said anyghing to make you feel bad about that." I was floored and so touched it almost made me think my weight battles were worth it.

 

Just this week my older one waited till the little one was in the shower (bc he didnt want to upset him) to come to me and say that he cant get it out of his mind that one of the girls in little brother's class was in the pool when that shooting happened in La Jolla last weekend. He said he feels like if he had been there he'd probably always feel afraid wherever he went but that he hopes she was too young to maybe even comprehend it so it wouldnt affect her as badly. I thought it was pretty sweet how he seemed to care about her personal feelings and I also thought it was kind of a mature thing for him to think it through that way.

 

Im telling you all of this btw not to defend them but to find ojt if you really think theyre off the charts knowing a little more. My heart tells me theyre totally normal and fine but i have to admit you have me a little freaked out bc you seem to think theyre super off the charts....

 

So Im also going to tell you what actually happened today bc maybe my very undetailed description led you in another direction...

 

I have a favorite pair of flip flops. I love them and I dont want them messed with. My 13 year old has on several occasions put them on to run outside for something quick. His feet are bigger than mine now and he stretches out the straps. So, I asked him not to, gave him an old pair of mine and ordered him some from amazon after they didnt have any at target when we went. Both pairs are at his dad's right now, of course.

 

So I ask him to take out the garbage and sure enough... so I went cray cray and actually yelled, which I always feel awful for.

 

He says he thought they were his, but Im pretty sure thats not true. I think the real deal is that he thinks Im being crazy and flip flops are not a big deal and I can just get another pair. He also said, and I think this is probably legit and understandable, "you got so upset I felt like I had to defend myself."

 

On another note, he is seeing a child psychologist because our divorce was pretty rough and I think particularly for him because he's always felt very protective of his brother. His therapist has been awesome and raves about what a wonderful kid he is.

 

I wrote the OP while he was taking the garbage out hoping to bring myself down a notch by writing it and maybe thered be a response to take the wind out of my frustrated sails. I thought the important problem was with me, not him.

 

It is totally normal. I was single parent to two rambunctious boys and they used to make me crazy sometimes with not listening to me and being too rowdy and accidentally breaking things. For some years I just gave up and just stop buying anything nice for the house because I'd have a meltdown if something happened to it because of my kids being rowdy and careless. I had almost the exact same problem with my youngest son as you had regarding your flip flops, except in my case it was my socks. I would always wear white sports socks and when my son couldn't find a clean pair of socks to wear, he'd help himself to mine. Just like you said, his feet were bigger than mine and he'd stretch them out of shape and he'd get them so stained and dirty that I'd never want to wear them again anyways.

 

Sometimes I would resort to guilt tripping but mostly I didn't because it wasn't all that effective. It's better to enforce consequences for bad behavior. If they break something inexpensive you could make them pay for it by taking it from allowance or money they have earned, if they break something expensive where there's no hope in hell they could ever pay you back for it, you could still tell them they have to do extra chores or something. Kids learn well from consequences so long as they are reasonable and they are enforced.

 

But I don't think you have bad kids or that you need to rush them off for therapy. Family counselling never hurts so do it if you want to but your kids sound normal to me. My boys grew into men with big hearts and tons of empathy and caring for others. Empathy is something that small children can feel at times in certain situations but in situations where showing empathy means being denied something they want or accepting responsibility for poor behavior then maturity plays a big role too. If we could just expect our kids to listen to us because they have empathy then there would never be any need for discipline. I'm sure you have wonderful kids and this will pass.

Edited May 7, 2017 by anika99

[grays]

Thank you, Anika! That makes me feel a ton better bc I can tell you really understand whats happening bc youve seen it yourself. And the sock thing! Exactly! And that helps bc I have spent a fair amount of time feeling sheepish about caring so much about some $12 flip flops.

 

Im happy you brought up the thing about empathy and maturity being necessary to be able to empathize in situations where it will put them out. I think thats def where we are, waiting for it to all come together. I feel really bad when my older one does this kind of thing and I flip because I think he really tries and succeeds a lot of the time. I dont want to make him feel like hes doing a bad job because he deserves more praise than he gets I think. Maybe two hours before the flip flops he volunteered to make grilled cheese sandwiches for all of the six kids we had playing at our house this afternoon and he did a great job and it was a huge relief to me not to have to do it. I did praise him of course, but I wish he could have basked in that for a while without feeling disapproved of immediately after.

 

But what you said about maturity struck me because I had been thinking that it seems to happen when theres a self-control/will power element. If it puts him out too much, its hard for him to honor my request. He knows the flip flops arent his and that itll make me unhappy but he thinks its such a pita to put his sneakers on and he prob doesnt really believe that wearing them for 4 minutes is really gonna stretch them out and theyre just flip flops anyway... And even as an adult Id prob have all the same thoughts but Id grudgingly put my own own shoes on bc Id not want to upset my mom.

[basil67]

It sounds like I got the wrong end of the stick. I'm glad that not caring about your feeling/stuff and not listening to you isn't as bad as it sounded. I had the mistaken impression that they were playing with and wrecking precious stuff.

 

Glad the restorative thing could help. But regardless, don't hold back on how their actions make you feel.

 

Take care.

[mikeylo]

I haven't read all the posts but they need to know how it affects you. They will learn that others, apart from them , have feelings that need to be taken care of otherwise they might end up being selfish adults one day.

 

It will be hard for them to understand this at first but if you keep your ground , they will thank you one day.

[anika99]

Thank you, Anika! That makes me feel a ton better bc I can tell you really understand whats happening bc youve seen it yourself. And the sock thing! Exactly! And that helps bc I have spent a fair amount of time feeling sheepish about caring so much about some $12 flip flops.

 

Im happy you brought up the thing about empathy and maturity being necessary to be able to empathize in situations where it will put them out. I think thats def where we are, waiting for it to all come together. I feel really bad when my older one does this kind of thing and I flip because I think he really tries and succeeds a lot of the time. I dont want to make him feel like hes doing a bad job because he deserves more praise than he gets I think. Maybe two hours before the flip flops he volunteered to make grilled cheese sandwiches for all of the six kids we had playing at our house this afternoon and he did a great job and it was a huge relief to me not to have to do it. I did praise him of course, but I wish he could have basked in that for a while without feeling disapproved of immediately after.

 

But what you said about maturity struck me because I had been thinking that it seems to happen when theres a self-control/will power element. If it puts him out too much, its hard for him to honor my request. He knows the flip flops arent his and that itll make me unhappy but he thinks its such a pita to put his sneakers on and he prob doesnt really believe that wearing them for 4 minutes is really gonna stretch them out and theyre just flip flops anyway... And even as an adult Id prob have all the same thoughts but Id grudgingly put my own own shoes on bc Id not want to upset my mom.

 

Lol...I used to feel dumb for making a big deal about my socks too, but back then we were on a very tight budget and getting new socks was a treat, so when my kid would wreck my socks the same week I bought them I'd get really pissed!

 

Definitely make sure there is healthy balance of teaching your older son the importance of being respectful while also giving him praise and appreciation for the things he does well. I was too hard on my oldest son. He had many wonderful qualities that I overlooked because I was always picking on him about everything he did that made me angry. I expected too much of him and I would give anything to be able to go back to his teen years and do things differently. Now I look back and think why did I make such a big deal about such minor things that didn't mean anything in the big picture of life, but I was a young working single mother, money was always tight and I was always feeling under pressure and stressed. My oldest son became difficult to handle as he entered his teens and I had no patience with him but at 13yrs old he was just 5 or 6 years away from becoming a man and leaving home. Wish I had just calmed down and cherished our time together more.

[GunslingerRoland]

If they break something you care about and it makes you sad, sharing that isn't guilt tripping. It's teaching them responsibility for their actions and it's affect on others.

 

If you start talking about how you are in a dead end job because you had to drop out of college because you had them, that is guilt tripping, it's negative, and it's destructive to their self esteem.

 

Recognize the difference and I think you'll see you are on the right side of things!

[jnel921]

I am not sure what a guilt tripper is...but if the person is guilty and shows no remorse I guess this would be what would happen.

 

I remember letting my daughter borrow the pearl earings I wore at my wedding. She spent the night at her friends, left them there and when she went to get them theynwrre mysteriously missing.

 

I was really upset. But she wasn't. Had the attitude of get over it and that upset me. Kids don't understand the sentimental value of certain things. It's sad. My daughter did worse things like spend a coin collection that took me 8 years to put together.

 

So this kind of behavior isn't normal. A good beating may have helped bit in the day and age where.you can't hit your kids this is the path they go down and feel they can destroy everything and the consequence is minimal.

[BaileyB]

Isn't it funny how sometimes, we work so hard not to become our parents that we go to the other extreme... Sometimes, it's just about looking at things in a different way...

 

You've received a lot of good advice in this discussion to help your kids to learn to develop personal responsibility and empathy. I don't have anything more to say except to tell you to give yourself a break... Raising children is hard, especially as a single parent who is trying to balance the responsibilities of home, work, and life. I'm sure you are loving those children and doing a far better job than you give yourself credit. Best wishes.

Edited May 9, 2017 by BaileyB

[preraph]

Whatever you're doing for discipline, just be sure to always give consequences and not cave and end groundings or taking away electronics early. If they're destroying stuff, they need to see how it feels if they lose their stuff.

 

I remember a day I was at the mall with my friend and her boy. They gave him a lot of allowance and he had $30 on him. He was wearing cargo pants and she'd told him to put it in a zip pocket. At the play area at the mall, she again asked him if he had put his money in the zipper and he lied and said yes. Then he said he lost his money, and she got down on her knees and crawled through tubes trying to find it but never did.

 

Meanwhile he's acting like a two-year-old having a tantrum and feeling sorry for himself. To me, I'm thinking, allowance's main purpose is to teach them responsibility with money and the value of money. So obviously, you don't replenish the money he lost by ignoring her. She told him no, so then he just told her to call his dad and threw a fit until he got permission from him to make her pay him the money again. So what was the point of giving him allowance to begin with? He learned nothing.

 

And I do think it's good to show your emotions. My friend always tried to hide her emotions from him when he would say or do something to hurt her. If it had been me and he had started his crying tantrum about himself losing that money, I'd have flipped it right back around on him and had my own crying fit about him losing the money and show him how upset I was and how bad he made me feel and made HIM feel guilty for purposely pitting the parents against each other.

 

I remember when I was young we had relatives come to visit. These were well-to-do relatives and their kids didn't appreciate anything. I only had some comic books and some little china horses that were mine. We didn't really get toys like kids do now. Those kids came in and just started breaking my little horses and I was so upset that my mother said nothing about it and didn't stop them. I treasured my things, and they just thought things were made for them to use up. You don't want your kids to be like that. It IS lack of empathy, but you'll notice they feel very sorry for themselves well enough.

[anika99]

Whatever you're doing for discipline, just be sure to always give consequences and not cave and end groundings or taking away electronics early. If they're destroying stuff, they need to see how it feels if they lose their stuff.

 

I remember a day I was at the mall with my friend and her boy. They gave him a lot of allowance and he had $30 on him. He was wearing cargo pants and she'd told him to put it in a zip pocket. At the play area at the mall, she again asked him if he had put his money in the zipper and he lied and said yes. Then he said he lost his money, and she got down on her knees and crawled through tubes trying to find it but never did.

 

Meanwhile he's acting like a two-year-old having a tantrum and feeling sorry for himself. To me, I'm thinking, allowance's main purpose is to teach them responsibility with money and the value of money. So obviously, you don't replenish the money he lost by ignoring her. She told him no, so then he just told her to call his dad and threw a fit until he got permission from him to make her pay him the money again. So what was the point of giving him allowance to begin with? He learned nothing.

 

And I do think it's good to show your emotions. My friend always tried to hide her emotions from him when he would say or do something to hurt her. If it had been me and he had started his crying tantrum about himself losing that money, I'd have flipped it right back around on him and had my own crying fit about him losing the money and show him how upset I was and how bad he made me feel and made HIM feel guilty for purposely pitting the parents against each other.

 

I remember when I was young we had relatives come to visit. These were well-to-do relatives and their kids didn't appreciate anything. I only had some comic books and some little china horses that were mine. We didn't really get toys like kids do now. Those kids came in and just started breaking my little horses and I was so upset that my mother said nothing about it and didn't stop them. I treasured my things, and they just thought things were made for them to use up. You don't want your kids to be like that. It IS lack of empathy, but you'll notice they feel very sorry for themselves well enough.

 

Exactly! the loosing the allowance is a perfect example of consequences and even better it's natural consequences. When my kids were still young I was in counselling for a short time to help me deal with panic attacks. I remember complaining about how my kids didn't listen to me and how I had a difficult time punishing them but I used to yell at them all the time to vent my frustration. The counselor pointed out that my yelling was ineffective and my kids were tuning me out. She talked about using consequences instead and said that often times parents don't even have to do anything other then sit back and let their kids suffer the natural consequences of their choices.

 

For example a kid might routinely forget to take their lunch to school, they run out the door without it day after day, so day after day mom nags them to remember to grab their packed lunch out of the fridge before they leave and then when mom realizes they forgot yet again, she goes out of her way to get their lunch to them by lunch hour, bitterly complaining to her kids the whole time about how they are making her life harder and asking why they can't do something as simple as making sure they have their lunch when they leave in the morning.

 

That mom is blocking the natural consequences of her kids behavior and not only is she not teaching them to remember their lunch, she's actually teaching them to keep forgetting their lunch every day because they know she will bring it to them and they don't care that she complains a moans about it. It would make much more sense for her to let her kids go hungry a few times over the lunch hour. She doesn't have yell and complain or spend her emotional energy on the situation at all, just let them learn what naturally happens when they can't be bothered to take any personal responsibility for their hunger. Of course you only let nature take it's course when it's not outright dangerous to your child's physical or mental well being. One wouldn't let their child play in the road while saying "i guess they will learn their lesson when they get hit by a car".

 

The lost allowance was perfect moment to let a child learn something by natural consequences. As for empathy I remember a long time ago hearing a about a study was done to determine how children learn empathy. It was long thought that children learn empathy through the parent who showed empathy. Meaning if one parent was a strict no nonsense parent who wasn't manipulated by their kids tears and pleas, while the other parent was softer and highly empathetic especially in regards to the kids, it was thought that the kids were learning empathy through observing there empathetic parent. However after this study it was decided that kids learn empathy through the stricter, less empathetic parent, because that parent is the one who teaches the child that the world doesn't resolve around them and their feelings. That's the parent who teaches the kids to respect others, while the highly sympathetic and empathetic parent only feeds into their child's sense of entitlement and selfishness.

[preraph]

^ Yeah. I grew up until I was about 12 with no neighbor kids around so I only saw kids at school and I liked to go to school. I had problems with sleeping, which were nobody's fault, was just very nervous at night, so I was always sleeping my best right when it was time to get up and get ready for school. I hated my mom nagging me to get up and also I hated the smell of her coffee, which nauseated me, and still does. But what worked to get me out of bed is she knew I wanted to go to school so she said "If you miss the bus, you're just not going to school." So that did the trick to get me out of bed. She made it my responsibility, put me in control of my consequences.

[Gemma1]

I think it's important for kids to know how their actions affect you, but at the same time, you really undermine the power of this when you overreact over things that aren't really important. So when your kids breaks your grandmother's antique vase that her grandmother gave her, and you cry about it, your kid is just going to think "yeah well she yelled at me and cried about some flip flops the other day, so how important is this really?"

 

Just something to keep in mind whenever they hurt you in ways that don't really matter in the long run. It's kind of like that parent who is constantly yelling at their kids "Don't do x,y,z because you'll get hurt!" So the kids just start tuning it out and as a result are probably going to ignore safety precautions that actually ARE important.

[Whodatdog]

I dont have kids, but in my work situation, I have had to deal with people whos actions are not acceptable. I learned a long time ago that people, being people, are more concerned with how things affect themselves, not others. In general, Especially youngsters.

 

So rather than be upset because they cant see how upset you are, turn the tables. Show them that their actions have consequences. They broke a vase that didnt belong to them. They will have to give back some of their allowance, or will have to stay in their room for an hour each night (with no wifi or phones). They have to see how their actions affect themselves. Always hurts them more that way. And when it affects them, it gives them a chance to see how they are hurting others.

[Gemma1]

^^^I agree if you're talking about a serious issue like breaking a family heirloom. But she's getting angry because her son wore her flip flops to take out the trash. If you punish a kid for that kind of thing, that's a fast route to having kids who don't respect you anymore.

[anika99]

^^^I agree if you're talking about a serious issue like breaking a family heirloom. But she's getting angry because her son wore her flip flops to take out the trash. If you punish a kid for that kind of thing, that's a fast route to having kids who don't respect you anymore.

 

I see what you're saying but why wait for the kids to destroy something expensive and precious to teach them a lesson about respecting the property of others? You don't wait for your kids to do something really awful before you start teaching them, you use their smaller mistakes as lessons so that hopefully it will prevent them making big mistakes.

 

I think it's fine to punish a kid for the smaller things they do wrong, so long as the punishment fits the crime. In this case mom could tell her son that if he ruins another pair of her flip flops he has to buy her a new pair. Flip flops are super cheap so that's a small punishment for a small crime. I say enforcing a small consequence in this situation is much healthier than mom yelling at him and having a meltdown. There is no need to turn a pair of ruined flip flops into an emotionally draining drama that will cause pain to the boy and his mom. Just "oh you ruined another pair of my flip flops after I specifically asked you not to wear them. That is coming out of your allowance" then move on. No drama, no belittling the kid or making him feel bad about himself, but when his allowance is a couple of bucks short 1 or 2 times he's likely to decide on his own that he'd rather put on his own shoes instead of his mom's flip flops.

[Gemma1]

Yeah, I can generally get on board with that. I think your most important point is "no drama, no belittling the kid or making him feel bad about himself." It's really hard for some parents to dish out those kinds of small punishments without the accompanying judgements and guilt trips.

 

I think once kids reach a certain age, you have to treat them the same way you'd treat a friend if they borrowed your flip flops and ruined them. You don't sit your friend down and have a "serious" talk with them and guilt trip then/belittle them. You just casually say, "hey, you ruined my flip flops you jerk. Buy me some new ones!" Kids respond well to that kind of joking nature and they get the point, and it doesn't feel like a punishment, just a normal exchange between adults. But a lot of parents overreact about this kind of stuff and it just erodes respect. Kids (esp teenagers) are forever looking for ways to respect their parents less. Can't give them any extra reasons

[Whodatdog]

The best part about teaching responsibility about little minor things is that it will be a learning experience, and will transfer to larger things. I think parents nowadays are so afraid to have their kids accept responsibility for anything, that when kids turn 16 and something serious happens, they are so used to not taking responsibility for anything that it just comes second nature.

 

Learning responsibility, like all life lessons, start with baby steps.