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Thoughts about My Relationship


RichIMET

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Good day. I just recently found this forum and really like what I have read. So, I would like to get others thoughts/opinions about my current relationship (especially when it comes to abuse).

 

First some background: I am currently engaged to my girlfriend who I have been with for close to two years. In her past, she has been in several very abusive relationships and gets psychiatric care for PTSD issues (related to the past abuse). As for me, I am divorced and have had two serious post-divorce relationships (including my current one).

 

Well overall, our relationship is very volatile. We have had many serious arguments where we both have shown abusive behavior. On my end, I have gotten "in her face" many times, but have never hit her in any way. Also, I have been very bad about following through on things that I have promised to do, leading to distrust on her part. As for her, she has also gotten in my face as well as throwing/breaking several things (coffee mugs, my CD collection, valuable baseball card, etc.) and actually hitting me to the point of serious bruising two times.

 

Given my behavior, I have been seeing a psychologist for my life long anger and control issues. Additionally, I agreed to volunteer to participate in a Domestic Violence counseling group (one of the court-ordered types) as I do not like some of my tendencies. However, I have asked my exes and they both said that I was never abusive in any way towards them. So, I am still trying to figure out why I have shown abusive behaviors in my current relationship.

 

With respect to my fiance, I know that she has also been abusive to me. However, given her past experiences, she claims that anythings she does is now Battered Womens Syndrome, justifying her abuse. I mentioned earlier about two times she hit me. The first time was on Christmas day when she was mad because I gave my ex-wife and her husband a Christmas card (as I have tried to remain amicable with my ex-wife for the sake of my daughters). Once she found out, she hit and kicked me for about 20 minutes then took my cell phone, wallet and car keys and hid them until the next day. Even though she was doing this, I did not retaliate physically in any way (I just took it). The second episode occurred a couple weeks ago when she felt disrespected that I picked up my girls for the night (after work) before bringing her home some lunch. She got so had that she hit me and pushed me into a bookcase. Once again, I did nothing physical to her in any way (I just got out of the apartment and sat in my van).

 

I do love my fiance. However, I am greatly concerned about each of our behaviors in this relationship. Is she justified to exhibit such abuse towards me (using Battered Women's Syndrome)?? Is there anything else I can do on my end to improve this situation??

 

Any comments/thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Good day. I just recently found this forum and really like what I have read. So, I would like to get others thoughts/opinions about my current relationship (especially when it comes to abuse).

 

First some background: I am currently engaged to my girlfriend who I have been with for close to two years. In her past, she has been in several very abusive relationships and gets psychiatric care for PTSD issues (related to the past abuse). As for me, I am divorced and have had two serious post-divorce relationships (including my current one).

 

Well overall, our relationship is very volatile. We have had many serious arguments where we both have shown abusive behavior. On my end, I have gotten "in her face" many times, but have never hit her in any way. Also, I have been very bad about following through on things that I have promised to do, leading to distrust on her part. As for her, she has also gotten in my face as well as throwing/breaking several things (coffee mugs, my CD collection, valuable baseball card, etc.) and actually hitting me to the point of serious bruising two times.

 

Given my behavior, I have been seeing a psychologist for my life long anger and control issues. Additionally, I agreed to volunteer to participate in a Domestic Violence counseling group (one of the court-ordered types) as I do not like some of my tendencies. However, I have asked my exes and they both said that I was never abusive in any way towards them. So, I am still trying to figure out why I have shown abusive behaviors in my current relationship.

 

With respect to my fiance, I know that she has also been abusive to me. However, given her past experiences, she claims that anythings she does is now Battered Womens Syndrome, justifying her abuse. I mentioned earlier about two times she hit me. The first time was on Christmas day when she was mad because I gave my ex-wife and her husband a Christmas card (as I have tried to remain amicable with my ex-wife for the sake of my daughters). Once she found out, she hit and kicked me for about 20 minutes then took my cell phone, wallet and car keys and hid them until the next day. Even though she was doing this, I did not retaliate physically in any way (I just took it). The second episode occurred a couple weeks ago when she felt disrespected that I picked up my girls for the night (after work) before bringing her home some lunch. She got so had that she hit me and pushed me into a bookcase. Once again, I did nothing physical to her in any way (I just got out of the apartment and sat in my van).

 

I do love my fiance. However, I am greatly concerned about each of our behaviors in this relationship. Is she justified to exhibit such abuse towards me (using Battered Women's Syndrome)?? Is there anything else I can do on my end to improve this situation??

 

Any comments/thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

I hope your daughters are not witness to any of this abuse. It's unfortunate as they may only emulate or regard this type of behavior as normal and likely choose partners that are similar to their "role models". This is the sad part. What are you teaching your girls?

 

You mentioned that this relationship is always volatile. I'd suggest parting ways and providing your daughters with a healthier environment.

 

Personally, having been and experienced abuse -- I don't make excuses to justify dishing out abuse. It's a cop out. When one does that, there is no self-reflection or ability to dig deep and do the right thing. There is no accountability because there is no care.

 

People tolerate and stay in abusive relationships based on dysfunction. Love plays no part in it but rather a toxic attachment to one another. For the sake of your daughters, it would be best to remove yourself.

 

Or you could ask her to seek counselling -- but that takes effort, commitment, insight and courage. I doubt she has much desire to change when she has a partner who is an enabler.

Edited by Zahara
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What's the point of this relationship? It's toxic to say the least. Sometimes you just have to step back and realize you aren't good together.

 

Being single is better than being abused. Why are you even in this relationship. Take some time and continue with the therapy. You need to learn how to spot red flags and not tolerate this behaviour. It's not acceptable.

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I hope your daughters are not witness to any of this abuse. It's unfortunate as they may only emulate or regard this type of behavior as normal and likely choose partners that are similar to their "role models". This is the sad part. What are you teaching your girls?

 

You mentioned that this relationship is always volatile. I'd suggest parting ways and providing your daughters with a healthier environment.

 

Personally, having been and experienced abuse -- I don't make excuses to justify dishing out abuse. It's a cop out. When one does that, there is no self-reflection or ability to dig deep and do the right thing. There is no accountability because there is no care.

 

People tolerate and stay in abusive relationships based on dysfunction. Love plays no part in it but rather a toxic attachment to one another. For the sake of your daughters, it would be best to remove yourself.

 

Or you could ask her to seek counselling -- but that takes effort, commitment, insight and courage. I doubt she has much desire to change when she has a partner who is an enabler.

 

Zahara...thanks for the response. I do realize that I need to put some serious thought into the future of this relationship. From the counseling I have received so far, I do have serious doubts about the relationship (especially given I posted about it on this forum).

 

And just a quick point of clarification, my daughters did not witness the 2nd episode where my fiance physically attacked me. It occurred after I returned the girls home to my ex-wife's house.

 

Again...I really do appreciate the thoughtful response.

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What's the point of this relationship? It's toxic to say the least. Sometimes you just have to step back and realize you aren't good together.

 

Being single is better than being abused. Why are you even in this relationship. Take some time and continue with the therapy. You need to learn how to spot red flags and not tolerate this behaviour. It's not acceptable.

 

VeveCakes: Yes I know this relationship is very toxic. However I guess I am just hopeful that it can somehow become better. Also...I do have some fear of her response if I tried to end the relationship. She has already shown the propensity to break things and in the past, she has threatened to try to destroy my reputation with my family and coworkers.

 

Thanks for the response!! It is really appreciated.

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No it will not get better. When violence occurs it's already too far gone.

 

Make a plan, and if needed call the police.

 

You are living in the bubble of an abusive relationship. I've been thee

More than once. Trust me, it's better outside that bubble.

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However I guess I am just hopeful that it can somehow become better. Also...I do have some fear of her response if I tried to end the relationship. She has already shown the propensity to break things and in the past, she has threatened to try to destroy my reputation with my family and coworkers.

 

The bold -- it does not make sense. You believe it could be better but in the same breath note that she is extremely destructive and vindictive. I think you are in denial. People like her do not change.

 

I would rather deal with the repercussions of her wrath post-ending then use the logic that staying would be less detrimental.

 

Stay and enable more abuse and I am sure at some point your daughters will become victim to it or LEAVE. There is no in between. If you can't leave for yourself, leave for your girls.

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Rich, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, controlling actions, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, verbal and physical abuse, and always being "The Victim" -- go far beyond the symptoms for PTSD. They are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your fiance has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong and persistent traits of it.

 

She gets psychiatric care for PTSD issues (related to the past abuse).
PTSD and BPD oftentimes co-occur. A 2008 study found that 27% of the women exhibiting PTSD in the past year also suffer from lifetime BPD. It also found that nearly half (47%) of women diagnosed as having lifetime BPD also have PTSD. See Tables 2 and 3 at 2008 Study in JCP. Because BPDers are so oversensitive and thin-skinned, they are at far greater risk of developing PTSD.

 

So, I am still trying to figure out why I have shown abusive behaviors in my current relationship.
Perhaps your anger issue is a pre-existing condition. On the other hand, if your fiance is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong BPD traits), it is not unexpected -- after two years of walking on eggshells -- that you occasionally will stop behaving like your true self and start reflecting some of her bad traits. This process is called "picking up fleas."

 

She hit and kicked me for about 20 minutes.... The second episode occurred a couple weeks ago when she... got so mad that she hit me and pushed me into a bookcase.
If your fiance is a BPDer, she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

Is there anything else I can do on my end to improve this situation?
Rich, I agree with VeveCakes that "it will not get better" and "you need to learn how to spot red flags." Hence, given your reluctance to end the engagement and walk away, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your daughters are dealing with. Importantly, you should see your own psychologist, not the one treating her.

 

I say this because therapists typically are loath to tell a BPDer the name of this disorder. Instead, they usually reveal only the name of co-occurring disorders such as PTSD, depression, and anxiety. The BPD information is usually withheld from the patients (and from their partners) because it is not in the best interest of most BPDers to be told.

 

Hence, when BPD is a strong possibility, relying on her psychologist for candid advice during the engagement period would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. By seeing a therapist who has never seen her and who knows he will never be treating her, you are ensured that he is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.

 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Rich.

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Is she justified to exhibit such abuse towards me (using Battered Women's Syndrome)??

 

Absolutely not, and it's incredibly crappy that she would use that to try to excuse her behavior. There is no excuse, and she should know that. I think you know that, too.

 

It's very concerning that she doesn't accept accountability for her abusive behavior toward you. And the hitting is not even the kind of abuse that can be kind of hard to define, like isolating you from family and friends (she does this) or breaking objects (she does this) or obstructing you from leaving (she did this) or her blaming outside forces for her abuse (she did this.) It is classic, non-ambiguous physical abuse. And it should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

 

I'm wondering if you need to try some additional therapy - one that doesn't focus on you as the abuser, but you as the abused party. You've got issues that you still need to work on. You shouldn't ever be "getting in anyone's face" and I believe you when you say you have anger and control issues, so keep working on those things.

 

But I think you may benefit a lot from therapy to help you get out of this situation and to realize that you don't deserve that abuse and that there is no excuse. And how to get the courage to leave and not be afraid of her reaction or threats to ruin your life.

 

In my opinion, you should separate immediately. Make it a trial separation contingent on you both "fixing" yourselves if that makes it a little less painful. Easier said than done, I know. But you both need to do some work and serious soul-searching and I don't think either of you can effectively do that if you're together. Some people just don't work well together and it seems like that may be the case with you and her. It just doesn't work, even if both parties want it to.

 

I'm not even sure if she truly realizes there's a problem with her behavior. Do you think she does?

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I have serious doubts that your girlfriend was the abused party in her past relationships. If she is personality disordered there is a good chance she was the abuser but sees herself as the victim.

 

This will not get better. It will stay the same or become worse. If this is what you want for your life then stay, if it isn't then leave. You cannot change her. How important are your daughters to you? Your gf is the type who will compete with your kids for your attention and she will place increasing demands on you to prove you love her more than your children until she has nearly cut them out of your life. That's what her recent episode of violence was about, that you placed higher importance on getting your kids than on getting her lunch. Who in their right mind becomes violent over not being brought lunch? She's an adult who should be capable of getting herself lunch.

 

She is a toxic dyfunctional abusive woman. Her excuse of battered woman's is lame. Guess what? All abusers have heartbreaking sad stories from their past. The most abusive man I had ever been with also had one of the most tragic childhoods I had ever heard. It's no wonder he grew up with serious issues but it still did not give him any God given right to mistreat me or anyone else. This woman will demand that you put her before your own children, that you alienate your kids to make her feel special. Do your daughters deserve that? Do they deserve to come in second to an abusive selfish woman?

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Absolutely not, and it's incredibly crappy that she would use that to try to excuse her behavior. There is no excuse, and she should know that. I think you know that, too.

 

It's very concerning that she doesn't accept accountability for her abusive behavior toward you. And the hitting is not even the kind of abuse that can be kind of hard to define, like isolating you from family and friends (she does this) or breaking objects (she does this) or obstructing you from leaving (she did this) or her blaming outside forces for her abuse (she did this.) It is classic, non-ambiguous physical abuse. And it should not be tolerated under any circumstances.

 

I'm wondering if you need to try some additional therapy - one that doesn't focus on you as the abuser, but you as the abused party. You've got issues that you still need to work on. You shouldn't ever be "getting in anyone's face" and I believe you when you say you have anger and control issues, so keep working on those things.

 

But I think you may benefit a lot from therapy to help you get out of this situation and to realize that you don't deserve that abuse and that there is no excuse. And how to get the courage to leave and not be afraid of her reaction or threats to ruin your life.

 

In my opinion, you should separate immediately. Make it a trial separation contingent on you both "fixing" yourselves if that makes it a little less painful. Easier said than done, I know. But you both need to do some work and serious soul-searching and I don't think either of you can effectively do that if you're together. Some people just don't work well together and it seems like that may be the case with you and her. It just doesn't work, even if both parties want it to.

 

I'm not even sure if she truly realizes there's a problem with her behavior. Do you think she does?

 

CC12: Thanks for the response!!!! It is really appreciated.

 

You bring up a great point about additional therapy for me. As I stated before, I have had anger/control issues since I was a kid, but I am working very hard to deal with those issues. However, I do now see the need for some assistance in dealing with my feelings about this relationship (fear, belief I deserve this, etc.).

 

The trial separation idea looks good on paper, but would not work in my reality. Honestly, I do not think my fiance would believe there was any need for her to do any soul searching (unfortunately). She truly believes (I think) that her behavior is totally justified and not any type of problem.

 

This is definitely a complicated thing for me to deal with. So, I really do appreciate you taking the time to give me your thoughts and suggestions.

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Rich, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational anger, controlling actions, easily triggered temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, verbal and physical abuse, and always being "The Victim" -- go far beyond the symptoms for PTSD. They are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your fiance has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong and persistent traits of it.

 

PTSD and BPD oftentimes co-occur. A 2008 study found that 27% of the women exhibiting PTSD in the past year also suffer from lifetime BPD. It also found that nearly half (47%) of women diagnosed as having lifetime BPD also have PTSD. See Tables 2 and 3 at 2008 Study in JCP. Because BPDers are so oversensitive and thin-skinned, they are at far greater risk of developing PTSD.

 

Perhaps your anger issue is a pre-existing condition. On the other hand, if your fiance is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong BPD traits), it is not unexpected -- after two years of walking on eggshells -- that you occasionally will stop behaving like your true self and start reflecting some of her bad traits. This process is called "picking up fleas."

 

If your fiance is a BPDer, she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

Rich, I agree with VeveCakes that "it will not get better" and "you need to learn how to spot red flags." Hence, given your reluctance to end the engagement and walk away, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your daughters are dealing with. Importantly, you should see your own psychologist, not the one treating her.

 

I say this because therapists typically are loath to tell a BPDer the name of this disorder. Instead, they usually reveal only the name of co-occurring disorders such as PTSD, depression, and anxiety. The BPD information is usually withheld from the patients (and from their partners) because it is not in the best interest of most BPDers to be told.

 

Hence, when BPD is a strong possibility, relying on her psychologist for candid advice during the engagement period would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. By seeing a therapist who has never seen her and who knows he will never be treating her, you are ensured that he is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers.

 

I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Rich.

 

Downtown: Your post is greatly appreciated!!!

 

I have always wondered about BPD issues with my fiance. One time, we tried to have a couples counseling session with a LMFT. Within 10 minutes of the session, my fiance stormed out of the session and I have to spend over an hour in the parking lot, trying to get her to calm down. Her outburst was due to me mentioning how I still had issues with my fiance reading all my texts and emails. In my fiance's eyes, she must have thought the LMFT was siding with me and she stormed out. After she left, the LMFT suggested she was BPD (although I did and still do take his opinion with a grain of salt due to the fact he only was around her for 10 minutes). However, reading your list of warning signs, I do feel that BPD could be a significant issue.

 

I do thank you for giving me some more food for thought.

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I have serious doubts that your girlfriend was the abused party in her past relationships. If she is personality disordered there is a good chance she was the abuser but sees herself as the victim.

 

This will not get better. It will stay the same or become worse. If this is what you want for your life then stay, if it isn't then leave. You cannot change her. How important are your daughters to you? Your gf is the type who will compete with your kids for your attention and she will place increasing demands on you to prove you love her more than your children until she has nearly cut them out of your life. That's what her recent episode of violence was about, that you placed higher importance on getting your kids than on getting her lunch. Who in their right mind becomes violent over not being brought lunch? She's an adult who should be capable of getting herself lunch.

 

She is a toxic dyfunctional abusive woman. Her excuse of battered woman's is lame. Guess what? All abusers have heartbreaking sad stories from their past. The most abusive man I had ever been with also had one of the most tragic childhoods I had ever heard. It's no wonder he grew up with serious issues but it still did not give him any God given right to mistreat me or anyone else. This woman will demand that you put her before your own children, that you alienate your kids to make her feel special. Do your daughters deserve that? Do they deserve to come in second to an abusive selfish woman?

 

Anika99: Thanks for the thought-provoking response to my original post. The comments about her increasing demands of putting her above my kids does "ring home."

 

Before I met my fiance (and for about a month after we started dating), I usually took my daughters to school most mornings (3-5 times a week) and well as a good chunk of their extracurricular activities (soccer, Tae Kwon Do). I really enjoyed doing these things and it did help out my ex-wife who would have trouble doing all of this by herself (but the main reason I did these things was for me). Well, my fiance did not like this as she thought I was being my ex-wife's lackey (or 2nd husband as she has said numerous times) and was putting my ex-wife well above her. So despite my own misgivings, I agreed to only take my girls to school two mornings a week and to one activity a week (and never doing any school/activity shuttling on my days off). Now with Summer around the corner and my daughters a bit older, they are going to be more involved in activities. I want to take my girls to more of these things, but I know my fiance would have an extreme fit with this, accusing me of wanting to do these things due to some NON-Existent feelings for my ex-wife and/or putting her well second/third in my relationship priorities.

 

It really is a very troublesome situation. I guess my fiance has always had an issue with the fact that I have never had an adversarial relationship with my ex-wife . So now anything that I do for my daughters (or am asked by my ex to help with my daughters) is seen as some sort of huge slight to my fiance. It really does not make any sense to me.

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Anything that I do for my daughters (or am asked by my ex to help with my daughters) is seen as some sort of huge slight to my fiance. It really does not make any sense to me.
Actually, Rich, it makes perfect sense if your therapist was correct when he suspected that your fiance is a BPDer. If she is, her abandonment fear is so great that it likely will be triggered by substantial time you spend with ANY close family member or close friend. Hence, if your exW were hit by a bus tomorrow and eliminated from the planet, your fiance's fear would start to be triggered by substantial amounts of time spent with your own daughters. Indeed, your fiance may already feel more threatened by your daughters than your exW -- and is simply attributing her jealousy to your exW because that sounds more acceptable to you.

 

My BPDer exW, for example, was so jealous of the time I spent with my adult foster son that she quickly grew to hate him. It therefore is common for a BPDer to try to isolate her partner away from his own children, siblings, and good friends. Your choosing to spend substantial amounts of time with other loved ones will be mis-perceived by the BPDer as you choosing them over her.

 

Similarly, my exW would take offense when she saw me walking a few steps ahead of her on a narrow sidewalk, never mind that I had to due to the occasional oncoming pedestrians. It triggered her fear that I did not want to be seen as part of "a couple" and, hence, must be thinking about leaving her.

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She truly believes (I think) that her behavior is totally justified and not any type of problem.

 

Then how can you think there's any possibility of things getting better? They can't unless she believes there's a problem with her behavior. You can't be the only one trying to make things better since you're not the only problem.

 

And even if she did realize that she has a problem and is trying to work on it, you still shouldn't stick around and wait for her to fix herself. She is too unsafe to be near. She is actively damaging your relationships with your daughters, and your daughters' mother who you're understandably trying to be cool with. You have no privacy. She hits you. She's ruining your life.

 

She has already shown the propensity to break things and in the past, she has threatened to try to destroy my reputation with my family and coworkers.

 

You can't worry about what she might do to your reputation since she's already ruining your life as it is. What do you think she might say to your family and coworkers? Does she have something on you, or something? Some sort of deep secret that will make people think poorly of you? Do you think she'll tell people you were an abusive monster? Well, she might, but it won't ruin your life. I think people tend to take the ugly things people say after a failed relationship with a grain of salt. I know when I hear someone airing defamatory, dirty laundry after a breakup, I think they're just trying to hurt their ex and I tell myself to remember that there are two sides to the story.

 

It's very likely that your close friends and family have noticed that she's kind of a ****ty person and will be happy when you leave her.

 

Since you're scared of her reaction when you break up with her, just take your stuff and leave while she's gone for a while at work or whatever. You do not need to have a conversation with her about it. You don't need to give her an opportunity to be violent with you or to talk her way out of the breakup. You don't need to explain yourself. You can even look into getting a restraining order against her once you're gone.

 

You might want to consider calling the National Domestic Abuse Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or chatting with someone at The National Domestic Violence Hotline | Contact Us to find out about your options with the restraining order or tips on how to leave and not be found.

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