Why does cancer get worse after diagnosis?

[Pompom]

So a member of my family is on his last days. Suddenly diagnosed with lung cancer. Not a heavy smoker. He was fine until it was discovered by chance, and then it took him like a month to go downhill so badly that today, he was told to have his family visit.

This isn't the first time I hear about people who were fine or had just some minor pains until diangosed. I mean, since the cancer was there and advanced when they were diagnosed, they've had it for a while. So why do they seem to get horribly worse only when told they have cancer? Is it the stress weakening the body? I don't get it. He was fine a month ago. They always seem fine until told. Makes me not want to get a checkup.

[GunslingerRoland]

Sorry to hear about your family member.

 

A lot of cancers move pretty fast. And there often aren't many signs until the late stages. I don't think the diagnosis in particular does anything to speed it up, however treatment can weaken the body more than the disease. In fact many survive cancer just to die from treatment complications.

[CptInsano]

Cancer is also often "underdiagnosed", meaning that the initial imaging only captures the tip of the iceberg. If you ever compared the results of CT, standard nuclear imaging to PET scans you will see the difference.

 

Or in other terms, the initial diagnosis was simply incomplete.

[anduina]

There's a direct connect between the immune system and the brain. Cortisol is produced when people are stressed which can hamper the effectiveness of the immune system.

[Pompom]

There's a direct connect between the immune system and the brain. Cortisol is produced when people are stressed which can hamper the effectiveness of the immune system.

 

Which in turn allows the cancer to thrive? That's what I thought, too.

[anduina]

Which in turn allows the cancer to thrive? That's what I thought, too.

Yes.

 

The more detailed explanation would be that cortisol moderates the inflammation produced by the immune system attacking cancer cells. If too much cortisol is produced from stress, cortisol will over-moderate thus reducing the efficacy of the immune system.

 

High cortisol levels are intended for short term fight or flight situations since it allows the body to tap more glucose for energy spurts. Unfortunately, this strategy is counterproductive to combating cancer.

[divegrl]

The placebo effect.

 

Around 1:20 in video

 

[Els]

It doesn't get worse after diagnosis. It's just that, unfortunately, it's usually diagnosed only when it has started getting bad. The casuality is the other way around.

[mightycpa]

Because unless you can control or cure a disease when you catch it, it's going to get worse.

 

Lung cancer in non-smokers is one of those things you're liable to start complaining about after it is way too late. Pancreatic cancer is another one. You're rolling downhill by the time you find out, and momentum will carry you the rest of the way.

 

Sorry for your loss.

[alphamale]

This isn't the first time I hear about people who were fine or had just some minor pains until diangosed. I mean, since the cancer was there and advanced when they were diagnosed, they've had it for a while. So why do they seem to get horribly worse only when told they have cancer? Is it the stress weakening the body? I don't get it. He was fine a month ago. They always seem fine until told. Makes me not want to get a checkup.

the mental and emotional stress of being diagnosed with late-stage cancer speeds up the terminal process

 

 

my mom was fine one day and then diagnosed with stage IV cancer that had spread. she died 12 weeks later.

[Eternal Sunshine]

My friend's husband died recently from metastatic cancer only 3 weeks after diagnosis. He had what doctors thought were unrelated health problems for a year. They didn't connect them and he was misdiagnosed while the cancer spread.

 

Finally, he had so much fluid in his lungs that he was taken to ER and admitted. That's when he was diagnosed. Diagnosed or not, he would have died when he did anyway (if not earlier). His symptoms were only taken seriously when cancer progressed so much that it caused life threatening problems.

 

People generally tend to overestimate the role of the mind. I guess it makes them feel more "in control". In reality, it was shown that even placebo effect is usually only present short term. It is also stronger in people that have milder conditions.

[anduina]

In the past, brain and body disconnect was assumed. Past neurological assumptions were wrong, as evidenced in 2015 research that discovered a direct connection between the brain and the immune system.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/important-link-between-the-brain-and-immune-system-found/

 

Perhaps the most commonly cited division between body and brain concerns the immune system. When exposed to foreign bacteria, viruses, tumors, and transplant tissue, the body stirs up a torrent of immune activity: white blood cells devour invading pathogens and burst compromised cells; antibodies tag outsiders for destruction. Except, that is, in the brain. Thought to be too vulnerable to host an onslaught of angry defensive cells, the brain was assumed to be protected from this immune cascade. However research published this month reported a previously unknown line of communication between our brains and immune systems, adding to a fast-growing body of research suggesting that the brain and body are more connected than previously thought. The new work could have important implications for understanding and treating disorders of the brain.

 

If you're into nerdy stuff, this is the research the scientific american article is citing.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14432.epdf?referrer_access_token=ehh_Di-uGrGFZDEa942wYNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0PP9svrp_06Oir1YyDWe7ejnTFK5JviW5E2HUfbn5_v93eJGK1fxr336Pot8YEqejbOLwwzTXVCBnBXjVD4dJ4_ERIRdJSfWn46YojLGiWYWZPdqJUCjUpb16hTuYbQOFOx9Ew54O4F5F_Sw1n_bySAS6HE-J_fH-vyU_l9eo-RhRN8CYYQ9TFKmRyKvniM12KgVDPwTiI9wkAh2e48VIrE0KhRFa7uvInMEH8c5_99mw%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.scientificamerican.com

[BC1980]

It depends on a few things:

1. How aggressive and fast growing the cancer is.

2. What stage the cancer was in when is was discovered.

 

Lung cancer is known to have a particularly poor prognosis because it is usually found in Stage 4. It is also grows quite fast unfortunately. There are certain cancers that don't show any signs until Stage 4. Lung, pancreatic, throat, brain tumors, and gynecological cancers like cervical and ovarian cancers are known for this.

 

Some cancers like thyroid cancer, certain types of breast cancer, prostate cancer in older men, and testicular cancer show signs in the early stages and can be slow growing, so the prognosis is generally good for those.

 

I'm sorry about your family member. My aunt is dying of throat cancer, and it's very difficult to watch.

[Els]

In the past, brain and body disconnect was assumed. Past neurological assumptions were wrong, as evidenced in 2015 research that discovered a direct connection between the brain and the immune system.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/important-link-between-the-brain-and-immune-system-found/

 

 

 

If you're into nerdy stuff, this is the research the scientific american article is citing.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14432.epdf?referrer_access_token=ehh_Di-uGrGFZDEa942wYNRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0PP9svrp_06Oir1YyDWe7ejnTFK5JviW5E2HUfbn5_v93eJGK1fxr336Pot8YEqejbOLwwzTXVCBnBXjVD4dJ4_ERIRdJSfWn46YojLGiWYWZPdqJUCjUpb16hTuYbQOFOx9Ew54O4F5F_Sw1n_bySAS6HE-J_fH-vyU_l9eo-RhRN8CYYQ9TFKmRyKvniM12KgVDPwTiI9wkAh2e48VIrE0KhRFa7uvInMEH8c5_99mw%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.scientificamerican.com

 

I read the abstract:

One of the characteristics of the central nervous system is the lack

of a classical lymphatic drainage system. Although it is now

accepted that the central nervous system undergoes constant

immune surveillance that takes place within the meningeal

compartment

1–3

, the mechanisms governing the entrance and exit

of immune cells from the central nervous system remain poorly

understood

4–6

. In searching for T-cell gateways into and out of the

meninges, we discovered functional lymphatic vessels lining the

dural sinuses. These structures express all of the molecular hall-

marks of lymphatic endothelial cells, are able to carry both fluid

and immune cells from the cerebrospinal fluid, and are connected

to the deep cervical lymph nodes. The unique location of these

vessels may have impeded their discovery to date, thereby contrib-

uting to the long-held concept of the absence of lymphatic vascu-

lature in the central nervous system. The discovery of the central

nervous system lymphatic system may call for a reassessment of

basic assumptions in neuroimmunology and sheds new light on the

aetiology of neuroinflammatory and neurodegenerative diseases

associated with immune system dysfunction.

 

Would you care to explain what any of this has to do with cancer? This article is talking about lymphatic vessels in the CNS, and neuroinflammatory/neurodegenerative diseases. It has nothing to do with cancer at all (even if you include various types of brain cancer, none are considered inflammatory/degenerative).

[elaine567]

my mom was fine one day and then diagnosed with stage IV cancer that had spread. she died 12 weeks later.

 

Yes, but there is no evidence to say that she would have lived any longer had she been unaware of her diagnosis.

Stage 4 cancer means that the cancer has spread to other organs or parts of the body. It may also be called advanced or metastatic cancer.

Depending on the exact type of cancer she had and where it had spread to and the extent of that spread and the physical condition of your mother, 12 weeks may be a short or average or long time for your mother to live after diagnosis.

[amaysngrace]

In hopes of a cure cancer patients pump heavy doses of chemotherapy into their bodies which kill the healthy cells along with the cancerous ones.

 

So when a person gets a late stage diagnosis I'm not really sure if it's just the cancer that kills them at all.

[dichotomy]

As someone said different cancers - different symptoms at different stages.

 

Both of mine were caught early - in one case I noticed symptoms and got it early. Another due to routine checkups because of the first.

 

The emotional and stress responses of a some who is told they have cancer all very by the individual. Like those exposed to any life of death battle (say a war) - your going to see very different affects emotionally and physically.

 

Also sometimes there are even longer term affects of cancer (surgery, radiation, chemo) take a toll on body, health and mind.

Edited May 27, 2017 by dichotomy

[Gr8fuln2020]

Stage 4, or sometimes referrred to as 'incurable cancer' by the medical profession, is often approached with aggressive treatment or nothing at all. At this point, symptoms have likely shown the progression of the disease to a point where treatment will unlikely improve the patient's over-all acute condition in the short term. As per minimizing the cancer growth, that is another issue. Most of the cancer treatments today are debilitating and may or may not adequately kill the cancer cells, but most certainly introduce new, negative symptoms and complications.

 

The chemo, radiation, etc. is toxic to the body's healthy tissue as well, so no wonder a patient's health worstens. After such treatments, efforts have to be made to alleviate symptoms created by the very drugs used to combat the cancer. These drugs actually lower the immune system and its ability to fight. Viscous cycle that too many go through.

 

Having spent a number of years in cancer research, ALL and MLL, apoptosis, more specifically, and very little time in clinical, I must say that our research program in regards to cancer is woefully inefficient. There are some promising diagnostic tools out there, but not enough attention is placed to advance them. PET, MRI, CAT, immuno, etc. have their advantages, but using one or another is not sufficient to provide a more accurate picture. A medly of all and some new technology needs to be used, but insurance companies will not pay for all and our country (USA) is adverse to preventative medicine as a coordinated, basic component of healthcare.

 

This is why some are choosing not to go into treatment and instead live out their lives while their health lasts.

Edited May 28, 2017 by simpleNfit

[Justanaverageguy]

It can be simply that the person was diagnosed late ..... but in many cases it is the mind body connection.

 

Western medicine despite overwhelming evidence which has been around for many years .... still hasn't grasped this. They want all the healing to come "externally" from products, tablets, injections. When in reality much of the healing and indeed the original illness comes internally. From our mind, emotions and our perception of our health.

 

When we have an illness and take a something we believe heals us - we actually do improve and heal. This is well known. When we are told we have stage 4 cancer and gravely ill and about to die .... the body does exactly the opposite. It deteriorates rapidly. The "idea" of having a serious illness and the "idea" of being healed (regardless of whether any real treatment was administered) have profound and measurable effects on the body and health.

 

Western science has lost the whole concept of "healing" and doing whats best for the patient and gotten caught up in being completely neutral and giving grave and pessimistic facts despite it having a profoundly negative effect on patients.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Nothingtolose]

There are certain cancers that don't show any signs until Stage 4. Lung, pancreatic, throat, brain tumors, and gynecological cancers like cervical and ovarian cancers are known for this.

 

Some cancers like thyroid cancer, certain types of breast cancer, prostate cancer in older men, and testicular cancer show signs in the early stages and can be slow growing, so the prognosis is generally good for those.

 

This always gets me thinking...how could we ensure those get diagnosed early enough then? It's not like we go to the doctor every 6 months and say "hey doc, could you please check all of my internal organs, i want a full x-ray of my lungs, liver, kidney, pancreas, etc etc". I mean, at least I don't. I get mammograms done every year because of breast cancer history in the family, but that's about it. I also get my pap done and blood tests every year to check for general things such as cholesterol, diabetes, any lack of vitamins.

 

What's the best way to stay on top of our health to ensure any potential cancers get diagnosed early enough?

[dichotomy]

 

What's the best way to stay on top of our health to ensure any potential cancers get diagnosed early enough?

 

 

Thats a difficult question - pap smears, mammograms are a big part of it - annual physicals. For men - checking prostates during physicals. When you hit a certain age (45-50) you also get colon screenings. These are all big cancer risks depending on age and life style. My first colon screening revealed more polyps than normal, so I got them removed and have to go more frequently for followups.

 

Another way I suppose is to just be "Aware" of your body and seek medical evaluations if something seems off. Thats how I caught my first one "this is not right". Some people - especially men don't like going to the doctor. Some people (in USA) lacked insurance and would avoid healthcare due to costs.

[Gr8fuln2020]

This always gets me thinking...how could we ensure those get diagnosed early enough then? It's not like we go to the doctor every 6 months and say "hey doc, could you please check all of my internal organs, i want a full x-ray of my lungs, liver, kidney, pancreas, etc etc". I mean, at least I don't. I get mammograms done every year because of breast cancer history in the family, but that's about it. I also get my pap done and blood tests every year to check for general things such as cholesterol, diabetes, any lack of vitamins.

 

What's the best way to stay on top of our health to ensure any potential cancers get diagnosed early enough?

 

There is absolutely no way to guarantee that you will detect every cancer in your body. In fact, all human being have cancer cells floating around in their bodies as we speak. The human immune system is remarkable when at it peak, optimal working condition. There are some things I wish we as a society (including scientific community) would do, etc.

 

1. Eat as healthy as you can. The American food supply is deemed one of the 'safest', but by no means healthiest. Big difference. Americans pump more chemicals into their food supply than any other society and many of those chemicals are absolutely toxic, mutagens, but our regulating and corporate interests use them for reasons that have little to nothing to do with helping anyone eat healthy.

 

2. Our insurance companies, b/c of inexplicable cost of health, are not amenable to allowing for adequate, safer cadre of diagnostics to help with prevention. Costs too much.

 

3. I truly believe, in many ways, that after the BILLIONS of dollars a year over many years of research, that we should have more and better forms of cancer diagnostic tests available. There are some that have been cropped up, but you don't hear about them at all. It's strange. With our advances in molecular approaches, I really believe that the scientific community should focus more on molecular/assay/immuno forms of detection for both prevention-detection and treatment. MINIMIZE PUMPING DANGEROUS TOXINS to fighter disease. Unfortunately, some of the methods we use to help us detect cancer, such as x-rays (mammograms) are themselves potentially mutagenic.

 

4. I find it astonishing how we come up with this "when you reach the age of 40...blah blah blah" you should start getting such and such test. Cancer DOES NOT WAIT FOR YOU TO REACH THIS MAGICAL NUMBER before it does it work! Think about it, the reason the age range is given is b/c many cancers are diagnosed, statistically, within those age ranges. No one seems to think about that fact that these cancers began BEFORE you turned 40 or 30 or earlier.

 

5. Going back to #1, eat healthier. Eliminate as many man-made chemicals as you can. Exercise. Contrary to some's crazy idea of the human body (eg. Trump), your body actually gets stronger with exercise, not weaker like a finite battery. Sheesh.

[No_Go]

4. I find it astonishing how we come up with this "when you reach the age of 40...blah blah blah" you should start getting such and such test. Cancer DOES NOT WAIT FOR YOU TO REACH THIS MAGICAL NUMBER before it does it work! Think about it, the reason the age range is given is b/c many cancers are diagnosed, statistically, within those age ranges. No one seems to think about that fact that these cancers began BEFORE you turned 40 or 30 or earlier.

 

Before a certain age the risk associated with the test is larger than the benefit.

 

E.g as you mentioned - the mammograms can be mutagenic, and in younger women the tissues are too dense to detect anything with a mammogram anyway.

 

There is usually a lot of data/research behind the recommended guidelines of cancer screens. Obviously it is statistics and one can be an outliar but that doesn't make the reasoning faulty.

 

IMO eating healthy, exercising etc is great but will not save you from cancer - environment is just a small part of it. People feel empowered to think they can control their fate but in the end... a lot of it is just genetics.

[Gr8fuln2020]

Before a certain age the risk associated with the test is larger than the benefit.

 

E.g as you mentioned - the mammograms can be mutagenic, and in younger women the tissues are too dense to detect anything with a mammogram anyway.

 

There is usually a lot of data/research behind the recommended guidelines of cancer screens. Obviously it is statistics and one can be an outliar but that doesn't make the reasoning faulty.

 

IMO eating healthy, exercising etc is great but will not save you from cancer - environment is just a small part of it. People feel empowered to think they can control their fate but in the end... a lot of it is just genetics.

 

No_Go,

 

I understand all that. The information you've shared is common knowledge. My issue goes beyond the current guidelines and what and how you can improve your chances of preventing cancer.

 

1. Nothing will 'save' you from cancer, but eating healthier and exercising will certainly help. Genetics aside, our environmental exposure makes a HUGE difference, albeit, not a guarantee.

 

2. I certainly understand the mammogram and density of breast tissue. I mention the age factor not b/c it is not based on research, some standard of measure, rather, the age recommendations have placed too many people in jeopardy. This is, for me, directly related to my earlier post regarding the slow progress of safe® diagnostic tools. Having been in research for a number of years, we do not spend enough time in diagnostics to add to a preventative-oriented form of medicine.

[dichotomy]

One of the things that angered me (among MANY) when I got cancer the first time is that I was a young very healthy man. Salads, chicken breast, vitamins, running, weight lifting, all of that...I was a specimen and I was young.

 

We all know certain cancers are influenced by habits and toxic exposures, and some are not. There are some cancers that have no known cause.