Opposite gender friendships?

[Shanex]

This topic comes and go within this section of LS.

 

I see people, often younger people wondering how to make new friends here, or posting because they are losing friends past a certain age. The latter is an easy one and is often answered along the lines that as many of us reach real adulthood hence getting a job, a place and for some a life partner, people separate from each other. As for the former, making new friends is relatively easy in your teens to the late 20s when we are for many partying, drinking, enjoying a few puff on a blunt (or sports and saner activities) etc. People who live such lifestyle past 30 are rare, it still happens just not on the daily basis as during our wild youth.

 

However, to talk about me for a bit, I've had many girl friends before, not that long ago. Many of whom followed the next phase of their lives I've described above, some i was borderline flirting with yet maintaining some boundaries (not even kisses) but despite being friends for some years, it seems that likewise in some relationships maybe we had run our course and the friendship faded over time. It's not exactly true of my male friends, some who've followed me more or less regularily since I was a toddler, there were ups and downs but since we have known each other among my pals for over 20 years, it's more difficult to just leave them behind. Too many great memories, and these are people I've never stabbed in the back, figuratively or bad mouthed in any way.

 

So despite some girlfriends I've had over the years and of course the more I was into a serious relationship the more I was unintentionally distancing myself from them and girl friends, I'm not able to stay friends with an ex anyway, and never really wanted too, if I had been in a marriage and children would have been involved, I'd have had a duty so to speak to keep contact as you can't close the door in this case but it has yet to happen to me.

 

So there goes my question: is it easier for a single man or woman past, say 35 to maintain friendship with the opposite gender (no hubby, wife = no jealousy) or is it easier while you are married or commited because you have in your circles plenty of other couples?

[preraph]

I think for most people once they're married, it's a real closed circle of only befriending couples and not getting too intimate with them.

 

When I was young, I dated (using the term loosely) within mostly the same big circle of music oriented people, so there were some very tangled vines. But at the same time because there was this other bond, it tended to survive after the affair was over. I mean, I guess I was lucky. I didn't think much about it at the time. But the guys I saw often were acquaintances -- or they would be once I introduced them. I mean, there were only two small incidents of someone interjecting. One was a mysterious episode when the friend of a guy I worked with gave my new love a talking to and I didn't think it made sense at the time and they were both vague what it was about. The friend was married and later came after me after his divorce, but I still don't know if that is what it was about or if it was about this friend of his who I was also friends with to some extent trying to protect me.

 

Then there was one time a guy I was dating not exclusively asked me why I'd left my car and apartment when I went home for Christmas to his bandmate, who I'd set him up with when he needed a guitarist. The guitarist was a complicated love of mine but I had moved on and we were still friends but not at all having sex nor was he wanting to.

 

Otherwise, most of the guys I dated in my 20s were all on friendly terms at one level or another and so there was no real issue staying friendly, although there were times I badly wished they weren't so intertwined in my life so I could avoid them and get over them.

 

Even in my 30s, things began to slow down and I met loads of people but most were not from my town and so making a lasting friend was rare. It is hard to make friends past a certain age. I was still going out and everything until I was 40. In my 30s, slowly, the circle of friends came around less and less. It would get to where if i happened to see them out would be the extent of the friendship. I mean, I'm sure it was the normal stuff, getting married or having a family or moving away. The core of my old crowd that people centered around moved to California, and that was like the center of the wheel and there was a noticeable lull after that. Nothing to hold the crowd together. Yes, I'd see them occasionally, but you can't really be close if you live far away.

[Mumbles]

It is hard to make friends past a certain age.

 

We all say this. I've certainly said it more than once and fully subscribe that it certainly seems to be the case.

 

But why?

 

Is it just human nature that once we mature we separate out and live much more protected lives (protected as in, not open)?

 

 

The core of my old crowd that people centered around moved to California, and that was like the center of the wheel and there was a noticeable lull after that.

 

I know this feeling and this observation. For 10 years, in my early adulthood I mixed, met and lived an adventurous life with my 'buddies' in the armed services. The core group, which I was definitely on the inside of along with perhaps a dozen others were tight. We might have the occasional falling out over women or something else, but this usually worked itself out over time.

 

By the end of this time, after entering civilian life, girls, guns, money, fast cars and drinking had given way to wives, children, responsibility and jobs across the country and the group just evaporated into thin air. Sofar as I know, from (very) occasionally bumping into my old compadres none of the old team is in any sort of regular contact.

 

Now, the above is not a lament for the good old days, its an observation, one I've made many times over the intervening decades. The 'old' group never got replaced ... for pretty much any of us. We went our separate ways, live and enjoy our lives certainly, but I think its safe to say, have relatively solitary lives.

 

Everyone seems to nod their head when I bring this up with current friends. The tight friendships of youth seem to be replaced with acquaintances. Still friends, but almost at arms length.

 

So - that for the aging and friendships bit. On to the OP. Long term relationships with people of the opposite gender.

 

I know only very few cases of truly long term friendships between men and women, where family ties, marriage, children or some other link is not present. Even back in the day, I don't remember this being the case - though I would have been too young then to be able to contemplate the real meaning of 'long term'.

 

Certainly for mine, and especially in my youth, I mingled as part of a flexible crew of girls with faces constantly changing. I only dated one of these girls, the others were buddies and we had some great times dancing and drinking and going on adventures together.

 

However, I moved city, got married (and later divorced) and those old days just seem to be gone forever. I now have male friends, and female friends, but they are not a 'crew'. They are mixed singles and couples, but the faces come and go, as people always do, yet, ultimately, and even though I'm married for the second time and so far so good I feel I lead a more solitary life than when I was young.

 

The blood, sweat and tears that builds shared history and close bonds just aren't part of my life any more ... again, not a lament, more an observation.

[preraph]

You know, Mumbles, I guess it's different for everyone why they drift away. For me, my social life started going downhill when I had the best job of my life and was no longer working record retail where I met tons and tons of people and worked with tons of people and they were my people. Then I moved up and was in a slightly more corporate atmosphere and I didn't make any lasting friends there. The only one I keep up with was already an ex when I started working there. So my life went from local to meeting people from all over the world and in a very exciting atmosphere of music artists, but only a few became friends and none of them lived where I lived.

 

But as I said above, really, the core of my crowd moved away, the core that kept me motivated to go out to local gigs and with whom I was emotionally involved. So that's what happened to me. Then I lost a friend who got married, an old friend from another state. She just abandoned me when she got married to a crazy jealous guy and had kids, never to be seen again. I lost one old friend because she porked the guy I was in love with. I lost one friend because he wanted to try being together as he was going through divorce and that ruined our friendship pretty much. He couldn't go back to friends. I lost one male friend because he stole my ex that I worked with for 10 years wife from him, though that was a blessing in disguise since decades later she stole that guy's identity as well as their son's and landed in prison. He told me when she got pregnant that he'd never be able to talk to me again (she was crazy jealous and just crazy in general, really nuts). I told him he was crazy for marrying that psycho, and I was right. 30 years later, he's asked the ex I worked with about me. I don't think so.

 

One of my exes I remained friends with is one who went to California and we both made some efforts to sort of get back together maybe 10 years ago when he got sober but then he relapsed and doesn't want to talk to anyone he knows will tell him he needs to quit.

 

And then more recently, I lost a running buddy because she decided to be a couple with this guy she's known for decades who had been her fwb off and on. Now she's with him, she won't make time for anyone else but family.

 

My best friend is still with me emotionally but has a family and they keep her run ragged so I rarely see her.

 

My other friends are long distance. And oh, I let one more go recently for a myriad of reasons but she was also long distance. She has mental problems and has no boundaries left and is destructive at this point.

 

So we make friends when we're young and pursue interests and get out and go a lot. I mean I was out at gigs most nights of my young life.

Working in what you love helps those bonds last.

 

But life happens.

 

I know you miss your old crew. I miss mine too. I was telling someone the other day I only see what's left of our old gang at funerals (we're getting old and really it's amazing any of us made it this far!)

[RecentChange]

I am.married, and I have male "acquaintances".

 

My male FRIENDS are ones I have known since college or before (a small handful that have survived the years).

 

For me, there is just always a bit of sexual tension, or something else (including jealousy) that prevents me from developing male friendships at this point in life.

 

And I LIKE having male friends, so I admit it's a bit of a bummer

[Shanex]

Some good replies from people with different lives experiences, I like it.

 

RecentChange, yes this is the heart of the issue. It's definitely great to be happily married, no doubt and I never really say otherwise despite my lack of experience or the things I know from people around my friends/acquantainces in the situation.

 

I too like(d) to have women friends, that you lose to jealous husbands and boyfriends most of the time. You can't continue the ambiguity to have some come over to your place even if it's only watching a movie with some drinks while their BF or husband is home alone, it doesn't make much sense. Sure, everybody's free to do whatever he wants but boundaries have to be respected in a sane steady marriage. Not going to wander about swingers here though...

 

While preraph friends moved away for various reasons this is not true of me, well some have, but a good chunk are still around, not too far. I eventually attended a party the other week with people I hadn't seen in years and were genuinely happy to see me again, and vice versa. I don't feel the need to party all the time anymore as I wrote in the OP, but sometimes it's good for the soul. Either with only one fella or with numerous others.

 

Mumbles except for the married part I can relate the most with, I have no idea what life will be like later on, married or not, but it's pretty much the fate of most guys even married ones to live a more solitary life, no lament I agree. It is what it is.

[preraph]

I think you have to try to incorporate a same-sex friend into being a friend with your spouse so they know why you like the person and either can trust them or can't trust them. That's your only hope. Keeping them separate isn't going to work, but if you bring them around and your spouse or SO gets used to them and even likes them, or at least finds them laughably harmless, then you can retain your friend.

[jjgitties]

I don't get the question? Are you asking is it possible for a male to be "just friends" with a woman?

 

Of course it is possible. Just because the other person has a vagina does not automatically mean you can't just be good friends and you absolutaly have to.. "have to!" try to stick it in her.

 

I have a very very good female friend who is quite attractive. But we are just friends and have been friends for over 20 years. We call ourselves the sibling we never had. (Both of us are only children.) Its actually really good and refreshing to have a close friend of the opposite gender. The conversation is different than the stupid stuff you wind up taking about with your close male friends. I think if we had had sex at some point together, there would be too much weirdness, and we probably would not be close friends.

[Shanex]

I don't get the question? Are you asking is it possible for a male to be "just friends" with a woman?

 

It was a broad question and maybe poorly worded if you didn't get it but not asking if men and women can be friends as we know it usually is entirely possible, though that is depending on your age, marital status and so forth as we are discussing here.

 

Of course it is possible. Just because the other person has a vagina does not automatically mean you can't just be good friends and you absolutaly have to.. "have to!" try to stick it in her.

 

Ah, no sure. Because in this case the friendship is doomed either way. You can't secretly hope for sticking your willy inside a woman while trying to stay friend with her, or the other way round. It simply can't work in the long run, it's causing harm to ourselves.

 

As I said, we may have secret sexual thoughts about our friends of the opposite gender when we are young and single, but when we settle with a life partner, it's much more difficult.. think of the flirting stuff that can no longer exist, and jealousy.

[jjgitties]

Ah, no sure. Because in this case the friendship is doomed either way. You can't secretly hope for sticking your willy inside a woman while trying to stay friend with her, or the other way round. It simply can't work in the long run, it's causing harm to ourselves.

 

As I said, we may have secret sexual thoughts about our friends of the opposite gender when we are young and single, but when we settle with a life partner, it's much more difficult.. think of the flirting stuff that can no longer exist, and jealousy.

 

I think its possible. I think it just requires someone to respect and like the other person for the friend that they are and the friendship that they provide if their life. (Not focusing and obsessing so much on their genitalia. :-) )

 

If anything, I think I would be much more worried about losing a close friend over a hour or so of sex that may most probably lead to nothing but confusion about the state of friendship and the relationship. (Lets face it, if is was true love at first sight, you two would not be just friends).

 

The thing about a friendship is that it hasn't exposed the other person you are friends with to the nastier parts of your psyche and personality. If they get into a relationship with you, there is a chance when they see the ugly parts of your personality it will destroy the friendship. I don't know.

 

(btw.. my close female friend.. whom I do find attractive.. I would never in a million years get into a relationship with her. She is a amazing great friend but when it comes to relationships and men she is a bit nuts.)

[Mumbles]

You know, Mumbles, I guess it's different for everyone why they drift away. For me, my social life started going downhill when I had the best job of my life and was no longer working record retail where I met tons and tons of people and worked with tons of people and they were my people. Then I moved up and was in a slightly more corporate atmosphere and I didn't make any lasting friends there. The only one I keep up with was already an ex when I started working there. So my life went from local to meeting people from all over the world and in a very exciting atmosphere of music artists, but only a few became friends and none of them lived where I lived.

 

Maybe this is the core of it.

 

We physically move and are a lot more mobile.

 

But something fundamental seems to change as well. Responses on this thread, and also my observation from similar discussions with my circle irl seem to indicate that the arrival of 'family', by way of life partner and usually children (but not always) spells the end of things.

 

The reason I ponder it in this way is that a handful of my original crew didn't move city as I did straight away all at the same exact time. Some of us did, a good proportion, within 12-18 months of each other - and its interesting for me to note that we were all within about 2-3 years of each other in age.

 

Yet, despite a number 'staying behind', the crew didn't function as it had previously. I remember bumping into, by chance and via business, a couple of the old faces not too many years after we all went our way and asking after the others - people just didn't really know ... which led me to understand that once the group largely dispersed, even the remaining guys ended up going their own way.

 

But as I said above, really, the core of my crowd moved away, the core that kept me motivated to go out to local gigs and with whom I was emotionally involved. So that's what happened to me.

 

I've always suspected that its the building of direct shared history that binds people together. As our life focus changes, there is less time, or at least less energy, focused upon spending the required consistent time with new faces to build a similar experience.

 

 

I lost one old friend because she porked the guy I was in love with.

 

The crazy thing is - the above sorts of shenanigans go on pretty much all the time in a sexually mature group. It happened to me and I observed this many times to other guys as well over the course we were a tight friendship group. Yet, even sexual indiscretion was usually 'gotten over' given some time to work it through and for the wounds to heal. The friendship of our group was never really broken by this behaviour, though it would get a mighty good shaking :)

[Mumbles]

I am.married, and I have male "acquaintances".

 

My male FRIENDS are ones I have known since college or before (a small handful that have survived the years).

 

Thats interesting. I'm thinking now of one friend I have locally to me who I see reasonably often. He has never moved in his life and lives within 20km or so of where he grew up and went to school/etc. We're in a big city and he's not at all without life experience, but his base has never really moved.

 

He still has close friends who he went to school with, 30 years ago. He, and they, make the time for each other to interact often and though their professional and romantic lives have all shot off in different directions, none have moved their base and all live within a small circle from each other.

 

For me, there is just always a bit of sexual tension, or something else (including jealousy) that prevents me from developing male friendships at this point in life.

 

And I LIKE having male friends, so I admit it's a bit of a bummer

 

Yes, I like having female friends too. I find the different life perspective that girls have compared to boys really interesting and that input really helps to balance my life view when I ponder some of the 'big stuff'.

 

The OP's postulation is - do these male/female friendships last? In my experience, no, they don't seem to, by and large.

 

I get jjgitties question: why not? Just because my lady friends have a vagina, why on earth can't a long standing friendship last, just as it might with another human carrying a penis?

 

Honestly, my logical brain doesn't have an answer for that. Observationally all I can say is that they don't seem to.

 

I agree with the sexual tension thing. It seems to be a latent force of nature between the sexes, even when none of the parties are overtly pursuing the others.

[Mumbles]

You can't continue the ambiguity to have some come over to your place even if it's only watching a movie with some drinks while their BF or husband is home alone, it doesn't make much sense. Sure, everybody's free to do whatever he wants but boundaries have to be respected in a sane steady marriage. Not going to wander about swingers here though...

 

I wonder if the nub of it all is sexually based? I mean, in our enlightened egalitarian times and speaking with politically correct tones, there really shouldn't be any reason why long term and close relationships between men and women are not evenly distributed - so, looking at population statistics, an average woman might have 10 male and 10 female friends who are long standing (10 years+) and close.

 

Yet, we observe, in reality, that this is rarely the case. Thus the OP. Why?

 

Why is it that we feel a social (or other?) pressure whereby an attached woman, for example, wouldn't just pop over to a male friends house and watch a movie together? Hell even spend the night (in separate beds)? We all used to do this I'm sure and maybe even still do, with our same sex friends.

 

We all used to do this to some degree when we were quite young, I mean perhaps early or middle teens, and it dies away quite quickly with the coming of sexual maturity. Thus the wondering? Is it just a social given that nature will take its course? Or at least it will often enough to worry those with a vested interest?

[Mumbles]

I think you have to try to incorporate a same-sex friend into being a friend with your spouse so they know why you like the person and either can trust them or can't trust them. That's your only hope. Keeping them separate isn't going to work, but if you bring them around and your spouse or SO gets used to them and even likes them, or at least finds them laughably harmless, then you can retain your friend.

 

I think this sounds sensible, but I also think its a mental thought exercise that rarely seems to survive in the real world.

 

By way of example, and using Shanex' example of watching a movie. I don't know that I can put my hand on my heart and honestly pull a single example of where a female partner would allow or be comfortable with her man going over to another womans apartment to watch a movie for the evening, if it were only going to be those two together. They might mingle and be mutual friends with the woman involved and might, through shared history, trust both her man and the other woman with everything ... except this ....

 

And yet, if the male partner was doing the same, but going to his male buddies house for the movie, it wouldn't likely even cause a murmur.

 

It goes both ways of course, though perhaps even more 'distrust' (for want of a better word) if the roles were reversed.