How much of it is our own mind making it up?..

[freengreen]

I have never experienced/ understood how ones own mind can play on oneself until the A happened to me. I am here to write about something which happened even before my A started, this did involve another married man but..here it goes..

 

5 yrs earlier, I was taken in by a company for as a part of a team for a new project, well the other 7 of them were men...few married, few single. We were a team and a fun team , thats that.

 

Then I noticed that one of them who was married and his wife pregnant at that time started being emotionally close to me. I didnt understand why but I wasnt comfortable. Not comfortable to a point where I never used to meet him alone. I always talked to him ONLY if it was team talk. But he kept trying, he talked all sorts of stuff, I am usually not a kind of person who takes an ego boost out of feelings from other people, so I used to cut him off A LOT. Then I heard the news of his new son. So, I took time to shop and gave the baby and the mother few gifts (not in person, I gave it to him). The project finished well in 9 months, we had a small party and in that party he just comes close and hugs me. I did not see that coming but I made it short because I didnt want to create a scene. Then I moved to another city, another job. The end on my side. I was actually relieved.

 

Well, apparently it wasnt the end on the other side...he starts to stalk me, call me, emails everywhere. I change numbers but we had mutual friend, so he found out.. For 3 yrs random messaging all sorts of stuff, not creepy but begging me to talk to him. I did not understand why he was doing it!!!. It was 9 months of office work and one unforeseen hug!...He said stuff like ' You are the woman I was looking for all my life, you dont have to spare a lot of time but I just want to be connected to you!'...I really didnt know what came upon him and out of where???. I never replied all 4 years. Then I change countries.

 

Then my actual EA starts...this ones a new MM...this man, he is smooth and sneaky. I had to be an ace in foolery. Lasted 4 months..5 months NC..resume 4 months and ended. Rips me off to pieces. I could not see my husband n the eye. I cried for MM, then for doing all of this and then cried on what I did to my husband. Loads of tears and agony...9 months. I feel a bit ok now. I want to be like old self, hope someday I will.

 

Meanwhile, I came out of all social media, changed all numbers, blocks set. This first guy finds me on Linkedin ( I know) and then messages me there 'please dont kill me like this, you are heartless with your silence'. This time I replied him.

 

May be because I saw him going through the pain I went thru when my exMM ghosted me. It wasnt the same, I never lured him into anything but still..... after 5 years..I said ' Please dont do this to yourself, I was and am never interested to take anything further with you, you are a good man and all the best. I will block you here but I hope you got your answer. Takecare'. I blocked him.

 

Why I write all this?

Last week one of my mutual friend was talking to me and I told about this first guy and he said that he was known to be a player. He said that he lost this time with me. I was confused because I actually was never in the game!. I dont knowingly play so I never was in the game! then who did he lose to?....may be his own self. His own fantasy. A player loses a game even thou he was the only one on the court....

 

What he made up about me in his mind is not real. I know it....what I also know is that what I made my exMM to be in my mind is also not true.

 

At the end of it that man has accused me few times of tearing his soul apart with my silence and I here think I have been torn apart by my exMM the same way......it all bundled up in last two weeks(the person emailing, friend telling he was a player etc). I am overwhelmed by that person accusing me, overwhelmed on the whole A and mostly hurt by what I have done to my husband who loves me....its been too much. I am just laying low. I cant fight this storm. I am just waiting for it to calm down in my head.

 

I endured so many tough times over years, they all were a strain but I was still strong because me and my mind were on the same side. Affair twists your own mind against you. You are left with no rational thinking. The destructive potential of an affair is just more than you can ever imagine.

 

Do you think you gave your OM/OW the cape that they dint deserve?

Edited June 5, 2017 by freengreen

[MidnightBlue1980]

 

Do you think you gave your OM/OW the cape that they dint deserve?

 

Yes and no, I see your point. On one hand, xmm was very upfront in telling me that he had been looking for an affair for years, that he had no intention of getting divorced, that he was looking for something permanent on the side of his marriage. I heard him lie to his wife in front of me, I saw his true colors and chose to believe that I was the exception to the rule and that I could control the situation. Both untrue. I quickly went down the rabbit hole, taking a grain of sand and making it a beach.

 

So he was a bad guy - but he never pretended to be a good guy. I chose to rewrite the story and ignored what was right in front of my face. So is it really his fault? If you put your hand on a hot pan and get burned, you can't really blame the pan for being hot, right?

 

On the flip side, there is a certain human responsibility towards other people, not to just use people when you clearly see you have the power over the situation. But it seems like this is not usually the case so you need to protect yourself from being used - no one else will do it for you.

[FoundMyStrength]

To this day, 10 months later, I still don't know if my xMM was a good guy or a bad guy. I know he was selfish. I know he'd been unhappy for a long time. But he also seemed to genuinely like me and care for me. I didn't get the sense he was lying. The most accurate term would be that he seemed conflicted.

 

There's a concept in philosophy called the banality of evil. It suggests that evil isn't some foreign thing, that all humans are capable of it under the right circumstances. That evil is more commonplace than we think. I think that's what my affair was like. Neither xMM not myself are evil. But we used our very human ways of justifying and continuing on with an affair even though we both knew it was wrong and hurtful. We excused it as "true love" and "fate" and "bad timing."

 

I don't think xMM deceived me. I think we deceived each other AND ourselves. I sat on a couch and talked with him about my moral compass, but as we got closer and closer to the end of our work assignment, all those concerns flew out the window. I deceived myself into thinking my impending loss and my strong feelings justified saying ILY to another woman's husband. I'm not evil, but I am very very human. So was he.

[MidnightBlue1980]

To this day, 10 months later, I still don't know if my xMM was a good guy or a bad guy. I know he was selfish. I know he'd been unhappy for a long time. But he also seemed to genuinely like me and care for me. I didn't get the sense he was lying. The most accurate term would be that he seemed conflicted.

 

There's a concept in philosophy called the banality of evil. It suggests that evil isn't some foreign thing, that all humans are capable of it under the right circumstances. That evil is more commonplace than we think. I think that's what my affair was like. Neither xMM not myself are evil. But we used our very human ways of justifying and continuing on with an affair even though we both knew it was wrong and hurtful. We excused it as "true love" and "fate" and "bad timing."

 

I don't think xMM deceived me. I think we deceived each other AND ourselves. I sat on a couch and talked with him about my moral compass, but as we got closer and closer to the end of our work assignment, all those concerns flew out the window. I deceived myself into thinking my impending loss and my strong feelings justified saying ILY to another woman's husband. I'm not evil, but I am very very human. So was he.

 

I've come to realize that men view women in two categories - their wives and everyone else. (ignoring family here). For the everyone else category, they will treat you exactly as you demand to be treated. If you allow them to not respect you, they will not respect you and take what you offer. Just as women are weak with words of love, men are weak with sexual things, particularly if they are not getting it at home. That doesn't make them bad people, it just makes them men, they are just different from us. We have to be smarter and self aware.

 

Now, there are some bad people - both genders. For me, I think xmm was a bad person, or maybe I should say a cold, unfeeling person, sort of a sociopath. I won't t/j with my story, it's all there.

 

But I've had this conversation with my husband and as time passes, I realize what a valuable learning experience this all was for me. I'm so much wiser now.

[freengreen]

Thank you for the answers guys .

 

@ Midnight ... Glad you posted, your posts are always spot on!..yes, no one else will do it for me. I always go from ' you did this to me' and then go ' i did this to myself'.. The first might be true par se but at the end of the day, I failed to see... I buried myself in the fantasy. My bad. Cant beleive my 8 month affair is still taking its toll... after 9 months NC...

 

@FoundMyStrength... oh how you post things that I could have posted easily!. Most of your posts ring a bell to me, really. Yes, like you I still dont know if my ex MM was a bad guy or a player. While I say he has made me feel terrible, I still contemplate if its me or him. But he used me, I can see it right away , yet again I let him to. Its astonishing to me that although few men tried this on me who were better that ex MM in some way, I never cared. This one, I just welcomed everything myself.

 

Like Midnight, I think I can see how everything creeps in now..

Edited June 6, 2017 by freengreen

[jenkins95]

Very interesting thoughts guys.

 

I often wonder what my xOW thought of me after the affair. I think it's probably one of two extremes, either she thinks I was a complete player and that everything I said was lies and manipulation just to get as much sex as I could. Or, I was a lost, highly conflicted, confused individual in the same way that FMS describes, who was selfish and said many things that he shouldn't have said (ILY), but that nevertheless, he meant them and they weren't lies.

 

I don't know what’s better for her to believe in terms of moving on, but it is definitely the second option that applies to me. I didn’t tell her big lies or future fake, but of course, the whole thing was one big lie – an implicit lie that what we were doing in our exclusive bubble was ok. Midnight often says that I am an exception amongst MM - perhaps so, but we do occassionally see other MM posters who I relate to on here.

 

The banality of evil concept really strikes a chord with me – thanks for that FMS. My OW and I allowed evil to happen because, from the outset, it was GUARANTEED that people would get hurt. If we'd taken a step back to analyse everything logically, we would have seen it as clear as day because it was obvious and we are intelligent adults. But we didn't! We ignored and pushed away the red flags and uncomfortable thoughts in order to indulge ourselves. We validated each other, we were selfish. We took a "it will all be ok", "no one needs to get hurt", "we're not really doing anything wrong", "we deserve this" stance. We were both happy to explore the depths of our connection while lying to and cheating on others - stringing them along in their ignorance and using them for support, while we got our excitement with each other. It was banal evil - banal in the sense that we didn't set out to hurt anyone. But evil nevertheless because we chose to turn a blind eye to and deny the massive injustice we were committing and the inevitable fall out ahead in order to carry on our fantasy.

 

Re-reading this makes me realise how completely lame the phrase "we didn't set out to hurt anyone" and its variations actually are. Of course we didn't deliberately set out to hurt anyone. That would make us psychopaths. Very few people actually set out to hurt anyone. But that simply doesn't cut it. As adults, we not only have to not "mean" to hurt anyone, we have to behave appropriately and put boundaries in place to ensure that we don't ACTUALLY hurt anyone. That inconvenience often gets swept aside in the intensity and addiction of an affair - it becomes justified in our minds. I could drive my car at 100mph down a busy street because I enjoyed the feeling of speed. If I hit someone, the phrase “I didn’t mean to hurt anyone” would carry very little weight in a courtroom.

 

Sorry, little bit off topic, but wanted you to know that your posts have made me think. Thank you!

 

Keep the posts coming guys! Good luck

Edited June 6, 2017 by jenkins95

[freengreen]

Jenkins .. always glad to hear from you, an MMs perspective and honesty, we havnt got many MMs here, not sure why but getting replies from them makes me stay on the line and not lean towards one side.

 

Yes, I do not kniw why my ex MM did what he did.. if he was as lost as me or if he knew that I was lost and took me for a ride... but as you and other posters said.. I signed up for whatever ride it was. I think I am more disappointed that I am left in this vague area where I dont know if I did this to me or he did it to me... Sometimes, I am happy doing my own thing and suddenly this pops up and I go haywire angry... any tips to combat it?? Jenkins? anyone?

Edited June 6, 2017 by freengreen
mis spelt profile name :)

[Vivir]

Wow, there are so many elements to the posts you all have written here that I have written in my journal over the last two years... I literally wrote about my personal experience with the banality of evil during the A just a few days ago...

 

I am coming to terms with the fact that I am often quite naive and behave as a foolish person. I often "take a grain of sand and turn it into a beach." Usually with the opposite sex... when I am looking for more and they aren't. Also, I liken them in a way that makes them better than they actually are - they are put on the pedestal and I crouch underneath it... It is sad and it causes me great amounts of grief when reality comes a-knockin'.

 

In the beginning of the A, I, too, thought we could comfort each other and no one would get hurt. I acted as if his W didn't exist, also like the M wasn't real since they had no children together. I was selfish, then I rationalized, and then I became indignantly selfish and then bitter... and then there was resentment.

 

In the beginning, we talked about it briefly, and I assumed he was trying to divorce. Apparently, he changed his mind for whatever reason very early in the A. I distinctly remember him saying, "It's cheaper to keep her."

 

I know I was on one page and xMM was on another. And it was possible we had always been on different pages. And as naive and foolish as I have been in what I had hoped would become romantic relationships, I felt myself trying not to be as the A dragged on. I talked waaaayyyy too much, and he talked very little. He, at any time, could've set me straight. I honestly believe that his lack of discussion was him playing things close to the vest. If I thought something about him, his M, or our A, and wanted clarity, he would basically offer little to none in terms of information as a way of not giving away his hand. He was happy to take and take until my slow awakening caused our A to end.

 

I can't blame him. I vacillate between blaming him and cursing his name (he is evil!) to believing he was just being human and foolish and thoughtless just like I was (he is not evil). I don't know if he was a player or not, if he really cared or not. But I know I feel utter despair when my friends tell me I was played, because my most honest feeling is that I believed him not to be this evil, using thing. Because, although I would've jumped at the chance for a "real" relationship with him, I did use him, too. I feel a great deal of shame for how stupidly I have behaved and for all that I believed, and I feel that people can see it on my face and laugh at me behind my back.

 

I know I filled in a lot of blanks with whatever-in-the-h3ll I could think of at the time (usually negative), and he would not correct me. I was trying to plant myself in reality, and he had seemed to be content to let me live my whole life in the fantasy. I agree (with MidnightBlue?) that people will treat you how you show them to treat you. I allowed this, and then I changed my mind. And he and I arrived at an impasse.

 

At this point, I am actively trying not to make up loaves out of crumbs in my head. But I've done this for so long, I don't really know what I am doing...

Edited June 9, 2017 by Vivir
further explanation

[freengreen]

Wow, there are so many elements to the posts you all have written here that I have written in my journal over the last two years... I literally wrote about my personal experience with the banality of evil during the A just a few days ago...

 

I am coming to terms with the fact that I am often quite naive and behave as a foolish person. I often "take a grain of sand and turn it into a beach." Usually with the opposite sex... when I am looking for more and they aren't. It is sad and it causes me great amounts of grief when reality comes a-knockin'.

 

In the beginning of the A, I, too, thought we could comfort each other and no one would get hurt. I acted as if his W didn't exist, also like the M wasn't real since they had no children together. I was selfish, then I rationalized, and then I became indignantly selfish and then bitter... and then there was resentment.

 

In the beginning, we talked about it briefly, and I assumed he was trying to divorce. Apparently, he changed his mind for whatever reason very early in the A. I distinctly remember him saying, "It's cheaper to keep her."

 

I know I was on one page and xMM was on another. And it was possible we had always been on different pages. And as naive and foolish as I have been in what I had hoped would become romantic relationships, I felt myself trying not to be as the A dragged on. I talked waaaayyyy too much, and he talked very little. He, at any time, could've set me straight. I honestly believe that his lack of discussion was him playing things close to the vest. If I thought something about him, his M, or our A, and wanted clarity, he would basically offer little to none in terms of information as a way of not giving away his hand. He was happy to take and take until my slow awakening caused our A to end. [1]

 

I can't blame him. I vacillate between blaming him and cursing his name (he is evil!) to believing he was just being human and foolish and thoughtless just like I was (he is not evil). I don't know if he was a player or not, if he really cared or not. But I know I feel utter despair when my friends tell me I was played, because my most honest feeling is that I believed him not to be this evil, using thing. Because, although I would've jumped at the chance for a "real" relationship with him, I did use him, too. I feel a great deal of shame for how stupidly I have behaved and for all that I believed, and I feel that people can see it on my face and laugh at me behind my back. [2]

 

I know I filled in a lot of blanks with whatever-in-the-h3ll I could think of at the time (usually negative), and he would not correct me. I was trying to plant myself in reality, and he had seemed to be content to let me live my whole life in the fantasy. I agree (with MidnightBlue?) that people will treat you how you show them to treat you. I allowed this, and then I changed my mind. And he and I arrived at an impasse.

 

At this point, I am actively trying not to make up loaves out of crumbs in my head. But I've done this for so long, I don't really know what I am doing...

 

oh vivir!

 

There are very few people here whom I can so relate its scary...you are one of them (foundmy strength and Hadmeoverabarrel are too)...how can our stories be this same is what I wonder.. like its the same person we dealt with...

 

Bolded part [1]... same story me too... I am an introvert by nature but boy I texted a storm and he replied in 3-4 word sentences..his reasoning 'not very chatty'....he has 700 friends fb, going out and partying every weekend and very active 3 twitter accounts....well, he might as well meant 'not very chatty, to you'...

 

Bolded part [2]... same confusion.. just that I didn't use him much as much he did, I can literally show receipts and I feel very sleazy writing this (gosh I tune myself into this cheap mindset out of anger or annoyance..cringe)

 

Like you, I am moving, slow but steady...I can see so many of us here in a better place in few months. Lets make it!

[Chica80]

oh vivir!

 

There are very few people here whom I can so relate its scary...you are one of them (foundmy strength and Hadmeoverabarrel are too)...how can our stories be this same is what I wonder.. like its the same person we dealt with...

 

Bolded part [1]... same story me too... I am an introvert by nature but boy I texted a storm and he replied in 3-4 word sentences..his reasoning 'not very chatty'....he has 700 friends fb, going out and partying every weekend and very active 3 twitter accounts....well, he might as well meant 'not very chatty, to you'...

 

Bolded part [2]... same confusion.. just that I didn't use him much as much he did, I can literally show receipts and I feel very sleazy writing this (gosh I tune myself into this cheap mindset out of anger or annoyance..cringe)

 

Like you, I am moving, slow but steady...I can see so many of us here in a better place in few months. Lets make it!

 

Yup....relate to all of this.....me talking....seeking wanting clarity....and the answers only he truly knows.

 

I can believe what I want and think what I want. Is it the truth? Don't know but finally I have decided that whatever truth I need to believe to move forward is the truth it's going to be.

 

There's a concept for it but I can't remember what it's called right now.

[freengreen]

Yup....relate to all of this.....me talking....seeking wanting clarity....and the answers only he truly knows.

 

I can believe what I want and think what I want. Is it the truth? Don't know but finally I have decided that whatever truth I need to believe to move forward is the truth it's going to be.

 

There's a concept for it but I can't remember what it's called right now.

Sunshine!.. ...so you relate too!.. and you fight it too .

 

Ethical relativity or something.. should be the concept. I can see you in pain while I am reading your posts( here and in your own thread).. its like you are lost and you desperately finding a way out but too scared to go through the door.. trapped both ways... hugs.

 

I just want to say that you must do what you beleive deep in your heart. If you really want to be a fraction of his life, so be it ( albeit I dont beleive that a wonderful girl like you deserves just a fraction)... If you dont, pile up whatever you got until the last grain and pull yourself out with an aching scream.

 

whatever it is... you are your baby. I am sure you will takecare of her. Hugs again .

[Chica80]

Occam's razor: the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

 

I read it here on a post once.

[jenkins95]

 

I can believe what I want and think what I want. Is it the truth? Don't know but finally I have decided that whatever truth I need to believe to move forward is the truth it's going to be.

.

 

(((Sunshine)))

 

I really relate to this. I think all of us in affairs and those that have been in affairs are fragile people and we need to know that the direction we are going in (reconciliation, divorce, staying in affair, ending affair, etc) is the right one. We can never objectively know if we have truly done or are doing the right thing, but we have to make our own subjective truth "the truth".

 

The philosopher Søren Kierkegaard wrote a lot about this.See the bit on subjective truth near the bottom of this article.

 

Kierkegaard

 

For him, this philosophy was mainly directed at religion - how can you believe in God when you can never have objective proof of His existence? Well, you make your own subjective truth "the truth" in your own mind and that eliminates doubt and need for concrete proof. That article states:

 

"Passionate attachment to a palpable falsehood, Kierkegaard supposed, is preferable to detached conviction of the obvious truth."

 

In Kierkegaard's case, God did exist. Lack of proof and other people having different opinions and "truths" could not touch his own personal truth.

 

In my case, was I right to reconcile? Was my wife? Yes. But how can we be sure when there are so many variables and so many possible other outcomes? Because we've made it our truth, our subjective truth. Living in constant doubt or regret that you made poor decisions will destroy the soul gradually, so we have to make the decisions we've made the right ones in our mind. Others may have a different opinions, but opinions can't change the truth if that's what you've made it in your mind.

 

For what it's worth, I very rarely actually have doubt that my wife and I did the right thing. But when a stray, unwelcome thought creeps into my mind, I use this philosophy to combat it.

 

I hope you are all ok guys. Have a nice weekend. x

Edited June 10, 2017 by jenkins95

[Overtaxed]

Very interesting thoughts guys.

 

I often wonder what my xOW thought of me after the affair. I think it's probably one of two extremes, either she thinks I was a complete player and that everything I said was lies and manipulation just to get as much sex as I could. Or, I was a lost, highly conflicted, confused individual in the same way that FMS describes, who was selfish and said many things that he shouldn't have said (ILY), but that nevertheless, he meant them and they weren't lies.

 

I don't know what’s better for her to believe in terms of moving on, but it is definitely the second option that applies to me. I didn’t tell her big lies or future fake, but of course, the whole thing was one big lie – an implicit lie that what we were doing in our exclusive bubble was ok. Midnight often says that I am an exception amongst MM - perhaps so, but we do occassionally see other MM posters who I relate to on here.

 

The banality of evil concept really strikes a chord with me – thanks for that FMS. My OW and I allowed evil to happen because, from the outset, it was GUARANTEED that people would get hurt. If we'd taken a step back to analyse everything logically, we would have seen it as clear as day because it was obvious and we are intelligent adults. But we didn't! We ignored and pushed away the red flags and uncomfortable thoughts in order to indulge ourselves. We validated each other, we were selfish. We took a "it will all be ok", "no one needs to get hurt", "we're not really doing anything wrong", "we deserve this" stance. We were both happy to explore the depths of our connection while lying to and cheating on others - stringing them along in their ignorance and using them for support, while we got our excitement with each other. It was banal evil - banal in the sense that we didn't set out to hurt anyone. But evil nevertheless because we chose to turn a blind eye to and deny the massive injustice we were committing and the inevitable fall out ahead in order to carry on our fantasy.

 

Re-reading this makes me realise how completely lame the phrase "we didn't set out to hurt anyone" and its variations actually are. Of course we didn't deliberately set out to hurt anyone. That would make us psychopaths. Very few people actually set out to hurt anyone. But that simply doesn't cut it. As adults, we not only have to not "mean" to hurt anyone, we have to behave appropriately and put boundaries in place to ensure that we don't ACTUALLY hurt anyone. That inconvenience often gets swept aside in the intensity and addiction of an affair - it becomes justified in our minds. I could drive my car at 100mph down a busy street because I enjoyed the feeling of speed. If I hit someone, the phrase “I didn’t mean to hurt anyone” would carry very little weight in a courtroom.

 

Sorry, little bit off topic, but wanted you to know that your posts have made me think. Thank you!

 

Keep the posts coming guys! Good luck

 

This is a great post Jenkins. I typically lead to the "actively evil" bent for male APs, but you describe another type; passively evil, a man who just lets evil creep into his life because they don't push it away. I think this is also very common, especially for men who aren't serial cheats. The thing, for most men, it's hard to get an AP; you have to put some real effort into building a relationship in that direction. Women can kind of just "let it happen", men have, by and large, have to "make it happen". That's when it crosses from bad/evil to "active evil". You know what you're doing when you start whispering sweet nothings to another man's wife. You do, I do, and she does too. But she just has to sit back and hear them, not actually do anything other that "listen" to keep the A moving along.

 

So, not well formed thoughts, it's very early in the morning, no coffee yet. But I do see what you're saying. The "I wasn't looking for it" is true for close to 100% of WW's, but, it misses the point; that's not your "role" in an A. Women don't go out and seek APs, they just don't. The sit back and wait from them to seek them out. Men, by and large, are seeking out APs, which is why they often get the brunt of the anger from WW's, compared to a BH who typically (myself included) places a lot of fault with the AP. Without the man seeking sex, it wouldn't have happened in most of the cases that I know of. Is it fair? Of course not. But it's also the way we work as genders, men always have more "blame" for sexual acts because, most of the time, we're the ones who push things in that direction.

[somanymistakes]

We can find several cases even just here on the forums where it clearly was the bored wife who reached out to a man. Sometimes the exact same flirtatious behavior is interepreted as 'seeking' in a man but only 'being receptive' in a woman, because we like to jam things into familiar patterns whether they fit or not.

[freengreen]

We can find several cases even just here on the forums where it clearly was the bored wife who reached out to a man. Sometimes the exact same flirtatious behavior is interepreted as 'seeking' in a man but only 'being receptive' in a woman, because we like to jam things into familiar patterns whether they fit or not.

Good to see you here somanymistakes ..What you said is true, we do try fit stories into boxes we have... every person and their story is different... well, may be beacuse most of them do fit, but that dosnt mean everyone of them would.

 

Thankyou for the insight

[freengreen]

Overtaxed .. ??

 

Only you could come up with that word, ' passive evil' ( I was that when I was in). Thank you for stopping by .

[freengreen]

duplicate post

[Overtaxed]

We can find several cases even just here on the forums where it clearly was the bored wife who reached out to a man. Sometimes the exact same flirtatious behavior is interepreted as 'seeking' in a man but only 'being receptive' in a woman, because we like to jam things into familiar patterns whether they fit or not.

 

Agreed, and, absolutely, that does happen. It happened in my case actually, W reached out to the OM first. But, even reaching out is passive if there's no follow through. It's almost always the man who takes it to the next level. Let's meet for lunch turns into "let's get a room". But it's nearly always the man who's making the moves, the woman is following/allowing it. Yes, there are exceptions, there are women out there (and here, although I haven't read many stories of it) who really do actively seek out new men for sex. But it's really rare. No, it's not fair that men take the brunt of the blame automatically, but, in absence of other evidence, it's pretty safe to say things like "He tried to kiss her first", "He escalated it to sex", "He planned much of the time together" because, A or no A, that's the typical male/female interaction pattern.

[Overtaxed]

Overtaxed .. ??

 

Only you could come up with that word, ' passive evil' ( I was that when I was in). Thank you for stopping by .

 

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

 

^ Passive evil

 

That's your typical WW, allowing things to progress without stopping them. Men, on the other hand, typically fall into the typical "evil" role, plotting/scheming, planning out the encounters, planning out the sex, making sure condoms are available (or not), etc. That's when it goes from "letting it happen" to "making it happen". It's a more significant role and one that in almost all cases, falls on the male in an A. If your a man, and you don't pursue women, I can almost guarantee you, as long as your not insanely rich or handsome, you will not have an A. The same CANNOT be said for women. An A will find you, an attractive woman probably has 10 guys in her phone she could call in the next 10 minutes for sex. It's not seeking it out, it's letting it happen that's the problem for women.

 

And, before anyone feels terrible, listen, it's not that your husband is a terrible person (he might be, but one doesn't follow from the other). Yes, he almost certainly sought the A. And for those with WWs, it doesn't mean she's blameless and it "just happened". Everyone knows as an adult how male/female interactions work, blame doesn't disappear because suddenly there was a man pursuing you (for a WW) or a woman willing to let you sleep with her (for a WH).

[freengreen]

Yeap, letting things happen is also as bad in an affair because affair multipies things on consent.

 

If you have to stop the fire, you have to go get the extinguisher,you have to act against it.... sitting idle and let it happen will still burn the house.

[FoundMyStrength]

Yup....relate to all of this.....me talking....seeking wanting clarity....and the answers only he truly knows.

 

I can believe what I want and think what I want. Is it the truth? Don't know but finally I have decided that whatever truth I need to believe to move forward is the truth it's going to be.

 

There's a concept for it but I can't remember what it's called right now.

 

I also experienced this one-sided communication aspect. My xMM knew where I stood. But he kept his feelings close to the vest, his little secret about how he felt, where he stood, what his intentions were. One time he actually got pretty honest about this. He had been my supervisor, and he admitted he was being like (his job title) about the affair. His admission that he was "managing" me and the progression of the affair.

 

It makes me see how women get caught up long term. My xMM managing me really was shooting himself in the foot. If he'd outright lied, I might still be in the affair. I would have trusted him more than he deserved. Unfortunately for him (and fortunately for me), I'm a woman who does not liked to be "managed."

[FoundMyStrength]

Wow, there are so many elements to the posts you all have written here that I have written in my journal over the last two years... I literally wrote about my personal experience with the banality of evil during the A just a few days ago...

 

I am coming to terms with the fact that I am often quite naive and behave as a foolish person. I often "take a grain of sand and turn it into a beach." Usually with the opposite sex... when I am looking for more and they aren't. Also, I liken them in a way that makes them better than they actually are - they are put on the pedestal and I crouch underneath it... It is sad and it causes me great amounts of grief when reality comes a-knockin'.

 

In the beginning of the A, I, too, thought we could comfort each other and no one would get hurt. I acted as if his W didn't exist, also like the M wasn't real since they had no children together. I was selfish, then I rationalized, and then I became indignantly selfish and then bitter... and then there was resentment.

 

In the beginning, we talked about it briefly, and I assumed he was trying to divorce. Apparently, he changed his mind for whatever reason very early in the A. I distinctly remember him saying, "It's cheaper to keep her."

 

I know I was on one page and xMM was on another. And it was possible we had always been on different pages. And as naive and foolish as I have been in what I had hoped would become romantic relationships, I felt myself trying not to be as the A dragged on. I talked waaaayyyy too much, and he talked very little. He, at any time, could've set me straight. I honestly believe that his lack of discussion was him playing things close to the vest. If I thought something about him, his M, or our A, and wanted clarity, he would basically offer little to none in terms of information as a way of not giving away his hand. He was happy to take and take until my slow awakening caused our A to end.

 

I can't blame him. I vacillate between blaming him and cursing his name (he is evil!) to believing he was just being human and foolish and thoughtless just like I was (he is not evil). I don't know if he was a player or not, if he really cared or not. But I know I feel utter despair when my friends tell me I was played, because my most honest feeling is that I believed him not to be this evil, using thing. Because, although I would've jumped at the chance for a "real" relationship with him, I did use him, too. I feel a great deal of shame for how stupidly I have behaved and for all that I believed, and I feel that people can see it on my face and laugh at me behind my back.

 

I know I filled in a lot of blanks with whatever-in-the-h3ll I could think of at the time (usually negative), and he would not correct me. I was trying to plant myself in reality, and he had seemed to be content to let me live my whole life in the fantasy. I agree (with MidnightBlue?) that people will treat you how you show them to treat you. I allowed this, and then I changed my mind. And he and I arrived at an impasse.

 

At this point, I am actively trying not to make up loaves out of crumbs in my head. But I've done this for so long, I don't really know what I am doing...

 

Vivir, your comments about filling in the blanks really resonates. B/c of my xMM keeping his feelings to himself, I found myself doing a lot of reading into his intentions. Honestly, at times, it felt like I descended into superstition-land. Well, he said X but I could see Y in his eyes and there's a full moon tonight and I woke up on the left side of the bed...so that must mean he loves me and values our connection.

 

In retrospect, it really did underscore how much fantasy is involved, how much we all fill in the blanks that xMM leave empty. And, unfortunately, there's a reason he's leaving those blanks empty. So we never figure out that he can't or won't ever leave.

 

I also came away realizing that I am, in general, a romantisist and a fantasist. I like the feeling of falling in love. I like the feeling if developing a connection. And that makes me vulnerable to my xMM and others.

 

Like you, all of this has made me feel ashamed and foolish. I'm a grown woman. I feel like I should have known better. But I guess now I do. ;-)

[Cymbeline]

Agreed, and, absolutely, that does happen. It happened in my case actually, W reached out to the OM first. But, even reaching out is passive if there's no follow through. It's almost always the man who takes it to the next level. Let's meet for lunch turns into "let's get a room". But it's nearly always the man who's making the moves, the woman is following/allowing it. Yes, there are exceptions, there are women out there (and here, although I haven't read many stories of it) who really do actively seek out new men for sex. But it's really rare. No, it's not fair that men take the brunt of the blame automatically, but, in absence of other evidence, it's pretty safe to say things like "He tried to kiss her first", "He escalated it to sex", "He planned much of the time together" because, A or no A, that's the typical male/female interaction pattern.

 

I wonder if you are making a mistake about apparently passive behaviour. I think it involves plenty of agency, despite appearances. We Women are not generally as passive as society assumes but are often portrayed thus.

 

Anyway, there's nothing passive about the joint planning necessary for an affair.

[BluesPower]

I was not going to post anything... because this is more of an OW thread.

 

I was a MM. What I saw is this. I was honest about my situation. I did not think I was able to divorce because my wife was 'Sick" mentally and physically. Turned out that she was a hidden drug addict among other things.

 

But that is beside the point. Part of me loved my wife, but I was stuck and I still had kids to raise so that was an issue. I did most of the raising because she was "Sick".

 

But every woman that I was with fell deeply in love with me. Especially one of my main girls.

 

I did divorce and even was with my main AP for a while. But then she kind of went crazy for some reason and I had to dump her and after that she went completely nuts. I cared for her, maybe even loved her but after getting away from my wife I was not doing crazy anymore.

 

The point is all of these women caught strong feelings. I mean I am not all that. It is not like I am the catch of the year or anything. Decent looking for my age, good guy, decent in the sack, but nothing special.

 

I just never understood that crazy love dynamic that I seemed to get from my AP's.

 

Don't know if any of that helps...