How much of it is our own mind making it up?..

[Southwardbound]

takeaways from this thread, seems to be a desire for 'clarity.' I'm glad, I'm not the only one who finds they have issues with this need for understanding & how it affects your decision-making process.

 

In order for 'clarity' one needs to have both sides of the information/narrative/story picture. A big problem within Affairs, is each partner withholds certain levels of that clarity, that the other partner really needs to see in order to act, objectively. This happens frequently in my own LTA. When I think MM is doing it deliberately, I try to trip MM up - cause it's one of my pet peeves. MM then gets very defensive by saying, he never lies to me, & maybe that is true? But, I do know he withholds information, or timing of its revealing it- so as to benefit him (keep me in the dark). Personally - I find this highly annoying. And I know that such action, is not good for any type of relationship. Then I think, if he does this to me, he must surely be doing it to her, even more so?

 

The other issue is why individuals stepped out in the first place. In regards to this issue, - the why of it occurring, applying Arendt's Banality of Evil premise is an interesting thought that I never considered before applying to Affairs. However, it makes sense. History shows that it is merely human nature for societies & individuals to repeat actions, no matter how evil they may be.

 

Certainly it is true that both societies & individuals justifies such wronged boundary breaks in numerous ways when they first start out. And there's no denying there will be powerful hurts when such actions have been 'outted.'

 

I will admit I was the one who initially contacted my MM. But I didn't originally do it, thinking it would morph into an affair. I naively thought maybe, we could just be friends. But looking back on our original conversations (because YES I did save all of them), I can see that once the contact was made - that his intentions were different from mine. And that is how one can end up in a LTA.

[AlwaysGrowing]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

 

^ Passive evil

 

That's your typical WW, allowing things to progress without stopping them. Men, on the other hand, typically fall into the typical "evil" role, plotting/scheming, planning out the encounters, planning out the sex, making sure condoms are available (or not), etc. That's when it goes from "letting it happen" to "making it happen". It's a more significant role and one that in almost all cases, falls on the male in an A. If your a man, and you don't pursue women, I can almost guarantee you, as long as your not insanely rich or handsome, you will not have an A. The same CANNOT be said for women. An A will find you, an attractive woman probably has 10 guys in her phone she could call in the next 10 minutes for sex. It's not seeking it out, it's letting it happen that's the problem for women.

 

And, before anyone feels terrible, listen, it's not that your husband is a terrible person (he might be, but one doesn't follow from the other). Yes, he almost certainly sought the A. And for those with WWs, it doesn't mean she's blameless and it "just happened". Everyone knows as an adult how male/female interactions work, blame doesn't disappear because suddenly there was a man pursuing you (for a WW) or a woman willing to let you sleep with her (for a WH).

 

 

I work in a predominately male workplace.....and I can tell you that it is the women that cross lines, are the ones that are too touchy/feely, flirtatious and outright come on to the men.....way more than the men. Heck, I have sat there completely gobsmacked listening to some womens conversations that they try to have. Just 4 months ago, a male co-worker had a female co-worker asking him if she liked him...whilst I was sitting next to him. His first, second, third response was "I am a happily married man". She wouldnt let it go....on and on she went...posing scenarios to him and would he like her back. Finally he said "I am flattered and I am happily married, no thank you". When she left...he turned to me to say thank you for staying...I told him I stayed because this was a clear case of unwanted sexual advances and as a man he would have been the first one to blame without witnesses.

 

From my experience it is men who are more likely to be the passive one. Especially in the workplace. I can not tell you how often I have witnessed similiar exchanges, usually the men will appease the woman and say yes, I like you or have no response to a woman who acts/says sexually inappropriate things. I can tell you that 100% of any hugging going on at work has been initiated by women.

 

For some reason there are quite a few women/men that do not understand that Sexual harassment laws are written gender neutral. For some reason men are significantly less likely to report.

[freengreen]

Thankyou Cymbeline, Southwardbound and Always growing... you guys are giving such unbiased perspective, very balanced ones.

 

I am glad

[BreakingWave]

I heard him lie to his wife in front of me, I saw his true colors and chose to believe that I was the exception to the rule and that I could control the situation.

...

 

So he was a bad guy - but he never pretended to be a good guy. I chose to rewrite the story and ignored what was right in front of my face.

 

 

Amen, Amen, Amen. My AP has been super upfront about telling me she doesn't think she has the "courage" to leave her long marriage and financial security for a same sex relationship without the high income. She has point-blank looked me in the face and told me she doesn't know if she'll ever be able to be the person that, as a friend, she knows I deserve to be with. I have listened to her lie to her family to explain where she is when she's with me. I have been invited to numerous family events and laughed and socialized with people who have no idea that we're engaged in an A that could tear their family apart.

 

I don't know if this is more foolish or more selfish - on my part, or hers. I know that when I step back and look at the situation as if from outside, it's so horrible. And yet I just can't pull away. OK, let's get real. I won't pull away, it isn't about can or can't.

 

So yes, I think we do idealize our APs because it's the only way to make them (and us) less horrible in our own eyes.

[freengreen]

Amen, Amen, Amen. My AP has been super upfront about telling me she doesn't think she has the "courage" to leave her long marriage and financial security for a same sex relationship without the high income. She has point-blank looked me in the face and told me she doesn't know if she'll ever be able to be the person that, as a friend, she knows I deserve to be with. I have listened to her lie to her family to explain where she is when she's with me. I have been invited to numerous family events and laughed and socialized with people who have no idea that we're engaged in an A that could tear their family apart.

 

I don't know if this is more foolish or more selfish - on my part, or hers. I know that when I step back and look at the situation as if from outside, it's so horrible. And yet I just can't pull away. OK, let's get real. I won't pull away, it isn't about can or can't.

 

So yes, I think we do idealize our APs because it's the only way to make them (and us) less horrible in our own eyes.

yeah like painting olives red and eating them with cake like cherries...and then playing stoic on the taste in own mouth... epitome of 'blind love'.. I did it. We did it.

 

I sometimes listen to 'Uninvited' by Alanis Morisette and think how I never had that art like her to politely say 'please eff off'. Thanks for popping by Breakingwave

[AlwaysGrowing]

yeah like painting olives red and eating them with cake like cherries...and then playing stoic on the taste in own mouth... epitome of 'blind love'.. I did it. We did it.

 

I sometimes listen to 'Uninvited' by Alanis Morisette and think how I never had that art like her to politely say 'please eff off'. Thanks for popping by Breakingwave

 

Cognitive Dissonance we all have experienced it to some degree and/or frequency.

[BreakingWave]

"Uninvited" is an AMAZING song. I heard it randomly a few months ago for the first time in years and it just blew me away how applicable it is.

[FoundMyStrength]

I was not going to post anything... because this is more of an OW thread.

 

I was a MM. What I saw is this. I was honest about my situation. I did not think I was able to divorce because my wife was 'Sick" mentally and physically. Turned out that she was a hidden drug addict among other things.

 

But that is beside the point. Part of me loved my wife, but I was stuck and I still had kids to raise so that was an issue. I did most of the raising because she was "Sick".

 

But every woman that I was with fell deeply in love with me. Especially one of my main girls.

 

I did divorce and even was with my main AP for a while. But then she kind of went crazy for some reason and I had to dump her and after that she went completely nuts. I cared for her, maybe even loved her but after getting away from my wife I was not doing crazy anymore.

 

The point is all of these women caught strong feelings. I mean I am not all that. It is not like I am the catch of the year or anything. Decent looking for my age, good guy, decent in the sack, but nothing special.

 

I just never understood that crazy love dynamic that I seemed to get from my AP's.

 

Don't know if any of that helps...

 

BluesPower, I have appreciated so many of your posts. Maybe because they show the insight and frank honesty I wish my xMM would have had with me.

 

The thing that resonates from your post is that I caught feelings just like you describe AND now that I'm out -- fully and completely, heart as well -- wonder what in the world I was thinking. Don't get me.wrong. my xMM was a nice, decent guy. He and I connected on a lot of social/political/spiritual/life ways. But was he LITERALLY my soul mate, the missing piece, the perfect man I made him out to be?

 

H*"l no. For one, he was cheating on his wife. Two, he was managing me. Three, he showed a side during the "break up" that was cold, cruel, and vindictive. That's not to say you're like that. But you're right. During the affair, we see the xMM through our special rose-colored glasses and it's only when it falls apart do we see that maybe he isn't really all that and a bag of chips. He's just a man, and a very flawed specimen of a man at that.

Edited June 11, 2017 by FoundMyStrength

[FoundMyStrength]

Also, y'all, I have to say this has become one of the best, most insightful threads on loveshack right now. I say we keep it going. :-)

[Chica80]

I'm struggling today....and this is where I find myself, how much of it is in my mind.

 

How can something I be so convinced about believe to be so true. How can it not be? What is real, what is not, and in the end does it really matter? Because even if it is true or not the outcome is the same.

 

Not such a great day today. :/

[MidnightBlue1980]

I was not going to post anything... because this is more of an OW thread.

 

I was a MM. What I saw is this. I was honest about my situation. I did not think I was able to divorce because my wife was 'Sick" mentally and physically. Turned out that she was a hidden drug addict among other things.

 

But that is beside the point. Part of me loved my wife, but I was stuck and I still had kids to raise so that was an issue. I did most of the raising because she was "Sick".

 

But every woman that I was with fell deeply in love with me. Especially one of my main girls.

 

I did divorce and even was with my main AP for a while. But then she kind of went crazy for some reason and I had to dump her and after that she went completely nuts. I cared for her, maybe even loved her but after getting away from my wife I was not doing crazy anymore.

 

The point is all of these women caught strong feelings. I mean I am not all that. It is not like I am the catch of the year or anything. Decent looking for my age, good guy, decent in the sack, but nothing special.

 

I just never understood that crazy love dynamic that I seemed to get from my AP's.

 

Don't know if any of that helps...

 

This is great. I hope you read my response Blues.

 

Here is what it is - woman act "crazy" when we feel insecure in a relationship. I have been extremely crazy in relationships, probably fighting it down to maintain that fake composure women have to show to seem "cool" and "confident" - but when I met my H, he was so focused on wanting to be with me that it calmed me. I was not crazy. But....obviously I am here so my life derailed later on.

 

The point is that the women you met, fell hard and acted crazy because you were j-u-s-t out of reach. See, a real jerk, we don't get crazy about as we know the guy is using us. And someone obviously into us, kissing our butts, we don't get crazy about, they love us. It is the in-between that makes us nuts. You are never really ours, sort of with us, sort of not, one foot in, one foot out.

 

“Did I ever really love Big or was I addicted to the pain, the exquisite pain, of wanting someone so unattainable?”~Carrie, Sex and the City

[Chica80]

This is great. I hope you read my response Blues.

 

Here is what it is - woman act "crazy" when we feel insecure in a relationship. I have been extremely crazy in relationships, probably fighting it down to maintain that fake composure women have to show to seem "cool" and "confident" - but when I met my H, he was so focused on wanting to be with me that it calmed me. I was not crazy. But....obviously I am here so my life derailed later on.

 

The point is that the women you met, fell hard and acted crazy because you were j-u-s-t out of reach. See, a real jerk, we don't get crazy about as we know the guy is using us. And someone obviously into us, kissing our butts, we don't get crazy about, they love us. It is the in-between that makes us nuts. You are never really ours, sort of with us, sort of not, one foot in, one foot out.

 

“Did I ever really love Big or was I addicted to the pain, the exquisite pain, of wanting someone so unattainable?”~Carrie, Sex and the City

 

oh, so agree....

[lostgirl87]

This is great. I hope you read my response Blues.

 

Here is what it is - woman act "crazy" when we feel insecure in a relationship. I have been extremely crazy in relationships, probably fighting it down to maintain that fake composure women have to show to seem "cool" and "confident" - but when I met my H, he was so focused on wanting to be with me that it calmed me. I was not crazy. But....obviously I am here so my life derailed later on.

 

The point is that the women you met, fell hard and acted crazy because you were j-u-s-t out of reach. See, a real jerk, we don't get crazy about as we know the guy is using us. And someone obviously into us, kissing our butts, we don't get crazy about, they love us. It is the in-between that makes us nuts. You are never really ours, sort of with us, sort of not, one foot in, one foot out.

 

“Did I ever really love Big or was I addicted to the pain, the exquisite pain, of wanting someone so unattainable?”~Carrie, Sex and the City

Omg yes. A million times YES!! How did I not know this about myself? This is exactly what happened with MM and I. I've always been "chill", easy going and independent in all my relationships. If anything, I was always the one who got bored and ended things while the men I dated were actually into me.

 

I even remember MM saying to me on several occasions "you love me only b/c I'm unavailable and I put you in your place- I don't kiss your a$$ like these other guys do or always let you be right". He treated me well (minus the part where he was married lol) but it's true, he didn't kiss my butt all the time. He met my demands of public dates, communicating with me in the morning to let me know where he'd be and checking in throughout the day and things like that but if I were being extra bratty he wouldn't cater to me. He wouldn't talk to me until I was happy. He would simply not speak to me or ignore me or tell me "you can be mad all by yourself- I'm not doing this". When he did things like this it made me wonder ifnhe really loved me and that's when I would panic. And if things got extra hectic, he would threaten to end us. I was always fearful of one day going too far and him "leaving me".

 

This comment really made me think- I don't think the relationship I had with MM was at all made up in my own head but I do think this concept of him being unattainable or just out of reach did make him seem like more of a prize than he really is. Truth be told, I don't know if I would've dated him for as long as I did if he had been completely single and 100% available to me.

 

Wow. Great post! Lol. Such a simple concept...I don't know why it's ringing so true tonight.

[Cymbeline]

Together with all the wise words written above by those who have 'been there', you may be interested in the book below which explains the deep Psychodynamic reasons for the way we perceive and pursue romantic love. It is fascinating. Hollis writes very well.

 

https://m.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-eden-project-james-hollis/1114299622?ean=9780919123809