Author BettyDraper Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 My wife is like this. Never at fault, no regrets. Then again - I have noticed among men and women these days that accountability and ownership of mistakes are in very short supply for all parts of their lives. Everyone else is to blame. Business leaders, politicians, everyone is never at fault and no apologies. I can say I dont like specific double standards - so when my wife makes statements about "don't lie or hide things from me"...I tend to bring up her past betrayals and lies. So I guess I do some turn backs. It's impossible for someone to never be at fault. If your wife lies to you and then tells you not to lie, I can certainly appreciate how her hypocrisy would prompt you to point it out. My husband's blame shifting is often completely unrelated to the topic at hand so I'm not sure that hypocrisy is the problem here. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 I just imagine a little boy wondering why. So sad. Have you asked him how he would like to be approached when there's a problem? Maybe growing up he felt it was his fault he wasn't loved. So now as a man he struggles with you mentioning he could have a shortcoming. It screams at him, you're inadequate. You could be right. I have asked my husband to see a counselor for his admitted "self hate" issues to no avail. My husband just doesn't believe in therapy even though he acknowledges that it has helped me. He feels that we can handle our problems as a couple because we have been through far worse challenges. Link to post Share on other sites
Gemma1 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 I'm not trying to be difficult so please excuse me if I sound dense, Gem. I fail to see what is wrong with calmly and quietly saying "I don't like the way you snapped at me." It's not a personal attack. It's a simple and respectful statement of my feelings. There is nothing inherently wrong with it, but previous posters here have given you suggestions on how to make it better. *You* know it's not a personal attack, but you said yourself that your husband is responding as though it were. So if you can find a better way to talk to him that doesn't make him feel that way, it could solve your problems. Again, you're not going to make him change. And regardless of your word choice, you must at least understand that you not wanting to change your phrasing because your husband is refusing to go to counseling is the same sort of thing you're mad at him for. It's like it's all tit for tat - you're justifying not changing because he won't change, and he justifies his mistakes because you've also made mistakes. Link to post Share on other sites
aileD Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) I have done this but I haven't had the balls to use it yet: Voice record. Or take a video with the camera down so you can say "I didn't realize it was recording but ......" Sometimes hearing for himself what his tone of voice is and how it comes across can be a wake up call. My husband has awful tone and sounds like a 3 year old when he argues with the kids. I recorded it once. Haven't told or let him hear it, but our therapist had and he was like wow....you would never know he acts like that by what he shows in therapy Oh and wait a few days till you're in a calmer mood and he is too to "accidentally" come across the video while you're together. ...."oh what's this?......wow, when I say things like you snapped st me, I guess I just mean it's THIS tone of voice that makes me feel snapped at...." Guaranteed he'll think of that recording every time he's about to snap Edited June 15, 2017 by aileD Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 I don't have advice but I do empathize. My ex was famous for "explaining" to me "why" I caused him to do X. The "I'm sorry I reacted badly to YOUR FLAW" routine. Even when I managed to get him to admit he did it it never changed. The only thing that helped me was refusing to buy into his blame game and letting go of caring whether he got it or not. It didn't help our marriage but it helped me not go insane trying to get him to see. Link to post Share on other sites
Popsicle Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 I've observed many other men react to problems being discussed in the same manner so I wonder if it's just typical male behavior. It is typical of married PEOPLE, but yes married men too. They're comfortable and don't want to do anything uncomfortable (like change) Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) It is typical of married PEOPLE, but yes married men too. They're comfortable and don't want to do anything uncomfortable (like change) My personal experience has been that men will treat women badly once they get too comfortable. They start taking us for granted. For this reason, I like to keep my husband on his toes. I don't let him get away with unfair or disrespectful behavior because that's a slippery slope. Men have far more respect for women who challenge them once in a while. Edited June 17, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator language~T 2 Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Not to get all psychology-ey, but who in your life/past does your hubby remind you of? They say most women marry their fathers (figuratively). I made the mistake the first time around of marrying my mother (well, my mother with no sex drive). I love my mother, but she made a crappy husband lololol Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) Speaking of my own experiences is not saying that every man is the same. My opinions also come from my observations and what I hear many women complaining about. Maybe I don't always pick the best men but I'm sure that's not always the case with the women who post in this forum or women in real life who have complained to me. A common pattern I have seen in men is selfishness and getting so comfortable that they stop making an effort. Women also tend to downplay the importance of sex in a marriage as the years go by. I've also noticed that women let themselves go and play the victim when their husbands no longer find them attractive. Edited June 17, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator response to deleted post ~T 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Overtaxed Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Women also tend to downplay the importance of sex in a marriage as the years go by. I've also noticed that women let themselves go and play the victim when their husbands no longer find them attractive. Do they ever. My W never let herself go, she's more beautiful today than when I met her. But she never understood why sex was so important. And very few women do; they laugh about it when I overhear them, talk about how "he's not getting any tonight" and use it as a control mechanism instead of something that's shared and a valuable part of the marriage. Some men do this as well, but it's typically the man who's high drive, and the one who's looking to have more sex. But the pattern is so common as to be the subject of lots of comedy skits which honestly, is really sad. Sex is an amazing bonding experience for men and women; pull that out of the marriage and you basically have a roommate who you split chores with. Why so many women (and some men) are happy with this arrangement boggles my mind. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 15, 2017 Share Posted June 15, 2017 Why so many women (and some men) are happy with this arrangement boggles my mind. ...Because sex is simply not important to them. Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 15, 2017 Author Share Posted June 15, 2017 Do they ever. My W never let herself go, she's more beautiful today than when I met her. But she never understood why sex was so important. And very few women do; they laugh about it when I overhear them, talk about how "he's not getting any tonight" and use it as a control mechanism instead of something that's shared and a valuable part of the marriage. Some men do this as well, but it's typically the man who's high drive, and the one who's looking to have more sex. But the pattern is so common as to be the subject of lots of comedy skits which honestly, is really sad. Sex is an amazing bonding experience for men and women; pull that out of the marriage and you basically have a roommate who you split chores with. Why so many women (and some men) are happy with this arrangement boggles my mind. I don't understand either. I can't use sex as a bargaining tool because I enjoy it too much and manipulation is toxic. I still have sex with Don (LOL) even when we've been arguing. It helps us make up. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Overtaxed Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 ...Because sex is simply not important to them. I'm sure you're right, but, put gently, why marry in the first place then? Or, if you really want the "other" aspects of a marriage but you have no drive for your H or W, why not let them seek sex elsewhere? Because, I suspect "it's not important to them" becomes real important when, as another poster discussed recently, one partner steps outside the marriage to get it, even with no emotional attachment at all (this poster was considering a prostitute). IDK, I kind of see people saying "sex just isn't that important to me in my relationship" the same as people saying "I just don't feel like making my partner happy". If something really isn't important to you in a relationship but it is important to your partner AND you won't let them get it anywhere else, I'd say that's a relationship that needs to end. I'm much higher drive than my wife (as, I think, are most men), but she's never acted like many LD partners are just "given up", we try to make it work. That means that both people move towards the other, I back it down a bit, she steps it up a bit. But the threads on here often make my eyes bleed; I'd venture a guess (certainly true for me) that most HD people would like to have sex every day (and perhaps more than that). But you read thread after thread about "monthly" sex or sex a few times a year. That's not even in the zip code of moving together, that's bordering on "asexual". And yet it's reality for many of my friends, and I suspect many married relationships out there. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mercy Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I don't understand either. I can't use sex as a bargaining tool because I enjoy it too much and manipulation is toxic. I still have sex with Don (LOL) even when we've been arguing. It helps us make up. I was a little snippy yesterday morning, getting ready for a day trip with the grandkids. H said, are you looking for make up sex because I don't have time. We laughed about it the entire day, grandkids would say what's so funny. lol 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 I was a little snippy yesterday morning, getting ready for a day trip with the grandkids. H said, are you looking for make up sex because I don't have time. We laughed about it the entire day, grandkids would say what's so funny. lol :laugh: How lovely that you are still having sex when you have grandchildren! I hope my husband and I keep our passionate sex life as we grow older. We're both very excited to make love again. We don't have sex during my period and mine just ended. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
spiderowl Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) My personal experience has been that men will treat women badly once they get too comfortable. They start taking us for granted. For this reason, I like to keep my husband on his toes. I don't let him get away with unfair or disrespectful behavior because that's a slippery slope. Men have far more respect for women who are a little bit beetchy once in a while. I think you are right that respect is very important. I also read somewhere that men need to feel like winners in a relationship; they need to feel that they can make a woman happy. I guess we all need to feel like winners so that's not surprising. By criticising him directly, you are making it clear you are not happy. Maybe it is worth you thinking about how you make him feel he can make you happy. Direct criticism might not help but depriving him of your company when he is disrespectful to you and also being positive and warm about the behaviour you do want to encourage might make you both feel better. If that does not work, then I would completely understand if you wanted to separate. It is very hard to be with a totally inflexible person, knowing nothing will change. Edited June 16, 2017 by spiderowl Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) My personal experience has been that men will treat women badly once they get too comfortable. They start taking us for granted. For this reason, I like to keep my husband on his toes. I don't let him get away with unfair or disrespectful behavior because that's a slippery slope. Men have far more respect for women who challenge them once in a while. in my experience men who need women to challenge them to show that lady respect...are not gentlemen...or the right type of man..nor are the women being true to themselves if they feel they have to behave in a bad way and not apologize for it.... to keep a man....... pms is different....we are not ourselves...we are ...otherly....then..throw chocolate and leave us alone....deb Edited June 17, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator language ~T 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) in my experience men who need women to challenge them to show that lady respect...are not gentlemen...or the right type of man..nor are the women being true to themselves if they feel they have to behave in a bad way and not apologize for it.... to keep a man....... pms is different....we are not ourselves...we are ...otherly....then..throw chocolate and leave us alone....deb We are all products of what we go through in life and what we see. That saying "Nice guys finish last" is also true for women. Anyone who is overly sweet and accommodating will be eventually be taken for a ride. I think women are socialized to be always be nice and put everyone else first. That can backfire on us. Edited June 17, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
Author BettyDraper Posted June 17, 2017 Author Share Posted June 17, 2017 I think you are right that respect is very important. I also read somewhere that men need to feel like winners in a relationship; they need to feel that they can make a woman happy. I guess we all need to feel like winners so that's not surprising. By criticising him directly, you are making it clear you are not happy. Maybe it is worth you thinking about how you make him feel he can make you happy. Direct criticism might not help but depriving him of your company when he is disrespectful to you and also being positive and warm about the behaviour you do want to encourage might make you both feel better. If that does not work, then I would completely understand if you wanted to separate. It is very hard to be with a totally inflexible person, knowing nothing will change. I think your advice makes sense. I have an update....my husband and I had a conversation. He says he feels ashamed when he is wrong so the tries to put the blame on me. When I asked my husband why he feels ashamed, he replied that he knows how hard I am on myself and others. He thinks that I'm attacking him the same way I attack myself. This angle is rather unusual but I'm sure my husband is telling the truth. He's not the first person to tell me that I'm too hard on myself. Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) We are all products of what we go through in life and what we see. That saying "Nice guys finish last" is also true for women. Anyone who is overly sweet and accommodating will be eventually be taken for a ride. I think women are socialized to be always be nice and put everyone else first. That can backfire on us. i feel there needs to be a balance of what you take as a nice woman and what you dont...but....being nice might not get you accolades or minions...but it does get you...self respect.....i can [] take a man down......never makes me feel like i have respected the way i want to be and the way i want to treat people....when i stand up....for myself or others...i want what i am standing up for to be right and good..just...and to stand up the same way....so as to be respected by the right people at the right time for the right reasons...its a mistake to consider me when i am nice to be a weakness in me or a fault........sometimes its when i am trying my damn hardest....to be nice...... even though i want to rip their head off......which in actuality ...i probably could...(probably what guys sense in me even though i am nice and know when i have a certain look in my eye however nice i am speaking back the f off i wont take much more..my eyes apparently flash...guys dont want that side....to come out......rightly so ...i dont want it out either.....havent tried it though ripping heads...i would rather motivate than degenerate.. so far nice wins..as it should..nice is awesome.. we need more nice....not [mean]...they come into heat every season........i never finish first...i finish it period....ill go till what needs to be said is done.......nicely of course............deb Edited June 17, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Prohibited language Link to post Share on other sites
HangnTN Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I've observed many other men react to problems being discussed in the same manner so I wonder if it's just typical male behavior. Yes. All men do this. All women are victims of this inherent universal male trait/failing. Its their Sisyphus' burden. (If you don't know the story of Sisyphus, Google is your friend.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Arieswoman Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I have heard about Sisyphus and his rock but not sure how you apply this to the discussion that is taking place? Duh Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 I have heard about Sisyphus and his rock but not sure how you apply this to the discussion that is taking place? Duh He means that blame shifting by men is the Sisyphus rock that women have to continually put up with. We don't like it, so we put in all the work, we feel we are getting somewhere, the end is in sight, but like the rock, it just rolls on back down the hill again and we are back to square one, all our hard work for nothing and he is back blame shifting with all his might again... So we try again... and again... and again. Link to post Share on other sites
William Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 It appears one of our moderators cleaned up this thread at the behest of the thread starter due to some incivility in the comments and we've also cleaned up prohibited language and placed some members on moderation. Since this is the second reminder in this regard from myself, the next step is suspension for violators. You can discuss topics within our guidelines and present your opinions and experience to the forum of discussion. I trust you will. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites
aileD Posted June 17, 2017 Share Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) So just a funny blame shifting story that happened today: Background- years ago I picked up a kitchen table at a yard sale. It had the leaf inside of it and you could make table bigger or smaller much easily. We had a table that was falling apart at the time Out kitchen doesn't have much space and we had the leaf in and H got so annoyed that the table was "too big". After complaining enough I just took the leaf out and made the table smaller. Now every time he sits down his chair is too close to the other chair and he gets annoyed. This morning he pushed the other chair away roughly and I'm like "uh you don't have to break the chair or the wall, what's the problem" "Every time I sit here bla bla I hate this table it's too small." Me "theres a leaf under it, we removed it because you said the table was too big remember? We could put it back in" The blame shifting: "You should have never got this table. If you didn't get this table at that yard sale then we would have probably just bought one new that would have fit our house better and we wouldn't have this problem" I'm thinking....what problem? The problem of you can't control your temper because a chair was too close to you? It's my fault from five years ago that you are annoyed that our too big table is now too small? Sad thing is we added the leaf and it's awfully close to the fridge now so I know he's going to bump into it and get pissed at that too. Sigh. Can't win! Edited June 17, 2017 by aileD 2 Link to post Share on other sites
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