When you like what you cant have?

[Blanco]

Its amazing when I say Russia that is equated to mail order bride. Actually not, all I was saying is I am finding people there to be a lot easier to actually communicate with and for the most part some interest is actually shown, there is an appreciation for many things that many people take for granted.

 

 

Yes, I have actually met people from Eastern Europe and almost time I have found them to be more friendly, likewise the people I have met from the USA.

 

 

The point here, did it really surprise anyone I was looking at left field alternatives? If you had this much bad luck would you not do the same?

 

 

I have been down the seeking arrangement pay date road idea too, not particularly enjoyable and a total waste of money too but at lease I can say "ok done that wont try it again", is this not the sort of thing which is being encouraged? The idea to look at different ideas?

 

 

Proving people wrong in dating is petty and childish if you ask me, throw $5k at a bar and tell me you wont land up with a date as the result, does that prove anyone, not really. Fear, not sure where this comes from, yes its true I don't enjoy rejection so I am not exactly going to put myself in that position ever again unless there comes a point where I have had some success to mitigate against that, of course this is totally wrong, its about being rejected countless time and somehow you need to learn from that, not sure how exactly when no constructive advice is ever forthcoming from these who reject me. I play odds, if I see someone especially pretty my mind goes through these steps

 

 

1: Who is she with

2: Don't bother because she isn't going to be single

3: Don't bother because I am not going to be what she wants anyway.

 

 

Of course the "you don't know what she wants" will get trotted out, true I don't but I highly doubt she wants a guy with few friends, who doesn't drink, doesn't dance and does matter. Oh and isn't really very fun at all. Do I care don't do those things, some of the time yes and some of the time no, the only time I do care is when I am confronted with situations like the above, most of the time I couldn't care less.

 

 

At no point have I ever been proven wrong, "but you don't try" I have tried in the past, in what has usually been a very awkward devoid of charm way. The try part has often just landed me with the bitter feeling of projected pity towards me, I'd actually rather someone be rude and nasty than patronising and pitying.

 

 

In terms of said friend I have asserted my position and that sort of nonsense has come to an end, so have the attempts to set me up with all sorts of wholly incompatible people. In the shop instance, she had already mentioned she had a boyfriend BEFORE he put me on the spot which made the whole thing even more awkward. My reaction always tells, it always, always does. Believe me its obvious to anyone I don't have much dating experience, especially when its "guy talk" which thankfully I have avoided by removing myself from that particular group. A lot of it is pure objectification of ladies which I completely disagree with, who has been with who and so on and so forth. There was another he tried to set me up with, she was actually very nice and I got on well with her but again boyfriend and an completely incompatible lifestyle.

 

 

I am simply at odd with the market I shop in, the market isn't changing and nor am I but I guess I somehow hope I might be appealing to that market on some level but the lack of fun kills that idea stone dead.

 

 

Personal growth, please tell me what that is? Growth for me is achieving things, there is a lot I have managed to do and beaten the odds in the process and its driven by me not giving up because along the way I have seen improvements to spur me on. I have never seen those improvements at dating ever, I can smile and try make people laugh but it comes off as odd. Nothing I do seems to bring any other outcome. When people stand in front of me and tell me "oh it doesn't make an difference what he has, its about him the person" but in the same breath go off and chase the next guy because what he has...then moan on later he only wanted one thing. Sorry I find that whole thing quite hard to swallow and find it even harder to find any sort of sympathy either.

 

 

Then I look around and see the apparent ease some guys have at getting what they want, I think I have met probably two dozen guys who seem to get whatever they want always. Must be a great talent to have but when I see how they get what they want and the methods I just look on is disdain. I simply would not indulge in the level of half truth and BS employed by some of these people, added to which the utter superficial way they go about this.

 

 

I don't get it, I admit I simply don't, perhaps I am just stupid but the whole mechanics of attracting people means nothing to me, makes zero sense. I wish I had had those late teen years to learn this when everyone else did because maybe then I would have enjoyed more success today.

 

 

I'll still always know what I want and like what I like but I'll always know its not attainable because there will always be someone ahead of me who is more desirable and marketable. When people ask me "where is your date", my new answer is " don't have one nobody I like likes me" which I concede is a very off putting answer but its also the blunt honest truth.

 

 

Honesty, I major in that even if few others seem to.

 

You're right. It's hopeless.

[GemmaUK]

Its amazing when I say Russia that is equated to mail order bride. Actually not, all I was saying is I am finding people there to be a lot easier to actually communicate with and for the most part some interest is actually shown, there is an appreciation for many things that many people take for granted.

Yes, I have actually met people from Eastern Europe and almost every time I have found them to be more friendly, likewise the people I have met from the USA.

The point here, did it really surprise anyone I was looking at left field alternatives? If you had this much bad luck would you not do the same?

Hmm, no, I wouldn't go directly to left field if I wasn't sure right field was all in order first.

Many folk have suggested you up sticks and move and without trawling back I can't recall if you have made a response to that. If you have I suspect the response would be 'it's not going to be any different wherever I go'.

Have you ever even taken a trip to Russia or the US?

Perhaps you just really don't fit in with the culture where you are but if you completely won't take a trip, get involved with people too (there's a tonne of trips for people to go on in groups out there) then you don't know.

I've never linked anytime you have mentioned Russians to the mail order bride route, you have though so that'll be why others do.

Below you talk about paid dates - that will also be another reason others 'think' you mean mail order. Take responsibility for that ZA.

Research the cultures in Russia and the US, look into group trips, find something amazing to go and do and with a group of people. Only being around humans will help you improve on interactions with fellow humans. Notice I say humans, not solely women.

 

 

I have been down the seeking arrangement pay date road idea too, not particularly enjoyable and a total waste of money too but at lease I can say "ok done that wont try it again", is this not the sort of thing which is being encouraged? The idea to look at different ideas?

Er, well a paid date is a business proposition so a paid date will only lead to further paid dates - surely you'd realise that.

An escort is there for company/sex/whatever they offer, they are not life coaches there to teach you how to be xyz, nor are they likely to become a dating prospect.

They are also not a great way to experience sex for a newbie.

I'm pretty sure I have mentioned to you before a place in Holland I think it is where sex therapists talk, teach, train, show and help men experience sex in a comfortable environment and at their own pace.

That is something else you could look into as a way to get the virgin title out of the way and at the same time learn a tonne about interactions and relationships and how to read people.

 

 

Proving people wrong in dating is petty and childish if you ask me

Yes, so why do you do it all the time with your constant excuses?

 

I don't enjoy rejection so I am not exactly going to put myself in that position ever again unless there comes a point where I have had some success to mitigate against that, of course this is totally wrong, its about being rejected countless time and somehow you need to learn from that, not sure how exactly when no constructive advice is ever forthcoming from these who reject me.

Rejection is all a part of dating and no one that you date is obligated to give you constructive criticism. Dating is not a previously agreed contract. It's about feelings, emotions, vulnerability.

 

I play odds, if I see someone especially pretty my mind goes through these steps

1: Who is she with

2: Don't bother because she isn't going to be single

3: Don't bother because I am not going to be what she wants anyway.

You stop before you even start. If you are not willing to attempt to change this attitude then you have to accept you will always be a virgin and always have no relationships with women.

 

Of course the "you don't know what she wants" will get trotted out, true I don't but I highly doubt she wants a guy with few friends, who doesn't drink, doesn't dance and does matter. Oh and isn't really very fun at all. Do I care don't do those things, some of the time yes and some of the time no, the only time I do care is when I am confronted with situations like the above, most of the time I couldn't care less.

So change one of these things, take a wine tasting course, take some dance lessons. Both of these things will also integrate you amongst fellow human beings and help you to learn interactions. There is absolutely nothing stopping you getting enrolled in a course and sticking it out except YOURSELF.

 

At no point have I ever been proven wrong, "but you don't try" I have tried in the past, in what has usually been a very awkward devoid of charm way.

So go on a trip, enrol in some courses - get yourself involved in activities where you have to learn interactions and learn some charm!!!

 

The try part has often just landed me with the bitter feeling of projected pity towards me,

Well, honestly if you give out the kind of response at the end of your post about 'nobody I like likes me' then yeah, you'll get pity and it's negative so people aren't going to hang around long if you send out negativity.

Even just figuring out a different response would serve you better - it'd be one step on a learning curve to lose your negativity.

I really am not sure what you expect when you dish lines like that out except for the response you get.

Life isn't all about you and really need to grow up and learn that.

You ooze negativity in your social interactions if you have an excuse like this

for everything and I've never known someone with so many excuses. It's learned behaviour too - you could learn your way out of it but that would required forethought and effort. You don't like effort it seems unless it involves driving or these other activities you say you enjoy.

If only you would take that effort and put it into people (not by dropping everything an helping them do something) but by spending the time of day with them you would see results and improvement in your social interactions over time. It's not going to be an overnight improvement though.

When you say you 'try' I know you don't stick with things.

 

- but that o I'd actually rather someone be rude and nasty than patronising and pitying.

So change your responses to rude and nasty ones then, try that out - you will get rude and nasty in return or people won't want to engage with you (but this is happening already so it's no biggie).

A negative response will first be heard, then pitied, then if that is all that someone hears consistently they will start to offer advice which you perceive as patronising. Continue negatively and it will likely become patronising.

The thing is though, you have power over all and any of this by instead of being negative thinking of something positive to say.

 

 

In terms of said friend I have asserted my position and that sort of nonsense has come to an end, so have the attempts to set me up with all sorts of wholly incompatible people.

So this is in the past completely and sorted if you are being honest.

Yet, you mention it on here as if it's continuing and say 'think about that for a minute' which from me and likely most folk out there provokes a feeling of pity. See?

Drop this card, don't play it again.

 

I am simply at odd with the market I shop in, the market isn't changing and nor am I but I guess I somehow hope I might be appealing to that market on some level but the lack of fun kills that idea stone dead.

You're in the vegetable market hoping to find a prime piece of salmon and you're determined to stay there and keep looking for salmon.

 

Personal growth, please tell me what that is?

Personal EMOTIONAL growth.

Learning to read people, learning that what you say directly imputs what you get in return. Eg. a negative comment provokes someone to feel sorry for someone (pity).

Learning how to make others feel good, learning how others can make you feel good - all the group type settings I have suggested above plus things like am-dram groups and even presentation skills courses would help you see how you can achieve that whilst you are practising it.

Life is all trial and error and WE ALL are learning new things, new interactions every single day. The difference is in being open to it. You are not open to it, you stay the same, make excuses and say negative things constantly.

You are so good at making excuses you really could put that amazing effort (because it actually is a strength the effort you put in) into something else - like researching a trip or a course. The negativity too, you make a lot of effort to put that across, use the same effort to become more positive.

 

 

Growth for me is achieving things, there is a lot I have managed to do and beaten the odds in the process and its driven by me not giving up because along the way I have seen improvements to spur me on. I have never seen those improvements at dating ever,

This is because you don't try for long enough and also your focus should be on social interactions initially, not on dating.

You need to get in a car and learn to drive, you need to be of legal age to drive, you need a provisional licence before you can drive legally on the road, you need driving lessons and to pass two tests before you can legally drive on the road on your own. You need to be a good river and practise and spend time on it to get to the stage of racing a car on a public circuit for real.

It's all the steps to get you on the road that it takes. You did all of this and began back at the first bit, grew and took the baby steps to get there.

It is just the same with interacting with people and then with a first meet, a first date, dating and getting into a relationship, working on that relationship to make it a good one or quitting because it's a bad one.

It's all a process but without learning social interaction skills and keeping on improving at them then you're not getting over the first bit but you want a relationship now - big gap. You can't expect it to happen, it just doesn't and hasn't happened like that for any of us.

 

I can smile and try make people laugh but it comes off as odd.

That's why you need to land yourself in situations where you have to and can practise, think about it, take time, use that effort you use so well and channel it differently.

 

Nothing I do seems to bring any other outcome. When people stand in front of me and tell me "oh it doesn't make an difference what he has, its about him the person" but in the same breath go off and chase the next guy because what he has...then moan on later he only wanted one thing. Sorry I find that whole thing quite hard to swallow and find it even harder to find any sort of sympathy either.

So now we're at the nice guy/jerk point.

Self professed nice guys are never nice.

People can turn out to be jerks but actually, those jerks I have dated were the ones who were self professed nice guys.

You appear to consider yourself a nice guy. You do appear to be in some areas but I see a negative guy. Negative is not sexy nor appealing and even just over the course of a first meet/date a few interactions it comes out and is easy to see. You are so well practised at it that it's second nature.

 

 

Then I look around and see the apparent ease some guys have at getting what they want, I think I have met probably two dozen guys who seem to get whatever they want always. Must be a great talent to have but when I see how they get what they want and the methods I just look on is disdain. I simply would not indulge in the level of half truth and BS employed by some of these people, added to which the utter superficial way they go about this.

They've learned social interactions though. Not great ones as yet, they're still learning. Doesn't mean they aren't putting the effort in and you can sure as hell bet that when they find someone right for them all the BS gets dropped and they then want to be the best man they can be - in all ways.

 

 

I don't get it, I admit I simply don't, perhaps I am just stupid but the whole mechanics of attracting people means nothing to me, makes zero sense.

That's why you need to learn and experience human interactions. learn the ebb and flow of it.

 

I wish I had had those late te

en years to learn this when everyone else did because maybe then I would have enjoyed more success today.

Did you time travel to become 33?

I don't know anyone over the age of 19 who didn't have late teen years.

It depends what you did with them.

I, for one realised I was going to become older most likely and that I was sick of my social interactions being poor and being so shy.

Because I knew I could either do nothing and live with me as I was or I could jump out of mu comfort zone and set myself a goal over a time limit - but then to extend that goal out to forever (to make my experience a thing that I keep working on and keep growing from - whilst still making mistakes along the way!).

You could do this and start this right now if you choose to. It can be done at any age, not just late teens.

 

So, how about begin your learning curve now?

There are plenty of things here in my post you could pick up and roll with and put your own positives into without excuses. Or, think of something you could do yourself - a course or a group or something to help throw you into a social arena to help you on your learning curve. Take some time to think of some things you could do and come back and tell us about them.

 

I would love to see a positive response from you.

I have put a lot of thought and effort into this post (there is no offence intended here - it's just what I see) so a positive from you would be your way to repay me for you being considerate of the time I have spent.

It would be a positive social interaction.

[ZA Dater]

Hmm, no, I wouldn't go directly to left field if I wasn't sure right field was all in order first.

Many folk have suggested you up sticks and move and without trawling back I can't recall if you have made a response to that. If you have I suspect the response would be 'it's not going to be any different wherever I go'.

Have you ever even taken a trip to Russia or the US?

Perhaps you just really don't fit in with the culture where you are but if you completely won't take a trip, get involved with people too (there's a tonne of trips for people to go on in groups out there) then you don't know.

I've never linked anytime you have mentioned Russians to the mail order bride route, you have though so that'll be why others do.

Below you talk about paid dates - that will also be another reason others 'think' you mean mail order. Take responsibility for that ZA.

Research the cultures in Russia and the US, look into group trips, find something amazing to go and do and with a group of people. Only being around humans will help you improve on interactions with fellow humans. Notice I say humans, not solely women.

 

 

 

Er, well a paid date is a business proposition so a paid date will only lead to further paid dates - surely you'd realise that.

An escort is there for company/sex/whatever they offer, they are not life coaches there to teach you how to be xyz, nor are they likely to become a dating prospect.

They are also not a great way to experience sex for a newbie.

I'm pretty sure I have mentioned to you before a place in Holland I think it is where sex therapists talk, teach, train, show and help men experience sex in a comfortable environment and at their own pace.

That is something else you could look into as a way to get the virgin title out of the way and at the same time learn a tonne about interactions and relationships and how to read people.

 

 

 

Yes, so why do you do it all the time with your constant excuses?

 

 

Rejection is all a part of dating and no one that you date is obligated to give you constructive criticism. Dating is not a previously agreed contract. It's about feelings, emotions, vulnerability.

 

 

You stop before you even start. If you are not willing to attempt to change this attitude then you have to accept you will always be a virgin and always have no relationships with women.

 

 

So change one of these things, take a wine tasting course, take some dance lessons. Both of these things will also integrate you amongst fellow human beings and help you to learn interactions. There is absolutely nothing stopping you getting enrolled in a course and sticking it out except YOURSELF.

 

 

So go on a trip, enrol in some courses - get yourself involved in activities where you have to learn interactions and learn some charm!!!

 

 

Well, honestly if you give out the kind of response at the end of your post about 'nobody I like likes me' then yeah, you'll get pity and it's negative so people aren't going to hang around long if you send out negativity.

Even just figuring out a different response would serve you better - it'd be one step on a learning curve to lose your negativity.

I really am not sure what you expect when you dish lines like that out except for the response you get.

Life isn't all about you and really need to grow up and learn that.

You ooze negativity in your social interactions if you have an excuse like this

for everything and I've never known someone with so many excuses. It's learned behaviour too - you could learn your way out of it but that would required forethought and effort. You don't like effort it seems unless it involves driving or these other activities you say you enjoy.

If only you would take that effort and put it into people (not by dropping everything an helping them do something) but by spending the time of day with them you would see results and improvement in your social interactions over time. It's not going to be an overnight improvement though.

When you say you 'try' I know you don't stick with things.

 

 

So change your responses to rude and nasty ones then, try that out - you will get rude and nasty in return or people won't want to engage with you (but this is happening already so it's no biggie).

A negative response will first be heard, then pitied, then if that is all that someone hears consistently they will start to offer advice which you perceive as patronising. Continue negatively and it will likely become patronising.

The thing is though, you have power over all and any of this by instead of being negative thinking of something positive to say.

 

 

 

So this is in the past completely and sorted if you are being honest.

Yet, you mention it on here as if it's continuing and say 'think about that for a minute' which from me and likely most folk out there provokes a feeling of pity. See?

Drop this card, don't play it again.

 

 

You're in the vegetable market hoping to find a prime piece of salmon and you're determined to stay there and keep looking for salmon.

 

 

Personal EMOTIONAL growth.

Learning to read people, learning that what you say directly imputs what you get in return. Eg. a negative comment provokes someone to feel sorry for someone (pity).

Learning how to make others feel good, learning how others can make you feel good - all the group type settings I have suggested above plus things like am-dram groups and even presentation skills courses would help you see how you can achieve that whilst you are practising it.

Life is all trial and error and WE ALL are learning new things, new interactions every single day. The difference is in being open to it. You are not open to it, you stay the same, make excuses and say negative things constantly.

You are so good at making excuses you really could put that amazing effort (because it actually is a strength the effort you put in) into something else - like researching a trip or a course. The negativity too, you make a lot of effort to put that across, use the same effort to become more positive.

 

 

 

This is because you don't try for long enough and also your focus should be on social interactions initially, not on dating.

You need to get in a car and learn to drive, you need to be of legal age to drive, you need a provisional licence before you can drive legally on the road, you need driving lessons and to pass two tests before you can legally drive on the road on your own. You need to be a good river and practise and spend time on it to get to the stage of racing a car on a public circuit for real.

It's all the steps to get you on the road that it takes. You did all of this and began back at the first bit, grew and took the baby steps to get there.

It is just the same with interacting with people and then with a first meet, a first date, dating and getting into a relationship, working on that relationship to make it a good one or quitting because it's a bad one.

It's all a process but without learning social interaction skills and keeping on improving at them then you're not getting over the first bit but you want a relationship now - big gap. You can't expect it to happen, it just doesn't and hasn't happened like that for any of us.

 

 

That's why you need to land yourself in situations where you have to and can practise, think about it, take time, use that effort you use so well and channel it differently.

 

 

So now we're at the nice guy/jerk point.

Self professed nice guys are never nice.

People can turn out to be jerks but actually, those jerks I have dated were the ones who were self professed nice guys.

You appear to consider yourself a nice guy. You do appear to be in some areas but I see a negative guy. Negative is not sexy nor appealing and even just over the course of a first meet/date a few interactions it comes out and is easy to see. You are so well practised at it that it's second nature.

 

 

 

They've learned social interactions though. Not great ones as yet, they're still learning. Doesn't mean they aren't putting the effort in and you can sure as hell bet that when they find someone right for them all the BS gets dropped and they then want to be the best man they can be - in all ways.

 

 

 

That's why you need to learn and experience human interactions. learn the ebb and flow of it.

 

I wish I had had those late te

Did you time travel to become 33?

I don't know anyone over the age of 19 who didn't have late teen years.

It depends what you did with them.

I, for one realised I was going to become older most likely and that I was sick of my social interactions being poor and being so shy.

Because I knew I could either do nothing and live with me as I was or I could jump out of mu comfort zone and set myself a goal over a time limit - but then to extend that goal out to forever (to make my experience a thing that I keep working on and keep growing from - whilst still making mistakes along the way!).

You could do this and start this right now if you choose to. It can be done at any age, not just late teens.

 

So, how about begin your learning curve now?

There are plenty of things here in my post you could pick up and roll with and put your own positives into without excuses. Or, think of something you could do yourself - a course or a group or something to help throw you into a social arena to help you on your learning curve. Take some time to think of some things you could do and come back and tell us about them.

 

I would love to see a positive response from you.

I have put a lot of thought and effort into this post (there is no offence intended here - it's just what I see) so a positive from you would be your way to repay me for you being considerate of the time I have spent.

It would be a positive social interaction.

 

That is indeed a very comprehensive reply.

 

 

Ok positive, this might surprise you but I do have a list of positives and things I work on, one of them is being more outgoing, I try to be at least what is HARD is when you cant relate to people and others cant relate to you.

 

 

You probably need some context in the way I live, most of my life is constructed around work, the social club I run and blog I have created, the club I have built up considerably in the last 4 years and I keep looking to grow it. There is direct synergy to some extent between work and this club. Yes, I'll go cycling, I'll go to the beach, I'll even go and sit in a bar from time to time.

 

 

You are right interaction can be good but it can also be extremely sobering when neither can relate. Do you suggest I just pretend to be interested in things, study them to gain some knowledge?

 

 

Trips, that's on the cards but only after I have achieved what I want to work wise, which is an ever moving target at the moment but a target nonetheless. Accomplishment makes me happy so a large part of me lives of chasing that, which in some respect has made the want to do trips secondary. Which doesn't make sense to many people, I sacrificed many trips when I was studying....to study.

 

 

I'll do a trip in the next 5 years or so.

 

 

I will say this, I have been playing around with Tinder and it appears I do have some physical appeal in Northern Europe, which is a surprise because I apparently have none here.

 

 

Make no mistake I enjoy life here and even if I could I wouldn't really want to move anywhere else. Every place has pros and cons and really if the con here is dating I could probably learn to accept it and yes its not so terrible, I keep myself busy doing solo activities and time takes care of itself. Certain people can bring me out of my shell but they are relatively few and it mostly happens with common interests hence my focus on that.

 

 

For better or worse I am human and I do sometimes look at a great sunset as I run and all the couples huddled together and feel a pang of loneliness but a lot of that is cancelled out when I remember all the horrid dates I have been on.

 

 

I am referred to as negative I'll concede that but its always been me, pragmatic, there are a lot of reasons for this, none of which I want to disclose here. I do make attempts to be positive but whatever I seem to say is summed up as negative.

 

 

Do I put effort into dating, interesting question and honestly I will say its a half effort. Which is wrong I know BUT the reason I do it is because when I heavily invest in it and it goes wrong that negativity leaks into everything else I do and I simply cannot have that. Hence its actually a lot easier and safer to try construct some form happy medium being around people who respect me to some degree but have no romantic/strong friendship in me.

 

 

Paid dates, I did that to see if they would solve the sometimes lonely problem, which they didn't. My entire way of thinking is business orientated, some say its cold and maybe it is. Again I suppose its a big shield.

 

 

I will say this too, the effort you made and the encouragement does mean a lot to me. If you knew more about my life you might understand why I appreciate it so much.

 

 

I am trying new social ideas to try and meet people with common interests, going to an event next month and I only know one person there so it should be interesting.

 

 

The bold part, here goes, I try, in fact I have for a long time gone to the very places I dislike to try connect with people. I really did try, tried speaking to random people and the responses I got made me instantly regret doing so. I heavily regret not making more friends when it was easier to do so, getting involved in events now I will try again but I feel SO out of step.

 

 

I believe people all start out of nice, society moulds them and experiences mould them.

 

 

Probably the biggest thing for me is the effort versus reward. I don't mean this in a nasty way, two years ago I embarked on a social change, change of style and change of outlook and I have TRIED to stick to that, people close to me (there are a handful) have noticed the difference and I have worked hard it but the results still seem the same because I still haven't found any sort of social niche where my personality and interest work.

[elaine567]

I try, in fact I have for a long time gone to the very places I dislike to try connect with people. I really did try, tried speaking to random people and the responses I got made me instantly regret doing so.

 

Even the most gregarious do not speak to "random" people unless it is their job to do so.

People usually choose to speak to strangers who are giving off the signs that they are open to being spoken to.

It may not be the person that is giving off the open signs that they are actually interested in but it may open up a path so that they can get to speak to him/her eventually.

That is why charming and well liked people will talk to anyone, if they can charm her grandma, her father, her friend, her dog then so much the better.

 

If you have little or no idea of body language and are approaching people who are giving off hostile or unfriendly vibes, they you are bound to get poor results.

Once you get to know how people are, then you instinctively know who to talk to and who to leave alone.

BUT if you come across as being genuinely friendly and caring and push the right buttons, you can often crack the toughest nuts.

[ZA Dater]

Even the most gregarious do not speak to "random" people unless it is their job to do so.

People usually choose to speak to strangers who are giving off the signs that they are open to being spoken to.

It may not be the person that is giving off the open signs that they are actually interested in but it may open up a path so that they can get to speak to him/her eventually.

That is why charming and well liked people will talk to anyone, if they can charm her grandma, her father, her friend, her dog then so much the better.

 

If you have little or no idea of body language and are approaching people who are giving off hostile or unfriendly vibes, they you are bound to get poor results.

Once you get to know how people are, then you instinctively know who to talk to and who to leave alone.

BUT if you come across as being genuinely friendly and caring and push the right buttons, you can often crack the toughest nuts.

 

 

1: Yes I have seen this, a few people I know are quite charming and pull this off well.

 

 

2: I just leave them all alone if someone speaks to me great if not then I enjoy my own company till I get bored. Agreed on genuinely friendly but sometimes there is false friendly too.

[ZA Dater]

Even the most gregarious do not speak to "random" people unless it is their job to do so.

People usually choose to speak to strangers who are giving off the signs that they are open to being spoken to.

It may not be the person that is giving off the open signs that they are actually interested in but it may open up a path so that they can get to speak to him/her eventually.

That is why charming and well liked people will talk to anyone, if they can charm her grandma, her father, her friend, her dog then so much the better.

 

If you have little or no idea of body language and are approaching people who are giving off hostile or unfriendly vibes, they you are bound to get poor results.

Once you get to know how people are, then you instinctively know who to talk to and who to leave alone.

BUT if you come across as being genuinely friendly and caring and push the right buttons, you can often crack the toughest nuts.

 

 

 

I have learnt this skill to an extent in the corporate world and when it comes to getting deals done and dealing with people I don't know I don't have any issue at all. Probably because there is a common interest/objective.

 

 

The brunette walking down the road, there isn't really either of those so there doesn't seem to be much to talk about, so its easier to walk past and focus on the next meeting/objective.

[elaine567]

2: I just leave them all alone if someone speaks to me great if not then I enjoy my own company till I get bored.

 

But this is all just passive on your part and has got you nowhere.

We can all go sit in a public place, with the book, the magazine, the tablet, the phone, the headphones, the "wall" between us and the world, and wait for someone else to notice us or not, depending on our agenda, but we are not 33 yo virgins looking for a woman are we?

It is not in your interests to passively wait for something to happen, you need to be more active.

 

AS for genuine vs fake friendliness - your attitude is again looking at it from a negative point of view.

[ZA Dater]

But this is all just passive on your part and has got you nowhere.

We can all go sit in a public place, with the book, the magazine, the tablet, the phone, the headphones, the "wall" between us and the world, and wait for someone else to notice us or not, depending on our agenda, but we are not 33 yo virgins looking for a woman are we?

It is not in your interests to passively wait for something to happen, you need to be more active.

 

AS for genuine vs fake friendliness - your attitude is again looking at it from a negative point of view.

 

Its not, I have seen people I know well sprout the biggest fakest nonsense in order to try and woo someone. Not negative at all, its how it happens sometimes.

 

 

My assumption being I should not approach people who have a wall around them?

 

 

Perhaps someone here can answer the question of how to turn rejection into positive?

 

 

People say positive this and positive that, its easy to be positive about things which are so, the novel I am writing is positive, its hard work but bit by bit its coming together. Work is positive as things continue to move quickly towards the objectives I have in mind. My other achievements are positive.

 

 

I don't go out and preach about these things, sure I tell people about them in the hope I might actually get asked about them but all that actually happens is I spend date after date having to take interest in other people rather than them taking interest in me, from that point of view I may as well just do pay dates where at least I can get a choice of people I actually find physically attractive.

 

 

Of course someone will say I am not being positive now but its mostly fact in my own circumstance.

 

 

But yes, its about having fun, people want to have fun and laugh and be light hearted and I am the very opposite of those things, absolutely and totally. Then again maybe I can make a success of writing books that I live vicariously through.

[Miss Spider]

Maybe easier 'cuz a lot of women really want to get out of Russia. Once they have their own citizenship in your country see how easy it is to make them stay w you xD

Edited August 18, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[preraph]

They won't marry him unless he's rich anyway.

[Blanco]

OP, I think you almost subconsciously seek/desire what you can't have because it allows you to justify clinging on to these deeply-ingrained beliefs about dating and relationships. You may not be happy with "how it is," but you still find it more comfortable to stay your course, where you're convinced that most people must be inauthentic to have a romantic relationship.

[ZA Dater]

OP, I think you almost subconsciously seek/desire what you can't have because it allows you to justify clinging on to these deeply-ingrained beliefs about dating and relationships. You may not be happy with "how it is," but you still find it more comfortable to stay your course, where you're convinced that most people must be inauthentic to have a romantic relationship.

 

Well if you had seen the level of BS some people resort to in order to try impress people you would understand what I trying to say by that. The reality my own exposure and against popular belief I did spent time with friends in bars and clubs made it quite clear being the polite well mannered guy wouldn't really get you anywhere. Throw some cash around, arrive in a flashy car and suddenly you are everyone's friend.

 

 

I have worn both shoes, the polite guy and the flashy guy and while the latter makes you feel good, I know its false so any goodness that I might feel is short lived when logic arrives which it does quite quickly.

 

 

Actually I don't cling to many things but I do cling to some form of hope that one day the qualities I have might be desired by someone I desire. In the meantime I have other priorities/ambitions, none of which make me feel as useless as dating does.

 

 

Ultimately I'd love someone to cut me some slack but lets face it that never really happens and probably shouldn't in a world with endless options.

 

 

I think its better to chase something difficult than chase nothing at all and there are some people who do make me feel better about being alone, some that do understand what its like so when the scales are balanced they aren't quite as out of balance as they seem.

 

 

I'd say no area in my life contains quite as many regrets as dating does, chances missed, incorrect comments, wrong decisions, apathy, incorrect beliefs, I am realistic, those exist and hiding them is fruitless I just leant to accept them. One decision I made maybe a year or so ago could have changed things but instead of being bold I chose the no rejection route.

 

 

Ok lets get the opinion. Do I bother chasing someone who has her pick of any guy she wants? Dynamic, doesn't drink, people centric, philanthropic, same sort of age as me.

[BaileyB]

You find someone who you want to date - someone who you think is attractive, intelligent, fun to be with, and generally... A nice person.

 

With any luck, this person will also think the same of you and she will want to spend time with you.

 

Do things that you both enjoy. Talk to her, try to have some fun together, and let the feelings grow...

 

Doing anything differently, will cause you endless frustration and heartache. It really is not rocket science. Yes, it can be challenging to find this person... But, you will never find her by sitting at home reading your books.

 

Why this constant over analysis and negativity? Go out, meet people, and try to have some fun.

Edited August 18, 2017 by BaileyB

[normal person]

Well if you had seen the level of BS some people resort to in order to try impress people you would understand what I trying to say by that.

 

Some, or all? Surely you've seen examples of sensible people being in relationships, haven't you? Or is every relationship you've ever seen been the function of a man being inauthentic? Why do you always omit the examples of relationships where the men aren't vile? They're much more common than the ones you always cite.

 

I have worn both shoes, the polite guy and the flashy guy and while the latter makes you feel good, I know its false so any goodness that I might feel is short lived when logic arrives which it does quite quickly.

 

You're still making it seem like the are only two archetypes of men are either "polite, respectful, nice, and unsuccessful," or "flashy, rude, inauthentic, and successful." You're a smart guy and you know the world isn't this black and white. Stop using it as an excuse. Consider the nuances you're conveniently ignoring.

 

Ultimately I'd love someone to cut me some slack but lets face it that never really happens and probably shouldn't in a world with endless options.

 

For someone to cut you some slack, you first need to stop thinking that they're out of your reach. If you want them to give you the benefit of the doubt, they need to respect you, not pity you. And if you don't even believe in yourself enough to give an honest, fighting effort, they'll pity you.

 

Ok lets get the opinion. Do I bother chasing someone who has her pick of any guy she wants? Dynamic, doesn't drink, people centric, philanthropic, same sort of age as me.

 

Do you really have to ask? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

 

If she has her pick, confidently show her why should she choose you. Or better yet, flip the script and make her wonder how she can get you to choose her. This is a golden opportunity. Just be confident and don't assume she's out of your reach. If you believe that, then it's true.

 

I think we all have our collective fingers crossed for you. Good luck and have fun.

[Blanco]

Why do you always omit the examples of relationships where the men aren't vile?

 

Because they conflict with the narrative he insists on perpetuating.

[GemmaUK]

It's good that you're being more outgoing.

You must remember that not everyone is going to like everyone but if you constantly find it hard to relate that's why you should work on social interactions - read up on body language and micro expressions (Paul Ekman).

Maybe if you studied those things you'd be more interested in social interaction full stop.

 

Yes, try out new things, new social groups - you just don't know whether you might find some fun in something like that - but also being in a new social circle would also give you a chance to put effort into getting to know people and time to practice being social generally.

 

The social group you run - as you run it then - well it's a good thing but also you could be seen as the barista in the coffee shop who Miss Customer likes but can't tell whether he is showing interest in her or whether he is being friendly because it's his job.

Other social groups which you don't run would therefore perhaps be better for practicing social skills and awareness.

 

So you won't take a trip for '5 years or so'. Why such a long time? You'll be almost 40 by then. If you were to go on an amazing trip with others who you don't know you would end up with some excellent stories to talk about for one thing - which will make you more interesting as a person. Travelling/holidays is one of those things which opens up lots of conversations.

I bet if you met someone you would be willing to go on a holiday - but that tells me you're delaying your life until you find a girlfriend.

 

Do I put effort into dating, interesting question

 

I didn't actually ask that question and I don't think you are ready to jump into dating (which was part of the point of my last post)- I think you need to work on being more positive, speaking more positively (and realising the impact of your negativity on people) and working on general growth in social interactions.

 

and honestly I will say its a half effort.

If I feel like a man is putting half effort into dating me I'm gone.

You don't need to over invest and become smothering or put her on a pedestal but if you do go on a date then you should give it more than half effort.

Each person is different, each situation is a new one. You could take the newness from that to be positive about it but instead it sounds like you drag around your baggage on a date.

 

I am trying new social ideas to try and meet people with common interests, going to an event next month and I only know one person there so it should be interesting.

Good This is what you need to be doing. Throw yourself into it and have fun!

 

 

The bold part, here goes, I try, in fact I have for a long time gone to the very places I dislike to try connect with people. I really did try, tried speaking to random people and the responses I got made me instantly regret doing so. I heavily regret not making more friends when it was easier to do so, getting involved in events now I will try again but I feel SO out of step.

You always mention going to clubs though - you hate them and they're not a place to get to know people over time. Avoid clubs.

 

Probably the biggest thing for me is the effort versus reward. I don't mean this in a nasty way, two years ago I embarked on a social change, change of style and change of outlook and I have TRIED to stick to that, people close to me (there are a handful) have noticed the difference and I have worked hard it but the results still seem the same because I still haven't found any sort of social niche where my personality and interest work.

Growth is a process and a slow one and it's not something to do to expect compliments for. It's mainly for you - be the best you can be for you.

 

You still haven't found a social niche - so practice social skills and use the effort you put into being negative into being positive.

Otherwise, go into any new social circle or social group and if you are negative then you'll get the exact result you don't want - pity and people would don't want to be around you.

 

Channel your effort in a positive way - learn it - unlearn the negative.

That alone would really help.

Edited August 19, 2017 by GemmaUK

[Bastile]

You have to get better and reach more of your potential. That's all there is to it. Avoidance in terms of ordering a mail order bride simply won't work.

 

I have a fair amount of experience with Eastern European women. They have probably the greatest game out of all women as a standard. I learnt a lot from them the hard way (and so will you)

 

Don't think it's like dating your typical western woman, with a reliance on feminism for her value system.

 

Those woman are very strong females who know how to use their femininity to get what they want in a seductive manner - rather than a confrontational one. They understand how to compliment a male energy, and they expect a man to understand how to compliment their femininity. There's much less room for error on that with them.

 

It's like a man that has never driven before, trying to drive a Porsche.

 

It's completely different. And a comfort of using money as some sort of leverage over those girls will be a false security. She'll quickly have you wrapped around her finger. And if you don't handle your business, you'll just get chewed up, spit out, and the carcass left by the side of the road.

 

If you can't handle a simple Tinder date, there is no way you will be able to handle one of those women in a marriage. Not a chance. Learn to walk before you can run.

 

I would suggest actually pushing yourself to see what you are capable of. Learn a little about yourself and life.

 

Still want to start a family, and feel the same way at 40? Sure, consider it. But right now, it's just plain old giving up. You are letting yourself down.

 

It somewhat reminds me of being a kid, wanting to play the mega-drive during the day. Getting my dad kick me out of the house to go outside instead. You really just need a kick up the backside, imo.

 

Personal growth will only happen outside of your comfort zone. If you are still saying the same thing on here that you were last year, and the year before, then you are doing it wrong. No excuses.

[ZA Dater]

You have to get better and reach more of your potential. That's all there is to it. Avoidance in terms of ordering a mail order bride simply won't work.

 

I have a fair amount of experience with Eastern European women. They have probably the greatest game out of all women as a standard. I learnt a lot from them the hard way (and so will you)

 

Don't think it's like dating your typical western woman, with a reliance on feminism for her value system.

 

Those woman are very strong females who know how to use their femininity to get what they want in a seductive manner - rather than a confrontational one. They understand how to compliment a male energy, and they expect a man to understand how to compliment their femininity. There's much less room for error on that with them.

 

It's like a man that has never driven before, trying to drive a Porsche.

 

It's completely different. And a comfort of using money as some sort of leverage over those girls will be a false security. She'll quickly have you wrapped around her finger. And if you don't handle your business, you'll just get chewed up, spit out, and the carcass left by the side of the road.

 

If you can't handle a simple Tinder date, there is no way you will be able to handle one of those women in a marriage. Not a chance. Learn to walk before you can run.

 

I would suggest actually pushing yourself to see what you are capable of. Learn a little about yourself and life.

 

Still want to start a family, and feel the same way at 40? Sure, consider it. But right now, it's just plain old giving up. You are letting yourself down.

 

It somewhat reminds me of being a kid, wanting to play the mega-drive during the day. Getting my dad kick me out of the house to go outside instead. You really just need a kick up the backside, imo.

 

Personal growth will only happen outside of your comfort zone. If you are still saying the same thing on here that you were last year, and the year before, then you are doing it wrong. No excuses.

 

All the Eastern European ladies I have met have had vastly more appeal simply because most come from incredibly tough backgrounds and there is a real appreciation for life and dare I say it a much softer side than most of the other ladies I come across.

 

 

The idea I had wasn't really avoidance it was a way to try and get some of the dating experience I simply cant seem to find any other conventional way. Ultimately I am looking for that experience which lead me to seeking arrangement. Everything I do I try and work to get the best experience I can which is where I think a lot of dating has gone wrong.

 

 

I probably need to get past the simply disinterested jaded viewpoint I have at the moment but its tough, especially when I am reminded of the lack of success so often.

[ZA Dater]

You find someone who you want to date - someone who you think is attractive, intelligent, fun to be with, and generally... A nice person.

 

With any luck, this person will also think the same of you and she will want to spend time with you.

 

Do things that you both enjoy. Talk to her, try to have some fun together, and let the feelings grow...

 

Doing anything differently, will cause you endless frustration and heartache. It really is not rocket science. Yes, it can be challenging to find this person... But, you will never find her by sitting at home reading your books.

 

Why this constant over analysis and negativity? Go out, meet people, and try to have some fun.

 

 

I know what you mean but you and I know its not really quite as simple depending on what one is looking for

 

 

I truly wish someone I liked actually liked me but that's never the case, no matter how I project myself and its this which has lead to those negative feelings which have been pointed out here. Its so hard to chase and its always: NO.

 

 

Forced introductions don't really help either, its all good and well being introduced to people but my experience is when people have done this to me, its always selling the fact I am single than selling who I am. Once, it did work in the latter sense but she had a bf so it was irrelevant anyway.

 

 

Every so often I get glimpses of nice people and they are likeable enough but never single.

[ZA Dater]

Some, or all? Surely you've seen examples of sensible people being in relationships, haven't you? Or is every relationship you've ever seen been the function of a man being inauthentic? Why do you always omit the examples of relationships where the men aren't vile? They're much more common than the ones you always cite.

 

Almost every relationship I have been exposed to has had its foundations in the superficial. Nothing vile about being false, its seems the new normal.

 

You're still making it seem like the are only two archetypes of men are either "polite, respectful, nice, and unsuccessful," or "flashy, rude, inauthentic, and successful." You're a smart guy and you know the world isn't this black and white. Stop using it as an excuse. Consider the nuances you're conveniently ignoring.

 

 

Yes I am going to two extremes but how much middle ground is there really, the reason I say this if I sell everything I have accomplished I stand a better chance than if I sell who I am. Which has me wondering what people actually want.

 

 

 

For someone to cut you some slack, you first need to stop thinking that they're out of your reach. If you want them to give you the benefit of the doubt, they need to respect you, not pity you. And if you don't even believe in yourself enough to give an honest, fighting effort, they'll pity you.

 

Respect is something I do seem to get, probably because my single minded approach to thing, the same approach which is found wanting here, I don't generally give up on things and the rest of the respect I get is simply because I go out to do things properly and unlike others I try put in an effort with people around me.

 

 

Do you really have to ask? You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

 

If she has her pick, confidently show her why should she choose you. Or better yet, flip the script and make her wonder how she can get you to choose her. This is a golden opportunity. Just be confident and don't assume she's out of your reach. If you believe that, then it's true.

 

I think we all have our collective fingers crossed for you. Good luck and have fun.

 

 

I'll think about it, as people I think we would match up well but based on who she has dated in the past....I don't really think I am to that standard and I am simply being honest. As kids we are taught to believe and dream but when it comes to dating I don't dream too much because each time I did and really tried to get there I just faced more disappointment which is why if someone goes for coffee its a win, if I have a nice chat with someone its a win. Those are the increments I was talking about earlier in the thread.

 

Just typed in bold to try address each point properly.

[ZA Dater]

It's good that you're being more outgoing.

You must remember that not everyone is going to like everyone but if you constantly find it hard to relate that's why you should work on social interactions - read up on body language and micro expressions (Paul Ekman).

Maybe if you studied those things you'd be more interested in social interaction full stop.

 

Yes, try out new things, new social groups - you just don't know whether you might find some fun in something like that - but also being in a new social circle would also give you a chance to put effort into getting to know people and time to practice being social generally.

 

The social group you run - as you run it then - well it's a good thing but also you could be seen as the barista in the coffee shop who Miss Customer likes but can't tell whether he is showing interest in her or whether he is being friendly because it's his job.

Other social groups which you don't run would therefore perhaps be better for practicing social skills and awareness.

 

So you won't take a trip for '5 years or so'. Why such a long time? You'll be almost 40 by then. If you were to go on an amazing trip with others who you don't know you would end up with some excellent stories to talk about for one thing - which will make you more interesting as a person. Travelling/holidays is one of those things which opens up lots of conversations.

I bet if you met someone you would be willing to go on a holiday - but that tells me you're delaying your life until you find a girlfriend.

 

 

 

I didn't actually ask that question and I don't think you are ready to jump into dating (which was part of the point of my last post)- I think you need to work on being more positive, speaking more positively (and realising the impact of your negativity on people) and working on general growth in social interactions.

 

 

If I feel like a man is putting half effort into dating me I'm gone.

You don't need to over invest and become smothering or put her on a pedestal but if you do go on a date then you should give it more than half effort.

Each person is different, each situation is a new one. You could take the newness from that to be positive about it but instead it sounds like you drag around your baggage on a date.

 

 

Good This is what you need to be doing. Throw yourself into it and have fun!

 

 

 

You always mention going to clubs though - you hate them and they're not a place to get to know people over time. Avoid clubs.

 

 

Growth is a process and a slow one and it's not something to do to expect compliments for. It's mainly for you - be the best you can be for you.

 

You still haven't found a social niche - so practice social skills and use the effort you put into being negative into being positive.

Otherwise, go into any new social circle or social group and if you are negative then you'll get the exact result you don't want - pity and people would don't want to be around you.

 

Channel your effort in a positive way - learn it - unlearn the negative.

That alone would really help.

 

I am just going to branch out to other groups within my hobby, see how that goes, by and large its a younger group of people but there is common interest.

 

 

There are no single people in the club I run. Not one.

 

 

I have thing at the moment which are more important than travelling, deals and other things which I am working on which are medium term in nature. Perhaps I should admit that material things do make me happy, buying something nice does make me happy, a good meal does make me happy and nice clothes do make me happy.

 

 

I just probably just have a hopelessly idealistic list of expectations and things I find attractive, which all comes from spending too much time with people right at the top of the dating market. Its been interesting and perhaps I have just become jaded as a result.

 

 

The person I like at the moment sits right at the very top of that market, she can have whoever she wants, no effort required at all.

[GemmaUK]

The person I like at the moment sits right at the very top of that market, she can have whoever she wants, no effort required at all.

 

There will be effort on her part, to someone she is interested in she will at the very least display signs of interest and she'll flirt with a guy and treat him differently to those she is not attracted to.

Flirt with her, read her reactions - her expressions and body language and also see how she behaves around other men. If she behaves the same with you all then you can decipher that she doesn't see any of you as dating/relationship material.

[ZA Dater]

There will be effort on her part, to someone she is interested in she will at the very least display signs of interest and she'll flirt with a guy and treat him differently to those she is not attracted to.

Flirt with her, read her reactions - her expressions and body language and also see how she behaves around other men. If she behaves the same with you all then you can decipher that she doesn't see any of you as dating/relationship material.

 

For a variety of reasons I am choosing not to pursue her (one of which is she is going out with some model). What you say is correct though and I do look for those sorts of things and have done in the past, unfortunately I have never seen any of the signs with anyone I like.

 

 

Your advice is very good, maybe I just need to somehow accept that very average, not physically attractive person is the best I can do, rather than constantly striving for what I do find attractive. Really pains me to type that.

 

 

For all my inexperience I do from time to time look for any obvious sort of sign and rather begrudgingly I have seen them sometimes but really they were from people I had no interest in at all.

[GoodOnPaper]

Your advice is very good, maybe I just need to somehow accept that very average, not physically attractive person is the best I can do, rather than constantly striving for what I do find attractive. Really pains me to type that.

 

Be careful with this approach. Even if you find a woman you like who wants to date you, in the back of your mind you will always be thinking of her as "very average, not physically attractive". Not a particularly healthy mindset with which to start a relationship.

 

Of course, it's probably a common occupational hazard for struggling guys - we're told to take who we can get but then somehow fall head-over-heels for them after we know we've "lowered our standards". My attempt to solve this paradox hasn't been that successful - maybe others have good suggestions.

[elaine567]

Your advice is very good, maybe I just need to somehow accept that very average, not physically attractive person is the best I can do, rather than constantly striving for what I do find attractive. Really pains me to type that.

 

That is the reality of life and most people have to accept that they are "average". I see here on LS, many people dissing "averageness" as if it is the bottom of the pile but it is obviously not.

I guess if we were to actually view some of those "10s" and smokin' hot babes that every man on here seems to date, we would be in for a few shocks and I guess we would be underwhelmed.

 

Just like we have to accept that we are not going to hang a real Van Gogh or Picasso in our living room, we have to accept our place in the pecking order of dating.

Discounting all and sundry as they are not "top class" is madness, especially when you know you are far from that "standard" yourself.

It is fine to have a crush on an "unobtainable" woman at 18, but at 33?

 

You are again preventing yourself from finding a mate, by putting an obstacle, in the shape of a "top model", in your own way.