When you like what you cant have?

[BaileyB]

I think you will be very lonely standing your ground...

 

And I'm not saying don't date someone who you don't find attractive, or enjoy their company...

 

But, if EVERYONE you date doesn't meet your standards, then... something is wrong with your expectations.

 

I say this as someone who held out for a long time to meet someone. So, I get it... it is worth waiting sometimes. But, you risk never enjoying a relationship.

 

But, let me tell you that when I met my boyfriend, that night I met him and his best friend. Both were single and both were nice guys. His friend, I have since come to learn... is holding out for his "perfect" match. He wants a model-type woman, smart, has money, adventurous... He is 50 and he has never had anything more than some short term relationships. He has nothing and nobody in his life - he has recently left his job to travel because he has no girlfriend, his father just passed away, and he is depressed and hoping to find "something...." he doesn't know what.

 

My boyfriend and I, on the other hand... well, we are not models. We are just two average people, working average jobs, making average money, living two very average lives... but, we have had so much fun together this year. We have dated, traveled, spent time cooking dinner together, going for bike rides, etc...

 

Sometimes, when you decide to give up unrealistic expectations and compromise on certain things, you find happiness...

 

But, by all means... tell me why I'm wrong.

Edited August 27, 2017 by BaileyB

[Blanco]

I think he's used the "no one/everyone" excuse most recently, so now it's time for the "I won't be true to myself if I change anything about myself or my approach" excuse.

[BaileyB]

I think he's used the "no one/everyone" excuse most recently, so now it's time for the "I won't be true to myself if I change anything about myself or my approach" excuse.

 

Indeed! He may feel like he has held his ground and scored a victory by not changing anything about himself, but it will be a lonely victory...

 

Like the old saying - do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy.

Edited August 27, 2017 by BaileyB

[normal person]

Not every single date has been of the random lets meet up type. The majority of the time I do try and get to know them for a few days before meeting up and I have had fantastic conversations on text and mostly it falls flat in person, for some reason someone who was chatty in text isn't or they chat less. I suspect I know why, its call physical attraction which didn't work in person.

 

So now every person's pictures have been so dissimilar to their real life appearance that it makes all conversations fall flat? I've had women willfully deceive me about what they look like and managed to have interesting conversations with them.

 

My conversational skills aren't lacking at all, I can talk about many subjects, barring perhaps clubs and alcohol but what is lacking are people with the same skill, yes that's arrogant but the level of apathy I have been confronted with on dates has made me wonder if some people really don't know anything about the outside world. Yes, you will say that's not important and I should be asking about their life story but honestly I cant recall ever being asked about mine, in fact contrary to what Normal Persons says its actually the exception here rather than the rule for me to be asked anything. Its about talking about them and everything to do with them, which becomes intensely boring after a while.

 

So because they (supposedly) don't or have never asked about your life story, you can't take the higher ground and ask about their's? And if you do, it's always boring? And since you (supposedly) never get asked anything about yourself, why don't you offer some information instead? If she starts talking about something, why don't you give an opinion on it, or talking about an experience you had with it, or relate it to your own life somehow?

 

If my conversational skills were so poor I wouldn't be able to command the attention of an audience when I give speeches or be able to run a club, or a company or two.

 

Yet if your conversational skills were as amazing as you claim them to be, how have you been on countless dates with women with whom you can't hold a conversation with? Surely if you're so good at this, you can extract some entertaining threads from them, can't you? Or, let me guess -- it's the fault of every women for not being interesting, intelligent, or engaging enough for you and no one equipped with even an emotional jaws of life could extract anything of interest from them?

 

 

People keep telling me its a numbers game so I did try that with anyone who was prepared to go out with me, irrespective if I found them attractive which people say is wasting my time but when you find very few people attractive it seemed like a worthwhile compromise to try find some dating experience, little did I know the experiences weren't for the most part what I wanted.

 

Think about the people you find attractive and appealing. Do you think you're their equivalent? Do you think you're what they want? If so, what's stopped you from being with them, and if not, what are you doing about it?

 

 

Ultimately I am becoming less inclined to meet people who don't show any sort of interest in me, I am beyond begging people for dates, selling myself in the hope if I trot out a list of achievements she will be impressed.

 

I'm actually a believer that you should only go out with people who you have at least a moderate amount of interest in ahead of time. But she should also feel the same about you, and if you have to "beg" or "sell yourself," you've already lost with her. Focus on the ones who are more keen.

[BaileyB]

The majority of the time I do try and get to know them for a few days before meeting up and I have had fantastic conversations on text and mostly it falls flat in person, for some reason someone who was chatty in text isn't or they chat less. I suspect I know why, its call physical attraction which didn't work in person.

 

 

Yes, that's arrogant but the level of apathy I have been confronted with on dates has made me wonder if some people really don't know anything about the outside world. Yes, you will say that's not important and I should be asking about their life story but honestly I cant recall ever being asked about mine. Its about talking about them and everything to do with them, which becomes intensely boring after a while.

 

I personally don't believe you can tell too much about someone from texting them you need to actually meet them face to face so endless texting doesn't really interest me because I'd rather know soon if they like me or not and the only way to determine this is to actually meet face to face. The problem comes in, how to show interest, how much I can take of one way conversation, whether the person articulates well or not and whether we have anything common at all?

 

To be very honest, I've been out with guys like you before...

 

When talking by email, text, or on the phone, you think... "Yeah, this guy is interesting. He's intelligent, articulate, seems nice enough... I'll have coffee with him."

 

But then upon meeting, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that it's not going to happen. You may be "assessing" them... whether you are assessing their physical appearance, intelligence, their knowledge of world events, or how they like to eat their food... We are also doing the same to you - "Is he kind to the wait staff, does he ask me questions and keep the conversation flowing, does he smile at me and laugh at my jokes, does he have friends and a good relationship with his mother..."

 

So, to offer the flip side of the coin... I would suggest that we know what you are doing and we know when we don't "measure up" - which you say you feel every time you meet a woman on a date. The attitude that you are "better than everyone you date" will come across on your dates, whether you realize it or not. This kind of attitude is easy to hide when you are texting and getting to know each other. But, it's easy to spot when you meet in person. It wouldn't take very long for a woman to say - this guy is arrogant, entitled, self-centred, rigid, and not someone that I want to get to know... In other words - we can spot this kind of attitude and unrealistic expectations a mile away...

 

So, it goes both ways... You think the conversation is great by text and a let down when you meet in person... It's probably exactly the same for the women you are meeting.

 

And FYI, it probably has very little to do with physical attraction. I've dated some very good looking guys and walked away after one date because I felt that they were arrogant, entitled, and self-centred. "Who" they are can make a person much more unattractive than their actual physical appearance.

Edited August 27, 2017 by BaileyB

[ZA Dater]

To be very honest, I've been out with guys like you before...

 

When talking by email, text, or on the phone, you think... "Yeah, this guy is interesting. He's intelligent, articulate, seems nice enough... I'll have coffee with him."

 

But then upon meeting, it becomes very clear, very quickly, that it's not going to happen. You may be "assessing" them... whether you are assessing their physical appearance, intelligence, their knowledge of world events, or how they like to eat their food... We are also doing the same to you - "Is he kind to the wait staff, does he ask me questions and keep the conversation flowing, does he smile at me and laugh at my jokes, does he have friends and a good relationship with his mother..."

 

So, to offer the flip side of the coin... I would suggest that we know what you are doing and we know when we don't "measure up" - which you say you feel every time you meet a woman on a date. The attitude that you are "better than everyone you date" will come across on your dates, whether you realize it or not. This kind of attitude is easy to hide when you are texting and getting to know each other. But, it's easy to spot when you meet in person. It wouldn't take very long for a woman to say - this guy is arrogant, entitled, self-centred, rigid, and not someone that I want to get to know... In other words - we can spot this kind of attitude and unrealistic expectations a mile away...

 

So, it goes both ways... You think the conversation is great by text and a let down when you meet in person... It's probably exactly the same for the women you are meeting.

 

And FYI, it probably has very little to do with physical attraction. I've dated some very good looking guys and walked away after one date because I felt that they were arrogant, entitled, and self-centred. "Who" they are can make a person much more unattractive than their actual physical appearance.

 

Of course it goes both ways I fully recognize that, for a time I couldn't understand and I tried to be impartial when I met people but the reality is I am not afforded much opportunity beyond say 30 min to impress, why should I afford the person sitting across from me any longer than that?

 

 

I am actually not arrogant or self centred, I cant be when I am the one asking all the questions taking an interest in everything about them. Despite what some say here the vast majority of dates I have been on have followed that pattern.

 

 

Unrealistic expectations, how do you determine what unrealistic is?

[ZA Dater]

I think you will be very lonely standing your ground...

 

And I'm not saying don't date someone who you don't find attractive, or enjoy their company...

 

But, if EVERYONE you date doesn't meet your standards, then... something is wrong with your expectations.

 

I say this as someone who held out for a long time to meet someone. So, I get it... it is worth waiting sometimes. But, you risk never enjoying a relationship.

 

But, let me tell you that when I met my boyfriend, that night I met him and his best friend. Both were single and both were nice guys. His friend, I have since come to learn... is holding out for his "perfect" match. He wants a model-type woman, smart, has money, adventurous... He is 50 and he has never had anything more than some short term relationships. He has nothing and nobody in his life - he has recently left his job to travel because he has no girlfriend, his father just passed away, and he is depressed and hoping to find "something...." he doesn't know what.

 

My boyfriend and I, on the other hand... well, we are not models. We are just two average people, working average jobs, making average money, living two very average lives... but, we have had so much fun together this year. We have dated, traveled, spent time cooking dinner together, going for bike rides, etc...

 

Sometimes, when you decide to give up unrealistic expectations and compromise on certain things, you find happiness...

 

But, by all means... tell me why I'm wrong.

 

I suppose the bold is a fear which keeps me awake at night from time to time. If that is the trade off for standing my ground I am preparing myself to pay the price, arguably I am paying it already because lets face it the market for a 33yo guy with no experience isn't a large one at all.

 

 

Its not everyone but the vast majority yes don't appeal to me at all and NO its not all physical looks, its about how interesting a person is, how they are able to converse or not, how interactive the date is and yes its about common interests.

 

 

My expectations are based on who I have managed to go out with before and people I have met in passing. I believe when we meet people we learn what we do and don't like and what we do like. Chances are the 50yo met someone once who had all of the things we wanted, had a great time and then after you have benchmarked like that its very hard to find anyone else interesting.

 

 

I don't think you are wrong at all but its the extent to which you are prepared to compromise, there are many, many days I feel incredibly lonely, so I temper that with trying to keep myself busy doing things or like mentioned here I will go and try find a date, here is a classic example of what I mean, start chatting to someone on Tinder yesterday, ALL the conversation is about her she asked me three questions, I then suggest meeting up "We'll see", honestly I don't have the appetite for that, either meet me or not, don't string me along or at the very least ask me some questions!

 

 

This past weekend I went away with my club and probably for the first time in a long time it didn't particularly bother me that I was the only un partnered up person.

[ZA Dater]

So now every person's pictures have been so dissimilar to their real life appearance that it makes all conversations fall flat? I've had women willfully deceive me about what they look like and managed to have interesting conversations with them.

 

 

 

So because they (supposedly) don't or have never asked about your life story, you can't take the higher ground and ask about their's? And if you do, it's always boring? And since you (supposedly) never get asked anything about yourself, why don't you offer some information instead? If she starts talking about something, why don't you give an opinion on it, or talking about an experience you had with it, or relate it to your own life somehow?

 

 

 

Yet if your conversational skills were as amazing as you claim them to be, how have you been on countless dates with women with whom you can't hold a conversation with? Surely if you're so good at this, you can extract some entertaining threads from them, can't you? Or, let me guess -- it's the fault of every women for not being interesting, intelligent, or engaging enough for you and no one equipped with even an emotional jaws of life could extract anything of interest from them?

 

 

 

 

Think about the people you find attractive and appealing. Do you think you're their equivalent? Do you think you're what they want? If so, what's stopped you from being with them, and if not, what are you doing about it?

 

 

 

 

I'm actually a believer that you should only go out with people who you have at least a moderate amount of interest in ahead of time. But she should also feel the same about you, and if you have to "beg" or "sell yourself," you've already lost with her. Focus on the ones who are more keen.

 

Its not all black and white, you and I know how deceptive OLD is so lets not be coy on that, old pictures, only face pictures, there are hundreds of ways to portray something misleading.

 

 

All I do is ask about them and try and throw something about myself into the conversation. Entertaining, not so much, disappointing, lots of that that and I keep harping on this for good reason, people want something relatable and if they cannot the entire conversation falls flat. I think this and so called Fun are the most important aspects oh and apparently she needs to laugh.

 

 

Lets not kid ourselves a guy who goes out with his friends has a few drinks does that social thing is a lot more attractive than the guy who sits and diligently works and writes articles, watches movies. A guy like that is much easier to present as a partner than the other alternative, you told me way back when to observe and learn and I have, I have learnt that.

 

 

I don't believe in people being equivalent, intellectually I can stand toe to toe with most, CEO's of big companies don't intimidate me in the least nor do incredibly successful people. People are people. Lets run with it, you tell me what you think is equivalent?

 

 

Am I what people want, refer above and my success rate suggests I am not. Funny thing is when the chips are down and someone with integrity and honesty is needed then I am exactly who people want. Is that enough to hang my moral hat on, sometimes yes and sometimes no.

 

 

Nobody is keen at the moment. I tried to pursue an ex work colleague but she isn't single, seems to have found one of those intensely irritating "Mr Perfects". Nobody else is single either, tried to meet a 34yo teacher off Tinder, she wasn't keen. Chatted to a 46yo who actually had a lot in common with me, she wasn't keen either and is beyond my age range.

 

 

Sad thing for me is I have actually given up on the early 20's people, wanted that experience but its simply not possible.

[GemmaUK]

On OLD - your biggest recent gripe is pics not being accurate - simple solution - video call - plan one in before a first meet.

You only seem to mention texts between OLD/Tinder and a date but you should at LEAST have one phone call so have one phone call and follow it up with a video call.

For you it sounds like a video call is required. If they say no to a video call then move right along.

 

You say the only 'new' way to meet is Tinder. It's as if you have forgotten keeping your eyes and ears open - you can meet someone ANYWHERE.

Stop being so blinkered. Just because you haven't had success using other methods doesn't mean you stop them.

 

I have no doubt you can interact perfectly well with CEOs or whichever type of role a person is in with running companies and a club but they still have a home life too. So, how often, following getting to know these men and women not on a work level but the human interaction part - you know the type of stuff - learning about their lives, their partners, their kids, what they like to do for fun etc. How often do you get invites to join them on a weekend?

I'm really curious about the above as you are pretty much saying you get on really well with these folk in high achieving roles so I want to know about your friendship levels with them.

 

You say you ate not attracted to most people, yeah, none of us are but you also mention models a lot. Which is fine if you are buff and great looking but also are quite happy not to have intellectual conversations. It's a stereotype but there are many models out there who are not intellectually equipped. It's not the same for all but at the same time you are trying to marry up two things which are not the norm - model looks and intellect.

 

Fun and laughing:

You called it 'so called fun' and 'apparently she has to laugh'.

This is precisely why you would so benefit from learning about conversational skills.

To explain this further as you really don't seem to understand, the conversational skills you need to learn are those of emotional intelligence.

This is something which is obvious to many of us but as you don't understand fun or why a woman might want to have fun and laugh.

 

Going on a first meet/date for me and the majority of women is about how the guy makes me FEEL.

 

The positives:

When I am on a date and I am getting smiles from him (providing he is not boring holes into my eyes) then it makes me FEEL more relaxed.

I in turn, will help him to FEEL more relaxed.

The start out point usually for a date is a smile upon greeting, A friendly reaction to first sight will encourage a smile from me and make me FEEL a little bit more relaxed.

Then likely discussing the trip there, or the morning/day you have had including some self depreciating stuff such as :

You couldn't decide what to wear, you feel nervous, you managed to drop a drink down yourself - things to make you human, things which are funny and humour can be raised from them - heck even if they are a total exaggeration or not 100% true. Because this will make me FEEL he is human too and I can share that I wanted to wear heels but realised we might end up walking somewhere and I didn't want to be hobbling around like a granny in pain who needed a zimmer frame.

Then discussing the thing that you have in common right now - which is the venue and what you can see. Observe the people - try to figure out who might also be in the same position as yourselves and might have only just met - and bring humour into that too, not by being mean but by making your own stories up - this again will make a person FEEL relaxed because the initial focus is not on you or her, it's all on the surroundings and surrounding people.

Laughing makes me FEEL relaxed which is why I want to laugh on a date.

I do all of the above and the majority of the time I have had dates reciprocate as they EMOTIONALLY understand what I am doing and they return the favour.

 

I do all of the above on all dates/meets ALWAYS. Even with the guy who turned up with an egg stained in-ironed shirt who was 150lbs heavier than his photo, even with the guy I met whom I walked past 3 or 4 times before I recognised him.

The reason I do this with any and every date/meet is that even in my late forties it's all good practice and keeps me in the loop and in the game for when I do meet someone whom there could be potential with.

If I drop these things then I am getting (or have become) bitter and no matter how much I like the next guy I meet I am already in the swing of being lazy with 'people', lose communication skills, small talk skills and emotional intelligence (in a situation which is very emotionally fueled - a date) and expecting too much from a guy when I am not prepared to put in my share of aiding a conversation along the way.

 

Here is a list of negatives:

If we meet and I FEEL intimidated because he is asking me a lots of questions,

If we meet and I FEEL intimidated because he is reeling off a list of accomplishments.

If we meet and I FEEL intimidated because he tells me he hangs out with models.

If we meet and I FEEL from him there is instant lack of attraction on his part.

If we meet and I see no or few smiles on his face but replaced instead with a straight, flat expression which slips into contempt it's going to make me FEEL really awkward and unwilling to speak - he is in command here (if I am seeing these 'not at all pleased' type of expressions coming from him) but I would much rather he be honest and end the date before it starts because displeasure is very easy to spot and will be all over his face.

 

The point is that practice helps, helps all of us but to wish to practice you need positivity, plus to actually REALLY be kind and empathetic to that fellow person you are on a date with. People do talk about themselves yes, and it can become boring yes but if they are talking then it sorta sounds like you switch down, get bored, probably stop listening or interrupt with an out of the blue question.

A better way around this is to have some patience, listen, keep listening but then find an out - suggest a venue change, relate in some way to what they are saying, tell a bit of your own story through an anecdote.

Often people blurb about themselves due to nerves - give 'em a bit of good grace and if you would slow down and not be so impatient to know if they are interested in you then you may well find dates might turn into a second date.

 

It really does sound like you shut down and do so pretty early on.

So yeah, a call and a video call first before meeting but then, once you are both happy with that and want to meet then do so - a video call will give you a lot more of a sense of attraction than texting will. If it isn't there attraction wise then don't go on a date.

You can practise anytime anywhere making people feel comfortable around you which would help enormously on dates.

On OLD watch out for new people joining, people join all the time but if you were to practise your interactions with people (the emotional interaction side of conversation skills) then you will be in a far better place by the time you do meet someone you like in terms of how to handle it.

[GemmaUK]

Sad thing for me is I have actually given up on the early 20's people, wanted that experience but its simply not possible.

 

And to add to my post just above - this is not sad - this is realistic.

Age appropriate for you would be around 27 to 40.

An older lady would also have a greater understanding more likely (nor necessarily but more likely) as to your lack of experience and your focus on work and study forsaking dating in your younger years.

Women in their early twenties have a different lifestyle from yourself - they have generally less life experience and will possibly go with the flow a bit more but at their age are not looking for the same things as you are at your age.

 

As I mentioned before I'm late forties, would I date virgin? Yes. Would I be curious as to why he is at my age appropriate age? Yes.

But if there was a story behind it as to why which he opened up and shared with me then I would feel he has some trust in me.

If we dated but he relied upon me too much for his happiness then that would be a turn off as I would expect him to be old enough to have his own life going on at his age.

If I got the vibe early on that his happiness relied upon getting a girlfriend and losing his V-card then this would also turn me off as it would be clear he is using me as a crutch.

I wonder whether the 46yo felt this was your intent to some degree after some time conversing with you, and I'm curious to know what you chatted to her about in terms of you, your life etc.?

With an older woman by that much older, men can often see them as a kind of counsellor to some extent - this takes away any flirting/sexual sparks there may have been in the beginning but for younger guys it can be so easy to fall into treating an older woman like that.

[elaine567]

I don't believe in people being equivalent, intellectually I can stand toe to toe with most, CEO's of big companies don't intimidate me in the least nor do incredibly successful people.

 

Yes you interact with such people for work, for business, but how many of them would give you a second date? I am not suggesting you need to date men, but would they, for the sale of argument?

My guess is probably no.

 

Because dating is a different skill set and whilst they may value your opinion or advice, would they want to spend a lot of time with you socially?

 

NO-ONE wants a guy who is no fun, so you can sarcastically say. "oh and apparently she needs to laugh.", but that is a fundamental human need and unless that was one of your dry humour jokes, then you need to change that attitude pronto.

Charm is mainly about laughing, about smiling, about that glint in the eye, the broad grins, the hand gestures, the obvious confidence and it is all about making people feel good about themselves.

It is also about knowing when to be serious and when to turn all that seriousness into a laugh. It is a balance.

Without fun, even the most "interesting" topic can seem very boring and no woman wants to spend her life with a boring man, that is the reality of the situation.

[ZA Dater]

On OLD - your biggest recent gripe is pics not being accurate - simple solution - video call - plan one in before a first meet.

You only seem to mention texts between OLD/Tinder and a date but you should at LEAST have one phone call so have one phone call and follow it up with a video call.

For you it sounds like a video call is required. If they say no to a video call then move right along.

 

You say the only 'new' way to meet is Tinder. It's as if you have forgotten keeping your eyes and ears open - you can meet someone ANYWHERE.

Stop being so blinkered. Just because you haven't had success using other methods doesn't mean you stop them.

 

I have no doubt you can interact perfectly well with CEOs or whichever type of role a person is in with running companies and a club but they still have a home life too. So, how often, following getting to know these men and women not on a work level but the human interaction part - you know the type of stuff - learning about their lives, their partners, their kids, what they like to do for fun etc. How often do you get invites to join them on a weekend?

I'm really curious about the above as you are pretty much saying you get on really well with these folk in high achieving roles so I want to know about your friendship levels with them.

 

You say you ate not attracted to most people, yeah, none of us are but you also mention models a lot. Which is fine if you are buff and great looking but also are quite happy not to have intellectual conversations. It's a stereotype but there are many models out there who are not intellectually equipped. It's not the same for all but at the same time you are trying to marry up two things which are not the norm - model looks and intellect.

 

Fun and laughing:

You called it 'so called fun' and 'apparently she has to laugh'.

This is precisely why you would so benefit from learning about conversational skills.

To explain this further as you really don't seem to understand, the conversational skills you need to learn are those of emotional intelligence.

This is something which is obvious to many of us but as you don't understand fun or why a woman might want to have fun and laugh.

 

Going on a first meet/date for me and the majority of women is about how the guy makes me FEEL.

 

The positives:

When I am on a date and I am getting smiles from him (providing he is not boring holes into my eyes) then it makes me FEEL more relaxed.

I in turn, will help him to FEEL more relaxed.

The start out point usually for a date is a smile upon greeting, A friendly reaction to first sight will encourage a smile from me and make me FEEL a little bit more relaxed.

Then likely discussing the trip there, or the morning/day you have had including some self depreciating stuff such as :

You couldn't decide what to wear, you feel nervous, you managed to drop a drink down yourself - things to make you human, things which are funny and humour can be raised from them - heck even if they are a total exaggeration or not 100% true. Because this will make me FEEL he is human too and I can share that I wanted to wear heels but realised we might end up walking somewhere and I didn't want to be hobbling around like a granny in pain who needed a zimmer frame.

Then discussing the thing that you have in common right now - which is the venue and what you can see. Observe the people - try to figure out who might also be in the same position as yourselves and might have only just met - and bring humour into that too, not by being mean but by making your own stories up - this again will make a person FEEL relaxed because the initial focus is not on you or her, it's all on the surroundings and surrounding people.

Laughing makes me FEEL relaxed which is why I want to laugh on a date.

I do all of the above and the majority of the time I have had dates reciprocate as they EMOTIONALLY understand what I am doing and they return the favour.

 

I do all of the above on all dates/meets ALWAYS. Even with the guy who turned up with an egg stained in-ironed shirt who was 150lbs heavier than his photo, even with the guy I met whom I walked past 3 or 4 times before I recognised him.

The reason I do this with any and every date/meet is that even in my late forties it's all good practice and keeps me in the loop and in the game for when I do meet someone whom there could be potential with.

If I drop these things then I am getting (or have become) bitter and no matter how much I like the next guy I meet I am already in the swing of being lazy with 'people', lose communication skills, small talk skills and emotional intelligence (in a situation which is very emotionally fueled - a date) and expecting too much from a guy when I am not prepared to put in my share of aiding a conversation along the way.

 

Here is a list of negatives:

If we meet and I FEEL intimidated because he is asking me a lots of questions,

If we meet and I FEEL intimidated because he is reeling off a list of accomplishments.

If we meet and I FEEL intimidated because he tells me he hangs out with models.

If we meet and I FEEL from him there is instant lack of attraction on his part.

If we meet and I see no or few smiles on his face but replaced instead with a straight, flat expression which slips into contempt it's going to make me FEEL really awkward and unwilling to speak - he is in command here (if I am seeing these 'not at all pleased' type of expressions coming from him) but I would much rather he be honest and end the date before it starts because displeasure is very easy to spot and will be all over his face.

 

The point is that practice helps, helps all of us but to wish to practice you need positivity, plus to actually REALLY be kind and empathetic to that fellow person you are on a date with. People do talk about themselves yes, and it can become boring yes but if they are talking then it sorta sounds like you switch down, get bored, probably stop listening or interrupt with an out of the blue question.

A better way around this is to have some patience, listen, keep listening but then find an out - suggest a venue change, relate in some way to what they are saying, tell a bit of your own story through an anecdote.

Often people blurb about themselves due to nerves - give 'em a bit of good grace and if you would slow down and not be so impatient to know if they are interested in you then you may well find dates might turn into a second date.

 

It really does sound like you shut down and do so pretty early on.

So yeah, a call and a video call first before meeting but then, once you are both happy with that and want to meet then do so - a video call will give you a lot more of a sense of attraction than texting will. If it isn't there attraction wise then don't go on a date.

You can practise anytime anywhere making people feel comfortable around you which would help enormously on dates.

On OLD watch out for new people joining, people join all the time but if you were to practise your interactions with people (the emotional interaction side of conversation skills) then you will be in a far better place by the time you do meet someone you like in terms of how to handle it.

 

First I want to answer the question.

 

 

There is a certain degree of synergy between work and club, in fact they tend to branch off each other to certain extents. You ask how well I integrate, pretty well, a group of 20 of us got back yesterday from a weekend away. I am quite happy to stand toe to toe, talk about families, their kids, experiences and life in general. There is a common interest which brings us all together which is nice, all are successful people but there no airs and graces.

 

 

We meet up go for drives, breakfasts, dinners and suchlike. From this the occasional piece of business is sometimes done. Its not a dating environment but it is a good networking environment.

 

 

I don't stop other methods I just never really meet anyone single through those methods, I do however get to observe people who date easily the charm used and the general methodology and of course I get to hear all the "do this do that" advice which however well meaning is definitely not a blanket solution.

 

 

I mention the models because for the most part all are nice grounded people who exude confidence and that confidence is very attractive. I have always found confidence attractive but here is comes in a package where I can easily sit and converse with them in a friend zone way knowing they aren't in me in any other way but I still get the conversational benefit. FYI the ones I have met are all well travelled and just interesting, many have had rough dating lives too, so when I get told they do understand me then I feel some form of comfort. In all instances these people have known me foe 3 years plus.

 

 

I perfectly understand laughing and I go out to try accomplish this and I have got better at it, providing the person across gets my humour.

 

 

You may not believe me but my dates, the rare good ones do follow the rough patter mentioned above, of course I try make them feel comfortable and smile and keep things light, that's the real objective, keep things light, thing problem I have good dates the conversation flows, bad ones it dries up quickly.

 

 

I'll be honest enough to say I have trotted out 4 of those negatives on a few occasions.

 

 

Bold point 1: I have done this many times because there is only so much I can take of a teacher telling me about her students, a au pair telling me about a three year old and I can only add so much about those things, so I tend to try steer the conversation to something else.

 

 

Bold point 2: I don't genuinely think any of them wanted to see me again*, apart from perhaps one which I did see again when she turned up to a date with an intoxicated friend. In my opinion you have 30 min to impress someone, if you don't its a dead in the water, I wish it wasn't so but in the throw away date society you can simply if you are nice window show over and over again. Hence my unwillingness to indulge in rampant selling to try make someone like me. I always put the other person first, she if she likes me great if not well then so be it, I have learnt its pretty much impossible to change a persons mind.

 

 

*the other exception might be the genetics lady who drank 4 glasses of wine, she even made the date but then blocked me before it could happen.

 

 

I probably make it sound like I totally switch off and sometimes I have done but not lately. Some people you click with and others you don't, I click with K and a few others but they aren't into me, respect because at least I am not left wondering if they are or aren't.

 

 

But that being said I can identify a lot in the above post.

 

 

It just seems to be virtually impossible to appeal to anyone I like irrespective of what I do and opportunity cost of feeling worthless because whatever positive energy I put in becomes negative versus putting the energy into something where I can create something positive. Writing a book, launching a blog, running entities, reviewing cars, helping others, running a club, putting positive energy into those things brings positive results. Dating for is putting that energy and never getting anything positive back, that whole thought is negative but really I sit here and ask myself if its really worth it.

 

 

The only thing which makes it worth it is chasing the ideal, there are people who do make me feel special, very few but its that ideal which keeps me going.

[ZA Dater]

And to add to my post just above - this is not sad - this is realistic.

Age appropriate for you would be around 27 to 40.

An older lady would also have a greater understanding more likely (nor necessarily but more likely) as to your lack of experience and your focus on work and study forsaking dating in your younger years.

Women in their early twenties have a different lifestyle from yourself - they have generally less life experience and will possibly go with the flow a bit more but at their age are not looking for the same things as you are at your age.

 

As I mentioned before I'm late forties, would I date virgin? Yes. Would I be curious as to why he is at my age appropriate age? Yes.

But if there was a story behind it as to why which he opened up and shared with me then I would feel he has some trust in me.

If we dated but he relied upon me too much for his happiness then that would be a turn off as I would expect him to be old enough to have his own life going on at his age.

If I got the vibe early on that his happiness relied upon getting a girlfriend and losing his V-card then this would also turn me off as it would be clear he is using me as a crutch.

I wonder whether the 46yo felt this was your intent to some degree after some time conversing with you, and I'm curious to know what you chatted to her about in terms of you, your life etc.?

With an older woman by that much older, men can often see them as a kind of counsellor to some extent - this takes away any flirting/sexual sparks there may have been in the beginning but for younger guys it can be so easy to fall into treating an older woman like that.

 

With due respect I don't actually want a 46yo GF, truthfully I don't. I want a 23--29yo one because one 30 comes along the want for kids comes along and that doesn't really align for me. Nor do I want single moms, divorced moms, my view on this are well documented and many found them offensive so I wont restate those here.

 

 

I have learnt one thing I never rely on people to be happy, I go out go, drive to the middle of nowhere and sit and enjoy silence, that's quite a happy place, or I can go for a nice drive, eat on my own somewhere. BUT it will tell you when I took A out 3 times I genuinely felt special, she was probably everything my mind could imagine in person, a very difficult life has had and the choices she made were not conventional but chatting with her, mundane things like shopping felt special with her. After that I knew what I imagine can exist.

[ZA Dater]

Yes you interact with such people for work, for business, but how many of them would give you a second date? I am not suggesting you need to date men, but would they, for the sale of argument?

My guess is probably no.

 

Because dating is a different skill set and whilst they may value your opinion or advice, would they want to spend a lot of time with you socially?

 

NO-ONE wants a guy who is no fun, so you can sarcastically say. "oh and apparently she needs to laugh.", but that is a fundamental human need and unless that was one of your dry humour jokes, then you need to change that attitude pronto.

Charm is mainly about laughing, about smiling, about that glint in the eye, the broad grins, the hand gestures, the obvious confidence and it is all about making people feel good about themselves.

It is also about knowing when to be serious and when to turn all that seriousness into a laugh. It is a balance.

Without fun, even the most "interesting" topic can seem very boring and no woman wants to spend her life with a boring man, that is the reality of the situation.

 

 

That I suppose is the honest truth in most of the above, the bold part in particular. It is what it is really, cant say these sort of posts make me feel particularly great but I know they aren't meant with malice.

 

 

Everyone wants to be that cool fun guy not all of us have that personality trait. Being lonely isn't nice but realising you don't match up to what you like is even harder to live with. Its very hard.

 

 

So when I get to spend time with people I don't match up with but like just for a time I can feel pretty good about that aspect of life.

 

 

Maybe I just thought other things could overcome the lack of fun I guess I am just wrong on that one.

[normal person]

the reality is I am not afforded much opportunity beyond say 30 min to impress, why should I afford the person sitting across from me any longer than that?

 

This attitude really makes me cringe. You desperately want women. That's why you shouldn't implement a limitation on the time they have to appeal to you. It's like you desperately need a loan from the bank, and you walk into the meeting with the manager and say "you've got 5 minutes to loan me your money, or else I walk." What do they care if you walk? Do you think they need you? If you don't get the money, you starve. If you starve, they carry on with business as usual. You need them, they don't need you. Concerning women, if you're as low on the totem pole as you are, you're in no position to put a girl on the clock just because you think you didn't get a fair shake. I'm sorry you're just learning this at age 33, but the world isn't fair. The market is always right, complaining about fairness or that your feelings got hurt isn't going to change anything.

 

All I do is ask about them and try and throw something about myself into the conversation. Entertaining, not so much, disappointing, lots of that that and I keep harping on this for good reason, people want something relatable and if they cannot the entire conversation falls flat. I think this and so called Fun are the most important aspects oh and apparently she needs to laugh.

 

"Relatable" is nice but I'm sure most people are just as happy to have "interesting" or "engaging."

 

I think this and so called Fun are the most important aspects oh and apparently she needs to laugh.

 

Wait, they want to laugh and have fun now too? They're so demanding these days, right?

 

I don't believe in people being equivalent, intellectually I can stand toe to toe with most, CEO's of big companies don't intimidate me in the least nor do incredibly successful people. People are people. Lets run with it, you tell me what you think is equivalent?

 

Cool, so intellectually you can stand toe to toe with CEOs, but for some reason you can't figure out how to make Jill from HR think you're mildly interesting? Do you not think there's an intellectual component to figuring out the methodology to connect with people on a personal level? Since you're so smart, why haven't you figured it out yet?

 

Sad thing for me is I have actually given up on the early 20's people, wanted that experience but its simply not possible.

 

You're 33, it's very, very possible. You're in your prime as a man right now. Lots of women in their 20s are looking for older, more distinguished, secure guys. Though knowing what I know about you and from the younger women I've dated, I don't think you'd enjoy it was much as you think. If you think women your own age aren't intellectual or politically aware enough for you, a 23 year old likely isn't going to scratch your itch.

[elaine567]

That I suppose is the honest truth in most of the above, the bold part in particular. It is what it is really, cant say these sort of posts make me feel particularly great but I know they aren't meant with malice..

Definitely not, but you need to give yourself a good shake and STOP being boring...

 

Even the car club with its older clientele, no singletons and no doubt an obsession with super cars is "boring", as few can really relate to that.

Any niche specialist subject is going to be boring to non enthusiasts so you are doing yourself no favours there.

I don't think any 23 yo will be super pleased to attend multiple events with folks old enough to be her parents either...

 

I have said this before but you act like someone, 40, 50, 60, yet are looking for a 23-29 yo and not only that, one who doesn't want kids, is that right?

YOU would be asking a fertile young woman to give up her chance of having children. That is a big ask.

[normal person]

Definitely not, but you need to give yourself a good shake and STOP being boring...

 

Even the car club with its older clientele, no singletons and no doubt an obsession with super cars is "boring", as few can really relate to that.

Any niche specialist subject is going to be boring to non enthusiasts so you are doing yourself no favours there.

I don't think any 23 yo will be super pleased to attend multiple events with folks old enough to be her parents either...

 

I will disagree with you here. Supercars are about as exciting and sexy as it gets. I think he has an advantage. If he could successfully talk about the exciting aspects of them, why he likes them, etc, that could be a really engaging conversation. I'm not at all materialistic, and I'm just a casual observer of cars but I'll turn my head even for a Maserati. You can then imagine that a Lamborghini is a conversation starter. If I sat down with a girl who was a writer or journalist in that sphere and was out on the track driving and writing about Bugattis all day, I'd be enthralled.

 

OP, do you own, or at the very least, get to drive the cars? If so, take that and run with it. Be tasteful about it, though.

 

I have said this before but you act like someone, 40, 50, 60, yet are looking for a 23-29 yo and not only that, one who doesn't want kids, is that right?

YOU would be asking a fertile young woman to give up her chance of having children. That is a big ask.

 

Won't argue with you here.

[elaine567]

I will disagree with you here. Supercars are about as exciting and sexy as it gets. I think he has an advantage. If he could successfully talk about the exciting aspects of them, why he likes them, etc, that could be a really engaging conversation. I'm not at all materialistic, and I'm just a casual observer of cars but I'll turn my head even for a Maserati. You can then imagine that a Lamborghini is a conversation starter. If I sat down with a girl who was a writer or journalist in that sphere and was out on the track driving and writing about Bugattis all day, I'd be enthralled.

 

I agree cars can be somewhat sexy and exciting BUT ZA dater runs a Supercars club which is full of older married people 40+, so whilst the cars may be somewhat exciting for a drive every now and again, few 20 something yo women I guess will want to sit down regularly with a whole bunch of married 40+ yos and discuss cars and business at the events he organises, which appear to be a big part of his social life.

[normal person]

I agree cars can be somewhat sexy and exciting BUT ZA dater runs a Supercars club which is full of older married people 40+, so whilst the cars may be somewhat exciting for a drive every now and again, few 20 something yo women I guess will want to sit down regularly with a whole bunch of married 40+ yos and discuss cars and business at the events he organises, which appear to be a big part of his social life.

 

But let's not put the cart before the horse. Before he worries about that he first has to not bore a woman to tears on a date. Saying he drives Ferraris for fun is a pretty good way to break that barrier to entry and make someone see he isn't so vanilla. Once he gets that down, I assume there's much more to him than just hanging out with the supercar crowd. Also, I imagine most young women who are into dating older men aren't going to be turned off by the fact that his time is spent doing things a bit more mature, or even "moneyed." That's often the appeal of the older man, isn't it?

[elaine567]

But let's not put the cart before the horse. Before he worries about that he first has to not bore a woman to tears on a date. Saying he drives Ferraris for fun is a pretty good way to break that barrier to entry and make someone see he isn't so vanilla. Once he gets that down, I assume there's much more to him than just hanging out with the supercar crowd. Also, I imagine most young women who are into dating older men aren't going to be turned off by the fact that his time is spent doing things a bit more mature, or even "moneyed." That's often the appeal of the older man, isn't it?

 

I guess we are probably both projecting a bit.

Me, not having the slightest interest in Supercars, and you, being suitably impressed...

[ZA Dater]

I will disagree with you here. Supercars are about as exciting and sexy as it gets. I think he has an advantage. If he could successfully talk about the exciting aspects of them, why he likes them, etc, that could be a really engaging conversation. I'm not at all materialistic, and I'm just a casual observer of cars but I'll turn my head even for a Maserati. You can then imagine that a Lamborghini is a conversation starter. If I sat down with a girl who was a writer or journalist in that sphere and was out on the track driving and writing about Bugattis all day, I'd be enthralled.

 

OP, do you own, or at the very least, get to drive the cars? If so, take that and run with it. Be tasteful about it, though.

 

 

 

Won't argue with you here.

 

I get to drive quite a few supercars, write about them too and in the process of launching a new venture involving them. Believe me if I could find a "car girl" I'd be quite happy but they are exceedingly rare down here!

 

 

Of course I try project them in an exciting way because they are exciting. Cars are one of my passions in life and the thrill of driving something from Italy quickly is as good as it gets for me. Of course its a tough line between boasting and I am very careful not to do the latter because I have been and am very lucky to get the supercar experiences I do.

[GemmaUK]

I guess we are probably both projecting a bit.

Me, not having the slightest interest in Supercars, and you, being suitably impressed...

 

And I'm midway between the two of you erring towards NP's view.

I don't even drive but I love cars with a passion! Totally contradictory - nut hey ho!

I'm not sure I would want to participate regularly in the club but there are ways I would want to if I could no matter what age I was. I'll explain in my next post.

 

ZA - this is just an interim reply.

I saw your reply to me and it was the most positive reply I have seen from you and much more enlightening too.

I don't have a chance to reply properly right now but I will tomorrow.

And no, there is no malice here, certainly not from myself, Elaine nor NP. A little frustration sometimes maybe but no malice.

I'll brb tomorrow.

[ZA Dater]

But let's not put the cart before the horse. Before he worries about that he first has to not bore a woman to tears on a date. Saying he drives Ferraris for fun is a pretty good way to break that barrier to entry and make someone see he isn't so vanilla. Once he gets that down, I assume there's much more to him than just hanging out with the supercar crowd. Also, I imagine most young women who are into dating older men aren't going to be turned off by the fact that his time is spent doing things a bit more mature, or even "moneyed." That's often the appeal of the older man, isn't it?

 

I think for the first time ever you and I are now on the same page, I never used to play this angle but when I was a track event and had a something to drive, it was incredibly easy to strike up a conversation with one of the guests, two students another member has invited (see Elaine not everyone is old in fact there are some late 30's guys) and ended up having a great time with her on the day, I was confident, got her to laugh lots and we both had a great time and I asked her out. What she didn't tell me was she had a bf, that I heard by text later on.

 

 

I have never been about vanilla, I don't ever, ever do the vanilla thing, when I sit down with someone I find out about them and drop things about me in the conversation, if that works the conversation flows well and its very much give and take. For me that's the sweet spot where confidence and comfort for both people grows, for me that's a GOOD date.

 

 

The discouragement for me comes in when things go really well and then fall apart when we leave, i.e. I never get date two, I just end up doing self analysis and when this keeps happening I do wonder. Admittedly its quite rare that things do link up so well, I can bring my A game when I really want to and I try bring it more often. For it to work I need to make a strong start and find the confidence from minute 1, if I don't the conversation never gains momentum and it tends to flop spectacularly.

 

 

Like Gemma says I think the key is to try and draw people out and sometimes I am more successful than other times, its quite tough to find the motivation though.

[ZA Dater]

Definitely not, but you need to give yourself a good shake and STOP being boring...

 

Even the car club with its older clientele, no singletons and no doubt an obsession with super cars is "boring", as few can really relate to that.

Any niche specialist subject is going to be boring to non enthusiasts so you are doing yourself no favours there.

I don't think any 23 yo will be super pleased to attend multiple events with folks old enough to be her parents either...

 

I have said this before but you act like someone, 40, 50, 60, yet are looking for a 23-29 yo and not only that, one who doesn't want kids, is that right?

YOU would be asking a fertile young woman to give up her chance of having children. That is a big ask.

 

When I said no single people, the majority are partnered up but there are some singles from time to time. There are some single people at events be they guests, members of the public etc. Again I need to try find more confidence....

[GemmaUK]

Real quick question.

You car club, does it reside at a race track of any sort?

Or, is there somewhere nearby where you can hire/use the track?

 

My mind is buzzing with some possible ideas so let me know so I can then broaden my reply tomorrow.