Why we cheat.

[Redhead14]

Yes, there's an element of "primalness" to all this. However, there's a reason that humans have attempted to rise to a higher standard/level/more civilized way of operating and existing in the world . . . and that's because it wasn't really working the other way for various reasons. One of which is, at some point, human men and women began to acknowledge their other natural needs/feelings and that they were being affected when each of them was being with other humans. Jealousy existed with cavemen and women.

 

I for, one, would not want to live a neanderthalian lifestyle. What we have now isn't perfect, but me like my man to be faithful and mindful of his commitment and realize that one reason we are together now is so that we do not grow old alone.

 

Commitment is a mindset that needs to be raised to the forefront of our daily walk through life. Both parties need to wake up every day and think about their wives/husbands, children, homes, etc. and make that a priority for the day and say to themselves -- today I am going to do my very best to show them how much I love them and respect them.

 

A cheater may not end up growing old alone. But they will be alone with the secrets/guilt/regrets/what ifs that they carry around in their hearts and at some point all of that will come to the surface for them.

[cocorico]

No matter how hard I tried I felt it was like pouring water down a bottomless pit.

In those days I didn't see it for what it was, or I'd have left the marriage before he had an affair, or maybe not even got into it.

 

As we all know hindsight is always 20/20 vision..

 

Although I quoted your post, I was using "your" generally. It's a phrase often used, as though because the R suited one person's needs just fine, they assume that it must have been the same for the other person. Which often isn't so.

 

And no, I wasn't implying mind reading. I was referring to people letting their SO know they were unhappy, and having it brushed off, time and time again, because their SO didn't share the unhappiness so didn't consider the issue valid. To the point where they gave up trying, and left / cheated / sank into depression / whatever. I've seen that so often.

[cocorico]

Sounds like some BS to me....this theory almost wipes out ones personal responsibility. Bad relationships don't cause someone to have poor boundaries and lack the ability to make sound decisions.

 

I'm a social scientist. I'm *very* wary of ascribing causality directly when it comes to human actions because there are just too many factors at play, and it becomes impossible to say A caused B, without being able to prove that, if C were not present and D absent, B would have happened due to A.

 

But I do think it's possible to establish correlation, and to reason (on the basis of observation) likelihood and predisposition.

 

So while I'd agree that "bad Rs don't cause poor boundaries or poor decision making", they do tend to be co-morbid. People who make bad decisions tend to choose partners unwisely, and land up in bad Rs. Or, people who don't stand up for themselves have poor boundaries, which lead to them being taken advantage of in Rs, and may lead to them starting new Rs before terminating the old ones.

 

Bad Rs can certainly predispose people's boundaries to weaken, and their decision-making to become short-term, and any number of other maladaptations. It's not removing personal responsibility by any means. Explaining something is very different to justifying it.

[Unforseen]

Unforseen,

 

 

 

and that's true for a great many of us BSs.

 

Being honest about our cheater’s character, forces us to consider unpleasant, unpalatable and difficult scenarios for our future with (or without) them.

 

It's easier to take some blame and then we can fool ourselves that have at least some control over future outcomes.

 

To accept that we have no control over anyone else's behaviour can make us feel vulnerable and powerless.

This is especially true if we have decided to try to reconcile with the WS.

 

That is the idea I think I was skirting around last night, Aries. As a guy who can usually deal with any situation or find a solution for problems that arise, situations like this cause such strife and feelings of helplessness. Clearly any influence I thought I had or dreams that there was something "real" between her and I go out the window and it is very easy to get stuck thinking that I failed or that I was not enough. Ha! Just another sort of blame shifting really.

 

Being that vulnerable before someone that hurt me that badly has been exceptionally difficult. I think that I will wonder if I am enough or if I am good enough for many years even though my W has been doing her best to show me otherwise.

[DKT3]

I'm a social scientist. I'm *very* wary of ascribing causality directly when it comes to human actions because there are just too many factors at play, and it becomes impossible to say A caused B, without being able to prove that, if C were not present and D absent, B would have happened due to A.

 

But I do think it's possible to establish correlation, and to reason (on the basis of observation) likelihood and predisposition.

 

So while I'd agree that "bad Rs don't cause poor boundaries or poor decision making", they do tend to be co-morbid. People who make bad decisions tend to choose partners unwisely, and land up in bad Rs. Or, people who don't stand up for themselves have poor boundaries, which lead to them being taken advantage of in Rs, and may lead to them starting new Rs before terminating the old ones.

 

Bad Rs can certainly predispose people's boundaries to weaken, and their decision-making to become short-term, and any number of other maladaptations. It's not removing personal responsibility by any means. Explaining something is very different to justifying it.

 

My educational background is human behavior and development, so we could go back and forth all day.

 

Baseline is behavior is base in part on environment, however one doesn't stray far from core values no matter what (short of lie and death situation or mental break). So basically that means we are predisposed for affair based on our core values. A relationship or other circumstances actually have very minimal affect on that.

 

Cheating is never isolated from a behavioral standpoint, it's usually just the Apex of a life long process of poor boundaries, entitlement and the ability justify ones own poor behavior. Every single betrayed spouse here, if they understood the pattern and behavior, would be able to give you a very long list of things that the WS did prior that predicts infidelity is a high probability.

 

It's no different than any other behavioral aspect. IE voted most likely to succeed in highschool, people can predict based on past behavior and a core value system...

 

In short 9/10 serial killers had people around them that knew they were headed for bad things.

[Arieswoman]

DKT3,

 

Cheating is never isolated from a behavioral standpoint, it's usually just the Apex of a life long process of poor boundaries, entitlement and the ability justify ones own poor behavior. Every single betrayed spouse here, if they understood the pattern and behavior, would be able to give you a very long list of things that the WS did prior that predicts infidelity is a high probability.

 

I could not agree more.

 

However, most BS,s like myself were naive, trusting and empathetic which made them easy prey for these types of people.

 

That's why I support the Catholic Church's pre-marriage counselling classes which helps couples examine and think about all sorts of challenges that can arise in a marriage.

[Chilli]

Well ,in that divorce forum l was in , through a lot of the stories l could actually see what happened and went wrong with quite a few, where as they still didn't know.

But there were many many too that def' just lived and pretended everything was just fine but at the same time were out screwing round.

 

l guess in my own sitch , as l said so many times in that forum , l was one of the lucky ones in a way because l had closure ,

l understood exactly what happened in my marriage and why l did stuff and why she did stuff.

Unfortunately though that was all a bit too late but there was cause and effect on both sides , hers for me and mine for her.

[knabe]

the Apex of a life long process of poor boundaries, entitlement and the ability justify ones own poor behavior. Every single betrayed spouse here, if they understood the pattern and behavior, would be able to give you a very long list of things that the WS did prior that predicts infidelity is a high probability.*

 

So basically cheaters are secret monsters hiding their true selves. And those who are morally superior must be subjected to it.

[BC1980]

I think it comes down to the fact that people's feelings change over the course of a lifetime. For example, I've had two different careers and several different jobs in my 36 years. For years, I thought I wanted a certain career, and everything I did was in pursuit of this career. I was sure I would never change my mind. At some point, something changed, and I decided to go down a different route and pursued something else. The reasons are multifactorial, but imagine if we told people, you have to choose one career, and, after that, you can't change your mind. You have to do this for the rest of your life. People would think you were insane.

 

It's the same way with marriage and relationships. We have this idea that if someone gets married, their feelings are never supposed to change after that day. And to top it all off, you can't have sex with anyone else for the rest of your life either. But the truth is that people's feelings change all the time over the course of their lives. No one can predict how they will feel 5 years from now or 10 years from now, ect. Life also happens too. Sometimes, a tragedy causes you to change in ways and become a different person that is no longer compatible with your spouse.

 

The irony is that we want stability and permanence, but the reality is that those things don't exist. We hate change, but change is our constant companion.

[BC1980]

I also think there is a problem with the way we view marriage today vs. 150 years ago. Marriage was more like a business transaction in olden times. Marriage was for having children to carry on the family name and to protect children from being a "b*stard child." It was also to protect women from poverty because women could not work or own property in many instances. So a woman literally had to get married to remain financially secure.

 

Marriage and relationships are completely different today and more based on emotion. In a lot of ways, marriages back in olden times were more stable because they were based on practical things. Marriages today are based on emotions, which isn't stable. I think we expect things out of people that are simply not realistic. It's just not realistic to expect someone to never love another human being or want to have sex with another human being after getting married. I don't believe these things because I want to but because they seem to be the most logical explanations.

[misspalmy]

I find more woman take cheaters back than men do

[Chilli]

People change too, especially in marriage over long time.

kids , mortgage, money , jobs, bills, school , the whole box of rocks. stress, life becomes all about life, and two people forget to keep in touch with themselves as a couple and keep nurturing that, for get time for them , and get snowed under with all the family and life stuff, it takes over.

and then there's looks , they stop looking after themselves and change and age and put on weight , get sick of each other, get grumpy.

it's tough sh@t being married and raising a family. really tough , and really really hard on a couple.

so it's all well and easy to look from the outside in at someone or at charts and info and theories in a book , but the real life, is real life, that's another story all together, that's reality.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Chilli

[Arieswoman]

knabe #158

 

So basically cheaters are secret monsters hiding their true selves. And those who are morally superior must be subjected to it.

 

I'm not sure if this is meant tongue-in-cheek, but there is a grain of truth in it, especially if you are dealing with narcissistic personality types.

There are also other personality disorders where the subjects are unable to fully emotionally invest in relationships but are able to feign commitment.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think it comes down to the fact that people's feelings change over the course of a lifetime. For example, I've had two different careers and several different jobs in my 36 years. For years, I thought I wanted a certain career, and everything I did was in pursuit of this career. I was sure I would never change my mind. At some point, something changed, and I decided to go down a different route and pursued something else. The reasons are multifactorial, but imagine if we told people, you have to choose one career, and, after that, you can't change your mind. You have to do this for the rest of your life. People would think you were insane.

 

It's the same way with marriage and relationships. We have this idea that if someone gets married, their feelings are never supposed to change after that day. And to top it all off, you can't have sex with anyone else for the rest of your life either. But the truth is that people's feelings change all the time over the course of their lives. No one can predict how they will feel 5 years from now or 10 years from now, ect. Life also happens too. Sometimes, a tragedy causes you to change in ways and become a different person that is no longer compatible with your spouse.

 

The irony is that we want stability and permanence, but the reality is that those things don't exist. We hate change, but change is our constant companion.

 

so then...what has changed over the last 150 years...and what makes the change right or worng.

 

It is society or individuals who have decided?

 

My parents are still living...they married at 14 and 17...and have been married 63 years. Are they wrong to accept that they will be true to each other until they die?

 

Granted..they are not in the mindset of the "new" generation...but whats to say they are wrong and young people are right?

 

John and i have been married 45 years...and intend to live together and love each other until we die...are we wrong?

Edited June 26, 2017 by Mrs. John Adams

[carhill]

Much of the change, both as to why and regarding transitory relationships of the legal sort, started when, well, male legislators loosened up divorce rules and began the then revolutionary action of 'no-fault divorce'. Prior, sure, men and women were unfaithful but in order to get divorced one had to prove it, or some other fault, or find one of the very few jurisdictions with relaxed divorce laws. Most people of ordinary means couldn't do that, the expensive legal/travel dance, so they dealt with the infidelities, swallowed the whys and carried on until the grim reaper came.

 

Some of us from those times were indoctrinated into 'one and done' and 'marriage is forever', both socially and religiously, so that stuff was burned into our psyches from a young age, before we really knew anything or could think critically, so we just 'believed'.

 

Times have changed, more in the area of choice than in absolutes of behavior. Divorce is more accepted now, as is the reality that cheating goes on. That doesn't mean cheating is accepted as a behavior, rather its existence is openly acknowledged as a behavioral set and professionals study and examine the 'whys' of the behavior, as they do with nearly all behaviors in order to better understand the human psyche.

 

Society tends to pressure people to conform to common standards, whatever those might be, and people have free will to conform and be validated or ignore and be ignored or shunned. Goes on all the time. Remember the 'scarlet letter'? Been awhile, sure. Started as a work of fiction and grew to become a 'label' regarding infidelity. Who did that? Society did. Groups did. That's how humans work.

 

Pragmatically, is there a 'why' for fidelity anymore? Infidelity? IDK. People find their own reasons. Their own beliefs. Their own morals. The discussion continues

[Mrs. John Adams]

well change can be "good" but it is not necessarily..."right"

 

and we can as society..."say" things dont matter

 

While my "acceptance" may be politically correct..is it "morally" correct for me.

 

Cheating ...may be more accepted by society...but is it more accepted within each individual household?

 

not in mine...I assure you...not in mine

[SammySammy]

so then...what has changed over the last 150 years...and what makes the change right or worng.

 

It is society or individuals who have decided?

 

My parents are still living...they married at 14 and 17...and have been married 63 years. Are they wrong to accept that they will be true to each other until they die?

 

Granted..they are not in the mindset of the "new" generation...but whats to say they are wrong and young people are right?

 

John and i have been married 45 years...and intend to live together and love each other until we die...are we wrong?

 

Societal norms changed. What's right or wrong depends on your point of view. What's right or wrong for you.

[somanymistakes]

People in the past broke up too, people in the past cheated on their spouses too, people in the past sometimes had eight wives quite famously. There are always all kinds of people.

 

Societal changes mean that certain things become more or less common over time, but there's always going to be variation.

[wmacbride]

Societal norms changed. What's right or wrong depends on your point of view. What's right or wrong for you.

 

The problem with this outlook is that the person who is cheating is not just deciding for themselves that it's okay to have an affair. They are dragging their spouse, kids, extended family etc. along for the ride...and I have a feeling most of the would not think it's "right".

[SammySammy]

The problem with this outlook is that the person who is cheating is not just deciding for themselves that it's okay to have an affair. They are dragging their spouse, kids, extended family etc. along for the ride...and I have a feeling most of the would not think it's "right".

 

I was referring to our attitude toward divorce. The acceptance of divorce versus staying married.

[wmacbride]

I was referring to our attitude toward divorce. The acceptance of divorce versus staying married.

 

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My mistake.

[SammySammy]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My mistake.

 

No problem.

 

And ... if I were talking about cheating I would have to agree with you. I understand your point and you're right about that.

[avvril3000]

Women are willing to provide sex to get an emotional attachment. Men will offer an emotional attachment to get sex.

 

Men, generally, are trained from an early age how to mimic that emotional attachment in order to get laid. Some are skilled at it. I think many women involved with married men think that there must be an emotional attachment if the man is going to risk his marriage, kids, and potentially his career to be with her. Plus, this feeds the need to feel desirable; it provides a solid boost of external validation. It make her feel that she must really be something special if he's going to take all of these risks, just to be with me (sometimes just for a few fleeting moments).

 

Everyone is speaking like all men have no feelings or emotions at all, thats they are sex robots and thats their soul purpose in life. Whether they are good men or being unfaithful to their spouse, i'm sure there are plenty of men out there who also hold a lot of true emotions in starting something new with someone else.

[Arieswoman]

BH post #3

 

I think many women involved with married men think that there must be an emotional attachment if the man is going to risk his marriage, kids, and potentially his career to be with her. Plus, this feeds the need to feel desirable; it provides a solid boost of external validation. It make her feel that she must really be something special if he's going to take all of these risks, just to be with me (sometimes just for a few fleeting moments).

 

This was certainly true in my sitch.

My exH's AP was warned by colleagues at work not to get involved with him.

Her response was that "she knew him so well" ( !! ) and "he never strayed until he met me".

 

She also told her colleagues that it was so awful that she had to have such a wonderful relationship with "all this deceit". (She had a b/f at the time)

 

I'm sure many female APs have their thinking skewed because their heads are so full of romantic mis-mash.