Turning the tables [after an affair]

[knabe]

Or the two of you could love each other and continue to grow into a marriage where the two are one flesh. That is what I would recommend.

 

You don't have to hate or dismiss her to love yourself. No healthy man does.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Why would a woman have surgery to help her conceive if she did not truly want a baby? That does not even make sense.

 

And his wife is not low drive... she is lower drive than he is...

 

And she is not faking anything..

 

She is doing everything she can to save her marriage. Her feelings are genuine.

[Overtaxed]

Why would a woman have surgery to help her conceive if she did not truly want a baby? That does not even make sense.

 

And his wife is not low drive... she is lower drive than he is...

 

And she is not faking anything..

 

She is doing everything she can to save her marriage. Her feelings are genuine.

 

LOL, see what happens when you work for a day instead of hang out on LS, now my wife is a casting couch girl! That'll teach me to not log in.

 

Kidding, lots of good and few "interesting" comments.

 

I do think your right, I don't think she's "faking" it anymore than I'm faking more words of admiration, I think it's me, and, the whole genesis of this thread was about my hangups, not hers. I'm the one with them now, she seems to have lost or pushed her back. That's what "turning the tables" was all about.

 

I do wonder about the point about children though, I really do. Yes, she had surgery, but that had multiple purposes, she told me at the time it was to help her deal with the pain, and, there's no question, she has serious pain around her cycle. So that made perfect sense to me. Was having children part of it? At the time, she didn't say much about it, but I'm sure it was. But I'm still not entirely convinced that what she wanted, deep inside, I just don't know. She said she did. We talked about it a lot. But her actions never really totally got in line with it.

 

One specific example, when we discussed children, I'd often tell her we'd need to scale back our lifestyle and she'd need to continue working to afford it. Seemed to me, pretty reasonable. And what I was looking for was a "Yes, I get that, I understand". Instead I got all the reasons I was being unreasonable and that "isn't the way it would be" in her eyes, not what she wanted. Again, something I look at now and wonder "did she really want this".

 

I think of me, when I want something, which my loving W will attest isn't always a good thing, I have a single minded focus on it. I'll do "whatever it takes" to get it, and that's kind of how I felt we should both feel or she should feel and I should support to go down the road that having children would lead us (because it wouldn't be as easy as it is for most, and even with the best help, it still might not work). That seems like something you have to be "all in" on. And I just never felt like she was; she did have the surgery, and that's a very good point, but looking back, that surgery was never framed as "I'm doing this to get pregnant" it was "I need the pain to stop". I'm sure both of them were true, but I never put the first one as the primary reason.

[Overtaxed]

Or the two of you could love each other and continue to grow into a marriage where the two are one flesh. That is what I would recommend.

 

You don't have to hate or dismiss her to love yourself. No healthy man does.

 

I'll take this option please.

[elaine567]

I think your wife does want children only she gets pushed back every time by your oh so rational and logical financial considerations and your oh so rational and logical "It will never work anyway", so she gives up.

She has no backing or support and she would have to fight you and I guess she is too weak to do that. Especially now.

 

I also think she is perhaps scared to try to have kids, as at the moment it is still very possible in her mind, but if she tries and fails or she is told something that means it really is impossible I don't thinks she would cope very well with that. Her dream would be over for good, and YOU would have "won" too.

[HereNorThere]

And his wife is not low drive... she is lower drive than he is...

 

I am genuinely interested in how a person who claims to have a low sex drive, low enough that she denies her partner frequency as well as variety, can suddenly find the drive to take on another sexual partner? If there's a rational explanation, I'm all ears, but it doesn't make any sense to me. If her sex drive was that low, she wouldn't be out creeping for sex from other guys.

 

I see both men and women deny their partners, claim low sex drive, etc. but nothing seems to wake up their libido like a new person. That to me shows that it's not their primal drive for sex as much as it is just not wanting sex with their primary partner.

[elaine567]

If her sex drive was that low, she wouldn't be out creeping for sex from other guys.

 

She wasn't out there creeping for sex though was she?

She was out there creeping for emotional intimacy, sex was merely the "side effect".

Emotional intimacy that Overtaxed admits was sorely lacking on his part.

[knabe]

I am genuinely interested

 

First, I do not for a moment believe this. But, all I can say as a woman is that sex is complex for us. And I was the higher drive partner in my former marriage. Lots of factors motivate and affect drive and desire. To say, "well she was lower drive with her husband but she put out for the OM" is really not a mystery as much as it is an example of how woefully little some men understand women.

[HereNorThere]

She wasn't out there creeping for sex though was she?

She was out there creeping for emotional intimacy, sex was merely the "side effect".

Emotional intimacy that Overtaxed admits was sorely lacking on his part.

 

She didn't have to have sex. There's no requirement for sex with emotional intimacy and it surely doesn't require offering your new sex partner the type of sex you've been denying your former partner.

 

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. She could have had all the intimacy she wanted without the wild monkey sex. It wasn't a "side effect" it was the main effect.

[Unforseen]

I am genuinely interested in how a person who claims to have a low sex drive, low enough that she denies her partner frequency as well as variety, can suddenly find the drive to take on another sexual partner? If there's a rational explanation, I'm all ears, but it doesn't make any sense to me. If her sex drive was that low, she wouldn't be out creeping for sex from other guys.

 

I see both men and women deny their partners, claim low sex drive, etc. but nothing seems to wake up their libido like a new person. That to me shows that it's not their primal drive for sex as much as it is just not wanting sex with their primary partner.

 

From a limited perspective it doesn't make much sense. Yet it is frequently seen here. The simple answer is because it's not about the sex. Sex is the payment a WW makes to get other needs met from an OM. A WW can rationalize bending and breaking her comfort boundaries in many different ways to justify or minimize what she is doing to recieve attention. There you have it. A rational explanation for irrational behavior. It doesn't make sense because the basic human needs for love and acceptance are so strong that almost any means will

Be justified in the head of the betrayer to receive them.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am genuinely interested in how a person who claims to have a low sex drive, low enough that she denies her partner frequency as well as variety, can suddenly find the drive to take on another sexual partner? If there's a rational explanation, I'm all ears, but it doesn't make any sense to me. If her sex drive was that low, she wouldn't be out creeping for sex from other guys.

 

I see both men and women deny their partners, claim low sex drive, etc. but nothing seems to wake up their libido like a new person. That to me shows that it's not their primal drive for sex as much as it is just not wanting sex with their primary partner.

 

OT has never claimed his wife was low sex drive. Not once. He said her drive was lower than his...and his is high.

 

So how then do we translate lower than mine...to low...as in i never want it?

They had an acceptable sex life before the A. Acceptable to BOTH of them....

OT wished for more....but it was acceptable.

 

Let me also explain something since OT did just now discuss this a bit. Sex was painful for Mrs OT.....her female reproductive issues...caused her pain.

There is another thread on Loveshack right now abput a husband who suffers from chronic kidney stones....and does not have sex with his wife.

Sometimes there are physical reasons sex is not as satisfying or fun for our partner. It does not mean they are not willing to have sex at all....and in this relationship...Mrs OT and MR ot...had reached an acceptable agreement about their sex life. she did not deny him frequency nor did she deny him variety.

 

This is not about kinky sex of any kind. If OT wants to explain further he should. But I am fearful that you have conjured us a scenario that is not accurate....and i have BOTH sides of this story...and they coincide quite well....so I dont think someone is not telling me the truth here.

 

Besides which....this thread is not about Mrs OT but rather about MR ot's reaction to Mrs OT.

 

Mrs Ot was not out creeping for sex. Mrs OT confided in an old friend about her surgery and her inability to conceive. Yes...Mrs OT moved her boundaries...yes...she made a bad choice...yes she is accountable and owns it.

 

Lets not spin this into something it isnt.

On it's own merit...its bad enough withput embellishments of girls gone wild scenarios.

[HereNorThere]

Maaaaybe, but I don't buy it. She could have strung along a billion different chumps for intimacy, attention, validation and all that.

 

Honestly, I think you still have on blinders when it comes to females. Brother, I'm telling you, the majority of women I've come across over the age of 30 have much higher drives, partner counts, etc than men do. It seems like you are still operating from dating perspective of a 23 year old guy. Once you date a 100 women over the age of the 30, the truth becomes pretty apparent. They are just as much hunters/predators as men are in their 20s if not more.

 

All the rationalizing in the world won't save you from this fact. Dude, she didn't trade anal sex for "intimacy." Nah, she wanted anal sex. The part that bothers you is that she didn't want it from you. I get that and it would hurt my feelings as well. My ego would absolutely be crushed and most likely, I would be trying to excuse her behavior or look for a way to explain it that let's both of us off the hook. I totally get it. However, before this happened to you, if one of your friends told you that his wife was getting railed by some random dude, doing things with him she denied her husband, etc, I really doubt you'd be all "Bro, you aren't meeting her emotional needs."

 

The cognitive dissonance drives us to rationalize. I get it. I personally just think that all the rationalizing is dangerous. After all, that's what got her into this mess in the first place. In my opinion, if you are going to choose to R, you have to be blatantly honest with yourself about what happened. The reason you feel so bad now is because deep down you know you aren't being true to what you believe. You know that this had nothing to do with with emotional needs, affection, whatever. That feeling won't go away until your actions line up with your beliefs. Until then, this will eat at you no matter how hard you try to hamster it away.

[knabe]

I will say that a man who doesn't like women is not liekly to have much to offer with regard to persepctive about their thoughts on sex. itterness is just about the biggest libido killer there is.

 

OP, again I will suggest that you surround yourself with men who are the kind of man you want to be.

Edited June 29, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
response to deleted post ~T

[HereNorThere]

 

I will say that a man who doesn't like women is not liekly to have much to offer with regard to persepctive about their thoughts on sex. itterness is just about the biggest libido killer there is.

 

OP, again I will suggest that you surround yourself with men who are the kind of man you want to be.

 

Sex is complex for women when it is and and it's not when it's not. It's kind of generalizing in the first place because there's plenty of women who are perfectly capable of separating love, lust, etc. Women are "complex" when it benefits them which really isn't any different than men. Women are generally known to be more sensitive and usually have stronger reactions to negative emotions. In my experience, certain women need to constantly rationalize and justify to stave off feeling them. Don't get me wrong, I think men can be equally or even more callous, cruel and abusive. The difference is that I think women shouldn't get a free pass cause "her needs" and all that. We all have needs. One of my needs is a wife that doesn't bang other guys.

 

Men are just as complex and emotional, just in a different way. Why do you think men are usually bothered by the sex more than women are? (Don't get me wrong, plenty of women are bothered, even tormented by it, just not as many as the fellas.) There's nothing more primal, more humiliating, than be regarded as cuckold. The mere fact that he hasn't bashed OM's head in with a rock is a testament to his strength and mental fortitude.

Edited June 29, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[knabe]

Sex is complex for women when it is and and it's not when it's not. It's kind of generalizing in the first place because there's plenty of women who are perfectly capable of separating love, lust, etc. Women are "complex" when it benefits them which really isn't any different than men. Women are generally known to be more sensitive and usually have stronger reactions to negative emotions. In my experience, certain women need to constantly rationalize and justify to stave off feeling them. Don't get me wrong, I think men can be equally or even more callous, cruel and abusive. The difference is that I think women shouldn't get a free pass cause "her needs" and all that. We all have needs. One of my needs is a wife that doesn't bang other guys.

 

Men are just as complex and emotional, just in a different way. Why do you think men are usually bothered by the sex more than women are? (Don't get me wrong, plenty of women are bothered, even tormented by it, just not as many as the fellas.) There's nothing more primal, more humiliating, than be regarded as cuckold. The mere fact that he hasn't bashed OM's head in with a rock is a testament to his strength and mental fortitude.

 

[]

 

OP, I truly believe your wife is expressing love and a desire to meet your needs. If reconciliation is your goal, demonizing her or analyzing for nefarious motives won;t serve YOUR prupose. Oh, it serves a purpose...just not your purpose of reconciliation.

Edited June 30, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Topical content and member moderated

[Unforseen]

OT, sometimes it feels like there are some commonalities between or stories. I can say that even without the PA being involved in my story, the dynamic between my wife and I has changed in the bedroom. Just like I don't know what to do with her improved attitude toward sex she has always been LD but in an effort to make me happy she is trying to overcome that

 

I get the differences in that your WW was just lower drive than you, but otherwise it's similar in that I've always had the higher drive than my wife. What I get stuck on is how her interactions with her APs seemed to show actual desire on her part. In our many discussions what she really wanted was the attention and to feel accepted. She did not think I would provide that for her or even want to provide that for her so she found other sources.

 

Now she is doing everything she can to try to make that up to me and I'm busy thinking about how she acted with other men. Really. What the hell is wrong with me? And that right there is the struggle, taking what you know and pushing it behind you to focus on what she is doing for you now. It ain't easy. There is nothing at all easy about the reconciliation you and your wife are trying so hard to have. Yet that is the wonderful eternal gift of an affair. You will always be plagued by these doubts and questions and if you're not careful they will easily keep that divide between you and your wife.

 

Keep up the work sir. R isn't easy and is t for everyone or every marriage. The anxiety and issues are normal and identifying them and working through them is just part of the process. You seem like a smart guy. I'm sure you can tell the difference between someone taking you for a ride and someone genuinely trying to make you happy. I hope the later is the case. I hope some of these other responses are true and that your wife is simply doing her best to meet your needs. Keep talking and don't let your questions and issues linger in the darkness of your mind and corrode the new connections you are trying to build with your wife.

[understand50]

All,

 

We need to remember the OT is the only giver of the facts. Trying to add or extend a recounting does no one any good. Mrs OT, is just as OT has describe, and trying to assign to her things she is not, or making out that she is not trying to overcome and see true remorse is dishonest. We need to spend less time imagining what she is. What we think she is or had done, and more time working to help OT, overcome his fears.

 

OT has given the gift of a second chance. A brave and loving thing. OT is now trying to come to terms with what happened and the many changes in himself and Mrs OT. My advise to him, is to accept when Mrs OT is doing things and showing by her actions that she is try to make it safe for him. Beginning to see what remorse is. All this takes time, and time is there to fix things. Overthinking things, can be damaging. Sometimes sex, a relationship can get better, and if we are working to make it so, why are we surprised that is did?

 

I wish them both luck and hope for the best...

[mercy]

OT & Unforseen, the affairs have stolen enough from both of you (and me) refuse to allow it to steal your joy.

 

At times I'd say to myself nope not going to think about it because right now feels so good. Be mindful of the moment. You have all the time in the world to think about it later. If you choose to or you could fill your mind with joy and the memories you're making right now.

[Overtaxed]

OT, sometimes it feels like there are some commonalities between or stories. I can say that even without the PA being involved in my story, the dynamic between my wife and I has changed in the bedroom. Just like I don't know what to do with her improved attitude toward sex she has always been LD but in an effort to make me happy she is trying to overcome that

 

I get the differences in that your WW was just lower drive than you, but otherwise it's similar in that I've always had the higher drive than my wife. What I get stuck on is how her interactions with her APs seemed to show actual desire on her part. In our many discussions what she really wanted was the attention and to feel accepted. She did not think I would provide that for her or even want to provide that for her so she found other sources.

 

Now she is doing everything she can to try to make that up to me and I'm busy thinking about how she acted with other men. Really. What the hell is wrong with me? And that right there is the struggle, taking what you know and pushing it behind you to focus on what she is doing for you now. It ain't easy. There is nothing at all easy about the reconciliation you and your wife are trying so hard to have. Yet that is the wonderful eternal gift of an affair. You will always be plagued by these doubts and questions and if you're not careful they will easily keep that divide between you and your wife.

 

Keep up the work sir. R isn't easy and is t for everyone or every marriage. The anxiety and issues are normal and identifying them and working through them is just part of the process. You seem like a smart guy. I'm sure you can tell the difference between someone taking you for a ride and someone genuinely trying to make you happy. I hope the later is the case. I hope some of these other responses are true and that your wife is simply doing her best to meet your needs. Keep talking and don't let your questions and issues linger in the darkness of your mind and corrode the new connections you are trying to build with your wife.

 

I do see a lot of common ground in our stories, that's for sure. And I think my W would echo what you and other's said, she was after the compliments and how he made her feel in his pursuit, the sex was a "side effect".

 

The thing that I wanted to comment on was your last paragraph. I think that may be the crux of the issue in some respects, I used to think that about myself (smart guy, able to tell when I'm going for a ride). I don't feel that way any more, and I suspect that most BS can relate; I was so blind. I was totally unable to tell. My "smart guy, understand the world" internal voice seems to have died. I feel like I don't understand anything about it, about her during that time, or about myself (once again, how did I not see it). And I think now I've doubled up on the "careful, you're being taken for a ride" pill every morning! I'm having a lot of trouble, really the topic of the thread, taking things at face value. What's truly pissing me off, she's doing exactly what I'd tell another WW to do, actions/words are lining up, she's taking the steps that I asked her to take, and still, I sit worried "is this genuine".

 

The thing that's hard, I don't think any of us want to drag our WS's into this ®, we want them to want to R. And any step that doesn't feel committed, or freely undertaken, feels "off". We don't (at least I don't) trust my judgement anymore, I feel like I can't stop with the "what are you missing" and "what's really going on". And, as my W will tell you, as will a good friend on this board, I've always been an "over analyzer". This is just taking it to a whole new level of paralysis by analysis.

[SummerDreams]

This is genuine because it comes out of love. The desire for sex and everything else she does to please you are forced because if they were natural in her she would have done them years ago. When my BF asks me to watch a movie that I don't like with him, is the desire real? Do I WANT to watch the movie? No. But is my desire to please him real? Of course it is. Now whether me watching the movie only to please him and not cause I want to is enough for him is another issue. Some people don't have a problem with the "I want you to want it", others do. When an A is thrown in the mix things get more complicated. Are you willing to be OK with "she does it to please me cause she loves me"?

[Unforseen]

I do see a lot of common ground in our stories, that's for sure. And I think my W would echo what you and other's said, she was after the compliments and how he made her feel in his pursuit, the sex was a "side effect".

 

The thing that I wanted to comment on was your last paragraph. I think that may be the crux of the issue in some respects, I used to think that about myself (smart guy, able to tell when I'm going for a ride). I don't feel that way any more, and I suspect that most BS can relate; I was so blind. I was totally unable to tell. My "smart guy, understand the world" internal voice seems to have died. I feel like I don't understand anything about it, about her during that time, or about myself (once again, how did I not see it). And I think now I've doubled up on the "careful, you're being taken for a ride" pill every morning! I'm having a lot of trouble, really the topic of the thread, taking things at face value. What's truly pissing me off, she's doing exactly what I'd tell another WW to do, actions/words are lining up, she's taking the steps that I asked her to take, and still, I sit worried "is this genuine".

 

The thing that's hard, I don't think any of us want to drag our WS's into this ®, we want them to want to R. And any step that doesn't feel committed, or freely undertaken, feels "off". We don't (at least I don't) trust my judgement anymore, I feel like I can't stop with the "what are you missing" and "what's really going on". And, as my W will tell you, as will a good friend on this board, I've always been an "over analyzer". This is just taking it to a whole new level of paralysis by analysis.

 

OT, I see what you mean. I understand why you are doubting everything. You have reason to. Your wife whom you unquestionably trusted betrayed that trust. Something that you were so sure of turned out to be false. That's enough to wreck anyone's world. Right now there is nothing wrong with the way you are feeling. It makes sense that you are confused and unable to trust something that is broken. It would be like watching someone cut through the lines of a parachute and then jumping anyway. It will take time to rebuild that trust again. It will take even longer to stop questioning every move your wife makes and looking for the hidden meanings or watching to saw how she will betray you again. That is perhaps the curse of an active mind like yours: it is so difficult to turn it off and just let things happen. You are probably always hunting to find the clues and reasons behind everything. As a guess I'd say you probably enjoyed taking things apart to see how they worked and have easily been able to find solutions to problems.

 

I'm something like this though there's almost nothing that can be adequately answered. I know those feelings of losing control and of helplessness were some of the most difficult to face. That I couldn't solve the problem that my wife had imposed upon me or in anyway make it right. That my wife was capable of such things by her own choice really hit hard. What helped me in some small ways, to feel like I was regaining control, was much like Mercy suggested. I actively put a line in my mind separating the horrible choices that my wife made from the choices she has been making since the affair. Everyday I take a hard look at who she is now and who she is working to become and compare that to the woman who hurt me so badly. I make a point let my wife know the good things that I am seeing as well as the things that still bother me. As long as that good list keeps getting better and the bad list keeps getting shorter then I feel more at ease and can better identify how she is making me feel that she is safe. Just keep your attention on the positive changes.

 

Even though my wife's task is the heavy one, I am still making changes in how I treat her. She cannot fulfill her side of this work without me. Each setback or trigger that we survive and overcome together makes us a little stronger and closer. So you too can put that big brain of yours to work focusing on your wife and finding new and better ways to love her and let her know she is loved. True, it may be a little early for you to be comfortable going all in like that, but it doesn't hurt to plan for that happy contingency.

[knabe]

This is genuine because it comes out of love. The desire for sex and everything else she does to please you are forced because if they were natural in her she would have done them years ago. When my BF asks me to watch a movie that I don't like with him, is the desire real? Do I WANT to watch the movie? No. But is my desire to please him real? Of course it is. Now whether me watching the movie only to please him and not cause I want to is enough for him is another issue. Some people don't have a problem with the "I want you to want it", others do. When an A is thrown in the mix things get more complicated. Are you willing to be OK with "she does it to please me cause she loves me"?

 

[]

 

OP wants to reconcile. He wants to have a happy marriage. Deciding for his wife how she feels and who she is is contrary to that goal.

 

Period.

Edited June 30, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Topical content

[Wade Lamare]

Not meant to be a critical post so please don't take it as so. It is meant as more of an observation.

 

I don't think any tables have been turned. All that is happening is that you are facing the reality of your wife's affair. Your wife is no doubt guessing, probably correctly, that if she returned to the slightly grudging LD partner you had before after indulging in 'wild monkey sex' with her AP you'd be gone in a flash.

 

And you are just dealing with the usual shet sandwich that a BS has to deal with.

 

The only weapon you have at your disposal is time, although time can be a double edged sword. I have no idea of the percentages but a fair few BS battle through the first few years of reconciliation but seem to reach a tipping point where they say "why the frick am I doing this?" and get divorced.

 

I don't think your situation and thoughts are in any way unusual but I am concerned that the longer you continue to think like this the more likely you are to call a halt to your marriage. The alternative, which you've dismissed, is that at some point when you're feeling particularly aggrieved you have some kind of affair of your own whilst on one of your business trips.

You have many many months to go before you are out of the woods I'm afraid.

[Cephalopod]

Overtaxed have you had a full medical workup done? I'm side-tracking here a bit, but you might want to get a full physical and while you are at it, get your testosterone levels checked.

 

The trauma you went through can clobber your testosterone levels and that can also adversely affect libido.

[Overtaxed]

Overtaxed have you had a full medical workup done? I'm side-tracking here a bit, but you might want to get a full physical and while you are at it, get your testosterone levels checked.

 

The trauma you went through can clobber your testosterone levels and that can also adversely affect libido.

 

I have not had a full medical done, however, I can say, test level is not a problem. You're absolutely right to ask, and I would do the same seeing this thread for another male poster. However, I'm on TRT. So, no, my test level isn't causing me feeling this way.

 

For other posters though, what Cephalopod said is very important, when your depressed or in shock from something like this, your test levels can plummet, and, if they do, your symptoms could look a lot like what I'm describing as my problem. Get it tested, and if it's low, find a doc who knows what they are doing. Anyone who gives you test without estrogen blockers in a hack; start with that as the baseline for "know what they are doing".