Is my wife hiding something?

[suspiciousH]

Thank you for this SH! I would also add that I have been very impressed by your posts. You come across as an intelligent man with impeccable morals, who puts his wife and his family as the absolutely number 1 priority in his life. Good for you!

 

I'm am one of the stupid ones who, despite having a great wife and family, let curiosity, selfishness and entitlement get the better of me and I now find myself an established member of LS, with the unenviable acronym of fWS.

 

Your wife is extremely lucky to have a husband like you who values his wife and family above anything else, loves them so fully and would never allow himself to fall into the stupid path that I took. I had a happy marriage, and we are working very hard to rebuild a brand new happy marriage (I'm one of the lucky ones who has been given a chance at reconciliation) - but boy, what a hammer blow my affair has proved to be to all of us. How much pain I would have saved so many people if I could have maintained my own morals and standards to the rock-solid level that you clearly have. I admire you.

 

And yes, there is definite hope that you will find nothing out - because hopefully there is nothing to find. I'm crossing my fingers with sincere hope for you!

 

Please keep posting.

 

I am pulling for you!

 

I was very fortunate to learn the skill of visualization (a Buddhist thing) in my 20s. Among other benefits it helped me connect deeply with the potential consequences of my actions. For example, like any red-blooded man I have been attracted to a handful of women over the years, especially when an attractive women has expressed strong interest in me. More times than I would care to admit I found myself fantasizing about the woman. But I made sure to play out the "whole fantasy" in my mind, meaning that I would continue the fantasy to include not only the sex and the exciting stuff abut also my wife's discovery, her heartbreak, divorce, and separation from my kids. Once mastered visualization is a very powerful practice.

Visualization has also helped me attain many of my educational and professional goals by creating a strong conviction/desire that enabled me to take the necessary steps to get much of what I wanted out of life.

[jenkins95]

I am pulling for you!

 

I was very fortunate to learn the skill of visualization (a Buddhist thing) in my 20s. Among other benefits it helped me connect deeply with the potential consequences of my actions. For example, like any red-blooded man I have been attracted to a handful of women over the years, especially when an attractive women has expressed strong interest in me. More times than I would care to admit I found myself fantasizing about the woman. But I made sure to play out the "whole fantasy" in my mind, meaning that I would continue the fantasy to include not only the sex and the exciting stuff abut also my wife's discovery, her heartbreak, divorce, and separation from my kids. Once mastered visualization is a very powerful practice.

Visualization has also helped me attain many of my educational and professional goals by creating a strong conviction/desire that enabled me to take the necessary steps to get much of what I wanted out of life.

 

Thank you for your kind wishes SH.

 

Thank you also for sharing this knowledge about visualisation. This is a fantatsic skill to have SH.

 

It highlights how many of us, who have not mastered these skills, do the stupid things we do. We simply do not take the time to look ahead and visualise the consequences of our actions. In my affair, I was very much "living in the moment". When uncomfortable thoughts nagged at me, I would dismiss them with "everything will turn out OK" and "you only live once" kind of dismissive thinking and I think the OW was very similar in this regard.

 

This is a recipe for disaster and we see it all the time here at LS. Inevitably, the undeniable truth that actions are irreversible and have consequences hits us like a slap in the face - usually on some kind of D-day, by which time the whole thing is now a bomb site and the task ahead is a salvage operation rather than a preventative one.

 

All credit to you for researching and mastering this vital life skill early on SH. Your post will certainly lead me to do some reading up on this. This type of visualisation should be one of the very first things we teach our children - and if I'd taken just, say half an hour, to fully engage in this thinking before and during my affair, the destruction ahead would have been obvious from the outset. It beggars belief now that I could be so blind. But...you're never too old to learn as they say!

 

Sorry for going a little off topic, but it's so enjoyable and very valuable to me to exchange these thoughts and messages with you!

[suspiciousH]

Thank you for your kind wishes SH.

 

Thank you also for sharing this knowledge about visualisation. This is a fantatsic skill to have SH.

 

It highlights how many of us, who have not mastered these skills, do the stupid things we do. We simply do not take the time to look ahead and visualise the consequences of our actions. In my affair, I was very much "living in the moment". When uncomfortable thoughts nagged at me, I would dismiss them with "everything will turn out OK" and "you only live once" kind of dismissive thinking and I think the OW was very similar in this regard.

 

This is a recipe for disaster and we see it all the time here at LS. Inevitably, the undeniable truth that actions are irreversible and have consequences hits us like a slap in the face - usually on some kind of D-day, by which time the whole thing is now a bomb site and the task ahead is a salvage operation rather than a preventative one.

 

All credit to you for researching and mastering this vital life skill early on SH. Your post will certainly lead me to do some reading up on this. This type of visualisation should be one of the very first things we teach our children - and if I'd taken just, say half an hour, to fully engage in this thinking before and during my affair, the destruction ahead would have been obvious from the outset. It beggars belief now that I could be so blind. But...you're never too old to learn as they say!

 

Sorry for going a little off topic, but it's so enjoyable and very valuable to me to exchange these thoughts and messages with you!

 

Hey Jenkins -- The link below is a good backgrounder on visualization. All the best!

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/pure-clear-and-vibrant/

[jenkins95]

Hey Jenkins -- The link below is a good backgrounder on visualization. All the best!

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/pure-clear-and-vibrant/

 

Now open in my browser! Thank you so much for this. I will learn a lot from this.

 

And all the very best to you too. Please keep us informed. I'm really rooting for you both!

[suspiciousH]

 

You seem to be hell bent on proving she is guilty and I am hoping you are hell bent on proving she is innocent.

 

You have a completely detailed exit plan...but do you also have a fully detailed STAYING plan? most folks here would say that lying by ommision is still lying....and that goes both ways.

 

But if you find nothing....you will now have a secret between the two of you.....one that could be destructive to the relationship as well.

 

So I guess i am not understanding why you think she was hiding [the FB exchanges]?

 

 

Thanks, MJA. I took your comments more as wrong view than criticism. No worries. Disconfirming points of view are helpful.

 

My detailed staying plan is to (a) stay and (b) let go of the worries by applying visualization and meditation to help with the process. But for whatever reason I have to first understand the reality, whatever it is. But I'm curious as to your view of what I should do if I find nothing. Disclose to my wife? Something else?

 

I'm not sure that I would consider spying a lie of omission. I don't tell my wife what I eat for lunch every day and I wouldn't consider that a lie of omission. Now, spying is far more material than what I ate for lunch. So could you help me understand what types of things you would consider lying by omission and contrast those with other types of omissions you don't consider lying?

 

RE the FB messages: She left her FB account open on the PC before leaving for a trip to visit family. I saw a message notification from the guy on the PC (who happens to live near her family). I read the thread. The exchange had been going on for about a month and she had never mentioned it (or him) to me. Was she hiding something? Was that a lie of omission? Depends on your definition and on her intent, which she said was innocent -- "just friends."

[Superchicken]

RE the FB messages: She left her FB account open on the PC before leaving for a trip to visit family. I saw a message notification from the guy on the PC (who happens to live near her family). I read the thread. The exchange had been going on for about a month and she had never mentioned it (or him) to me. Was she hiding something? Was that a lie of omission? Depends on your definition and on her intent, which she said was innocent -- "just friends."

 

 

 

WHAT !!!!.

Now you mention it..

Oh dude, its just gone up a notch.. The guy lives near where she was visiting ?.. Na, for sure now, in my mind (Blues will kick in a minute or two) she's done more than type on a keyboard.

I know its not what you want to hear, and I hope I'm wrong..

 

 

 

WHAT !!!!.

 

 

Ted.

[suspiciousH]

WHAT !!!!.

Now you mention it..

Oh dude, its just gone up a notch.. The guy lives near where she was visiting ?.. Na, for sure now, in my mind (Blues will kick in a minute or two) she's done more than type on a keyboard.

 

Hey SC -- I didn't see any change in her behavior whatsoever after her trip, and we had the conversation I mentioned the day she got back. She never mentioned the trip to him in the FB thread. And I have to believe that nothing happened.

[Superchicken]

Hey SC -- I didn't see any change in her behavior whatsoever after her trip, and we had the conversation I mentioned the day she got back. She never mentioned the trip to him in the FB thread. And I have to believe that nothing happened.

 

To easy to get caught..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't let it go too easy..

Everything adds up in the long run.

 

 

 

 

Ted.

[BluesPower]

I was not going to kick in... until he found something, and then you I would gloat a little, of course not to OP.

 

But it might have been better to lead with that OP (Original Poster).

 

Here is the deal. She had an EA (and yes it was and EA) with the FB Guy.

 

Then she goes with Mom to visit relatives that happen to live near FB Guy. Mom is older so she tells Mom that she is going to see Betty Sue and of course Mom just wants to visit and go to bed early. She goes and sleeps with FB Guy.

 

Totally plausible and totally easy to get away with. Hubby see open face book and messages that are not cool, and confronts her and she says "Just Friends". Then she takes the affair underground because Hubby is suspicious.

 

Did this happen? I don't know. But OP you need to find out, because your gut is almost never wrong.

[suspiciousH]

I was not going to kick in... until he found something, and then you I would gloat a little, of course not to OP.

 

But it might have been better to lead with that OP (Original Poster).

 

Here is the deal. She had an EA (and yes it was and EA) with the FB Guy.

 

Then she goes with Mom to visit relatives that happen to live near FB Guy. Mom is older so she tells Mom that she is going to see Betty Sue and of course Mom just wants to visit and go to bed early. She goes and sleeps with FB Guy.

 

Totally plausible and totally easy to get away with. Hubby see open face book and messages that are not cool, and confronts her and she says "Just Friends". Then she takes the affair underground because Hubby is suspicious.

 

Did this happen? I don't know. But OP you need to find out, because your gut is almost never wrong.

 

I hear you, Blues. Believe me, despite the fact that several posters think I'm a nut for investigating, I'm absolutely doing so.

 

One question I posed to another poster was never answered so I'll ask you: Is two months long enough to investigate?

[suspiciousH]

When ypu say over the top flirting, who is she flirting with?

 

 

Hey Mickey -- I don't believe I answered your question above. I've seen her flirt with dads (two or three of them, anyway) at my kids' sporting events. Also a neighbor and the project manager who oversaw the construction of a new house I had built. Those are the ones that stand out.

 

I suspect that she is attracted to the strong, sexy handyman type (that some women fantasize about as also being secret millionaires) since I am decidedly white collar and don't enjoy spending my free time fixing things. (My idea of handy is that I use my hand to pick up my phone to engage someone who knows what they're doing to fix the house, landscape, mow lawns, etc.).

[Mrs. John Adams]

I don't think you are a nut for investigating... I just think there is a balance as to how much and how deep to investigate.

 

Cautiously optimistic... that's where I am. I understand your concern...

My approach may be different than yours... I am the kind to face the issue straight ahead kind of person.

 

If I have a question... I ask.

 

But you are not me.. so I respect your approach. And the fellas here have tons of investigative information to help direct you.

 

But if it were me... and I am well aware it isn't... and my husband had a question about something.. I wish he would just ask me.

 

Folks here say that's the wrong way to approach it. Never show your hand first...well maybe that's the right way.. and I would have egg on my face.

 

Anyway.. please don't think that I think you are a nut... because I don't. Ok?

[mikeylo]

Hey Mickey -- I don't believe I answered your question above. I've seen her flirt with dads (two or three of them, anyway) at my kids' sporting events. Also a neighbor and the project manager who oversaw the construction of a new house I had built. Those are the ones that stand out.

 

I suspect that she is attracted to the strong, sexy handyman type (that some women fantasize about as also being secret millionaires) since I am decidedly white collar and don't enjoy spending my free time fixing things. (My idea of handy is that I use my hand to pick up my phone to engage someone who knows what they're doing to fix the house, landscape, mow lawns, etc.).

 

What was done to put a stop to that? Flirting is cheating.I hope you consider that as well. Because it went unchecked, she took a step ahead. Since you even saw the messages and didnt make much of it, she is pushing the limits further and further.

 

2 months is not enough. She could be 'underground' or hiding it better

[BetrayedDad]

I'll offer this, my WW said she stopped her affair for periods as short as a month and as long as 14 months...take that for what it's worth. From what I'm told, they kept communicating for most of the time. The worst thing I did was say something to her whenever I got suspicious...all that did was make them stop for a little bit or make them change the way they communicated. This resulted in 4 years if misery.

[suspiciousH]

I don't think you are a nut for investigating... I just think there is a balance as to how much and how deep to investigate.

 

Cautiously optimistic... that's where I am. I understand your concern...

My approach may be different than yours... I am the kind to face the issue straight ahead kind of person.

 

If I have a question... I ask.

 

But you are not me.. so I respect your approach. And the fellas here have tons of investigative information to help direct you.

 

But if it were me... and I am well aware it isn't... and my husband had a question about something.. I wish he would just ask me.

 

Folks here say that's the wrong way to approach it. Never show your hand first...well maybe that's the right way.. and I would have egg on my face.

 

Anyway.. please don't think that I think you are a nut... because I don't. Ok?

 

Fair enough, MJA. Just so you know, my wife and I have talked about my worries in general terms. For instance, a buddy and I went out for a drinks a while back and he told me that his long-term girlfriend has been getting close to a golf pro (texting a lot, playing in a twosome with him frequently, etc.). I told him that was bad news and shared my own worries with him. A couple days later he forwarded me an article written by some f***ing SOB who claimed to be the world's greatest philanderer and who laid out the techniques he uses to seduce (and later dump) married women. I forwarded it to my wife and the article provided an opportunity for a long and open discussion on the topic that night.

 

Anyway, so far she is sympathetic to and patient with my worries for the most part.

[suspiciousH]

What was done to put a stop to that? Flirting is cheating.I hope you consider that as well. Because it went unchecked, she took a step ahead. Since you even saw the messages and didnt make much of it, she is pushing the limits further and further.

 

2 months is not enough. She could be 'underground' or hiding it better

 

Hey Mikey -- I would put flirting and cheating in different categories.

 

In each case of flirting I raised my concerns (and in one case I walked off the soccer field and said I'd talk to her later). I told/reminded her that flipping of the hair, showing her neck, touching her face, and her repeatedly touching the arm of another guy is 100% flirting in my book. She said that she wasn't aware of the signals that women send and that the occurrences were unintentional. After I saw her do that with the project manager I showed her a Youtube video on the signals that women send to express interest.

[suspiciousH]

I'll offer this, my WW said she stopped her affair for periods as short as a month and as long as 14 months...take that for what it's worth. From what I'm told, they kept communicating for most of the time. The worst thing I did was say something to her whenever I got suspicious...all that did was make them stop for a little bit or make them change the way they communicated. This resulted in 4 years if misery.

 

Wow. Fair warning. Thanks.

[MickeyBill]

Hey Mickey -- I don't believe I answered your question above. I've seen her flirt with dads (two or three of them, anyway) at my kids' sporting events. Also a neighbor and the project manager who oversaw the construction of a new house I had built. Those are the ones that stand out.

 

I suspect that she is attracted to the strong, sexy handyman type (that some women fantasize about as also being secret millionaires) since I am decidedly white collar and don't enjoy spending my free time fixing things. (My idea of handy is that I use my hand to pick up my phone to engage someone who knows what they're doing to fix the house, landscape, mow lawns, etc.).

 

 

So your tool box is like Steve Martin's in "LA Story" it had a Visa card in it.

 

If she is flirting in front of you with rugged contractor, carpenter, Harrison Ford (he built decks before the acting thing took off) types that could be big red flag. And pretty disrespectful, sending an "I'm available" vibe while you are there with her...

[MickeyBill]

Hey Mikey -- I would put flirting and cheating in different categories.

 

 

As my grandpappy would have said "There ain't cheatin' without flirtin'. "

 

And she knows when she's flirting because of the positive reaction of the flirtee. She's not an idiot.

[mikeylo]

Hey Mikey -- I would put flirting and cheating in different categories.

 

In each case of flirting I raised my concerns (and in one case I walked off the soccer field and said I'd talk to her later). I told/reminded her that flipping of the hair, showing her neck, touching her face, and her repeatedly touching the arm of another guy is 100% flirting in my book. She said that she wasn't aware of the signals that women send and that the occurrences were unintentional. After I saw her do that with the project manager I showed her a Youtube video on the signals that women send to express interest.

 

How old is she ? She is taking you for a ride ! She knows exactly what she is doing.

 

And yeah, flirting is cheating. Wake up man !

[suspiciousH]

How old is she ? She is taking you for a ride ! She knows exactly what she is doing.

 

And yeah, flirting is cheating. Wake up man !

 

She is 46.

[suspiciousH]

So your tool box is like Steve Martin's in "LA Story" it had a Visa card in it.

 

If she is flirting in front of you with rugged contractor, carpenter, Harrison Ford (he built decks before the acting thing took off) types that could be big red flag. And pretty disrespectful, sending an "I'm available" vibe while you are there with her...

 

I agree and I hate it. Whenever an attractive woman acts that way towards me I end up with fantasies that I sometimes have to visualize my way out of. That said, I haven't seen much of it in the last six months. Hopefully that means she's taken my concerns to heart.

[QuietDan]

I agree and I hate it. Whenever an attractive woman acts that way towards me I end up with fantasies that I sometimes have to visualize my way out of. That said, I haven't seen much of it in the last six months. Hopefully that means she's taken my concerns to heart.

Did you discuss why she was flirting? Did you discuss how it affects you? What sort of future relationship? Since you were playing Dad with her, and she was acting like a teenager who was caught doing something wrong, it doesn't sound like the situation was resolved in an adult fashion. So, I suspect she is just being more careful that dad doesn't catch her. It sounds like wayward tendencies and activities. So, wayward level lies and manipulation is also likely.

Good luck and happy detective work and hunting.

[Bastile]

The things is, getting hit on is not uncommon for young women, married or not. That is just reality. It is how she reacts that makes the difference.

 

I agree, that is the crux. And I find this a difficult thing to accept myself.

 

Women just get hit on a lot. Hell, I've taken out attractive women that have been hit on whilst I've had them on a date.

 

Then, women naturally filter these guys in a passive mode. Where, as men, we naturally have to work harder to consider the same sort of options.

 

What that means is that in exclusive relationships, I make no effort at hitting on any other women. My skills get rusty. Meanwhile, the girlfriend is getting hit on by other guys.

 

Sure, as men we get the odd overt high-interest woman. But, and as a decent looking guy, I would say that happens just a few times in a year. It's much more for women.

 

An emphasis does need to be placed on how a woman deals with that sort of attention - her boundaries. And a woman that has long chats with a guy that is openly hitting on her is leaving the door open for something to happen.

 

I've hit on plenty of women who are meant to be unnavailable. And I know the difference from the other side. Women who leave the door open a bit, have loose boundaries. Loose boundaries lead to having sex, and then coming out with things like "I don't know how that happened!". Once again, taking the passive mode. Smart guys learn to allow women to place the blame on them and get comfortable being the villain.

 

Your wife probably isn't cheating (other than emotionally). But she is somewhat open to it. That leads to a very frustrating situation for you.

 

What do you think of the possible situation of her not cheating, but seeming open to it? You've been with her a quarter of a century, and it must be a very difficult position.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Bastile

[suspiciousH]

I've hit on plenty of women who are meant to be unnavailable. And I know the difference from the other side. Women who leave the door open a bit, have loose boundaries. Loose boundaries lead to having sex, and then coming out with things like "I don't know how that happened!". Once again, taking the passive mode. Smart guys learn to allow women to place the blame on them and get comfortable being the villain.

 

What do you think of the possible situation of her not cheating, but seeming open to it? You've been with her a quarter of a century, and it must be a very difficult position.

 

Bastile -- Thoughtful post.

 

Openness to cheating and actual cheating are different in magnitude but I couldn't live with either. Both would leave me in a morass of doubt and anger and I simply wouldn't live that way. But I consider myself a forgiving person, and I can let go of a very temporary curiosity that led to a stupid chat so long as it's not a behavioral pattern.

 

Question: Why do you hit on women who are unavailable? I ask not only because of the obvious integrity questions it raises but because it seems to me that an attached woman who is open to cheating isn't useful for anything beyond sex. For example, I've read a number of OW posts on LS to better understand the underlying psychology (or psychosis) of the WW. Almost without exception these women are grotesquely narcissistic. And were the state of their minds/hearts reflected in their physical appearance they would look like the exceptionally vain woman who disfigured herself with cooking oil in a misguided attempt to beautify herself, as described (and pictured) in the following article:

 

Cosmetic surgery addict injected cooking oil into her own face - Telegraph