Is my wife hiding something?

[Aqulesco]

Those skype sessions are probably smoking hott. The secretive illicitness adds to the intensity

[suspiciousH]

Stillafool, like zombiehead's wife?

 

This thread and his seem intertwined at some level. Suspicious, you should read Zombie's thread (it's up to over a thousand comments) and post your thoughts here if your wife is acting the same as your's.

 

Just read the first seven pages of Zombiehead's original post. I would say that his experience started differently and his wife displayed much more advanced signs of an affair than mine has thus far. In my wife's case: no nude photos that I know of, no phone guarding, no refusal to provide access to phone, no major physical changes, no new lingerie that I have found, etc.

[merrmeade]

Hey Mikey -- I would put flirting and cheating in different categories.

 

In each case of flirting I raised my concerns (and in one case I walked off the soccer field and said I'd talk to her later). I told/reminded her that flipping of the hair, showing her neck, touching her face, and her repeatedly touching the arm of another guy is 100% flirting in my book. She said that she wasn't aware of the signals that women send and that the occurrences were unintentional. After I saw her do that with the project manager I showed her a Youtube video on the signals that women send to express interest.

So I've read this entire thread just now. A couple of things...

 

First, the conversation about flirting and cheating: My experience is that they are inextricably linked within ONE category. It's simple: Flirting leads to cheating. And believing her when she says that she's not "aware of the signals" and the "occurrences were unintentional" is a mistake IMO.

 

Flirting is a thrill. There's the chase and conquest, tease and response, innuendo and acknowledgement, all creating sexual tension. If circumstances allow enough contact, the back-and-forth repartee and oblique, suggestive double entendres build electricity until one day those friendly, brief touches get sexual and go further, deeper, longer.

 

In my husband's case, he had no clear boundary where flirting stopped and lumped petting in with flirting because that's how it started. But any innocence they feign about what's right and wrong about these behaviors is just that - a feint that barely fools the listener, much less the teller.

 

Like suspiciousH, I used to have conversations with my husband about interactions I'd observed that made me uncomfortable. Similarly, he'd express lack of awareness or intention. I can't say I bought it entirely, but I couldn't imagine or swallow the possibility that it was anything other than innocent. Therefore, like sH, I lectured him on 'how it looks.' Well, now he's admitted to five affairs, both emotional and physical, that ALL started with flirting. I now know that he didn't know any other way to interact with women and blamed them. Messed up - I know.

 

I'm just telling you this, sH, to get you to start thinking about the fact that she may be playing you, too. I don't give my husband one iota of margin for this kind of bullshyte any more and he knows it. He wouldn't dare. The closest he's come was with a recent client, whose texts I came across and noticed were a shade too personal. Called him on it, got denial but not really. It was denial in words, but we both knew I was right.

 

And that leads to the other point I want to make about the way you all have been talking about flirting. This dissected argument about hair twisting is a silly but dangerous red herring. Obviously, most of us are inexperienced flirters - compared to these examples, but, good grief, everybody flirts differently. The point is that on some level there's a biological and psychological response to each other's body language and verbal responses, which has unmistakable sexual overtones. You're going to miss the real thing if you limit it to the short list of hair-twisting, arm touches and whatever else you've been debating. There's the 'look,' joking, the voice inflection, smile, laugh, sitting position, and so on that some people master at a very young age, but most don't make YouTube videos about it or even discuss it.

Edited July 1, 2017 by merrmeade

[merrmeade]

Just want to suggest another line of 'investigation.' Check all her credit card and bank statements as well as app purchases. Look at all purchases on the computer and on the statements. If it's out of the ordinary or raises questions about intention or receiver, then look further. If you thought she was meeting someone, then look for restaurant, motels, plane trips, gifts, etc. Think that anything is possible. Don't assume -

 

- until you've exhausted resources and you're satisfied. Then, you stop all this.

[Zona]

46 would be an odd age for her to be getting all flirty and hypersexual. She's getting pretty close to menopause, so her estrogen and especially progesterone levels are likely dropping pretty low. Does she take the birth control pill? That can mask the hormone drop.

[Bastile]

Bastile -- Thoughtful post.

 

Openness to cheating and actual cheating are different in magnitude but I couldn't live with either. Both would leave me in a morass of doubt and anger and I simply wouldn't live that way. But I consider myself a forgiving person, and I can let go of a very temporary curiosity that led to a stupid chat so long as it's not a behavioral pattern.

 

Question: Why do you hit on women who are unavailable? I ask not only because of the obvious integrity questions it raises but because it seems to me that an attached woman who is open to cheating isn't useful for anything beyond sex. For example, I've read a number of OW posts on LS to better understand the underlying psychology (or psychosis) of the WW. Almost without exception these women are grotesquely narcissistic. And were the state of their minds/hearts reflected in their physical appearance they would look like the exceptionally vain woman who disfigured herself with cooking oil in a misguided attempt to beautify herself, as described (and pictured) in the following article:

 

Cosmetic surgery addict injected cooking oil into her own face - Telegraph

 

I have found life to not be quite so black and white. Otherwise it wouldn't hurt my poor brain so much.

 

I would like to say how much I respect the great husband that you seem to be. That's part of why I'm interested in your thread. Maybe I could be there one day myself in your shoes?

 

I would veer towards that she hasn't cheated on you, but she is behaving unacceptably. She's clearly leading guys on, and then she gaslighting you with the "friends" business when you called her on it.

 

Very difficult position for which there are no easy answers.

[S2B]

The biggest factor in flirting is eye contact...and how LONG you keep it.

 

No matter what - if she wishes to look at someone with intention - she's not going to allow you to control her.

 

YOU can't make her stop eye contact.

 

It is what signals a person to fully understand another person is interested.

 

Touching isn't necessary to send an interested signal. The eyes tell all.

[suspiciousH]

My experience is that they are inextricably linked within ONE category. It's simple: Flirting leads to cheating. And believing her when she says that she's not "aware of the signals" and the "occurrences were unintentional" is a mistake IMO.

 

 

Merrmeade -- You're a clear thinker and an excellent writer. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll add a financial review to my diligence list.

[suspiciousH]

I have found life to not be quite so black and white. Otherwise it wouldn't hurt my poor brain so much.

 

I would like to say how much I respect the great husband that you seem to be. That's part of why I'm interested in your thread. Maybe I could be there one day myself in your shoes?

 

I would veer towards that she hasn't cheated on you, but she is behaving unacceptably. She's clearly leading guys on, and then she gaslighting you with the "friends" business when you called her on it.

 

Very difficult position for which there are no easy answers.

 

You're right that life doesn't always (often) resolve to the binary. But one basic rule we can all use to guide our choices is, "Are my choices damaging, or likely to damage, someone else?" In the case of seducing an attached woman you are damaging her SO if not the woman herself. More so if she's married.

 

If a business partner of my company breaches it's agreement I'm likely to sue the partner if we can't come to terms in a arbitration of some sort. Marriage is a contract, albeit one that has lost its remedies clause, perhaps owing to the fact that it's breached so often and governments don't want to crowd their courtrooms with contract cases brought by a sea of wronged spouses. But that doesn't mean that we as individuals should behave any way we want just because the potential penalties for ourselves are de minimis.

 

More broadly, it could be argued that Victorian morality was simply a reaction to the personal excesses of a prior era. Yes, an over-correction, but still a response to the societal consequences of social mores in the Middle and Renaissance Ages. 150 years ago and before it was perfectly acceptable to kill a man in a duel for bedding your wife if you had the skill and inclination to a take a life. I wonder if the collective excesses of our age will bequest to our grandchildren and great-grandchildren a similar fate.

[Just a Guy]

Hi SH, yes the pendulum swings the other way with unerring regularity, so I guess you can expect Victorian morality or some form of it to manifest itself in the future. However, that does not solve your problem. Warm wishes.

[suspiciousH]

46 would be an odd age for her to be getting all flirty and hypersexual. She's getting pretty close to menopause, so her estrogen and especially progesterone levels are likely dropping pretty low. Does she take the birth control pill? That can mask the hormone drop.

 

She's not on birth control to my knowledge. I've just read that 45 is the peak cheating age for married women. Maybe that's apocryphal.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am assuming you have not yet uncovered anything new? or have you put investigating on hold?

 

You really have not had any updates and i thought you were moving very quickly to find out something.

[suspiciousH]

I am assuming you have not yet uncovered anything new? or have you put investigating on hold?

 

You really have not had any updates and i thought you were moving very quickly to find out something.

 

I set up ActivTrak, GPS, and VAR yesterday. Broadband receiver, motion-sensitive video, and FoneLab (Dr. Fone) will be up within several days.

[wmacbride]

Well, I wouldn't quite call the FB thread I stumbled on nothing. Some people would define what I saw on FB as an EA. But I don't because I didn't see any "I love you's," sexting, or plans for the future.

 

I'm also troubled by last summer's texting stats. From what I've read on LS that's a material smoking gun.

 

Op,

I'm saying this to you gently, and as a bs who has been able to reconcile.

 

Please, stop all the cloak and dagger crap. While voice activated recorders, keyloggers, etc. have a place, it sounds like you are crossing the line, in your mind, from questioning to obsessiveness.

 

Ask yourself this. If you go through all of that and find nothing, do you think you'll be able to let it go?

 

I'm not saying she isn't cheating, or that she is. I don't know. In my opinion ( and this could be way off) I would start off by sitting down with her and having a very serious discussion. Lay out what you have found, why you are suspicious, and that it has reached a point where you need complete honesty with her or you will feel forced to take the next step ( whatever that might be for you). Let her know that she is doing you no favors by hiding things from you, and that if there is a problem, you need to know about it. Also, tell her what you need from her to quell your suspicions. If she is hiding nothing, while she may be ticked at you for not trusting her, she won't mind sharing. If she is defensive or tries to deflect ( " why don't you trust me? you are so horrible for not trusting me" kind of thing. while refusing to show you what you are looking for) you have a problem.

 

She may well come clean ( if she is hiding anything), and if she doesn't, and you are still suspicious, it's time to dig.

 

One thing to ask yourself though, is at what point, if you have dug and found nothing, will you be satisfied she hasn't cheated?

 

Whatever you find or don't find, she has broken an agreement with you about boundaries, and that is very serious, even if no cheating has taken place. This is an important conversation you need to have with her.

[Zona]

I set up ActivTrak, GPS, and VAR yesterday. Broadband receiver, motion-sensitive video, and FoneLab (Dr. Fone) will be up within several days.

 

Yeah, good idea, go all out in one big push, and then if you don't find any smoking gun, move on. I would recommend taking a break from LS for a while if you don't find anything. Reading too much here can be hard on you psychologically and make you overly suspicious, even if she comes up clean.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed for you! Hopefully you find your wife is actually loyal and loving in all she does when it comes to you and your family. That would be the best case scenario obviously.

[suspiciousH]

Op,

I'm saying this to you gently, and as a bs who has been able to reconcile.

 

Please, stop all the cloak and dagger crap. While voice activated recorders, keyloggers, etc. have a place, it sounds like you are crossing the line, in your mind, from questioning to obsessiveness.

 

Ask yourself this. If you go through all of that and find nothing, do you think you'll be able to let it go?

 

I'm not saying she isn't cheating, or that she is. I don't know. In my opinion ( and this could be way off) I would start off by sitting down with her and having a very serious discussion. Lay out what you have found, why you are suspicious, and that it has reached a point where you need complete honesty with her or you will feel forced to take the next step ( whatever that might be for you). Let her know that she is doing you no favors by hiding things from you, and that if there is a problem, you need to know about it. Also, tell her what you need from her to quell your suspicions. If she is hiding nothing, while she may be ticked at you for not trusting her, she won't mind sharing. If she is defensive or tries to deflect ( " why don't you trust me? you are so horrible for not trusting me" kind of thing. while refusing to show you what you are looking for) you have a problem.

 

She may well come clean ( if she is hiding anything), and if she doesn't, and you are still suspicious, it's time to dig.

 

One thing to ask yourself though, is at what point, if you have dug and found nothing, will you be satisfied she hasn't cheated?

 

Whatever you find or don't find, she has broken an agreement with you about boundaries, and that is very serious, even if no cheating has taken place. This is an important conversation you need to have with her.

 

Thanks, Wmacbride. I've had several chats with her about my worries including a very serious discussion after I discovered the FB chat three years ago. But I've never asked her if she was cheating or if I have full access to truly everything because I feel that those questions are over-the-top, and probably inflammatory, given my observations thus far.

 

As you can read from the comments in this thread I've received many different opinions about whether or not I should spy and how long I should do so. At this point I've decided two months is reasonable. If I find nothing then I hope that I'm adult enough to let things go.

[suspiciousH]

I would recommend taking a break from LS for a while if you don't find anything.

 

Excellent counsel -- thanks!

[Mrs. John Adams]

Thanks, Wmacbride. I've had several chats with her about my worries including a very serious discussion after I discovered the FB chat three years ago. But I've never asked her if she was cheating or if I have full access to truly everything because I feel that those questions are over-the-top, and probably inflammatory, given my observations thus far.

 

As you can read from the comments in this thread I've received many different opinions about whether or not I should spy and how long I should do so. At this point I've decided two months is reasonable. If I find nothing then I hope that I'm adult enough to let things go.

 

I am still trying to understand what happened and why this has all become an issue for you.

 

The facebook messages were three years ago...you talked about it....and nothing has surfaced in the last three years for you to be an investigator.

 

You say there have been no changes...no physical changes...no fights or disagreements...nothing to cause you to now three years later decide to spend all this money and time to spy on her.

 

Try as i might...I cannot wrap my head around this....now granted...it doesn't matter what i think...but if i am having trouble understanding there are others who are also having a hard time understanding.

[suspiciousH]

I am still trying to understand what happened and why this has all become an issue for you.

 

The facebook messages were three years ago...you talked about it....and nothing has surfaced in the last three years for you to be an investigator.

 

You say there have been no changes...no physical changes...no fights or disagreements...nothing to cause you to now three years later decide to spend all this money and time to spy on her.

 

Try as i might...I cannot wrap my head around this....now granted...it doesn't matter what i think...but if i am having trouble understanding there are others who are also having a hard time understanding.

 

As I've stated several times in this thread my gut started sounding off in August. I had previously picked up on a change in her (e.g., flirting I don't remember observing before). Then the discovery of unusual summer '16 text frequency three weeks ago. Is it so unusual to have little evidence when the gut feeling arrives? Not from what I read on LS.

[suspiciousH]

Anyway, it's probably best for me to take Zona's advice and go dark on LS unless I find something. If I do I'll be back for more counsel. If not then you can all take a sigh of relief that a kook of a husband got it all wrong and has learned his lesson.

[mikeylo]

So I've read this entire thread just now. A couple of things...

 

First, the conversation about flirting and cheating: My experience is that they are inextricably linked within ONE category. It's simple: Flirting leads to cheating. And believing her when she says that she's not "aware of the signals" and the "occurrences were unintentional" is a mistake IMO.

 

Flirting is a thrill. There's the chase and conquest, tease and response, innuendo and acknowledgement, all creating sexual tension. If circumstances allow enough contact, the back-and-forth repartee and oblique, suggestive double entendres build electricity until one day those friendly, brief touches get sexual and go further, deeper, longer.

 

In my husband's case, he had no clear boundary where flirting stopped and lumped petting in with flirting because that's how it started. But any innocence they feign about what's right and wrong about these behaviors is just that - a feint that barely fools the listener, much less the teller.

 

Like suspiciousH, I used to have conversations with my husband about interactions I'd observed that made me uncomfortable. Similarly, he'd express lack of awareness or intention. I can't say I bought it entirely, but I couldn't imagine or swallow the possibility that it was anything other than innocent. Therefore, like sH, I lectured him on 'how it looks.' Well, now he's admitted to five affairs, both emotional and physical, that ALL started with flirting. I now know that he didn't know any other way to interact with women and blamed them. Messed up - I know.

 

I'm just telling you this, sH, to get you to start thinking about the fact that she may be playing you, too. I don't give my husband one iota of margin for this kind of bullshyte any more and he knows it. He wouldn't dare. The closest he's come was with a recent client, whose texts I came across and noticed were a shade too personal. Called him on it, got denial but not really. It was denial in words, but we both knew I was right.

 

And that leads to the other point I want to make about the way you all have been talking about flirting. This dissected argument about hair twisting is a silly but dangerous red herring. Obviously, most of us are inexperienced flirters - compared to these examples, but, good grief, everybody flirts differently. The point is that on some level there's a biological and psychological response to each other's body language and verbal responses, which has unmistakable sexual overtones. You're going to miss the real thing if you limit it to the short list of hair-twisting, arm touches and whatever else you've been debating. There's the 'look,' joking, the voice inflection, smile, laugh, sitting position, and so on that some people master at a very young age, but most don't make YouTube videos about it or even discuss it.

 

Very well put to my short , flirting is cheating.

 

Flirting has an agenda. The only person I ever flirted was the woman I was dating, at any given point. Once I committed to my wife , I never flirted with anyone. Honestly , there was no time or energy left as I put those in her. I flirted with her.

If you are flirting with another person then you are making them laugh , ego boost , thrill , touching , and before you know it , flirting with this person becomes more exciting than own partner. Your partner will complain but your other person will never complain and there you go to the other person over and over again !

 

I've always believed that flirting is cheating.

[Mrs. John Adams]

As I've stated several times in this thread my gut started sounding off in August. I had previously picked up on a change in her (e.g., flirting I don't remember observing before). Then the discovery of unusual summer '16 text frequency three weeks ago. Is it so unusual to have little evidence when the gut feeling arrives? Not from what I read on LS.

 

So this is really all about those extra texts that one month? Did you contact the phone company and simply ask for a copy of the texts? Is that possible to do? Can you at least could get the phone number the texts went to?

 

Are you open to the fact that this could be you and not her? I mean... sometimes its our perception rather than fact.

 

You seem to have a great marriage...I cant understand why you cannot just talk about it and ask her? I know the fellas want you to investigate first and ask later...but it seems like you have great communication skills and are a very good husband.

[suspiciousH]

So this is really all about those extra texts that one month? Did you contact the phone company and simply ask for a copy of the texts? Is that possible to do? Can you at least could get the phone number the texts went to?

 

Are you open to the fact that this could be you and not her? I mean... sometimes its our perception rather than fact.

 

You seem to have a great marriage...I cant understand why you cannot just talk about it and ask her? I know the fellas want you to investigate first and ask later...but it seems like you have great communication skills and are a very good husband.

 

MJA -- Please re-read the thread. Asked and answered. Could it be me? Sure.

 

I'm going dark now because this is becoming tiresome.

[Mrs. John Adams]

MJA -- Please re-read the thread. Asked and answered. Could it be me? Sure.

 

I'm going dark now because this is becoming tiresome.

 

I understand...i get it...you have a great day.

[S2B]

I hope you will update when you have new info - either way.

 

Good luck.