Is my wife hiding something?

[suspiciousH]

My experience is that they are inextricably linked within ONE category. It's simple: Flirting leads to cheating. And believing her when she says that she's not "aware of the signals" and the "occurrences were unintentional" is a mistake IMO.

 

 

Merrmeade -- You're a clear thinker and an excellent writer. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'll add a financial review to my diligence list.

[suspiciousH]

I have found life to not be quite so black and white. Otherwise it wouldn't hurt my poor brain so much.

 

I would like to say how much I respect the great husband that you seem to be. That's part of why I'm interested in your thread. Maybe I could be there one day myself in your shoes?

 

I would veer towards that she hasn't cheated on you, but she is behaving unacceptably. She's clearly leading guys on, and then she gaslighting you with the "friends" business when you called her on it.

 

Very difficult position for which there are no easy answers.

 

You're right that life doesn't always (often) resolve to the binary. But one basic rule we can all use to guide our choices is, "Are my choices damaging, or likely to damage, someone else?" In the case of seducing an attached woman you are damaging her SO if not the woman herself. More so if she's married.

 

If a business partner of my company breaches it's agreement I'm likely to sue the partner if we can't come to terms in a arbitration of some sort. Marriage is a contract, albeit one that has lost its remedies clause, perhaps owing to the fact that it's breached so often and governments don't want to crowd their courtrooms with contract cases brought by a sea of wronged spouses. But that doesn't mean that we as individuals should behave any way we want just because the potential penalties for ourselves are de minimis.

 

More broadly, it could be argued that Victorian morality was simply a reaction to the personal excesses of a prior era. Yes, an over-correction, but still a response to the societal consequences of social mores in the Middle and Renaissance Ages. 150 years ago and before it was perfectly acceptable to kill a man in a duel for bedding your wife if you had the skill and inclination to a take a life. I wonder if the collective excesses of our age will bequest to our grandchildren and great-grandchildren a similar fate.

[Just a Guy]

Hi SH, yes the pendulum swings the other way with unerring regularity, so I guess you can expect Victorian morality or some form of it to manifest itself in the future. However, that does not solve your problem. Warm wishes.

[suspiciousH]

46 would be an odd age for her to be getting all flirty and hypersexual. She's getting pretty close to menopause, so her estrogen and especially progesterone levels are likely dropping pretty low. Does she take the birth control pill? That can mask the hormone drop.

 

She's not on birth control to my knowledge. I've just read that 45 is the peak cheating age for married women. Maybe that's apocryphal.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am assuming you have not yet uncovered anything new? or have you put investigating on hold?

 

You really have not had any updates and i thought you were moving very quickly to find out something.

[suspiciousH]

I am assuming you have not yet uncovered anything new? or have you put investigating on hold?

 

You really have not had any updates and i thought you were moving very quickly to find out something.

 

I set up ActivTrak, GPS, and VAR yesterday. Broadband receiver, motion-sensitive video, and FoneLab (Dr. Fone) will be up within several days.

[wmacbride]

Well, I wouldn't quite call the FB thread I stumbled on nothing. Some people would define what I saw on FB as an EA. But I don't because I didn't see any "I love you's," sexting, or plans for the future.

 

I'm also troubled by last summer's texting stats. From what I've read on LS that's a material smoking gun.

 

Op,

I'm saying this to you gently, and as a bs who has been able to reconcile.

 

Please, stop all the cloak and dagger crap. While voice activated recorders, keyloggers, etc. have a place, it sounds like you are crossing the line, in your mind, from questioning to obsessiveness.

 

Ask yourself this. If you go through all of that and find nothing, do you think you'll be able to let it go?

 

I'm not saying she isn't cheating, or that she is. I don't know. In my opinion ( and this could be way off) I would start off by sitting down with her and having a very serious discussion. Lay out what you have found, why you are suspicious, and that it has reached a point where you need complete honesty with her or you will feel forced to take the next step ( whatever that might be for you). Let her know that she is doing you no favors by hiding things from you, and that if there is a problem, you need to know about it. Also, tell her what you need from her to quell your suspicions. If she is hiding nothing, while she may be ticked at you for not trusting her, she won't mind sharing. If she is defensive or tries to deflect ( " why don't you trust me? you are so horrible for not trusting me" kind of thing. while refusing to show you what you are looking for) you have a problem.

 

She may well come clean ( if she is hiding anything), and if she doesn't, and you are still suspicious, it's time to dig.

 

One thing to ask yourself though, is at what point, if you have dug and found nothing, will you be satisfied she hasn't cheated?

 

Whatever you find or don't find, she has broken an agreement with you about boundaries, and that is very serious, even if no cheating has taken place. This is an important conversation you need to have with her.

[Zona]

I set up ActivTrak, GPS, and VAR yesterday. Broadband receiver, motion-sensitive video, and FoneLab (Dr. Fone) will be up within several days.

 

Yeah, good idea, go all out in one big push, and then if you don't find any smoking gun, move on. I would recommend taking a break from LS for a while if you don't find anything. Reading too much here can be hard on you psychologically and make you overly suspicious, even if she comes up clean.

 

Keeping my fingers crossed for you! Hopefully you find your wife is actually loyal and loving in all she does when it comes to you and your family. That would be the best case scenario obviously.

[suspiciousH]

Op,

I'm saying this to you gently, and as a bs who has been able to reconcile.

 

Please, stop all the cloak and dagger crap. While voice activated recorders, keyloggers, etc. have a place, it sounds like you are crossing the line, in your mind, from questioning to obsessiveness.

 

Ask yourself this. If you go through all of that and find nothing, do you think you'll be able to let it go?

 

I'm not saying she isn't cheating, or that she is. I don't know. In my opinion ( and this could be way off) I would start off by sitting down with her and having a very serious discussion. Lay out what you have found, why you are suspicious, and that it has reached a point where you need complete honesty with her or you will feel forced to take the next step ( whatever that might be for you). Let her know that she is doing you no favors by hiding things from you, and that if there is a problem, you need to know about it. Also, tell her what you need from her to quell your suspicions. If she is hiding nothing, while she may be ticked at you for not trusting her, she won't mind sharing. If she is defensive or tries to deflect ( " why don't you trust me? you are so horrible for not trusting me" kind of thing. while refusing to show you what you are looking for) you have a problem.

 

She may well come clean ( if she is hiding anything), and if she doesn't, and you are still suspicious, it's time to dig.

 

One thing to ask yourself though, is at what point, if you have dug and found nothing, will you be satisfied she hasn't cheated?

 

Whatever you find or don't find, she has broken an agreement with you about boundaries, and that is very serious, even if no cheating has taken place. This is an important conversation you need to have with her.

 

Thanks, Wmacbride. I've had several chats with her about my worries including a very serious discussion after I discovered the FB chat three years ago. But I've never asked her if she was cheating or if I have full access to truly everything because I feel that those questions are over-the-top, and probably inflammatory, given my observations thus far.

 

As you can read from the comments in this thread I've received many different opinions about whether or not I should spy and how long I should do so. At this point I've decided two months is reasonable. If I find nothing then I hope that I'm adult enough to let things go.

[suspiciousH]

I would recommend taking a break from LS for a while if you don't find anything.

 

Excellent counsel -- thanks!

[Mrs. John Adams]

Thanks, Wmacbride. I've had several chats with her about my worries including a very serious discussion after I discovered the FB chat three years ago. But I've never asked her if she was cheating or if I have full access to truly everything because I feel that those questions are over-the-top, and probably inflammatory, given my observations thus far.

 

As you can read from the comments in this thread I've received many different opinions about whether or not I should spy and how long I should do so. At this point I've decided two months is reasonable. If I find nothing then I hope that I'm adult enough to let things go.

 

I am still trying to understand what happened and why this has all become an issue for you.

 

The facebook messages were three years ago...you talked about it....and nothing has surfaced in the last three years for you to be an investigator.

 

You say there have been no changes...no physical changes...no fights or disagreements...nothing to cause you to now three years later decide to spend all this money and time to spy on her.

 

Try as i might...I cannot wrap my head around this....now granted...it doesn't matter what i think...but if i am having trouble understanding there are others who are also having a hard time understanding.

[suspiciousH]

I am still trying to understand what happened and why this has all become an issue for you.

 

The facebook messages were three years ago...you talked about it....and nothing has surfaced in the last three years for you to be an investigator.

 

You say there have been no changes...no physical changes...no fights or disagreements...nothing to cause you to now three years later decide to spend all this money and time to spy on her.

 

Try as i might...I cannot wrap my head around this....now granted...it doesn't matter what i think...but if i am having trouble understanding there are others who are also having a hard time understanding.

 

As I've stated several times in this thread my gut started sounding off in August. I had previously picked up on a change in her (e.g., flirting I don't remember observing before). Then the discovery of unusual summer '16 text frequency three weeks ago. Is it so unusual to have little evidence when the gut feeling arrives? Not from what I read on LS.

[suspiciousH]

Anyway, it's probably best for me to take Zona's advice and go dark on LS unless I find something. If I do I'll be back for more counsel. If not then you can all take a sigh of relief that a kook of a husband got it all wrong and has learned his lesson.

[mikeylo]

So I've read this entire thread just now. A couple of things...

 

First, the conversation about flirting and cheating: My experience is that they are inextricably linked within ONE category. It's simple: Flirting leads to cheating. And believing her when she says that she's not "aware of the signals" and the "occurrences were unintentional" is a mistake IMO.

 

Flirting is a thrill. There's the chase and conquest, tease and response, innuendo and acknowledgement, all creating sexual tension. If circumstances allow enough contact, the back-and-forth repartee and oblique, suggestive double entendres build electricity until one day those friendly, brief touches get sexual and go further, deeper, longer.

 

In my husband's case, he had no clear boundary where flirting stopped and lumped petting in with flirting because that's how it started. But any innocence they feign about what's right and wrong about these behaviors is just that - a feint that barely fools the listener, much less the teller.

 

Like suspiciousH, I used to have conversations with my husband about interactions I'd observed that made me uncomfortable. Similarly, he'd express lack of awareness or intention. I can't say I bought it entirely, but I couldn't imagine or swallow the possibility that it was anything other than innocent. Therefore, like sH, I lectured him on 'how it looks.' Well, now he's admitted to five affairs, both emotional and physical, that ALL started with flirting. I now know that he didn't know any other way to interact with women and blamed them. Messed up - I know.

 

I'm just telling you this, sH, to get you to start thinking about the fact that she may be playing you, too. I don't give my husband one iota of margin for this kind of bullshyte any more and he knows it. He wouldn't dare. The closest he's come was with a recent client, whose texts I came across and noticed were a shade too personal. Called him on it, got denial but not really. It was denial in words, but we both knew I was right.

 

And that leads to the other point I want to make about the way you all have been talking about flirting. This dissected argument about hair twisting is a silly but dangerous red herring. Obviously, most of us are inexperienced flirters - compared to these examples, but, good grief, everybody flirts differently. The point is that on some level there's a biological and psychological response to each other's body language and verbal responses, which has unmistakable sexual overtones. You're going to miss the real thing if you limit it to the short list of hair-twisting, arm touches and whatever else you've been debating. There's the 'look,' joking, the voice inflection, smile, laugh, sitting position, and so on that some people master at a very young age, but most don't make YouTube videos about it or even discuss it.

 

Very well put to my short , flirting is cheating.

 

Flirting has an agenda. The only person I ever flirted was the woman I was dating, at any given point. Once I committed to my wife , I never flirted with anyone. Honestly , there was no time or energy left as I put those in her. I flirted with her.

If you are flirting with another person then you are making them laugh , ego boost , thrill , touching , and before you know it , flirting with this person becomes more exciting than own partner. Your partner will complain but your other person will never complain and there you go to the other person over and over again !

 

I've always believed that flirting is cheating.

[Mrs. John Adams]

As I've stated several times in this thread my gut started sounding off in August. I had previously picked up on a change in her (e.g., flirting I don't remember observing before). Then the discovery of unusual summer '16 text frequency three weeks ago. Is it so unusual to have little evidence when the gut feeling arrives? Not from what I read on LS.

 

So this is really all about those extra texts that one month? Did you contact the phone company and simply ask for a copy of the texts? Is that possible to do? Can you at least could get the phone number the texts went to?

 

Are you open to the fact that this could be you and not her? I mean... sometimes its our perception rather than fact.

 

You seem to have a great marriage...I cant understand why you cannot just talk about it and ask her? I know the fellas want you to investigate first and ask later...but it seems like you have great communication skills and are a very good husband.

[suspiciousH]

So this is really all about those extra texts that one month? Did you contact the phone company and simply ask for a copy of the texts? Is that possible to do? Can you at least could get the phone number the texts went to?

 

Are you open to the fact that this could be you and not her? I mean... sometimes its our perception rather than fact.

 

You seem to have a great marriage...I cant understand why you cannot just talk about it and ask her? I know the fellas want you to investigate first and ask later...but it seems like you have great communication skills and are a very good husband.

 

MJA -- Please re-read the thread. Asked and answered. Could it be me? Sure.

 

I'm going dark now because this is becoming tiresome.

[Mrs. John Adams]

MJA -- Please re-read the thread. Asked and answered. Could it be me? Sure.

 

I'm going dark now because this is becoming tiresome.

 

I understand...i get it...you have a great day.

[Bastile]

You're right that life doesn't always (often) resolve to the binary. But one basic rule we can all use to guide our choices is, "Are my choices damaging, or likely to damage, someone else?" In the case of seducing an attached woman you are damaging her SO if not the woman herself. More so if she's married.

 

If a business partner of my company breaches it's agreement I'm likely to sue the partner if we can't come to terms in a arbitration of some sort. Marriage is a contract, albeit one that has lost its remedies clause, perhaps owing to the fact that it's breached so often and governments don't want to crowd their courtrooms with contract cases brought by a sea of wronged spouses. But that doesn't mean that we as individuals should behave any way we want just because the potential penalties for ourselves are de minimis.

 

More broadly, it could be argued that Victorian morality was simply a reaction to the personal excesses of a prior era. Yes, an over-correction, but still a response to the societal consequences of social mores in the Middle and Renaissance Ages. 150 years ago and before it was perfectly acceptable to kill a man in a duel for bedding your wife if you had the skill and inclination to a take a life. I wonder if the collective excesses of our age will bequest to our grandchildren and great-grandchildren a similar fate.

 

Which completely ignores the dual mating strategy that women have for the lover/provider.

 

If I were to never have romantic relations with a woman for fear of harming some other man, I would never speak to another woman in my life.

 

I've been cheated on before too. I think to blame some random guy, rather than your Mrs is risible. These men have no responsibility to you. And expecting them to, based on some sort of white-knight moral code - as if we are all knights of the round table - is not living in the real world.

 

 

In my opinion ( and this could be way off) I would start off by sitting down with her and having a very serious discussion.

 

The problem with this idea is that he found her having prolonged Facebook chats with an orbiter (would be suitor), only for her to gaslight and use the age old excuse of "friends".

 

That makes an honest and direct discussion on the issue very difficult.

[wmacbride]

Thanks, Wmacbride. I've had several chats with her about my worries including a very serious discussion after I discovered the FB chat three years ago. But I've never asked her if she was cheating or if I have full access to truly everything because I feel that those questions are over-the-top, and probably inflammatory, given my observations thus far.

 

As you can read from the comments in this thread I've received many different opinions about whether or not I should spy and how long I should do so. At this point I've decided two months is reasonable. If I find nothing then I hope that I'm adult enough to let things go.

 

What you say makes sense.

 

The only response I have is this ( and it may not apply to your wife, so take it with a grain of salt, as everyone is different)

 

Reverse the roles.

 

If your wife came to you and told she was concerned, and laid out the reasons why, would you be angry with her, or would you be open to discussion her worries?

 

Again, I don't know if she was cheating or not. What matters to me is you have concerns, and a loving marriage should be able to address these. I'm not talking about accusing her, but if you have worries, they need to be addressed so they won't grow. From what you say, you've noticed some changes in her behavior, and even if she isn't cheating, it's still good to talk about it with her. It could even just be that she is going through a "mid life crisis" ( so to speak) and it's affected her behavior in ways she might not even realize. Talking with her can help her to open up and keep the two of you well connected.

 

It not only gives her a chance to know your fears and help you work through them, it can help her by encouraging her to keep the lines of communication with you wide open.

 

bet of luck. you sound like a husband who cares a lot for his wife:)

[wmacbride]

Which completely ignores the dual mating strategy that women have for the lover/provider.

 

If I were to never have romantic relations with a woman for fear of harming some other man, I would never speak to another woman in my life.

 

I've been cheated on before too. I think to blame some random guy, rather than your Mrs is risible. These men have no responsibility to you. And expecting them to, based on some sort of white-knight moral code - as if we are all knights of the round table - is not living in the real world.

 

 

 

 

The problem with this idea is that he found her having prolonged Facebook chats with an orbiter (would be suitor), only for her to gaslight and use the age old excuse of "friends".

 

That makes an honest and direct discussion on the issue very difficult.

 

I see what you mean, and it makes a lot of sense. I'd just hate to see him become obsessive and stuck on a merry go round he can't get off of.

 

Of course if she is cheating, he's already stuck.

 

Infidelity, ain't it grand? pfffftttttttt

[wmacbride]

Anyway, it's probably best for me to take Zona's advice and go dark on LS unless I find something. If I do I'll be back for more counsel. If not then you can all take a sigh of relief that a kook of a husband got it all wrong and has learned his lesson.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself. You had a problem, and you took advantage of a resource you thought might help ( LS) .

 

you could have done a lot worse, and you've been able to keep a level head.

 

I hope everything works out well for you, and you and your wife can find your way through whatever all of this was. Like I said in a previous post, you sound like a husband who really loves his wife and is hurting. I really hope your concerns turned out to be for nothing, but if it turns out she was cheating, you have a board here full of people who can be a sounding board.

 

Whatever happens, best of luck to you.

 

( sorry for the atrocious grammar, word choice and spelling...4:20 was a bit early today )

Edited July 2, 2017 by wmacbride

[zombiehead]

Have you looked through her email? Does she have yahoo or gmail? If she has opened any secret messaging apps like skype kik ect ect there will be a confirmation email sent to activate the account. Look through her email. You can go to yahoo and gmail and put in a phone number instead of a email address in the log in and it will tell you if there is an email account associated with that phone number. That is.how I found my wife's secret yahoo email which I found all kinds of horror like jackoff videos from her affair partners.

[suspiciousH]

Have you been able to see what's she's doing since setting up all of your resources?

 

Nothing new on GPS, VAR, ActivTrak. Shipping/installation of FoneLab, broadband receiver, and video were again delayed and won't be up until this weekend.

 

Zona's advice RE taking a break from LS was excellent. I spent zero time on LS this week -- it helped a lot. No question that one's reading and ruminating about the stories detailed here can goose confirmation bias. I noticed the first day I decided not to visit LS that I felt a moderately-strong pull toward the site. But I resisted and have found that the less time I spend on LS the less powerful the pull is. I'm not saying that LS is not valuable -- it very much is. But it must be taken in moderation for a person in my situation and with my temperament. So don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a week or two.

[standtall]

Nothing new on GPS, VAR, ActivTrak. Shipping/installation of FoneLab, broadband receiver, and video were again delayed and won't be up until this weekend.

 

Zona's advice RE taking a break from LS was excellent. I spent zero time on LS this week -- it helped a lot. No question that one's reading and ruminating about the stories detailed here can goose confirmation bias. I noticed the first day I decided not to visit LS that I felt a moderately-strong pull toward the site. But I resisted and have found that the less time I spend on LS the less powerful the pull is. I'm not saying that LS is not valuable -- it very much is. But it must be taken in moderation for a person in my situation and with my temperament. So don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a week or two.

 

Ya gotta watch some posters here...they love to sit on the sidelines for the slow motion car wrecks and give them a little push when it appears there will be no crash. Some people will set the world on fire just to watch it burn.

[lostgirl87]

Nothing new on GPS, VAR, ActivTrak. Shipping/installation of FoneLab, broadband receiver, and video were again delayed and won't be up until this weekend.

 

Zona's advice RE taking a break from LS was excellent. I spent zero time on LS this week -- it helped a lot. No question that one's reading and ruminating about the stories detailed here can goose confirmation bias. I noticed the first day I decided not to visit LS that I felt a moderately-strong pull toward the site. But I resisted and have found that the less time I spend on LS the less powerful the pull is. I'm not saying that LS is not valuable -- it very much is. But it must be taken in moderation for a person in my situation and with my temperament. So don't be surprised if you don't hear from me for a week or two.

Man. I honestly feel bad for your wife. Not gonna lie- it doesn't sound like she's cheating. Even from your early posts I never got the feeling or impression that she was cheating. It honestly just sounds like you're a bit insecure and I promise I don't mean that in an offensive way. Maybe there's something else going on either with you, with her or the marriage that you're not seeing and you're just going with "she's cheating".

 

I think all this spying on your wife is wrong and it doesn't sound like she deserves this. Maybe you should put the prying and spying to a rest. If your wife finds out what you're doing and she's innocent (as I suspect she is), she's going to be extremely upset and rightfully so. You may not be able to recover from that. The level of snooping you're doing is unreal. All b/c of some old Facebook chat and "flirty" behavior? Just doesn't seem like enough to do all of this to your wife.

 

Again, I don't mean to offend you. I just feel that you really need to think about what you're doing and stop all of this before it blows up. It's almost as if you want to find something and won't stop until you do. The problem is that if she's not cheating, you'll never find anything so how far are you going to go?! If she were cheating, you would have something by now. Please try and let it go and talk to your wife! See what's going onwith her. Make sure you 2 are on the same page with regards to the marriage. Whatever is going on, I really don't think it's an affair.

 

Good luck!