Still in love with [OW]

[lostgirl87]

for the same reasons he is.

If you read the rest of the post you'll see I blame both for still being there when they clearly aren't happy :)

[knabe]

I would say file for separation. And tell your wife exactly why. That you have been punished for 5 years and you are done.

 

Give yourself some time to get your bearings.

 

Then reach out to the OW IF you are ready to be all in.

 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But separate and move on FIRST. IF you truly have faith, you'll feel a lot better about yourself if you do it right.

[BTDT2012]

I would say file for separation. And tell your wife exactly why. That you have been punished for 5 years and you are done.

 

Give yourself some time to get your bearings.

 

Then reach out to the OW IF you are ready to be all in.

 

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But separate and move on FIRST. IF you truly have faith, you'll feel a lot better about yourself if you do it right.

 

Excellent advice.

[BTDT2012]

You have not lived in my house to know, or read the 4 journal books of 200+ pages to know my empathy, heart, regret, repentance, my pain and tears soaked pages of my Bible which I have read thru 4.5 times in 5 years.....my frustration here is that without any knowledge most people here coming down on me. Of course I am defensive. Would you not be?

 

I have empathy for her, but five years of letting her use that excuse is wearing thin. Five years at this point even the best therapist I know and still see is enough time to move forward. At this point I am enabling her stuckness (I know its not a word) by allowing her to control every issue 'in light of the fact I cheated'.

 

Why is every assuming I have not done anything or walked in her shoes or cared for her?

 

My frustration here toward the attitude to me combined with the unforgiveness has gotten my anger up. You want to ask what I have done...ask I will answer. But stop judging me

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never assumed that you had done nothing. The tone of your postings does indicate that you resent doing the things that you have done. Allowing your wife to control every issue is your choice, and you have responsibility for that choice.

 

You might want to ask yourself why the opinions of strangers on the internet (who have only been given part of the story) have so easily brought you to a place of anger.

 

I certainly hope you will be able to get to a place of peace.

[Popsicle]

Totally agree and I suspect that is what is at play here (although only Ray can really answer that). But IME it's dangerous to look to others to "take you to a happier place"... It's up to Ray - not his W, his OW, or anyone else - to define and carve out that happiness for himself, no? It's always been that way for me. But I've never been in a long-term M, so that rule may not apply there, I don't know? Can a person be responsible for their own happiness when everything is so intertwined with their spouse?

 

Sure but being married to someone who's not nice can certainly take your happiness away and make your life miserable. It's similar to having a horrible boss but even more intimate. It's a daily struggle.

[cocorico]

Life is horribly empty, dreadful and the thing is she thinks its normal.

 

Leave your M.

 

Your BW has clearly made peace with a space that is damaging to you (and probably to herself, too, though she continues to author that and so at some level considers it to be beneficial).

 

It is also not healthy for your kids. I grew up in a house like that and it was deeply damaging on many levels. You are not doing anyone any favours, least of all yourself.

 

I suspect Pops is correct in that what your OW represents to you, rather than your OW herself, is what you continue to "love" / hanker after. After five years of NC, you no longer know her - assuming you did during the A - as she has had five years of life, experiences, changes, etc you know nothing about. You may love some idealised "essence" of her, some memory of her, but you would need to reacquaint yourself with her to see if you do still love her. This you will only know if you dump your spent M and go after her - however strong your love is for what you continue to associate with her.

 

Unlike others, I'm not going to accuse you of not being committed to R for those five long years. You've done it by the book, as far as I can tell. I've been here a while, and there's nothing I've seen that any BS has listed on any thread of "what the BS needs the WS to do" that is glaringly absent from your description. So I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt that you really have tried. But sometimes R just doesn't work. Sometimes, however hard the WS tries, and however hard the BS tries to forgive, it's just too big a deal. And it looks like that's the case here. So, you can continue to flog a dead horse, or you can move on.

 

In the interests of disclosure, I'm a fOW now happily M to my fMM. I'm not in favour of remaining in toxic Rs of any kind, for anyone. My parents stayed together "for the kids" and got D as soon as the youngest moved out. We never forgave them for stealing our childhoods like that, or for setting us up for a string of failed Rs between us, built on the faulty dynamics we learned from them. It's taken me many years to get past that, to learn healthy ways of being and relating, and I would really rather you spared your own kids that. Life's too short to spend most of it on a therapist's couch.

[elaine567]

Sure but being married to someone who's not nice can certainly take your happiness away and make your life miserable. It's similar to having a horrible boss but even more intimate. It's a daily struggle.

 

There is a big difference though, between my wife/husband is being a horrible person because they were born that way or due to FOO issues or abuse or some terrible circumstance from their past, etc. "

AND "My wife/husband is being a horrible person, because what I did, made them that way.

 

There can be a distancing in the first instance,"It is not my fault, I can walk away guilt free. I am not put on this earth to solve their problems..."

In the second instance not so easy "It IS my fault, I feel I need to make amends, I am responsible for making them into someone they would never have been had I not done them wrong..."

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

btw, op, here is a link you might like to take a look at. it might explain some of the disconnect between where your wife is emotionally and where you think she should be.

 

https://www.aamft.org/iMIS15/AAMFT/Content/consumer_updates/infidelity.aspx

 

I looked for one with professional credentials and not just "fluff" ( you sound like a person who appreciates sources)

 

One of the things it noted is that, for a reconciliation to be a success, there has to be no contact between the former affair partners, and if they have to be around each other because of work, the contact should be strictly professional.

 

You may have cut off physical and verbal contact with your ow, but mentally, you aren't there. Mentally, you are still with her, and your heart belongs to her. There is a huge difference between having fond memories and maybe an occasional wistful thought about "the other",, but that is not even in the same city as you saying you are still in love with your ow.

 

Have you ever actually sat down with your wife and told her how you feel about your ow? Sort of laid it all out, bare bones and all so she could at least know where she stands and what she is up against, or have you swallowed that and expressed it in other ways?

 

I just find it so odd that the same guy who is harping on his wife for not reconciling and healing according to his timetable and checklist is the same guy who wrote the first post you did. Those don't even go together. it would be very different if you said you loved her and couldn't understand why she wasn't responding, but instead, you still love another woman and wonder why your wife isn't acting loving towards you. Do you see how those two statements don't gel? Why are YOU not holding yourself to the same standard? Why are YOU not on here asking how you can get over the ow and find love again with your bs. Why is she the only one who should have to move forward?

 

You don't sound like a bad guy, but you do sound like a guy who is really confused and running from yourself because it doesn't jive with who you want to be. Give yourself, and your wife, a break here. Sit her down and have a no holds barred talk with her about how you feel, what you need from her and that you still have these strong feelings for your ow. Ask her if she wants to stay with a man who doesn't really care that much for her and is only staying because of ????????? ( why exactly are you staying anyway?)

 

I have not read further down than this so I am can't address other questions yet, but read my post on page 2 of this thread. I am not pining for the OW. My OP was a quick question in a forum and community I knew nothing about. Had I known I was going to be attacked for every little nuance of what I said I would have detailed things clearer. Instead I thought this was a forum that might be more graceful to my past circumstances. the fact that is is now 7 pages and going and I am still beaten up for an assumed position that I have done anything for my marriage and spouse "in my heart" then I am still a cheater. Nothing could be further from the truth. Again read my posts. I am not pining for the OW.

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

You haven't done everything to reconcile. You can't reconcile while your mind is elsewhere. It doesn't work. You can read all the books in the world, sit on every therapist' s couch, pray, etc.... But if you are constantly thinking about the ow, then reconciliation cannot happen. Your wife will feel it. Trust me, she feels it. Maybe you are thinking about the ow due to your wife's harshness. Maybe she is being harsh due to feeling your distance and longing for OW. What came first? The chicken or the egg? Does it matter?

 

You are not NC with the ow. You may not speak to her nor see her, but you are checking up on her. That is still contact. #1 rule of reconciling... strict NC.

 

No one can tell you if it is true love. I don't think anyone can have that answer to a relationship that was only conducted as an affair. Too much mud in the water to say either way.

 

 

Please read ALL my posts. There has been no contact and I do not check on her. I dont do social media at all...NEVER have, never will.

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

Was the OW single or married?

Divorced, single for 15 yrs

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

I appreciate you sticking up for yourself, Ray. BS's tend to be, as you put it, vain. If a WS wasn't getting their needs met by their spouse before the affair, they for damn sure aren't going to get their needs met after the discovery of an affair. Sanctimoniousness rules the day from here on out and as a WS you either cowtow to that or say goodbye.

 

Anyways, to answer your question. I DO think married people who stay in an unhappy marriage after an affair have a more difficult time forgetting about their former lover. This is because they have no good feelings currently to hold onto coming from their marriage. So the thoughts linger about their former lover, they daydream about them, in especially bad times, they hold onto the good memories and hopefulness about their OW/OM. It's one reason why some people become serial cheaters - to get that feeling again. Imagine if you were in a prison in a foreign place and you had to sit in that dark dank dirty cell day after day. What would you think about to help you get through the days? You might think about the things that made you happy when you were free, things you can't do now, good feelings you had, feelings you don't feel now, or you might think about the good things you hope to do when you get out of the prison. Anything to not be consumed by the sadness, depression, anger and hopelessness that you could so easily drown in due to the grim circumstances. I think many married people feel like they are trapped and absolutely can't get out. If you feel this way, I honestly don't see how in 1 year when your kid leaves you will be able to leave your marriage then either. I'm sure it goes deeper than just having minor kids at home. I do wish you luck though. I hope you find a slice of happiness somehow.

 

As for the OW, she is just an image, a representation of happiness. Something better than what you have now. It really could be another woman, any woman, as long as she helps take you to a happier place than the woman you are with now, your wife, does.

 

 

Thank you for your insight. This helps. I do think you understood my position

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

Leave your M.

 

Your BW has clearly made peace with a space that is damaging to you (and probably to herself, too, though she continues to author that and so at some level considers it to be beneficial).

 

It is also not healthy for your kids. I grew up in a house like that and it was deeply damaging on many levels. You are not doing anyone any favours, least of all yourself.

 

I suspect Pops is correct in that what your OW represents to you, rather than your OW herself, is what you continue to "love" / hanker after. After five years of NC, you no longer know her - assuming you did during the A - as she has had five years of life, experiences, changes, etc you know nothing about. You may love some idealised "essence" of her, some memory of her, but you would need to reacquaint yourself with her to see if you do still love her. This you will only know if you dump your spent M and go after her - however strong your love is for what you continue to associate with her.

 

Unlike others, I'm not going to accuse you of not being committed to R for those five long years. You've done it by the book, as far as I can tell. I've been here a while, and there's nothing I've seen that any BS has listed on any thread of "what the BS needs the WS to do" that is glaringly absent from your description. So I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt that you really have tried. But sometimes R just doesn't work. Sometimes, however hard the WS tries, and however hard the BS tries to forgive, it's just too big a deal. And it looks like that's the case here. So, you can continue to flog a dead horse, or you can move on.

 

In the interests of disclosure, I'm a fOW now happily M to my fMM. I'm not in favour of remaining in toxic Rs of any kind, for anyone. My parents stayed together "for the kids" and got D as soon as the youngest moved out. We never forgave them for stealing our childhoods like that, or for setting us up for a string of failed Rs between us, built on the faulty dynamics we learned from them. It's taken me many years to get past that, to learn healthy ways of being and relating, and I would really rather you spared your own kids that. Life's too short to spend most of it on a therapist's couch.

 

 

thank you. I like the last line a lot!

[Birdies]

You haven't really answered anyone's questions about why you "can't" get divorced. Is it explicitly against your religious beliefs? Do you think you will be punished eternally for it, and so a lifetime of misery pales in comparison? Or is more that you "shouldn't" do it and fear your reputation will be tarneished (especially if your affair comes to light)?

 

If it's the first, well it is what it is. I can't fathom believing in a higher power that would punish people this way, but I know some do.

 

If it's the second, then yes, the blow to your reputation and sense of self is significant. I went through this experience (although without the religious connotations) and it was very humbling. To go from being seen as a great person, caring and loving and great wife and friend, to be a filthy cruel cheater who destroyed her husband's life - well, that does suck. A lot. I've been consciously working on a Buddhist approach to it all: "Let go of any desire about the outcome or other people's perceptions...it's out of my control and thus I need to release all desire for a particular outcome."

 

But here's the thing, I am happier not living a lie and not living in a stressful and often unhappy marriage. My ex-husband is happier too - our marital problems were not unfelt by him either, and he is now free to find someone who loves him unconditionally. (It seems like he has found that person, which makes me very very happy.) Once you get past the sheer horror of disentangling your life from a partner of decades....it's incredibly freeing to just be yourself again. I very much admire the people like Jenkins who have reconciled successfully, but sometimes, it becomes a sunk cost fallacy. You already spent 5 years trying - does that time "wasted" justify spending 20, 30, 40 more years? Not to me.

 

Edit: and to answer your question. I agree with others that it is most likely that your love for OW is an idealization of something that seems like perfect love when compared to the difficult and painful marital experience you and your wife have had. I would bet that the reality of a relationship with your OW would be vastly different than your idealization of it. The problem is, affairs create this mutual sense of "they are my soulmate, no one has ever understood me like this or been this sexually amazing!" Discerning that false proxy of love, versus actual love, is really hard. But, of course sometimes it IS love. I'm in a relationship with my former OM/MM and it is exactly as I thought it would be and we are still very much in love. But more often than not, the glimpse you see of the AP is far enough from the whole picture that it can't be actual love.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Birdies

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

What has he actually DONE, besides doing some reading and seeing a therapist/pastor?

 

What has he done for his wife? He could have done tons, he could have done nothing. We don't know.

 

How is his wife actually punishing him for the A? What is she doing? Is it a case of her triggering and being upset when she sees something that reminds him of the A ( which happens a lot) or is she nagging at him all the time? Does she get sad when she hears a song about cheating on the radio, or is she getting sad every time she opens the fridge to get a glass of milk?

 

Many bs still grieve years after the A. Some don't. It depends on the person. If the op hasn't been honest with his wife and told her the extent of his feelings, she is flying blind. Quite frankly, I doubt there's anythings he could be doing right now that would help the situation. By his own words, he only broke up with the ow because he was afraid of getting caught.

 

" It was ugly, the breakup, basically she threatened to tell the wife and I beat her to it. hell broke loose on many levels. I broke it off with her that day and have not spoken to her since...."

 

Does his wife know this, or did he lie to her and pretend he was coming clean out of a sense of honesty? During the counseling sessions they went to, was he honest there, or is he lying and saying he loves her and is gaslighting her?

 

Op, you probably hate me, as I have given you a hard time. I am sorry for that, but you and your wife both sound really unhappy, and I don't see why you stay together. faith seems to be a large part of it, but if god loves you, why would he want you both to be so miserable? That doesn't make any sense. If he could forgive you cheating, then surely, he could forgive a divorce if both the husband and wife are fundamentally miserable and there is no relief in sight.

 

What did I do? Lets just say I have seen 3 therapist for 5 years, a week long marriage intensive, meet with the paster every other week for 5 years...they all say everything I have done is far more than most men do in trying to repair/restore their marriage. In fact, both the Pastor and therapist said, most good men would have left after year 3. What have I done. I left my job, left my career, left my dream, changed phone numbers, had zero contact, had a GPS tracker app on my phone for her to track my every movement. keystroke logger on my computer which emailed her what I did, called and texted her every destination I was at (first 3 months I even sent a picture of where I was), gave her a rundown of every location I was at to be accountable. I met with therapist for years. I pursued her. Loved her, took every insult, anger burst, cuss words and said I Love you. Wrote her hundreds of letters, emails, sticky notes, insisted we see marriage counselor (went through 3 of those), insisted we talk and communicate (she hates doing that).....Cooked for her, went over the top in birthdays, anniversaries, etc....bought her a diamond ring that costs thousands. Insisted and dragged her to church every Sunday, Read dozens of books, videos, read through the Bible over 4 times. (and yes Psalms 51 is the most marked up, cried over, prayed over and it opens automatically there). I prayed over her, with her, bared the agony of confessing to her parents because she insisted they know...I guess to shame me...what ever she asked I did....I begged her forgiveness, said I am sorry a hundred million times....tried to hold her (she has never been affectionate and prefers to withdraw and be alone).....all the while, her only response to if she loved me was "I'm here aren't I". I initiate 100% of all physical contact and mentioning any terms of endearment. She will not say I love you first. It always has to be prompted. .....

 

How is that list? Do I need to add more?

Edited June 30, 2017 by Ray1201

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

You haven't really answered anyone's questions about why you "can't" get divorced. Is it explicitly against your religious beliefs? Do you think you will be punished eternally for it, and so a lifetime of misery pales in comparison? Or is more that you "shouldn't" do it and fear your reputation will be tarneished (especially if your affair comes to light)?

 

If it's the first, well it is what it is. I can't fathom believing in a higher power that would punish people this way, but I know some do.

 

If it's the second, then yes, the blow to your reputation and sense of self is significant. I went through this experience (although without the religious connotations) and it was very humbling. To go from being seen as a great person, caring and loving and great wife and friend, to be a filthy cruel cheater who destroyed her husband's life - well, that does suck. A lot. I've been consciously working on a Buddhist approach to it all: "Let go of any desire about the outcome or other people's perceptions...it's out of my control and thus I need to release all desire for a particular outcome."

 

But here's the thing, I am happier not living a lie and not living in a stressful and often unhappy marriage. My ex-husband is happier too - our marital problems were not unfelt by him either, and he is now free to find someone who loves him unconditionally. (It seems like he has found that person, which makes me very very happy.) Once you get past the sheer horror of disentangling your life from a partner of decades....it's incredibly freeing to just be yourself again. I very much admire the people like Jenkins who have reconciled successfully, but sometimes, it becomes a sunk cost fallacy. You already spent 5 years trying - does that time "wasted" justify spending 20, 30, 40 more years? Not to me.

 

Edit: and to answer your question. I agree with others that it is most likely that your love for OW is an idealization of something that seems like perfect love when compared to the difficult and painful marital experience you and your wife have had. I would bet that the reality of a relationship with your OW would be vastly different than your idealization of it. The problem is, affairs create this mutual sense of "they are my soulmate, no one has ever understood me like this or been this sexually amazing!" Discerning that false proxy of love, versus actual love, is really hard. But, of course sometimes it IS love. I'm in a relationship with my former OM/MM and it is exactly as I thought it would be and we are still very much in love. But more often than not, the glimpse you see of the AP is far enough from the whole picture that it can't be actual love.

 

It is religious reasons mostly and other reasons which I will address later.

 

Our closest friends, parents on both sides know.....kids do not.

[wmacbride]

What did I do? Lets just say I have seen 3 therapist for 5 years, a week long marriage intensive, meet with the paster every other week for 5 years...they all say everything I have done is far more than most men do in trying to repair/restore their marriage. In fact, both the Pastor and therapist said, most good men would have left after year 3. What have I done. I left my job, left my career, left my dream, changed phone numbers, had zero contact, had a GPS tracker app on my phone for her to track my every movement. keystroke logger on my computer which emailed her what I did, called and texted her every destination I was at (first 3 months I even sent a picture of where I was), gave her a rundown of every location I was at to be accountable. I met with therapist for years. I pursued her. Loved her, took every insult, anger burst, cuss words and said I Love you. Wrote her hundreds of letters, emails, sticky notes, insisted we see marriage counselor (went through 3 of those), insisted we talk and communicate (she hates doing that).....Cooked for her, went over the top in birthdays, anniversaries, etc....bought her a diamond ring that costs thousands. Insisted and dragged her to church every Sunday, Read dozens of books, videos, read through the Bible over 4 times. (and yes Psalms 51 is the most marked up, cried over, prayed over and it opens automatically there). I prayed over her, with her, bared the agony of confessing to her parents because she insisted they know...I guess to shame me...what ever she asked I did....I begged her forgiveness, said I am sorry a hundred million times....tried to hold her (she has never been affectionate and prefers to withdraw and be alone).....all the while, her only response to if she loved me was "I'm here aren't I". I initiate 100% of all physical contact and mentioning any terms of endearment. She will not say I love you first. It always has to be prompted. .....

 

How is that list? Do I need to add more?

 

Yes you do.

 

I know you don't like hearing this, but NONE of that was enough because you were still holding a torch for your ow, and you even say this yourself. It was playing enough on your mind that felt the need to see it gel as a question and ask it on an internet forum.

 

You have not approached it with an open heart. When you say you love her, that is not true. If she isn't interested is physical intimacy, do you know why that is? As many bs will tell you, it's because she is likley picturing you and your ow being intimate together- this is so common, there is even a jargon term for it- mind movies. Would you want to be intimate with her if every time you went to hold her, an image of her having sex with another man popped into your head? How would that make you feel?

 

If I was the bs in your situation, I would have walked a long time ago. If you were in her shoes, and it was her who had written your opening post about the man she had been sleeping with, what would you think? Really give that some consideration.

 

This is what I don't think you are understanding. You can do all of the things you did, but if your heart is still tied to your ex-ow, none of it is going to matter. You can say sorry, I love you, read books, the bible, spend money, but that's all just putting lipstick on a pig ( not that you are a pig, it's just the situation that stinks). Underneath all of that, your heart is not pure.

 

When you told her you loved her, did your mind flash back, even for a second, to your ow? Since the A, have you been mentally comparing the two? If you say something and your wife doesn't agree, do you think " my ow would understand that"?

 

How do you think your wife felt when she found out you only ended the A and told her about it because you were afraid your ow would beat you to it? Does she know this?

 

Have you asked her why she chose to stay with you? Does she know it's not working for you ( have you told her this?)? If so, what did she say? Show her your opening post and let her see how little you actually care about her.( I know that makes you sound bad, but it's the reality).

 

When you met with pastors and therapists, did you tell them how often your mind drifts to the ow? What wold they have to say about your opening post? Do they know this question was in your mind?

 

Again, I am not trying to give you a hard time. I'm seeing a guy who is miserable, and not seeing that there are steps he can take to fix it. You can either face up to your situation or leave. Really, unless both you and your wife can find some way of empathizing with each other ( and not just lip service) going your separate ways may well be for the best.

 

summary...it's not the words from your mouth but what's in your heart that counts....can you honestly say that you have approached reconciliation form a perspective that has room in your heart for your wife only? I know in the early days that would probably be hard, but this was written by you five years out "Not a day goes by where I don't think of the OW. Almost 5 years later, she is in my heart still.". You wrote this after all that therapy, bible reading, book reading, etc.

This, right here ( your words) is why there is nothing your wife could have done to reconcile your marriage.Again, reverse the roles. If it was your wife saying this five years after she was forced to end her A, what would you think?

 

It's not about making you feel guilty or saying you are a bad guy. I don't think you are a bad guy. I think you have also been really hurt by all of this, but nothing you say your wife needed form you was abnormal. In fact, many bs are advised to go even further ( voice activated recorders, lie detectors, post nuptial agreements, being told their ws is a (expletive deleted) etc.). Just read some of the threads on here for more details.

[Starswillshine]

What did I do? Lets just say I have seen 3 therapist for 5 years, a week long marriage intensive, meet with the paster every other week for 5 years...they all say everything I have done is far more than most men do in trying to repair/restore their marriage. In fact, both the Pastor and therapist said, most good men would have left after year 3. What have I done. I left my job, left my career, left my dream, changed phone numbers, had zero contact, had a GPS tracker app on my phone for her to track my every movement. keystroke logger on my computer which emailed her what I did, called and texted her every destination I was at (first 3 months I even sent a picture of where I was), gave her a rundown of every location I was at to be accountable. I met with therapist for years. I pursued her. Loved her, took every insult, anger burst, cuss words and said I Love you. Wrote her hundreds of letters, emails, sticky notes, insisted we see marriage counselor (went through 3 of those), insisted we talk and communicate (she hates doing that).....Cooked for her, went over the top in birthdays, anniversaries, etc....bought her a diamond ring that costs thousands. Insisted and dragged her to church every Sunday, Read dozens of books, videos, read through the Bible over 4 times. (and yes Psalms 51 is the most marked up, cried over, prayed over and it opens automatically there). I prayed over her, with her, bared the agony of confessing to her parents because she insisted they know...I guess to shame me...what ever she asked I did....I begged her forgiveness, said I am sorry a hundred million times....tried to hold her (she has never been affectionate and prefers to withdraw and be alone).....all the while, her only response to if she loved me was "I'm here aren't I". I initiate 100% of all physical contact and mentioning any terms of endearment. She will not say I love you first. It always has to be prompted. .....

 

How is that list? Do I need to add more?

 

Yes. Stop fantasizing about your OW. Stop checking up on your OW. None of what you did matter when you are still doing both

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

Yes you do.

 

I know you don't like hearing this, but NONE of that was enough because you were still holding a torch for your ow, and you even say this yourself. It was playing enough on your mind that felt the need to see it gel as a question and ask it on an internet forum.

 

You have not approached it with an open heart. When you say you love her, that is not true. If she isn't interested is physical intimacy, do you know why that is? As many bs will tell you, it's because she is likley picturing you and your ow being intimate together- this is so common, there is even a jargon term for it- mind movies. Would you want to be intimate with her if every time you went to hold her, an image of her having sex with another man popped into your head? How would that make you feel?

 

If I was the bs in your situation, I would have walked a long time ago. If you were in her shoes, and it was her who had written your opening post about the man she had been sleeping with, what would you think? Really give that some consideration.

 

This is what I don't think you are understanding. You can do all of the things you did, but if your heart is still tied to your ex-ow, none of it is going to matter. You can say sorry, I love you, read books, the bible, spend money, but that's all just putting lipstick on a pig ( not that you are a pig, it's just the situation that stinks). Underneath all of that, your heart is not pure.

 

When you told her you loved her, did your mind flash back, even for a second, to your ow? Since the A, have you been mentally comparing the two? If you say something and your wife doesn't agree, do you think " my ow would understand that"?

 

How do you think your wife felt when she found out you only ended the A and told her about it because you were afraid your ow would beat you to it? Does she know this?

 

Have you asked her why she chose to stay with you? Does she know it's not working for you ( have you told her this?)? If so, what did she say? Show her your opening post and let her see how little you actually care about her.( I know that makes you sound bad, but it's the reality).

 

When you met with pastors and therapists, did you tell them how often your mind drifts to the ow? What wold they have to say about your opening post? Do they know this question was in your mind?

 

Again, I am not trying to give you a hard time. I'm seeing a guy who is miserable, and not seeing that there are steps he can take to fix it. You can either face up to your situation or leave. Really, unless both you and your wife can find some way of empathizing with each other ( and not just lip service) going your separate ways may well be for the best.

 

summary...it's not the words from your mouth but what's in your heart that counts....can you honestly say that you have approached reconciliation form a perspective that has room in your heart for your wife only? I know in the early days that would probably be hard, but this was written by you five years out "Not a day goes by where I don't think of the OW. Almost 5 years later, she is in my heart still.". You wrote this after all that therapy, bible reading, book reading, etc.

This, right here ( your words) is why there is nothing your wife could have done to reconcile your marriage.Again, reverse the roles. If it was your wife saying this five years after she was forced to end her A, what would you think?

 

It's not about making you feel guilty or saying you are a bad guy. I don't think you are a bad guy. I think you have also been really hurt by all of this, but nothing you say your wife needed form you was abnormal. In fact, many bs are advised to go even further ( voice activated recorders, lie detectors, post nuptial agreements, being told their ws is a (expletive deleted) etc.). Just read some of the threads on here for more details.[/QUOTe]

 

Sorry, MacBride......it is you who is not reading anything I am saying....I do not have the time or the energy to detail or prove to you. You simply do not have all the information and no matter what I say, you are going to keep picking at the purity of my heart. you have no idea of the purity of my heart .

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

Yes. Stop fantasizing about your OW. Stop checking up on your OW. None of what you did matter when you are still doing both

 

For the 4th time, I don't. Please read ALL my posts

[Starswillshine]

For the 4th time, I don't. Please read ALL my posts

 

I HAVE. Have you really read what you have written?

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

I HAVE. Have you really read what you have written?

 

yes.....I have NOT checked up on her, stalked her, contacted her, talked or texted her.....zero, nada.....NOTHING. I have answered this several times!

 

If I am in the stands at a kids ball game and someone mentions her behind me talking to someone else.....how is that checking up on her?

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

Yes. Stop fantasizing about your OW. Stop checking up on your OW. None of what you did matter when you are still doing both

 

Read Post 37

[knabe]

What did I do? Lets just say I have seen 3 therapist for 5 years, a week long marriage intensive, meet with the paster every other week for 5 years...they all say everything I have done is far more than most men do in trying to repair/restore their marriage. In fact, both the Pastor and therapist said, most good men would have left after year 3. What have I done. I left my job, left my career, left my dream, changed phone numbers, had zero contact, had a GPS tracker app on my phone for her to track my every movement. keystroke logger on my computer which emailed her what I did, called and texted her every destination I was at (first 3 months I even sent a picture of where I was), gave her a rundown of every location I was at to be accountable. I met with therapist for years. I pursued her. Loved her, took every insult, anger burst, cuss words and said I Love you. Wrote her hundreds of letters, emails, sticky notes, insisted we see marriage counselor (went through 3 of those), insisted we talk and communicate (she hates doing that).....Cooked for her, went over the top in birthdays, anniversaries, etc....bought her a diamond ring that costs thousands. Insisted and dragged her to church every Sunday, Read dozens of books, videos, read through the Bible over 4 times. (and yes Psalms 51 is the most marked up, cried over, prayed over and it opens automatically there). I prayed over her, with her, bared the agony of confessing to her parents because she insisted they know...I guess to shame me...what ever she asked I did....I begged her forgiveness, said I am sorry a hundred million times....tried to hold her (she has never been affectionate and prefers to withdraw and be alone).....all the while, her only response to if she loved me was "I'm here aren't I". I initiate 100% of all physical contact and mentioning any terms of endearment. She will not say I love you first. It always has to be prompted. .....

 

How is that list? Do I need to add more?

 

Okay, I'm gonna stop mentioning your A. If all of the above is true (and I am assujming it is because that is how I roll)....then yes, your anger makes a lot more sense.

[ItsColdAsCrapInAlaska]

Yes you do.

 

I know you don't like hearing this, but NONE of that was enough because you were still holding a torch for your ow, and you even say this yourself. It was playing enough on your mind that felt the need to see it gel as a question and ask it on an internet forum.

 

You have not approached it with an open heart. When you say you love her, that is not true. If she isn't interested is physical intimacy, do you know why that is? As many bs will tell you, it's because she is likley picturing you and your ow being intimate together- this is so common, there is even a jargon term for it- mind movies. Would you want to be intimate with her if every time you went to hold her, an image of her having sex with another man popped into your head? How would that make you feel?

 

If I was the bs in your situation, I would have walked a long time ago. If you were in her shoes, and it was her who had written your opening post about the man she had been sleeping with, what would you think? Really give that some consideration.

 

This is what I don't think you are understanding. You can do all of the things you did, but if your heart is still tied to your ex-ow, none of it is going to matter. You can say sorry, I love you, read books, the bible, spend money, but that's all just putting lipstick on a pig ( not that you are a pig, it's just the situation that stinks). Underneath all of that, your heart is not pure.

 

When you told her you loved her, did your mind flash back, even for a second, to your ow? Since the A, have you been mentally comparing the two? If you say something and your wife doesn't agree, do you think " my ow would understand that"?

 

How do you think your wife felt when she found out you only ended the A and told her about it because you were afraid your ow would beat you to it? Does she know this?

 

Have you asked her why she chose to stay with you? Does she know it's not working for you ( have you told her this?)? If so, what did she say? Show her your opening post and let her see how little you actually care about her.( I know that makes you sound bad, but it's the reality).

 

When you met with pastors and therapists, did you tell them how often your mind drifts to the ow? What wold they have to say about your opening post? Do they know this question was in your mind?

 

Again, I am not trying to give you a hard time. I'm seeing a guy who is miserable, and not seeing that there are steps he can take to fix it. You can either face up to your situation or leave. Really, unless both you and your wife can find some way of empathizing with each other ( and not just lip service) going your separate ways may well be for the best.

 

summary...it's not the words from your mouth but what's in your heart that counts....can you honestly say that you have approached reconciliation form a perspective that has room in your heart for your wife only? I know in the early days that would probably be hard, but this was written by you five years out "Not a day goes by where I don't think of the OW. Almost 5 years later, she is in my heart still.". You wrote this after all that therapy, bible reading, book reading, etc.

This, right here ( your words) is why there is nothing your wife could have done to reconcile your marriage.Again, reverse the roles. If it was your wife saying this five years after she was forced to end her A, what would you think?

 

It's not about making you feel guilty or saying you are a bad guy. I don't think you are a bad guy. I think you have also been really hurt by all of this, but nothing you say your wife needed form you was abnormal. In fact, many bs are advised to go even further ( voice activated recorders, lie detectors, post nuptial agreements, being told their ws is a (expletive deleted) etc.). Just read some of the threads on here for more details.

 

Read Post 37.....

 

If what is in your heart is the only thing that matters, then we pull out of all countries and wars would cease to exist....

[Starswillshine]

yes.....I have NOT checked up on her, stalked her, contacted her, talked or texted her.....zero, nada.....NOTHING. I have answered this several times!

 

If I am in the stands at a kids ball game and someone mentions her behind me talking to someone else.....how is that checking up on her?

 

So you are sitting at a baseball game and someone else is talking amongst themselves and somehow they mention that she would be interested in being wirh You?

 

Otherwise I call BS. There seems to be a lot of back pedaling on this thread.

 

You came here asking if this is true love. Like I said in my first post, no one can answer that. And I don't think you can ever be sure with a relationship that is an affair. Too muddy of waters.

 

But you came here discussing your OW and wanted us to say, "yes, run to your OW." And then place blame on your wife for why things aren't working out. None of us are in your marriage. We are all just going by what you are saying. And considering you told us point blank that not a day goes by in the last 5 years where you have not thought about it.... we can see what the issue is. I PROMISE you, your wife can pick up on that. That isn't to say she isn't part of the issue on wht your marriage is moving forward, but you cannot control her, you can only control yourself. And if you don't want a divorce, you should want to have the happiest marriage that you can get... And part of that is losing all thoughts of the OW. Now of course, that is easier said than done. No, it doesn't mean that it is true love with OW.

 

We are answering the questions you brought forward. And we are telling you actually haven't done everything to reconcile your marrage. Doesn't make you a bad person. Just someone who is pining away for some person you can't have.