Im a fool, can i fix this?

[JRM74]

As I continue to plead...

 

Thsre was NOT two other women! There was a platonic (x's written words In May which Z has seen) and an obsessive Y who each time became heavy was pushed away (124 emails in a year begging for her "best friend" to talk to her and not cut her off.

 

What would I do if I had a friend going through this? I would accept FACT, proven hard fact rather than cherry picked snippets with no dates or times. And then I would make my own informed decision.

 

Regardless of that decision, even if I believed it wrong, I would support my friend in whatever choice they made, because it's THEIR choice, not mine. If that means being there to pick up the pieces then so be it.

[mikeylo]

Playing the devil here -- what if she DOESN"T miss you ? and begins to feel that life so much better with no drama of you, x, y or other prospective alpabets ?

 

From the sounds of it, it seems her heart and head are at the right place. She is smart. You are a fool. How did you even get together? She can make your life better but you can't make hers any better. So your little game of her missing you, might backfire

[SammySammy]

Get yourself together, man.

 

If you had handled things appropriately with X and Y - by ending the relationships cleanly early on - you would still be with Z.

 

Z knows that. She's not dumb and deserves much better than your excuses and rationalizations.

 

You might not like what I'm saying, but I'm telling you the truth.

 

Work on being a stand up guy and you'll put yourself in a position to keep the next good woman you have a relationship with.

[JRM74]

Mike,

 

She's said in the past few weeks, when she's with me the thoughts go away, when she is alone they return and a little bit of the love she has gets chipped away.

 

Our life was (lies aside) absolutely perfect, we spent every spare moment together and it was blissful. Again. These are her words too. We never once had a bad thing to say to each other.

 

I do believe she misses me, even right now. Wednesdays were a special day for us as she had some free time in the afternoon.

 

I would get messages within an hour of us parting stating that she was "missing you already".

 

We had a deep deep love for one another, it is so hard to describe. It was very very real.

[mikeylo]

Oh well, I guess the crux of the problem is outside forces and you falling into their mind games.Not saying you are innocent here.You chose to keep them on the side and of course they took advantage of you being weak!

 

Like I said before, the cost for a future with Z is ZERO women 'friends'. Is it realistic for you? Not just x or y but any other in future as well. Is it even possible for you? Thats what Z wants to see and know without her asking you to.

 

Good luck.

 

YOU have to be the one to get her past your lies.( Dont ask me how ! I don't take risks over my wife !)

[JRM74]

Cheers Mike,

 

I know exactly who is to blame here, that is myself. Noone else regardless of their position within the alphabet. I was weak, and as already stated, had no backbone.

 

I am at a loss as to how I can get her past the lies too but I can assure you that there would be no more!

As I previously mentioned, Z is a Christian, the faith is all about forgiveness. She has said she forgives me because she knows my. Apologies are sincere, then she takes that back days later.

 

I've attended church with her and about six weeks ago (the last time we went) we took communion. She did say I didn't have to and I could remain seated but I wanted to. I spent longer than most at the front because I was PLEADING for help. This is before this all came to light.

 

I am trying to live with hope and faith that we will try again but it's so tough.

[mikeylo]

See, this is again all talk !

 

What about no women friends ? You are choosing to ignore that fact . This is what she wants to see. And you are again giving words of assurance that are meaningless. How many other women do you have under your belt 'as friends ' ? She wants to see that as well.

 

How many on your social media ? How many on private chats ? This is what you have created -- mistrust.

 

You can't pick and choose anymore. Can you live like that ? I doubt. She has a daughter. I'm sure Z wouldn't want a guy around her daughter who doesn't have any integrity... Of course she is a single mother and well, if you are serious with her then you might have to take place as role model for her daughter. But a guy who goes around with other women.... not someone she would want her daughter to be exposed to. Just like if you had a boy , would you want a woman around him who was chatting up other men ?

 

Look, it's serious business. You failed the first time. Second time around, you pay the cost. You are choosing to ignore an unknown person on the internet (me) but you can't choose to ignore what she wants. Choose it, loseher.

[knabe]

Um...the whole "she is a Christian so it's on her to forgive me" routine is not going to earn you any points with her.

 

Forgiveness does NOT necessarily mean reconciliation.

[JRM74]

Thanks again Mike,

 

No, there are no others nor would there ever be again. I am happy to close any social media accounts. I would be happier to add Z as 'being in a relationship'.

 

I want to install parental tracking software on my phone, giving Z the opportunity to see where I am at all times, she could read messages and see my call list. I want us to undertake counselling together. I want to see her every single day (she works 8 minutes from my home and 3 minutes from my workplace - I can be there every day when she leaves).

 

I am listening to you bud, I'm not ignoring you and I sincerely thank you for your input.

 

If I was to be given a second chance I would not fudge it, I really mean that.

[JRM74]

You are right Knabe, forgiveness does not make everything OK. Z could forgive with wisdom, knowing that she forgives but also knowing that it cannot be cast aside.

 

I would accept the forgiveness willingly should it be given without terms or contract. However should it be the means to reconciliation I would NEVER break her trust again.

[knabe]

Z could forgive with wisdom, knowing that she forgives but also knowing that it cannot be cast aside.

 

Um, no. You missed the point. Can you not see the irony in YOU criticizing HER because you don't think she is forgiving well enough???

 

Come on man, you're really making this all about you. Do you have ANY empathy?

[mikeylo]

She has forgiven you and believes you to some extent. It will really take time to make it right. There is no fast way. If she takes it back few days later then dude, you've got to know that something triggers it-- you being shady, behaving like you did when you were chatting up others , or really making

'new friends' , or something else. Her radar is up and if she gets ANY indication of your past , her sirens go wild.And rightly so. She is smart to not ignore it this time. Remember, she is thinking about herself and her daughter as well.

 

I guess, you need to talk to her sooner than later

[JRM74]

She has forgiven you and believes you to some extent. It will really take time to make it right. There is no fast way. If she takes it back few days later then dude, you've got to know that something triggers it-- you being shady, behaving like you did when you were chatting up others , or really making

'new friends' , or something else. Her radar is up and if she gets ANY indication of your past , her sirens go wild.And rightly so. She is smart to not ignore it this time. Remember, she is thinking about herself and her daughter as well.

 

I guess, you need to talk to her sooner than later

 

Thanks,

 

Well, as explained, a few weeks ago she was considering giving me the chance to make things up to her and prove to her that i want just her. then the memories come back.

 

Ive no idea what keeps triggering her to back away, It is nothing that i am doing, yes, it is what i have done.

I just know that she is incredibly hurt and I understand that things cant simply be pushed aside. when the hurt comes flooding back for her it takes her a million steps backwards.

 

The only thing that can stop the hurting memories is my actions. Treating her with the respect that i should have in the first place and loving her unconditionally will help fade the memories and in turn help us rekindle.

 

I am certain that she doesnt want us to have split, i know that she loved me an aful lot, i believe she still does love me. It is that love that i am trying to cling onto, i do not want it to fade away from her.

 

We have not spoken at all for 11 days now when she blocked my Whatsapp.

I recieved an email from her the next day i wont write it exactly but it reads..

 

"I am not able to forget nor forgive the lies, i would like you to leave me alone and not to attempt further contact, time will heal us both so that we are better equiped to deal with future relationships.... goodbye, there were some good times"

 

 

So, this was sent last Saturday, and as i said, very final. I have not contacted her since. The last four words hurt, some good times? our while life was fantastic.

I think she is beginning to feel better, all of last month she had very restless nights waking at 3am and checking her phone. she hasnt done that all week. when we were talking she told me that often these awakenings were due to bad dreams thinking that i was messaging Y.

I myself have not slept properly, managing maybe 4 hours a night, i had a bad dream which was so convincing i had to check to see, i dreamt that i had given my new cell number to Y.

 

I also have a feeling of utter dread, i sometimes think that Z has, assuming she is firm in her breakup, re-established conversations with Y in order to try and seek some closure. Everyone who has met Z and knows the story has said that there is no way she would do that as Z has experienced Y's behaviour first hand.

 

I am so convinced that i can be trusted again, i really am.

 

Im also convinced that the only way Z can even begin to forgive is for us to begin contact again, and as you say mike, sooner rather than later.

 

Z is due in work in two hours, a few weeks ago Z had a down evening and blocked me on everything. the next morning i had to pass by her work at around the time she was due to arrive. She saw me but drove past without even looking at me. Half an hour later i had a message from her...

 

"why were you here?"

 

I replied with "maybe its because i miss you, it could even be that i wanted just to see you, or it coould be that i was passing as i had an appointment in town, all three are true."

 

she replies, "i was suprised" with a smiley icon.

 

My response "a smile?"

 

she replies with "you always make me smile".

 

This then led to us chatting for a couple of days, before she blocs me again.

 

 

So, the incident of passing by her work broke the ice, I am very tempted to do it again today but with more of a direct approach of attempting to talk with her.

 

opinions?

[mikeylo]

when the hurt comes flooding back for her it takes her a million steps backwards.

 

Very Normal.

 

The only thing that can stop the hurting memories is my actions. Treating her with the respect that i should have in the first place and loving her unconditionally will help fade the memories and in turn help us rekindle.

 

True.

 

i know that she loved me an aful lot,

That's why the hurt is more. It wouldn't have hurt her if she didn't love you in the first place.

 

The last four words hurt, some good times?

Your hurt is nothing as compared to hers. She might have put the pieces together and found that when she was actually happy, she didn't know your dark secrets.So for her now, those perceived happy moments were not real.

 

I also have a feeling of utter dread, i sometimes think that Z has, assuming she is firm in her breakup, re-established conversations with Y in order to try and seek some closure. Everyone who has met Z and knows the story has said that there is no way she would do that as Z has experienced Y's behaviour first hand.

 

From what you have said about Z, I too doubt she will approach but I guess Y would. She is a woman scorned and caught in her manipulation and dirty tricks.She might say some false things again.

 

 

I am so convinced that i can be trusted again, i really am.

 

Im also convinced that the only way Z can even begin to forgive is for us to begin contact again, and as you say mike, sooner rather than later.

 

Then do it. Once you are convinced, half the job is done but its not much use if you can't convince Z. I hope it doesn't become too little too late case.

 

with more of a direct approach of attempting to talk with her.

 

 

Direct is always better than beating around the bush.

 

When memories of your deceit come back, that's when you need to hold on tight to her. That's when she is weak. The present and future that you show her should ( and can ) win but unfortunately the burden this time around is all on you. I would be concerned of Y trying to contact Z. Because she has been successful before, it gives her motivation to try again. It depends on Z how she takes it. Since you are apart from Z, she might end up thinking that its too much drama with too much interference . Why should she have to deal with your other women? Why are they her problem?

 

Look man, like I said, I'm all for relationships to work but to be successful, its a lot of work.

 

Can you be the guy that Z feels proud to bring to her daughter? At this age, its not about meeting the parents.Its about meeting the kids.

 

Love doesn't die so quickly. Its been few weeks , its still there , raw. But again, the hurt is still there and will stay for a long time.If you feel you can pass the storm and heal her ( its all on you) , only then think about going in the second time around.There will be more down times than up. She is taking a risk if she gives you another chance. After that she will move on very quickly.

[JRM74]

Very Normal.

 

 

 

True.

 

That's why the hurt is more. It wouldn't have hurt her if she didn't love you in the first place.

 

Your hurt is nothing as compared to hers. She might have put the pieces together and found that when she was actually happy, she didn't know your dark secrets.So for her now, those perceived happy moments were not real.

 

 

 

From what you have said about Z, I too doubt she will approach but I guess Y would. She is a woman scorned and caught in her manipulation and dirty tricks.She might say some false things again.

 

 

 

 

Then do it. Once you are convinced, half the job is done but its not much use if you can't convince Z. I hope it doesn't become too little too late case.

 

 

 

Direct is always better than beating around the bush.

 

When memories of your deceit come back, that's when you need to hold on tight to her. That's when she is weak. The present and future that you show her should ( and can ) win but unfortunately the burden this time around is all on you. I would be concerned of Y trying to contact Z. Because she has been successful before, it gives her motivation to try again. It depends on Z how she takes it. Since you are apart from Z, she might end up thinking that its too much drama with too much interference . Why should she have to deal with your other women? Why are they her problem?

 

Look man, like I said, I'm all for relationships to work but to be successful, its a lot of work.

 

Can you be the guy that Z feels proud to bring to her daughter? At this age, its not about meeting the parents.Its about meeting the kids.

 

Love doesn't die so quickly. Its been few weeks , its still there , raw. But again, the hurt is still there and will stay for a long time.If you feel you can pass the storm and heal her ( its all on you) , only then think about going in the second time around.There will be more down times than up. She is taking a risk if she gives you another chance. After that she will move on very quickly.

 

 

I have no idea on how to quote as you have, but all the points youve quoted on are bang on. Especially the bit about her thinking the happy times were not real. she has said that in the past, before i showed her that the relationships with X and Y were no longer intimate.

 

Z is much stronger than to yield due to a troublemaking ex. I am sure that they are not talking. I know that Z has blocked all forms of contact from Y but Y has not done the same, clearly that is so she is able to continue with the BS if Z wishes to Listen.

 

I am willing to do anything, and i mean absolutely anything for Z and any potential reconcilliation. I am prepared to put in as much work as it takes and i know that it wouldnt be an overnight success, it is likely to take years of work and dedication.

Z's Daughter and i get on so very well, i have no problem there aside from the fact that Z had to tell her "xxxxx let mummy down".

 

I appreciate your comment regarding love not dying quickly and i know i can absolutely heal her. I am very aware that there wouldnt be another chance.

 

 

To today, I resisted waiting for her at work this morning but i was in the area, i cycle and there is a junction near her work, turning left takes her to work, turning right takes me home, i need to move to the right so i have a quick glance over my shoulder to check its safe, this glance was no longer than half a second and i did not make eye contact with the driver however i know the car very well and i am 95% sure that it was Z behind me, especially as that car turned left towards her work.

 

Today is the last opportunity i would have to attempt contact until the middle of next week, i am trying to resist going to her work for when she finishes, she has no time to really talk then as she has to rush to pick up her daughter.

Edited July 7, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[ExpatInItaly]

You're too much work, OP.

 

A woman like this - who was strong to enough to end all contact with you - is very unlikely to return. She wants someone she doesn't need to go through all this hassle with. You brought with you way too much drama, dishonesty and chaos. Phone trackers? Meh. She wants a guy who doesn't even feel the need to table that idea, simply because he was transparent from Day 1. In theory, I see why you'd offer, but in reality? It would only remind her why you feel you should be tracked.

 

Leave her alone. She has already told you once not to contact her again. Please, stop acting in your own interests and start respecting this woman by listening to her wish. If she changes her mind, and she might but I strongly doubt it, she will find you. Until then, you have to lie in the bed you made and move on.

[JRM74]

Thank you for your input expat. Even if it's something I don't want to hear. It is still valued.

 

I cannot us give up, I see little hope, actually no hope while she is not talking to me. Which is why I am desperate to reopen communication. I know we can make it work.

The dramas were created my me being dishonest and were massively exaggerated. By x and y. Things calmed very quickly once Z realized. But of course the seed was planted.

 

I do not feel the need to be tracked, it was to give Z piece of mind. Similar have been suggested to reconcilling couples elsewhere on these boards.

 

I just need the tiniest spark to nurture until it grows, Z gave me that a couple of weeks ago with the thoughts of a new "first date", I love you's and passionate kisses. Which would be more commonplace if we were talking again.

[mikeylo]

I don't want to put damper on your hope but I do agree that Z is a strong woman who needs a strong man to be able to withstand her strong nature.You are weak, she has seen that. The x, y, a or b won't be able to demoralize her even if they tried BUT why should Z have to deal with them? That is the question.

 

x or y exaggerated or not is not the issue. YOU entertained them on the side, that is the issue. They did what they did because YOU were part of the play.You didnt reject their behavior.You went along with it.

 

If you shut the door nicely, they wouldn't dare peep in. But you didn't.You left it half open and of course they seeped in.

 

Anyways, now close the door firmly and do what you have to. Some distance helps clear the mind but after that people begin to move on.If she has given you a tiny piece of hope, nurture it without making any new ' friends' or making amends with x or y( they will try to reel you back )

Edited July 6, 2017 by mikeylo

[JRM74]

Thanks Mike,

 

I could see no way with Y on shutting the door in any nice, gentle way. I tried many times, even before meeting Z but she would just keep banging and banging on it.

 

I wish there was a way to attach screenshots, I've just been zipping through messages between Z and I. I've found one from March where I tell her how amazing she is, she replies with "you make me feel like I'm going to pop, I can't believe anyone likes me so much". I then refer to the knock her previous relationship gave her. Her reply was "it would be wrong to make it all like its down to that, I've never had any self confidence".

 

So, I guess strong is not the right word, she learnt to become very independent during the 4 years between him and I.

 

I am really regretting not attempting to talk to her today. I love her so much!

[mikeylo]

When someone doesn't 'get' it , then you HAVE to be firm and rude. But the problem is not just them. You were keeping them by choice.

 

Anyways,if she wasn't strong earlier, she has become now, after this experience with you! She dumped you .

 

Love might make her weak enough to take you back though if you play it right.

 

Good Luck

[Space Ritual]

I am so convinced that i can be trusted again, i really am.

 

You don't just wake up one morning and declare yourself trustworthy. This isn't a movie where the scene skips to "Six Months Later...."

 

You do that through consistent action that lines up with your words. And that may take YEARS. You are still making this all about you and not about the people you hurt.

 

I'm sorry but you are nowhere near trustworthy , and won't be for quite some time. At the very least until you actually do some work on yourself.

 

Leave the poor girl alone. Not doing so only stunts your own understanding of the gravity of your actions, and guarantees a repeat performance.

[mikeylo]

OTOH, your relationship started on lies. You were having a relationship with 3 women at the same time. Of course , YOU were a happy guy!

 

Z deserves better.