Love her, but so so hurt...

[spiderowl]

Your wife's behaviours sound abusive. Has she said anything nice or loving to you in the past year?

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Guys/gals, I haven't had a chance to reply because I picked up my little guy for some Toys R Us and subsequent playtime with the new toys.

 

Wish me luck: she's on the way over for all 3 of us to go to 4th of July.

 

I'll respond later when I get a chance.

 

Thanks again for everything, and apologies for not having responded sooner.

[Marc878]

That's my opinion, but I'm just not sure. She claims no, and was sick for 2 days over this. . .again, so she claims.

 

I make the money, and this was her 2nd marriage. Yes, she works, and does well.

 

Yep, she was on the phone CONSTANTLY. She would also take her phone into the bathroom and go around corners to use it. Yep. . .SUPER shady. Even when I was talking to her she'd be on the phone. She doesn't travel for work, she doesn't have girls nights out, and she hates working late. Lol. . .that was one of her biggest gripes with me is that I was always in the office (home office; don't get any ideas, people) until late at night. She felt like I was communicating with ex's, which is just. . .ewww. I'm married. That's disgusting.

 

Red flags all over the place.

 

Read up

"No More Mr Nice Guy" free PDF download

 

Quit letting yourself get walked on. At this point you've been a doormat for so long she obviously no longer has any respect for you.

 

A big part of this is you have no respect for yourself. GET SOME!!!!

[CnfsdTXDad1]

TexasDad, the behaviors you describe are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Specifically, the irrational anger, verbal abuse, controlling actions, triggered temper tantrums, need for drama, lack of impulse control, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong traits of it.

 

If she is a "BPDer" -- i.e., exhibits strong and persistent BPD symptoms -- that is exactly what you should expect. In the same way that a narcissist always thinks of himself as "The Special One," a BPDer nearly always thinks of herself as "The Victim." A BPDer has such a weak and fragile sense of self identity that she keeps a death grip on that false self image of being The Victim. She therefore will seek frequent "validation" from you that it is true.

 

Toward that end, a BPDer will remain married to you only as you play one of two roles. During the courtship period, you played the role of "The Rescuer," i.e., the guy who rode in on a white horse to rescue her from unhappiness. The obvious implication of being The Rescuer is that she must be a "victim" in need of rescue.

 

After her infatuation started to evaporate about six months later, however, your days in The Rescuer role would become increasingly scarce. Instead, she would increasingly start perceiving of you in your second role: The Perpetrator, i.e., the cause of her every misfortune. Clearly, as long as you are willing to continue being blamed for everything, your W likely will be willing to stay married to you. If she is a BPDer, you are feeding her great need for validation as The Victim.

 

As I noted above, a BPDer has such an enormous need to be validated as The Victim that she likely will choose to remain married to you as long as you continue to pretend that you're The Perpetrator. As long as you're willing to play that Perpetrator role, a BPDer is unlikely to leave you anytime soon. You are meeting her need for validation. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

No, YOU DON'T. The "calming" and "coaching" is what you do with your four year old son. The reason you have been doing this with your W -- if she is a BPDer -- is that her emotional development is frozen at the level of a 4 year old. This means she never learned the more mature ego defenses, e.g., how to self sooth, how to control anger and other emotions, and how to distract your own mind to avoid getting stuck in obsessive loops of thinking.

 

Instead, she is fully reliant on the ego defenses we all use when we are 3 and 4 years old: e.g., lying, projection, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, magical thinking, and escaping into daydreams. This is why, if you want to stay married to her, you must continue walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her rage. And this is why the #1 best-selling BPD book is titled, Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

If she exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, you have good reason to be scared. A BPDer carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

Likewise, I was never able to shop for furniture with my BPDer exW. This was especially apparent when we drove a long distance out of state to the furniture capital of the country. We went there to purchase an expensive chair/ottoman and dining room chairs. Although we shopped for 3 days in a dozen large furniture showrooms, we drove back home without a chair. Every time I had agreed with her choice, it was the kiss of death for that chair.

 

Being a BPDer, my exW had a powerful feeling that I was somehow controlling her decisions. Hence, the only way she could feel like she was making the decision was to pick a chair she knew I would absolutely hate. Because BPDers feel controlled and suffocated by their mates, they will even feel controlled when you give them a surprise present (because YOU were the one to pick it out or when to buy it).

 

No, not really "crazy." A person who is crazy (or psychotic) has a distorted view of physical reality, e.g., believing that the TV news anchor is speaking to her personally. In contrast, a BPDer typically sees physical reality just fine. What is distorted is her perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations.

 

The human condition -- for all of us -- is that we experience that distortion of other peoples' intentions whenever we experience very intense feelings (e.g., love or hate). This is why we all try to keep our mouths shut when very angry and try to wait two years before buying the ring when very infatuated. Well, BPDers are like that too. Yet, because they cannot control their emotions, they experience intense feelings far more frequently than the rest of us.

 

Due to her emotional immaturity, a BPDer cannot tolerate being consciously aware of strong conflicting feelings toward anyone. Hence, like a young child, a BPDer solves this problem by "splitting off" the conflicting feeling (e.g., love or hate), putting it far out of reach of her conscious mind.

 

The result is that a BPDer typically will categorize everyone close to her as white ("with me" or "all good") or black ("against me" or "all bad"). And she will recategorize someone, in just ten seconds, based solely on a minor comment or action. This immature way of perceiving other people at polar extremes is called "black-white thinking." It is a basic ego defense we all rely on heavily throughout childhood.

 

Perhaps so. Yet, if she is a BPDer, that is highly unlikely. As I noted above, it is common for a BPDer to quickly flip between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (hating you). If that seems strange, remember that you likely see this childish behavior several times a day in your young son. He will adore Daddy while you're bringing out the toys but instantly flip to hating Daddy when you take one toy away.

 

If she is a BPDer, she likely is very easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. BPDers typically exhibit a warmth, intensity, and purity of expressions that otherwise is seen only in young children.

 

If she is a BPDer, you likely realized several years ago that you cannot trust her. Until a BPDer learns how to trust herself, she is incapable of trusting anyone else for an extended period. As long as she cannot trust YOU, you cannot trust HER because she can turn on you at any moment -- as you likely had learned when you were only two years into your marriage.

 

Those "yes men" are not helping the situation. Yet, if she is a BPDer, your W would have had the same blind view of her own behaviors -- with or without the encouragement from her family members. When a person exhibits strong and persistent BPD behaviors, they have a thought distortion that originates in early childhood.

 

Because they've been thinking and behaving that way since childhood, their behaviors and thinking are so harmonious with the needs of their ego that they seem perfectly natural to the BPDer. It therefore is rare for a high functioning BPDer to be sufficiently self aware to know that it is her distorted thinking and her dysfunctional behavior that is destroying the marriage.

 

If you really have been living with a BPDer for over five years, "screwed up" is exactly how you should be feeling. Of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual (DSM-5), BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. This is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

Good advice. I agree with them and BluesPower that professional guidance likely would be helpful. I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your two sons are dealing with.

 

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper third of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid returning to this toxic marriage or, if you do decide to divorce her, avoid running right into the arms of another woman just like her.

 

I therefore suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread -- and read the description of what it's like to live with a BPDer wife for 23 years in Salparadise's post. If those descriptions ring many bells and raise questions, I would be glad to join BluesPower and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, TexasDad.

 

Thank you very, very much for taking so much time to respond. This wasn't fun to read and take an inventory, but here goes:

 

Thank you as to the 'don't coach' paragraph. That crap is really exhausting. It's very unpleasant to be in a confrontation/argument, but to have to forego my own emotions to address hers? Not good.

 

Her anger really scares me. To wake our child due to her yelling and it still not register that she's out of hand and to continue yelling and I have to put him to bed? Wow. Or the other version where she's holding him and would start fights with me. But the one that really scares me is the yelling and what I can only assume is a mental blackout type of anger. I know because I get this way physically when someone has way overstepped bounds (like when my high & drunk neighbor tried to ram my wife's car when she was 8 months pregnant) - I blackout too. But I would NEVER yell at a woman. It's ungentlemanly and it's unseemly. Plus, it's really just plain ugly to act that way.

 

The furniture and finances thing is ridiculous. We have no idea how much the other one has between accounts, 401s, IRAs, stocks, etc. Sad, really.

 

The 'yes men' in her family have destroyed our marriage, but not entirely: she let them into the marriage in the first place.

 

As to me being in counseling, it has really helped, although nobody has seemed to come to this diagnosis for her. I'm far from crazy or thinking I am. I've always been able to keep my feet on the ground. The difference was when I had a chance to stand back and realize 'WTF am I doing, and why have I allowed myself to be treated like this?!' was when I crumbled out of sadness and disbelief in myself that I allowed it. I have NEVER had to deal with this much crap in a relationship, but then again this is a marriage, and I wanted to fight for it, at all costs, until the surface tension broke and the entire glass dumped out.

 

I've been seeing a psychologist (actually tried 4, but 2 were a little cuckoo (one tried to get me to join his religion and kept espousing the importance of religious retreats, etc., and the other kept trying to talk about my parents and my childhood when I stated clearly 5 times that I was there for marriage counseling and marriage counseling only) and one was a feminist. The current one is great, and that is who my wife is now seeing. We both have individual sessions next week, and then we start the real marriage counseling (insert bottle of vodka here). Whew that's gonna be some fun. . .not.

 

As to the BPD 18 symptoms, I circled 10. Again: not good.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Your wife's behaviours sound abusive. Has she said anything nice or loving to you in the past year?

 

Oh yeah, plenty. It hasn't been all rainy days whatsoever. In December, right before New Year's Eve, she yelled at me one night. . .badly. That's when she woke our baby boy up out of his sleep. So the next night (this was very not okay, but after 6 years, I had had enough of tolerating this abuse), I drank a lot of bourbon (liquid courage) and started a fight. I didn't just start a fight. . .I became her on steroids. I was cussing and yelling at her not more than 6 inches from her face (I'm 6'2" and she's 5'4"). She eventually just turned around and went back to bed. I wasn't very proud of my performance, but I needed her to see just how ugly that type of behavior is. The next day was New Year's Day, and I had a literal come to Jesus meeting with her: she changes, or I'm out. And it was good for about 4 months, and then it collapsed again.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Red flags all over the place.

 

Read up

"No More Mr Nice Guy" free PDF download

 

Quit letting yourself get walked on. At this point you've been a doormat for so long she obviously no longer has any respect for you.

 

A big part of this is you have no respect for yourself. GET SOME!!!!

 

Yep, red flags indeed. I am done getting walked on, believe me. And you're right about the self-respect. . .thank you for that. That's been semi-absent for some time, thusly my moving out.

[Downtown]

As to the BPD 18 symptoms, I circled 10....

Counseling... has really helped, although nobody has seemed to come to this diagnosis for her.

TexasDad, if your W exhibits most BPD symptoms strongly, it is unlikely that a therapist will tell her the true diagnosis. To protect their BPDer clients, psychologists and other therapists typically are LOATH to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder (unless she is very low functioning). This means therapists also are loath to tell the abused spouse -- even when that spouse is paying for all therapy bills. Therapists know that, during the BPDer's very next temper tantrum, the first thing out of the abused spouse's mouth will be "Even your own psychologist says you have BPD."

 

There are several reasons why withholding this information is in the best interests of the high functioning BPDers (who likely constitute 2/3 to 3/4 of all BPDers). One reason is that, on hearing the diagnosis, a BPDer almost certainly will immediately terminate therapy. A second reason is that recording the diagnosis as "BPD" likely means the insurance company will refuse to pay for therapy treatments.

 

Granted, here in the USA there is a federal law requiring insurance companies to cover effective, proven treatments for mental disorders, including PDs. The companies nonetheless routinely withhold payment, arguing that no treatment of PDs is proven effective. Therapists thus avoid a costly legal battle in the courts by simply listing one or two of the co-occurring "clinical" (non-PD) disorders (e.g., anxiety or depression) as the diagnosis.

 

The third reason is that, in the unlikely event that a BPDer believes the psychologist when she is told the disorder's name, her being told can make her behavior worse instead of better. Because BPDers have a fragile weak sense of self identity, they look to other people (e.g., their spouse or therapist) for clues as to how they should be feeling and behaving. BPDers thus are attracted to partners having a strong personality that is able to provide the missing sense of self identity. This means that, when telling a BPDer the name of her disorder, the therapist is providing her a new identity of sorts. The result can be that a BPDer who had been exhibiting 5 or 6 strong BPD traits will start exhibiting 8 or 9 BPD traits.

 

I've been seeing a psychologist.... The current one is great, and that is who my wife is now seeing.

If your W exhibits strong BPD traits as you believe, relying on her psychologist for candid advice during the marriage is as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. Her psychologist is not your friend. Your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to see a psychologist who is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not those of your W.

 

This is why I earlier suggested you see a psychologist for a visit or two all by yourself. Moreover, it is important to make clear that he/she is YOUR psychologist who will not be treating or seeing your W. Make it clear you are seeking a candid second opinion on what warning signs you are seeing -- because both you and your young son are adversely affected by the situation.

 

Note that I said this approach offers "your best chance" of obtaining a candid opinion (not a diagnosis). It is no guarantee of obtaining it, however. Your psychologist may mistakenly believe that you eventually will be bringing your W to him for treatment. Moreover, he may be concerned that you will reveal his suspicions to her during an argument and she, in turn, will tell her own psychologist. In that case, your psychologist could find out that one of his colleagues is angry with him for revealing information that should be withheld from the BPDer.

 

This withholding of information is no secret inside the psychiatric community. It has been discussed in academic articles for decades. See, e.g., the classic 1992 Dartmouth Medical School article at The Beginning of Wisdom Is Never Calling a Patient a Borderline. Twenty years later, a forum of resident doctors discusses this very same issue at Do You Tell Your Borderline Patients about Their Diagnosis?

 

Also see the 2015 Minnesota study, BPD: The Frequency of Disclosure and the Choice to Disclose. That study interviewed 170 licensed therapists, 74% of which are psychologists. It finds that only 30% of them say that they "always" tell BPDers their diagnosis -- and 31% say that they "usually" tell them.

 

Further, this reluctance to disclose is no secret to the family-law attorneys. One law firm, for example, explains on its website why there is little chance of being able to use a BPD diagnosis in divorce proceedings. It explains,

Often mental health care clinicians in completing their DSM list of differential diagnoses will 'defer' or simply leave an Axis II diagnostic impression blank, irrespective of whether a personality disorder exists....

many psychotherapists are loathe to list Axis II personality disorders.

See

Do You Know Someone Like This: The BPD?

[CnfsdTXDad1]

This is why I earlier suggested you see a psychologist for a visit or two all by yourself. Moreover, it is important to make clear that he/she is YOUR psychologist who will not be treating or seeing your W. Make it clear you are seeking a candid second opinion on what warning signs you are seeing -- because both you and your young son are adversely affected by the situation.

 

Note that I said this approach offers "your best chance" of obtaining a candid opinion (not a diagnosis). It is no guarantee of obtaining it, however. Your psychologist may mistakenly believe that you eventually will be bringing your W to him for treatment. Moreover, he may be concerned that you will reveal his suspicions to her during an argument and she, in turn, will tell her own psychologist. In that case, your psychologist could find out that one of his colleagues is angry with him for revealing information that should be withheld from the BPDer.

 

I have seen the therapist twice by myself. Next week will be the third visit alone. Then she sees my wife one more time alone and then we begin marriage counseling together to see where the chips fall. Honestly, I'm not hopeful, but I more so want a controlled forum where she has to hear about all of her destructive behaviors and how wrong they are. The therapist did obviously get on her for going to her family with our issues, as my W made reference to that the other day by saying 'I'm so alone. . .I don't have anybody to talk to.' I was trying to get her to talk with me, which she wouldn't and I was okay with that, so I asked why she didn't talk to her family. Her crying response shocked me: 'I've already allowed too many people into this marriage.' I air-fived the therapist for getting that through her thick skull. That alone has been so incredibly damaging.

 

Marriage counseling is going to be very, very tough. . .more so for her, as this will be the exact opposite scenario that she is used to (no control, can't yell, can't walk out).

[BluesPower]

I don't understand...

 

She is having an affair, and you know this, and you are still trying to save your marriage?

 

She has been abusive to you for YEARS, and you are trying to save the marriage.

 

You think she is not having an affair. Pick up the phone and ask for her password, see what happens. She will freak out...

 

Why are you even contemplating staying in this marriage. If you think you are in love with this one, wait until you find a woman that really loves you, and does not hate the sight of you.

 

You will not believe the things you wrote here about staying in this marriage.

 

Really buddy, it is time to let go and move on...

[CnfsdTXDad1]

I don't understand...

 

She is having an affair, and you know this, and you are still trying to save your marriage?

 

She has been abusive to you for YEARS, and you are trying to save the marriage.

 

You think she is not having an affair. Pick up the phone and ask for her password, see what happens. She will freak out...

 

Why are you even contemplating staying in this marriage. If you think you are in love with this one, wait until you find a woman that really loves you, and does not hate the sight of you.

 

You will not believe the things you wrote here about staying in this marriage.

 

Really buddy, it is time to let go and move on...

 

I'm trying because I want to be sure. I've misjudged in the past, and this is a marriage, not a relationship. I only wanted to do this once. Trust me: I know all too well of the heartbreak. The only times I've seen her not depressed lately is when she's seen me this week. It's the first light I've seen in her eyes this month. I honestly don't think she's having an affair. If I thought that, I'd be out. My intuitions have been spot-on in that area every time in the past with other relationships. I can not give up on her over a partial viewing of a receipt. In all honesty, I think the part I saw was that it had to be returned by a few days after I moved out, not purchased after I moved out.

 

I'm going into MC with eyes wide open, but I also have to go in with an open heart (which is going to get bludgeoned, I know).

 

I can hear it in her voice: she's just broken. She can't start talking for 30 seconds about us before she breaks into tears. She's been physically sick for the past week over this. If she were having an affair, she'd be much happier or at least more of a jerk. Plus, my son would make some kind of mention about it to me.

 

I have to see how this plays out. I told her tonight that we both have to air our grievances, and we might not get back together after. That's the reality. I'm not going to stay in a relationship for a child, as much as I absolutely love him. . .I can't do that to him, because that will do FAR more harm than good to/for him.

 

As to the abuse, it's not one-sided. Because of all of the crap I put up with, I started nit-picking or questioning things when it was completely unnecessary. I became highly emotional and would overreact to things (not anger, just hurt). This isn't completely one-sided, as an earlier poster suggested that I was making it sound very one-sided. It takes two to tango, and I've messed up plenty.

 

The biggest hurt for her has been when I've left before. What she still doesn't fathom, and I tried to subtly hint at to her tonight, was that I warned her (as I have for years) that if communication continued from her side with so much disrespect, sarcasm, and walking away, that I would leave. I have left and stayed at a hotel multiple times. She has forgotten about the warnings and just sees me leaving and abandoning her and our child. Very convenient to forget the warnings. I tried to work through it, but eventually I'm going to stand up and say eff this, I'm out.

 

But by no means am I a saint. This will get aired out in MC. But most importantly: her closet full of skeletons is going to come barreling out, and that's what I want and need for her to experience. There will be no family of hers in MC to tell her how great she is and what a (insert choice expletive, put-down, or slanderous remark here) I am. It will be an open, impartial forum.

 

It's not going to be fun. But it needs to happen.

 

Thank you all for all of your input and honesty. . .I truly appreciate all of it.

[Downtown]

The biggest hurt for her has been when I've left before.... I have left and stayed at a hotel multiple times.

TexasDad, if she exhibits strong BPD traits as you believe, walking away can feel like you're abandoning a sick child who desperately needs you. Moreover, BPDers typically exhibit a push-away/pull-back cycle of behavior. The result is that it is common for the abused partners of BPDers to attempt to leave many times. BPDer relationships are notorious for having multiple breakups.

 

A BPDfamily survey of about 460 such relationships found that nearly a fourth of them (23%) went through 10 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles BEFORE finally ending for good. About 40% of the BPDer relationships experienced at least six breakup/makeup cycles before ending. And 73% had three or more breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See "Results" at BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Poll.

[BaileyB]

Yes, I would file for divorce.

 

This sounds like a very unhealthy and unhappy relationship.

[usa1ah]

My wife and I have been married for over 5 years, but are now taking a break, courtesy of me moving out of the house and into a nearby apartment. I needed for her to realize that after all of the fighting, I was serious that I could not stay in a marriage/relationship like that.

 

Fast-forward to over a month now: she still has not said I love you, she still has not said I miss you, she has done next to nothing to try to get me back, except for talking to counselors. That's great, but does nothing for our marriage.

 

I feel like it's over, as she still gets angry through text (we don't talk on the phone), can't and won't talk with me, and I am just tired of being the nice guy that is getting treated like crap. This whole month I've been so nice to her ('you look beautiful' multiple times, 'I love you' multiple times, getting her cookies and a card, tons of sweet texts, etc.), with zero reciprocation. She also refuses to hug me and can barely look at me.

 

There has been no infidelity on my part whatsoever (I'm very old fashioned like that), but I just got so tired of the abuse (bashing me with her family, lying to me, etc.).

 

We both see the counselor one more time separately next week, and then we will start joint sessions.

 

I am so close to filing. . .should I?

 

First you have to move back into your house. Is it in both your names or just one of you?

 

See a lawyer and find out what your options are. Then file.

 

Read No More Mr Nice Guy.

 

If she is going to be civil with you after you moved out, then why should you have to be the one living in an apartment. If she wants space, tell her to get her own place.

 

Start respecting yourself and man up. Stop the love you crap because it will not work. Read about the 180 and do it. In other words turn your back on her.

 

You will not win her back by being nice.

 

Is she cheating? If so, do you even want her back?

[usa1ah]

File for joint custody of your four year old.

 

Talk to cps and let them know how violent she is and what she has been doing.

 

Get a lawyer and file before she can do anything against you. It would not surprise me if she went after you with false charges. It wouldn't be the first time a spouse had dine this.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

Yep, I'm filing. Weekend turned way worse than I could have ever imagined. Need to end back up on my feet. She turned out to be a horrible, horrible person. I wanted to believe in love, but Sam Kinison is screaming in my ear. Horrible turn of events. Thanks, guys, for all of the words of wisdom & support.

[healing light]

What happened over the weekend that finally convinced you that she is horrible?

 

I'm glad you're filing. This marriage sounds fairly abusive. From what you've said, she's toxic.

[Downtown]

Yep, I'm filing. Weekend turned way worse than I could have ever imagined.

TexasDad, that sounds like a wise choice. Toward that end, I offer several suggestions:

 

First, read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce will get very nasty very quickly.

 

Second, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful is the "Co-Parenting after the Split" board. If your W is a BPDer, she likely will be so vindictive that she will engage in parental alienation, trying to turn your sons against you.

 

Third, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Doing What's Best for the Kids and Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

 

Fourth, for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend an online blog by a psychiatric nurse. It provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at BPD on the Behavioral Unit. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with many BPDers for hours every work day.

 

Fifth, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. If you've been married to a BPDer for over five years, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article, Do You Love to be Needed? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

Sixth, if you believe your W has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer.

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us on this LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

[elaine567]

I drank a lot of bourbon (liquid courage) and started a fight. I didn't just start a fight. . .I became her on steroids.

 

I was cussing and yelling at her not more than 6 inches from her face (I'm 6'2" and she's 5'4").

She eventually just turned around and went back to bed. I wasn't very proud of my performance, but I needed her to see just how ugly that type of behavior is. The next day was New Year's Day, and I had a literal come to Jesus meeting with her: she changes, or I'm out. And it was good for about 4 months, and then it collapsed again.

 

This is toxic on both sides.

Your poor child.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

What happened over the weekend that finally convinced you that she is horrible?

 

I'm glad you're filing. This marriage sounds fairly abusive. From what you've said, she's toxic.

I found out some things that I didn't want to know. My heart is absolutely broken. I know now that she is just a horribly cruel person. This month apart, I have been so incredibly sweet and kind, and I thought she was starting to come around and be nice, but she wasn't. She has been saying awful, awful things about me.

 

The positive in all of this? My son. He only wants to be with me and doesn't want to stay over there. I don't blame him. He has a ton of fun and love with me and is surrounded by negativity over there.

 

I'm going to move forward and just focus on being the best Dad that I can be for my son, and to give myself time to heal my shattered heart.

 

Part of me wants to say 'I'm in disbelief', but the truth is that I'm not. She's been this way for a long time. I can't believe I stayed this long.

 

My heart aches for what this is going to do to my little boy. . .I feel so, so, so badly for what this is going to do to him.

[Downtown]

Yes, I feel sorry for your son too. If your STBXW is a BPDer, your 4 year old likely will be more emotionally mature than her within a year or two.

[CnfsdTXDad1]

TexasDad, that sounds like a wise choice. Toward that end, I offer several suggestions:

 

First, read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce will get very nasty very quickly.

 

Second, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The one that likely will be most helpful is the "Co-Parenting after the Split" board. If your W is a BPDer, she likely will be so vindictive that she will engage in parental alienation, trying to turn your sons against you.

 

Third, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Doing What's Best for the Kids and Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

 

Fourth, for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend an online blog by a psychiatric nurse. It provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at BPD on the Behavioral Unit. If you think you have it bad, remember that those psychiatric nurses have to deal with many BPDers for hours every work day.

 

Fifth, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. If you've been married to a BPDer for over five years, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article, Do You Love to be Needed? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the men we already are).

 

Sixth, if you believe your W has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer.

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us on this LoveShack forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers.

Thanks, Downtown. All I can do is just put one foot in front of the other at this point. I'll post more as events unfold, but I've got to shake this Stockholm Syndrome and do so quickly. She kept calling and texting last night asking what she did wrong, and for the first time, I didn't respond. I'm breaking free, one link of the chain at a time. The first order of business is to breakoff communications, as that is our last connection. She is back to texting coldly, which doesn't surprise me. I don't care anymore. She's going to be negative and backstabbing, and that is the polar opposite of me. I know she's going to want me back, and she could have had me. . .but not now.

[BluesPower]

I guess you don't want to say it out loud.

 

That is fine if you don't, but those of us that care would really like to understand "What you found out", besides her regular run of the mill emotional abuse, what exactly happened?

 

I have an idea but I would like to know.

 

You have in there you are starting to get there. And Stockholm syndrome is a perfect analogy for what you have been going through.

 

It is kind of funny when we realize what we have allow ourselves to be put through, you end up just shaking your head!!!!

[CnfsdTXDad1]

So I'm back, in the 7th layer of hell, and wondering wtf I am doing in this situation. The me of 10 years ago would probably smack me across the face and kick me in the bells for allowing myself to be put through this.

 

So, here's where we are. Since I am a gentleman, a hopeless romantic, and since I firmly believe in marital vows (my 1st, her 2nd), here is where we are (this is the part where you all start chuckling silently and pointing and thinking 'You IDIOT! Seriously?!!'): I have been making ALL of the effort to work things out: discussions, dates, massages, etc. (See, now you're getting the silently chuckling thing, aren't you) She has made ZERO efforts. We have been going to marriage counseling. . .well, one session and that night prompted her to blow up and do exactly what the therapist said not to do (walk away mid-discussion and not return), and we then didn't talk for 2 days. 2 days later she calls me and says 'Yeah, you should go to that Coldplay concert with a friend and enjoy some time away. I think we need some time apart.' In essence, she wanted me to eat $600 between the concert tickets (her birthday gift from before us separating) and the nice hotel.

 

Since then (last week), we basically just text, and 95% of that is about our son. We hooked up quite a bit over the weekend, but there is no sex talk like before (the playful kind) during the day, no attempts to kiss me, and no 'I love you' from her.

 

We have another marriage counseling session this Thursday, and I BET YOU MONEY that she tries to spend the night with me tomorrow night so that we can go into the session with the freshness of just having been together. She's the type of person that has to be close to people, so of course when we left the session last time, she had to hug the therapist (a female), and I was thinking 'You do realize how fake you look, right?'

 

I have been telling her for weeks that we need to divorce because she's done but just can't say it. I've been coaching her through it, and was even at my attorney's office, but she called and we talked, and she prevented me from filing (I had business appointments and didn't have the time to file). I told her that I will be filing next week.

 

I don't have time for her BS anymore. She still acts like she was in the right for saying such hateful things to her family (her family won't talk to me and now I'm not invited to family gatherings; her stepson left for college and she did nothing to try to repair the relationship before he left, etc.). On top of that, her level of anger and hostility is at an 11 on a scale of 1 to 10. I told her that's really abnormal, since we've had 3 months apart, so she obviously has not processed anything. I told her that she's always going to blame me, and there will never be enough punishment for me to endure in her eyes.

 

I just want out. I want to move on. I want to be in love. I want my son to see me happy. I REALLY want to buy a house so that I can get out of this God-forsaken apartment!

 

Sorry for venting, and for my absence. Please feel free to chime in, with whatever you feel like saying.

 

For reference, I am mid-40s, and this is the end of a 6 yr marriage, with one child from our marriage, and 1 child from her previous (he won't talk to me because of the things she told him the night I left - really horrible things). And she has badmouthed me to our 3 1/2 yr old son.

 

I'm done and want out. . .suggestions? Thoughts?

[BluesPower]

Yeah, I am chuckling...

 

But you understand that it is done now.

 

But really, just file and be done. Don't waste anymore time.

 

Life and time are precious so do waste it...

[Downtown]

TexasDad, thanks for returning to give us an update. Like Blues, I'm glad to hear that you are now ready to file and stop wasting time.

 

We have another marriage counseling session this Thursday.

MCs generally are very good at teaching basic communication skills. Yet, if your W is a BPDer as you suspect, a lack of communication is NOT her main problem. This is why, in BPDer relationships, going to a MC usually is a total waste of time until the BPDer has had years of intensive therapy to address the underlying issues.

 

I have been telling her for weeks that we need to divorce because she's done but just can't say it.... and she prevented me from filing.

There is a good reason, TexasDad, why the 2nd best-selling BPD book is titled, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! BPDers have such a weak and unstable self identity that they generally HATE to be alone. At the same time, however, that weak self image makes the BPDer feel suffocated and controlled whenever you draw close.

 

Although a BPDer craves intimacy like nearly everybody else, her ego is too weak for her to tolerate intimacy for very long. The result is that a BPDer typically goes through a repeating cycle of pushing you away and pulling you back. That is, you're damned when you draw close and damned when you move away.

 

This problem occurs due to the position of the BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means you are always in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

 

Hence, as you move close to a BPDer to comfort her and assure her of your love, you will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. And, sadly, there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering the two fears. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years searching for that Goldilocks position, which simply does not exist.

 

She has badmouthed me to our 3 1/2 yr old son.... Suggestions?

I suggest that, in addition to your psychologist and an excellent divorce attorney, you take advantage of the many resources I listed in post #42 above. The two that are likely to be most helpful are the book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist -- and the message board, "Co-Parenting after the Split."

 

If your W is a BPDer, the divorce likely will get very nasty very quickly -- and the co-parenting likely will be very difficult. She likely will be so vindictive that she will engage in parental alienation, trying to turn your two sons against you. Indeed, you report that the parental alienation has already begun. Also, it would be wise to start carrying a VAR in your shirt pocket whenever you have to be around her, e.g., to pick up your son. A voice recording may save you from being thrown into jail for 3 days on a bogus charge -- which is what happened to me.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Downtown