Coping plus Mental Illness

[Mumbles]

Her rapid speech and all about her, her, her, her seems to indicate she is either still in a manic episode or that she was just nervous and still wants to be done.

 

Still manic would be my guess. Me, me, me, its the fantasy world she's likely residing in at the moment. Likely not to stop until reality forces its way, unwanted, into the picture.

 

I have to ask this, its a bit personal but I wonder, how is she supporting herself? Financially? All this flitting about, indulging herself and all night partying ... who's paying for all this?

 

I only ask because my first wifes sister always ran into 'reality' when the money ran out and all those around her were done with her mooching off them in one way or another.... this is literally when we'd get the phone call at midnight (or later) and she'd be somewhere with no safe place to sleep and having not eaten for days.

 

Bipolars in a manic episode would find it extremely difficult, probably impossible, to hold down a regular job during these times - even at 'normal' times its a struggle, depending on the severity of their condition and whether they are on their meds or not.

[Guzzard]

Still manic would be my guess. Me, me, me, its the fantasy world she's likely residing in at the moment. Likely not to stop until reality forces its way, unwanted, into the picture.

 

I have to ask this, its a bit personal but I wonder, how is she supporting herself? Financially? All this flitting about, indulging herself and all night partying ... who's paying for all this?

 

Bipolars in a manic episode would find it extremely difficult, probably impossible, to hold down a regular job during these times - even at 'normal' times its a struggle, depending on the severity of their condition and whether they are on their meds or not.

 

She found a very low rent apartment. Actually quite impressively, it is in a decent neighborhood and the rent is incredibly low... $500 per month. It is very very small. I believe she had help with finding it.

 

She does hold down a decent job and she would have little problem living off it with that kind of rent if she leaves within her means.

 

I am aware she has run up her a few credit cards in her name. We talked about splitting our joint account early and she kept commenting how that would really help her, so I decided not to bring it up again and not split it yet.

 

How well she functions in this decent paying job is questionable. She was constantly concerned about losing the job and felt at times she was about to. Sometimes she was frantic that she would lose the job. I no longer know if that was reality or in her mind though.

 

The job is not very stressful most of the time but has periods of bigger stress. I can tell you that while she was with me, she spent most of her workday online browsing and only produced work when being called out on it basically. Right now would be an unstressfull time at work. Additionally, her CEO is aware of her mental health, aware of the divorce, and is likely to cut her a lot of slack. The type of work is one where people are often given 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances at success.... so its a job that would take a lot to actually get fired, I think.

[Mumbles]

I am aware she has run up her a few credit cards in her name. We talked about splitting our joint account early and she kept commenting how that would really help her, so I decided not to bring it up again and not split it yet

 

Your business is your business of course - I am very cautious of saying anything ... however, you're already in the process of divorce.

 

If I am interpreting the above correctly, you both still hold joint banking accounts? Or 'joint and several' credit cards?

 

If this is right, well, I know its tough to 'cut off' someone who was previously your most significant other, but it has to be done. You're already separated and living separate lives - divorce papers are working their way through the system. Banks and card companies don't and won't care about this though. Anything still in your name is ultimately your responsibility and they will pursue you if things go wrong, no matter the circumstances.

 

Additionally, I've seen this before, the running up of credit cards - first wifes sister would do this ... right now it might seem ok, but theres a pretty decent chance that the spend is outweighing the income and those chickens will come home to roost at some point and your 'joint' cards or accounts will, in a short period of time, quite possibly take an enormous hit ... a hit you might ultimately become responsible for.

[Guzzard]

Your business is your business of course - I am very cautious of saying anything ... however, you're already in the process of divorce.

 

If I am interpreting the above correctly, you both still hold joint banking accounts? Or 'joint and several' credit cards?

 

Her credit cards are only in her name. Mine are only in my name. We have one joint savings account.

[Mumbles]

We have one joint savings account.

 

Any money in there? If so ... well...be careful. Are dual signatures required to withdraw?

 

Assuming that you both contribued to whats in the savings you'll need to get the divorce court order to say who gets what (after negotiation), so get some advice on what to do here. I'd have thought that a hold could be put on that account until the divorce is finalised.

 

You can doubtless see the potential for problems here. Money spent is money spent, no-one but you will act on your behalf to recover monies taken from the joint account, so better to freeze it if possible.

[Guzzard]

Any money in there? If so ... well...be careful. Are dual signatures required to withdraw?

 

Assuming that you both contribued to whats in the savings you'll need to get the divorce court order to say who gets what (after negotiation), so get some advice on what to do here. I'd have thought that a hold could be put on that account until the divorce is finalised.

 

You can doubtless see the potential for problems here. Money spent is money spent, no-one but you will act on your behalf to recover monies taken from the joint account, so better to freeze it if possible.

 

I already had the majority of my money in separate accounts only in my name. This joint account we did both contribute to. We agreed on an appropriate split that I am comfortable with. I am being cautious with it and watching it closely, but at the same time, there isn't enough in there to for me to worry a lot. I was considering splitting it now, ahead of the actual court date, but as earnest as she was about that, I backed off. I guess if she does take it in the meantime, that will be telling, but also it won't really impact me.

[Guzzard]

Though not broke, I can see she is running low on money. Her credit card bill is higher, her cash is lower, and she wants to discuss splitting our joint account. Depending on how she uses it, either it will be gone instantly to pay the credit card down or she will burn through that quickly too. By my calculations, she spent about $12k-$14k in about 7 weeks.....this for someone that likes to live minimalistically.

[Chin Up]

Good god, what's she spent it on? Is it large purchases like furniture for her new place? Or partying and frivolous shopping? Definitely split the account.

 

I'm still in a joint account with ex too. I'm not concerned since he uses for online purchases cuz his credit shot, and ots a visa debit account, so he can only spend what he transfers to it. It's the only loose end left and I'd like to remove myself from the account, but I can't be bothered to chase him around about it, for now.

 

Oh, so the day after I was back to being chopped liver, he texts me later that night with a screens shot showing his call history. When we started seeing eachother we had a mutual friend that was constantly trying to split us up. We ended our friendship with her. So the screens shot shows she called him and he said "guess she found out we broke up lol"

 

Ok, that's enough. I told him I didn't appreciate the huggy kissy act then ignoring me, and then throwing this person in my face. Reiterated the conditions once and for all, go on meds/get off booze and drugs or go his own way. He feigned innocence saying he was just being friendly when he was here (yeah whatever) and sent screen shot cuz he thought I'd think it was funny. It's not.

 

He dodged the question and downplayed his actions. At that point I realized that even if he did get his act together, too much damage has been done and I'm fed up. Told him it's best if I just have movers send him the last of his things, to wherever he'd like. He said fine and that he'd send me his address next day cuz he was going to bed. That was a week ago. I don't understand the point of this.

 

Sorry for huge post. I get curious what your ex has been up to haha so I share what mines been doing cuz it goes beyond a normal breakup. The dust settles, then they pop up with some new kind of mess.

 

Have you thought of what you'll do if she drives her life into the ground and tries to come back?

[Guzzard]

Good god, what's she spent it on? Is it large purchases like furniture for her new place? Or partying and frivolous shopping? Definitely split the account.

 

I'm not really sure, she must have purchased a bed but said she doesn't have a couch or anything.

 

 

Ok, that's enough. I told him I didn't appreciate the huggy kissy act then ignoring me, and then throwing this person in my face. Reiterated the conditions once and for all, go on meds/get off booze and drugs or go his own way. He feigned innocence saying he was just being friendly when he was here (yeah whatever) and sent screen shot cuz he thought I'd think it was funny. It's not.

 

Yeah, the rollercoaster sucks. Its sad for me because my wife seems to recognize her pattern and said a few weeks ago that even if she came back that she'd run again anyway. I guess our marriage and myself aren't worth enough to get treatment and stabilze vs the feelings of mania.

 

Sorry for huge post. I get curious what your ex has been up to haha so I share what mines been doing cuz it goes beyond a normal breakup. The dust settles, then they pop up with some new kind of mess.

 

I've tried to avoid keeping track. At our last meeting a week ago she just repeated she was doing the same things as the time we talked 2 weeks before that.

 

Have you thought of what you'll do if she drives her life into the ground and tries to come back?

 

I might be surprised but I really don't think that will happen. She has stuck to her pattern like clockwork and returning has not been in her pattern. I am aware she returned for an ex once for sex, but that is out of the question with me. I guess once the divorce is final that is my end game. If she came back prior to that then there would be much to understand, discuss, get treated for before I'd entertain the idea. Saying that is easy, doing it, at least right now would be harder...but each day makes it more distant.

[Chin Up]

...but each day makes it more distant.

 

It really does. I catch myself trying to hang on by my fingernails to a sliver of hope, but deep down I know that too much damage has been done. I've decided to raise anchor and set sail, full steam ahead. I won't lie, there's times I miss him painfully and burst into tears, but there's no way I can go back to that kind of life. I used to think I was strong cuz I put up with so much of his crap, but I've realized true strength is knowing when to walk away.

 

I have his address. Movers are coming for the last of his things tomorrow afternoon, and that will be that. There is still the issue of the joint account, but I'll worry about that later on. For now I just want to focus on myself and a new life without him in it. Going NC after the movers leave, which will be easy cuz the only time we spoke/saw eachother was regarding his stuff.

 

I know it's the last thing you want, but I sincerely hope your ex loves you enough to stay away after all thats happened. You deserve better than this. You really do.

[Mumbles]

I guess our marriage and myself aren't worth enough to get treatment and stabilze vs the feelings of mania.

 

I've snipped this bit because I don't think it will help your mental state to be thinking along these lines.

 

Bi-polars are different from cluster-b's, but, during an episode, they are not thinking rationally. Think about that word for a moment. Its meaning in this context is really a collective, what "most" people probably think or their line of reasoning. Its not an absolute by any means.

 

Cluster-B's, generally, unless only very slightly affected, live constantly in a fantasy world, bipolars can too, but generally not, generally its during their manic phase that their thought processes veer off sharply from the 'norm'.

 

Don't fall into the trap of assuming that affected people are thinking 'rationally' (as most of us do, most of the time), and are simply making what you might consider bad choices. To do so assumes that they are rational normal thinking folks who are intentionally making bad choices that will knowingly adversely affect others. Its so often simply not the case.

 

Instead assume that your wife, soon to be ex, is making rational, logical decisions, inside her own disordered mind ... which, during an episode, is not at all aligned with the rest of us. This is fundamentally what makes a disorder a disorder.

 

Once you really truly come to grips with this your future course of action and the recovery process you must go through yourself, will become clearer and your feelings of betrayal will subside.

[Guzzard]

Instead assume that your wife, soon to be ex, is making rational, logical decisions, inside her own disordered mind ... which, during an episode, is not at all aligned with the rest of us. This is fundamentally what makes a disorder a disorder.

 

Once you really truly come to grips with this your future course of action and the recovery process you must go through yourself, will become clearer and your feelings of betrayal will subside.

 

Thanks! I needed that! It is easy in these situations to continue to have my own mind race between scenarios and try to reason it while losing sight of the underlying facts.

 

I feel most betrayed by my spouse's closest friends actually. They (at least spouse said so) were aware of her conditions and obsessiveness. I found out they encouraged her to make some big decisions which likely fed the mania and obsessiveness more... rather than at least suggest or bring up that perhaps making big decisions during mania isn't the wisest. One encouraged her to pursue another man while she was still in the marriage and another supported that the best time to make a big decision is in mania so if it ends up being a bad one, that at least you are still happy. Nice friends.

 

Your perspective and post is quite helpful and I appreciate it.

[preraph]

She feels she is not strong enough to take on others or other responsibilities, and she is probably 100% right. She will likely cope better on her own as long as she can work and support herself.

 

You are overthinking this and getting stuck in a rut trying to rationalize things. She is no longer wanting a relationship. It's that simple. She left you with the pets. I hope you're able to care for them. If not, please call a rescue place or call on friends to help you get them adopted out. Maybe you both just need to take care of yourselves right now and maybe the only person you need to deal with is a therapist to help you. Good luck.

[Guzzard]

She feels she is not strong enough to take on others or other responsibilities, and she is probably 100% right. She will likely cope better on her own as long as she can work and support herself.

 

You are overthinking this and getting stuck in a rut trying to rationalize things. She is no longer wanting a relationship. It's that simple. She left you with the pets. I hope you're able to care for them. If not, please call a rescue place or call on friends to help you get them adopted out. Maybe you both just need to take care of yourselves right now and maybe the only person you need to deal with is a therapist to help you. Good luck.

 

Yes, you are right. I get what you are saying and I appreciate it. I am improved but yes, I still get stuck once in a while. I am continuing to work on making myself 100% again and with a therapist.

 

I did know upfront responsibility was not a strong suit with her, but since our minds don't operate the same, I didn't understand that she sees some things as being responsibility where I didn't see them that way or thought she was doing them because she liked them.

 

You said, she said, others have said that yes, being in a relationship of any sort and even living with another person creates some inherent responsibilities and she is not able to deal with any such conditions right now. She just needs to be by herself and figure out her own path. (and so do I).

 

I am just a bit sad today as I work on boxing some stuff she left behind.

 

I found a number of packages she ordered over the past few years that the shipping boxes were never even opened and they were just stashed behind other stuff.

 

There were lots of projects she'd start and never finish and for the most part those weren't anything big, but we'd joke about that sometimes.

 

There were the bigger items that she started and that I suppose became a responsibility instead. For example, gardening. She really was exited about doing it and loved it at least a couple of years, but then she'd plant and never harvest.

 

To some degree, a few items like that make me a little mad because - like the garden - she would say she did it so we have fresh veggies and she thought I liked that. I would tell her not to do that for me, but do it for her enjoyment and if she doesn't enjoy it then stop, because I don't NEED those things.

 

There are other noticeable things then that come to mind of other things she did that in her mind were probably responsibilities FOR ME, that I would have said the same thing, don't do because you think I need or want that because I don't and only do it if you want to.

 

I know now all those examples are part of the condition and that our minds just weren't processing the same way.

 

I know this stuff might sound like self blaming too, but I'm really 95% past that now. Its more I am bummed that I wasn't more informed about the conditions sooner. I did the best I could with the tools I had at the time., I know that.

 

So I guess this post is really just a bummed out journal entry really.

 

Thanks to everyone here though for the support and information that is offered, I really appreciate letting some thoughts go sometimes and all the input.

[Mumbles]

I found a number of packages she ordered over the past few years that the shipping boxes were never even opened and they were just stashed behind other stuff.

 

My wife does this. I've come to the conclusion that the excitement is in the _buying_, not in the actual products themselves. She buys things all the time, often for me, even though I've told her on many many occasions that I don't want nor need any of them. Later I'll get blamed for her spending huge amounts of money on things 'for me'. Nowadays I just move on and don't engage in this type of conversation.

 

There were lots of projects she'd start and never finish and for the most part those weren't anything big, but we'd joke about that sometimes.

 

There were the bigger items that she started and that I suppose became a responsibility instead. For example, gardening. She really was exited about doing it and loved it at least a couple of years, but then she'd plant and never harvest.

 

Yep.

 

I've been down this road as well, with the garden and the pets. Both seem like such a good idea to her at the time. But I've declined on all counts - because the trouble is that there is no ongoing responsibility ... so those things will fall onto me and I don't want those responsibilities. I've had to create firm boundaries around the stuff she does - she does them, she takes responsibility, and if she can't, well, its for her to find the solution - I simply won't (and can't) engage.

 

She basically throws hand grenades and the mess created is left for others to clean up. I won't do it (now) and she at least has the presence of mind to know that I won't. Its not easy for me, as a white knight personality, but you have to remain firm.

[Guzzard]

My wife does this. I've come to the conclusion that the excitement is in the _buying_, not in the actual products themselves. She buys things all the time, often for me, even though I've told her on many many occasions that I don't want nor need any of them.

 

Yeah, I knew about some unopened packages, but didn't realize there were a bunch hidden. Her spending could be a problem a few times a year, but luckily not insurmountable and nowhere near as bad as many stories I've heard.

 

I've been down this road as well, with the garden and the pets. Both seem like such a good idea to her at the time. But I've declined on all counts - because the trouble is that there is no ongoing responsibility ... so those things will fall onto me and I don't want those responsibilities. I've had to create firm boundaries around the stuff she does - she does them, she takes responsibility, and if she can't, well, its for her to find the solution - I simply won't (and can't) engage.

 

She actually did very well with the pets...of course, until she left. The other items...yes, I didn't want things like the garden in the first place so I did not take it over...same with her other projects.

 

She basically throws hand grenades and the mess created is left for others to clean up. I won't do it (now) and she at least has the presence of mind to know that I won't. Its not easy for me, as a white knight personality, but you have to remain firm.

 

Yes, I had boundaries that I would not clean up her giant messes. It's another one of those things that had I been more informed about the illness, I would have addressed it though. When we originally married, I knew she was 'messy' and I wanted her to be comfortable moving into my house, so certain spaces were declared "her space" and whatever she did in those spaces I never touched. I see now though that what started as "messy" really exploded over the years and since I wasn't informed and not really paying a lot of attention to her spaces, I never addressed... hey, this isn't just about messy but rather this is a major problem... with her.

[Downtown]

So, I feel like I'm dealing with potentially a host of mental health issues.

Guzzard, if she's been diagnosed as exhibiting bipolar-1 disorder over the past year, as you indicate, there is an approximately 50% chance she also suffers from full-blown BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). That is the result of a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults. See Table 2 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

If you're interested, I describe the differences I've seen in the behaviors of bipolar-1 sufferers (e.g., my foster son) and BPD sufferers (e.g., my exW) at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. If those BPD symptoms sound very familiar, you will find a more complete description in my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs.

[Guzzard]

Thanks for the info Downtown. I am fascinated by the reading. There were two other disorders that I left out of my posting because she was said to exhibit some but not all of the traits. I'm not aware that was an official conclusive diagnosis though, so I wasn't comfortable putting them in my post. As I read more about those as well, I can't imagine the internal turmoil.

 

One trait I'd say she had very good control of though was the external anger. There was some, but nowhere near the level of other people's stories I read. Though I could tell sometimes she was holding/managing an anger outburst, it was really a very minor relationship impact....though by holding/managing it, it was probably more stress and pressure on her.

 

I am a very non-angry person just in general so that perhaps helped keeping outbursts to a minimum. Generally if someone is angry, as long as they aren't threatening to themselves or others and aren't damaging things, then I say go ahead and be angry and let it out, but I won't participate to make it worse.

[Guzzard]

Traded some emails with wife, the manipulation is now a lot more transparent to me, I reviewed some older ones and see the progression more clearly now.

 

Using leading questions in each on that build to her wanting something and trying to make sure that once the want is exposed that I have little time to answer.

 

Trying to drop breadcrumbs for me of what she is up and how she is doing then drop what she wants in the middle.

 

Playing dumb on the things I've asked her to do so I have to ask more than once and then she tries to make me feel like since she is now doing it for me that she should get the X that she wants in return.

 

Now its dangling a carrot... "let's meet for dinner" ... then some friendly words followed by... "and we can do" (what see wants) "before or after dinner"... and "let's do dinner real soon"... so she wants it soon I guess.

 

I know her mind is operating differently and I was probably taken by manipulations in the marriage because I though we were face value with each other, but makes me wonder how much manipulation there was ongoing. Makes you question if there is/was awareness and intentional manipulation or if it is just natural operating mode and is/was it part of episodes or just who she is even during stable times.

[Mumbles]

Now its dangling a carrot... "let's meet for dinner" ... then some friendly words followed by... "and we can do" (what see wants) "before or after dinner"... and "let's do dinner real soon"... so she wants it soon I guess.

 

I get a lot of this. Thankfully, now that I'm clued up, I know how to respond. Basically I don't do anything that I myself don't want to do.

 

If I was hit with the above, and I actually wanted to go to dinner then I'd go, but I'd tell my mrs that after dinner I'm going off to do something else (that I want to do). Essentially, I invite her to participate in things I am doing or want to do, but anything else I usually decline ... unless I have an honest to goodness interest myself.

 

 

I know her mind is operating differently and I was probably taken by manipulations in the marriage because I though we were face value with each other, but makes me wonder how much manipulation there was ongoing. Makes you question if there is/was awareness and intentional manipulation or if it is just natural operating mode and is/was it part of episodes or just who she is even during stable times.

 

I got taken for a complete ride in our early years - but no more.

 

On the last bit though, again, I would tend to not believe it was rational planned out manipulation - rather just her focused on herself and bending events to suit her own agenda ... one that seems natural and reasoned and reasonable to her. Don't beat yourself up, let those things go.

[Guzzard]

If I was hit with the above, and I actually wanted to go to dinner then I'd go, but I'd tell my mrs that after dinner I'm going off to do something else (that I want to do). Essentially, I invite her to participate in things I am doing or want to do, but anything else I usually decline ... unless I have an honest to goodness interest myself.

 

Good point, if she actually does ask, I will have to consider what my intent or expectation would be with accepting or declining. Right now I feel that declining is in my best interest. I'm getting better about having the thoughts and letting them pass and don't want to backslide right now.

 

On the last bit though, again, I would tend to not believe it was rational planned out manipulation - rather just her focused on herself and bending events to suit her own agenda ... one that seems natural and reasoned and reasonable to her. Don't beat yourself up, let those things go.

 

Thanks, yeah I've improved a bit where I didn't dwell on it. What she sees as rational right now are only things that pertain to her wants.

 

It did make me think also how exceptional at masking she was too. At home she'd be hunkered on the couch or floor in depression, yet crazy happy bubbly and charming out in public...only to collapse back on the floor at home after.

 

She told me that it took a tremendous amount of energy keep it together and mask at work and often times would have to 'hide' and cry for an extended period at work over nothing.

 

Sometimes she was apologetic that I see the other side so much and others don't. When more hypo/manic her mantra would always be that surface and stranger conversations are the best because noone knows what's behind the mask.

 

Hindsight is that in the last month before she left, she seemed to be masking at home too. Can't image the pressure of that. Certainly in the last week she was masking because I now recognize a few points where for a few minutes she let it drop, though at the time I didn't understand that concept.

 

Not beating myself up on that either, just a thought and letting it go.

[Guzzard]

There were two other disorders that I left out of my posting because she was said to exhibit some but not all of the traits.

 

So it turns out one of the two was dissociation non specific, but NOT dissociative identity disorder.

[Downtown]

So it turns out one of the two was dissociation non specific, but NOT dissociative identity disorder.

One of the 9 symptoms for BPD is "Having severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality." See 9 BPD Traits at NIMH. As I noted earlier, a person exhibiting bipolar in the past year has a 50% chance of also having co-occurring full-blown BPD.

[Guzzard]

One of the 9 symptoms for BPD is "Having severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality." See 9 BPD Traits at NIMH. As I noted earlier, a person exhibiting bipolar in the past year has a 50% chance of also having co-occurring full-blown BPD.

 

Thanks, BPD was suggested but I can't confirm it as an official diagnosis. She doesn't fit a couple of what I was under the impression where key criteria which is the rapid mood shifts triggered by ordinary events. Her mood shifts / episodes were usually prolonged and triggered by stress, higher level events, and shifted with the seasons.

 

Like clockwork, come spring there was hypo/mania and like clockwork mid to late fall there was depression. Previous years the length and intensity of each varied with periods of stable in between, but this past year the depression was worst ever... based on that and her actions, I equated that to mean mania was worst to date. Not sure what her next depressive cycle will look like.

 

Early spring was when her obsessions older men would start....every Feb/Mar....by mid to late May it was hypo/mania and usually when big impulsive decisions occurred....which happens to also align with our and past relationship endings. Over the years some may have been mixed episodes, I am not really sure.

 

Also, the anger/rage doesn't match well with BPD.

 

Not that I am diagnosing, but it was suggested by the psychiatrist that could be the case, but it was not confirmed because she stopped going.

[Guzzard]

Also with the dissocation non specific, she had the anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts that are also characteristic of bipolar, but also had issues with loss of identity (prominent), detachment from herself and surroundings (prominent), significant problems in relationships and work (prominent), hearing voices (present, frequency and intensity unconfirmed), presence or feeling of another person (unconfirmed).