Appeal To His Greed?

[OatsAndHall]

I have a long time friend who is having a rough time in his marriage. He has been blowing up my phone for several days now, looking for advice. Here's a bit of the background (bear in mind that this is HIS side of the story):

 

He and his wife have been together for nearly fifteen years now and have two young daughters together. He works as a traveling pharmaceutical rep and she is a nurse. He is angry and frustrated because she has only works part time and puts the girls in daycare on many of her days off. He has also stated that she doesn't do any cooking or cleaning on her days off and that he has to pick up the slack when he is home. His work keeps him away for a a day or two at a time and he says that the house is destroyed when he gets home. He has also stated that they're "just not getting along".

 

He has been talking about asking for a divorce and I have been telling him to seriously reconsider it. He's in a bad place emotionally with her and I feel he is being reactive. Some of his comments also make me think he has some delusions of grandeur about being a "bachelor".

 

I have asked him if they have actually talked about the situation as adults and he has told me that they "just fight about it". They are both exceptionally passive aggressive people, I've seen them bicker before and they just throw snarky remarks at one another until the other gets fed up and walks away.

 

I have been trying to appeal to the emotional side of his marriage. I suggested that they seek marriage counseling so they can sort some of this out. He isn't willing to do it as "therapists are quacks." I have told him that I don't think a dirty home and a "lazy wife" (his words) are grounds enough for a divorce especially given that they have been together for so long and have children. I asked him if all of these things are worth not seeing his children every day and he is under the impression that he will get custody because "she's a terrible mother". I have told him that I don't think he truly understands how emotionally devastating a divorce will be but he's only considering the green grass on the other side at this point. He's really only looking for validation from me and he isn't going to get it. BUT, he continues to text and call me..

 

I have bee debating about tapping out on this but I have known him for a long time and I'd hate to see him throw away his marriage without at least trying to fix it first. One thing he truly isn't considering (which shocks me) is the financial ruin that he is facing in this situation. He is a miserly SOB and I am tempted to drop some monetary reality on his lap to possibly get him to think about things. I know him and bringing money into the situation will wake him up a bit. Here is what will happen if he pushes for a divorce:

 

1. He will throw out an extraordinary amount of cash for a lawyer while she won't be out a dime. Her father is a multi millionaire that will pick up the tab for hers. He's always bailed her out in the past and I don't see him stopping now. She basically has unlimited financial resources when it comes to this divorce and she will win the financial war of attrition.

 

2. He won't get custody of the girls, period. He travels all week for work and she is a nurse who can set her own hours. He would have to give up his well-paying job (something he doesn't want to do) just to POSSIBLY have split custody. In all reality, she ends up with full custody and he will be paying a grand in child support per month.

 

3. We live in a state where property and debt are split right down the middle in divorces. It's cut and dry and in the law. So, they lose the home and he ends up with half of her debt as she's not very good with money and they have joint credit cards together. Again, she doesn't have to worry about any of this as her father is worth seven figures. She'll be back on her feet in no time.

 

I am hesitant to drop this on him as I don't want him to work on his marriage just to avoid getting destroyed financially. That's not a smart reason to stay in a marriage. However, he is a greedy guy so maybe these three simple facts will draw him back to reality.

 

At this point, I either tap out completely (I'm tempted as I have enough stress on my plate right now) or appeal to his greed. Thoughts?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Hiring a housekeeper for his "lazy" wife and letting her to continue to put the kids in daycare on her days off will be a heck of a lot cheaper then what he'd be facing in a divorce.

 

Also, even if her dad is wealthy, he STILL will be paying child support because she only works part time. Courts do not look at what the grandparents own, even if your friend would assume that he shouldn't have to pay child support because she has wealthy parents. (Been there!)

[BaileyB]

I think a cold, hard reality check would be appropriate if he is truly considering divorce.

[standtall]

Did your friend get married in a church or civil ceremony? What is his personal belief system? Ie...was he in the military..religious background, etc?

[Art_Critic]

At this point, I either tap out completely

 

This... just be his friend and not try to inject yourself in the destiny of their marriage.. no sense in possibly ruining a good friendship.

[mikeylo]

Just be there. If he discusses and asks for your opinion,only then bring up the facts without too much detail

[SoleMate]

Why not buy him 2 copies of His Needs, Her Needs by Willard Harley? I'd hate to see a friend consider a destructive divorce based on such flimsy grounds. She works part time and also take complete care of house and kids when he is travelling away from home. (Does she keep her hours part time so she can be sure to be there for the kids when he is away? Especially if his travel is unpredictable? I'll assume yes.) And the house is "destroyed" - which I assume means messy and no meal on the table - when he comes home. "All" his wife was doing was working part time as a nurse (which is a demanding yet well paid job) and being 100% responsible for kids and house and cars and pets.....while H is relaxing on his work trip with restaurant meals, hotel rooms, and rental car and some schmooze fest meetings. Actually, that's a LOT of contribution from the wife. Easily more than his.

 

If he wants to continue to be a father, he should take a long, hard look at what his wife is doing to make that possible for him. And start doing all the laundry for the whole family, plus ordering groceries and meals delivered while he's away, plus make sure to deep clean bathrooms and organize school clothes and supplies for the kids during his home time.

 

Assuming he even wants to save his marriage. He might actually just be looking for a plausible exit strategy, in which case any helpful divorce-busting advice from you will be even less welcome than usual.

[anika99]

He's an idiot if he thinks he's going to get full custody of the kids but he didn't believe what you had to say about that so its unlikely he'll believe anything you have to say about his possible financial ruin.

 

I often think that when a working spouse comes home to a non-working spouse or a part-time working spouse and the house is messy and/or dinner is not cooked the first conclusion they jump to is that the at home spouse just sat on their lazy ass all day. But with little kids the work and mess is just nonstop. Endless laundry, dishes, feeding, messes left by kids. While your cleaning one thing some new chore or mess is developing somewhere else in the house. If the non working spouse wants to take a break from their multitude of chores for a bit, just so they can actually enjoy their kids or take a breather then the mess gets even more out of hand. I know when I have my grandkids overnight by the time they leave I feel totally worn out from running around taking care of them, cleaning up after them, feeding them, having fun with them. Then they go home and I still have to spend 1/2 a day putting everything back in order even though I tried so hard to keep everything clean and orderly while they were here.

 

Sounds to me like your friend really just wants to be free of his family responsibilities and is grasping at straws to justify breaking up his home. I don't think he even cares if he gets custody of the kids, he just wants his freedom. If that's his mindset then there is little you can say to change his thinking.

[OatsAndHall]

He's an idiot if he thinks he's going to get full custody of the kids but he didn't believe what you had to say about that so its unlikely he'll believe anything you have to say about his possible financial ruin.

 

I often think that when a working spouse comes home to a non-working spouse or a part-time working spouse and the house is messy and/or dinner is not cooked the first conclusion they jump to is that the at home spouse just sat on their lazy ass all day. But with little kids the work and mess is just nonstop. Endless laundry, dishes, feeding, messes left by kids. While your cleaning one thing some new chore or mess is developing somewhere else in the house. If the non working spouse wants to take a break from their multitude of chores for a bit, just so they can actually enjoy their kids or take a breather then the mess gets even more out of hand. I know when I have my grandkids overnight by the time they leave I feel totally worn out from running around taking care of them, cleaning up after them, feeding them, having fun with them. Then they go home and I still have to spend 1/2 a day putting everything back in order even though I tried so hard to keep everything clean and orderly while they were here.

 

Sounds to me like your friend really just wants to be free of his family responsibilities and is grasping at straws to justify breaking up his home. I don't think he even cares if he gets custody of the kids, he just wants his freedom. If that's his mindset then there is little you can say to change his thinking.

 

His major issue with the whole situation isn't that she isn't working full time. It's that she is working part time (two days per week) and putting the girls in daycare when she's off of work.. So, she's not working or watching the kids. He has stated that she doesn't do anything with those days off. This is all his side of the story and I remaining objective about it. But, either way, these are issues that can be discussed with a counselor and potentially sorted out.

 

He does truly love his daughters and is a good father. But, he has decided that he can walk into court, claim she's a "terrible mother" for not working and putting them in daycare while she's off and walk out with custody. He is under the impression that he can have his cake and eat it too; he'll be a "free" bachelor/father which is a complete fantasy.

 

I just got home from fishing all morning and he has blown up my phone. I have a voice message from him and a five texts. Two of the texts mention "lawyering up" but I still don't have a clue what I am going to do. I know he has been contacting another close friend about all of this and I am hoping this other friend lays some hard truths on him.

 

I'm going to nap and enjoy my day.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Sounds like he might already have someone in his sights.

[dichotomy]

Appeal to his greed ?

 

Okay till him to play it cool until her rich Dad dies - and tell him he has to get her to "co-mingle" the money with him - from her inheritance. Although I suspect rich dad is smart enough for that and has set up a trust or advised her to keep it separate.

 

but if he has seen a good lawyer he will be told whats likely to happen - I suspect what you say will happen (custody, daddy support for lawyers, support, and worse). It would be cheaper to pay for a maid service as someone above mentioned.

 

People have all sorts of delusions about how amazing divorced life would be. I don't - and its a big part of the reasons I stay married.

Edited July 22, 2017 by dichotomy

[OatsAndHall]

I called him back about an hour ago with the intention of telling him that I was tapping out. But, he asked specifically about the cost of a lawyer straight off the bat:

 

Him: How much did you spend on your lawyer when you got divorced?

 

Me: I didn't spend a dime but she got one and spent three thousand. It was a waste of money given that it was uncontested and there weren't kids involved.

 

Him: What do you mean?

 

Me: We settled on everything in writing six months before the divorce went through. She could have gone down to legal aid and done all of it for free. But, she didn't.

 

Him: Really? She dropped three grand on a lawyer and got the house and everything.

 

Me: Yup. Like I said, I didn't contest anything.

 

Him: How much do you think a lawyer would run me if I got divorced?

 

Me: I don't really know, it depends on the situation. But, a guy I taught with spent nearly ten grand on his divorce because they couldn't settle on custody. And, he lost another five grand when they sold the house.

 

Him: Neither her or I can afford that!

 

Me: Dude, YOU can't afford it but her dad can..

 

Him: He wouldn't pay for her lawyer, no f-ing way.

 

Me: He's paid for everything else in her life; the down payment on your home, her college, your wedding and your honeymoon. You don't think he'll shell over the cash if you file for divorce?

 

Him: ****..

 

Me: Yeah, **** is right, buddy.

 

Him: What did you say about that friend with the house?

 

Me: He and his ex had just bought the house and hadn't built any equity. The judge told them to split it and they ended up owing the bank and the realtor ten grand so he paid five of it.

 

Him: Do you think the judge will make us sell the house? They didn't make you sell yours?

 

Me: This state is pretty straight forward when it comes to property in divorces; everything gets sold and all debt gets split down the middle. I let her keep the house, remember? You wouldn't owe money on it if you let her keep the house.

 

Him: Oh yeah, I forgot about that.. I don't think I want to let her keep the house though. So, divorces are more expensive when kids are involved?

 

Me: The house is your call but that will go before the judge too. Of course divorces with kids are more expensive, dude. More things to agree to means more lawyer time which means more money.

 

Him: Well, we wouldn't be in court long after I showed a judge how much we spent on daycare while so she could take five days off a week!

 

Me: Sorry, brother, but I'm not touching that one. But, just remember, she'll have the money to keep fighting it in court and you won't.

 

Him: Friggin' spoiled little daddy's girl!

 

Me: Alright, brass tacks here. You're pissed off and I get it. But, you really need to think all of this through. You guys have been together for a long time, you've got two great kids together and you've been building a life for fifteen years. Take a step back and think about how much stress this is going to be and how much you are putting at risk. You know my brother is a counselor and I can have him recommend a good couple's therapist for you. Just give it a shot and try to sort things out before you file for a divorce.

 

Him: F--k, I don't know man. I hate therapists, I just don't know if it'll do any good.

 

Me: It's your call and I'm here for you one way or another. But, again, I'd give it a shot and work through things.

 

Him: Thanks. I've got some stuff to think about.

 

Me: Anytime.

Edited July 23, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[standtall]

If he was married in a church or he was in the military, then perhaps you can appeal to his sense of honoring the promise he made to God, or honoring his oath and contract that he made with his wife in front of family and friends. Getting divorced because one is bored or annoyed is the sign of a weak person.

[S2B]

Sounds like he may have an OW.

 

She may have an OM.

 

I'd stay out of it.

 

If he has questions tell him to see an attorney. Stop answering his questions.

[OatsAndHall]

Well, I am pretty much done with the situation. He asked for the advice regarding a lawyer and I gave it to him. We'll see how he chooses to proceed given all of the information he has/will be getting from an attorney. He texted me last night and stated that he will be seeing a lawyer this week for more thorough legal advice. I wished him luck on it and told him to get a hold of me if he needs some to vent to. I won't be giving him anymore advice, even if he asks.

 

I did ask him if there was another woman in the picture and he denied it. But, I doubt he would divulge that information as he knows the kind of response he would get from me given my past and divorce. If there isn't, I get the feeling he has his eyes on someone else given how badly he wants this divorce. He's a bit taken aback by the advice he's getting from me and another close friend as he knows that we don't particularly care for his wife. We've said anything negative about her to him or been rude to her but we all keep our distance. We will hang out with him but we stopped spending time with them as a couple several years ago. He assumed we would all just jump on the "divorce her!!" bandwagon when he brought all of this up.

 

I know there are people that don't agree with my handling of this situation. However, I do think there are times in life when you need to give your friends some hard facts. Honestly, I would have gone through more of a nightmare roller coaster in my divorce if I didn't have a friend who was blunt with me. He knew I was considering reconciliation with her as I was not in a rational frame of mind. I had convinced myself that she wasn't screwing around and he snapped me back to reality in a hurry. And, he was right, her new/old boyfriend moved into the house three weeks before the divorce was finalized.

[BaileyB]

It's fair to give your friend some information, particularly when you have experienced a divorce and you have some experience to share.

 

You have done your duty as a friend. But at this point, you should definitely step back from the situation. Obviously, they must make the decisions about the future of their relationship.

[OatsAndHall]

It's fair to give your friend some information, particularly when you have experienced a divorce and you have some experience to share.

 

You have done your duty as a friend. But at this point, you should definitely step back from the situation. Obviously, they must make the decisions about the future of their relationship.

 

I agree. I know that these are his choices to make but I think he needed to better understand the consequences of those choices. Yes, it is always prudent to tell some one to seek legal advice from a lawyer. However, as most people who have been through a divorce know, those lawyers certainly tend to low-ball their overall billing.

 

I know my ex-wife didn't expect to shell out over $3k, simply to have a lawyer arrange and file some paperwork with the courts.. She was literally in court for fifteen minutes through the entire thing but ended up owing a substantial amount of money.

 

Staying married to avoid the cost of a divorce is obviously a bad idea. But being informed of that cost may have snapped him back to reality for a little bit. Unfortunately, I talked to him this afternoon and he is still leaning towards filing. I told him to get a hold of me whenever he needs to.

 

I won't be offering up any more advice.

[JuneL]

No offense, OP, but from this thread and your recent thread in which you recounted the experience of meddling with your female friend's dating life, do you think you are a bit too involved in other people's personal lives? I hope that, in this case, you're not going to contact his wife to talk her out of divorce; you know, it's their personal lives.

[Mumbles]

Assuming that whomever I'm speaking to is an adult I usually don't hold back, in cases like this I applaud the OP for laying it out there, as he sees it. I think it can be really helpful to broaden out the often narrow focus that others sometimes can get themselves into.

 

I always assume that the adult I'm speaking to can and will make their own decisions - I'm just a sounding board.

[S2B]

If you're not offering him any more advice/input...why tell him to keep calling you if he needs you?

 

If he's cheating - you may feel he's also been lying to you as his friend. Be prepared for that.

[OatsAndHall]

No offense, OP, but from this thread and your recent thread in which you recounted the experience of meddling with your female friend's dating life, do you think you are a bit too involved in other people's personal lives? I hope that, in this case, you're not going to contact his wife to talk her out of divorce; you know, it's their personal lives.

 

1. This wasn't meddling. This was giving advice when it was asked for and then removing myself from the situation. He has sought legal counsel and has brought it up with me twice and I have told him to heed the advice of his lawyer if he is truly planning on going through with this. Bear in mind I didn't reach out to him; he has sent me twenty plus texts and almost as many phone calls And NO, I have no intention of contacting his wife. I wouldn't even be involved in this situation if he hadn't asked for advice.

 

2. I admitted to meddling in my female friend's affairs and apologized to her about it. As I have posted repeatedly in that thread, I was being reactive as I didn't want to get her hurt. However, here's an interesting tid-bit that makes the situation a little more grey; his Facebook page states that he is "in a relationship" and there are dozen pictures of he and his "girlfriend" up. Two of the pictures were posted WHILE he was contacting my female friend. I hadn't realized all of this until I took a look at his page after he hit me up on Facebook to see if I wanted to meet up with him on my birthday next week (I won't be joining him). So my instincts were correct from the get go as he's doing what he calls "taming strange", a term he used many, many times a day when we worked together.

 

So, now how do YOU respond? A close friend of many years is chatting with a guy via OLD who I know uses women AND is posing as having a girlfriend. Do you keep her in the dark and hope she figures out sooner than later? Or do you insert yourself into the situation?

[JuneL]

I admitted to meddling in my female friend's affairs and apologized to her about it. As I have posted repeatedly in that thread, I was being reactive as I didn't want to get her hurt. However, here's an interesting tid-bit that makes the situation a little more grey; his Facebook page states that he is "in a relationship" and there are dozen pictures of he and his "girlfriend" up. Two of the pictures were posted WHILE he was contacting my female friend. I hadn't realized all of this until I took a look at his page after he hit me up on Facebook to see if I wanted to meet up with him on my birthday next week (I won't be joining him). So my instincts were correct from the get go as he's doing what he calls "taming strange", a term he used many, many times a day when we worked together.

 

So, now how do YOU respond? A close friend of many years is chatting with a guy via OLD who I know uses women AND is posing as having a girlfriend. Do you keep her in the dark and hope she figures out sooner than later? Or do you insert yourself into the situation?

 

I thought the situation is already a "done deal" since you contacted this guy. If you're asking me the hypothetical question of how I would respond if I saw his "in a relationship" fb status at the time my good female friend asked about the guy, I'd just let her know I just saw his "in a relationship" status on fb and leave it at that.

[OatsAndHall]

I thought the situation is already a "done deal" since you contacted this guy. If you're asking me the hypothetical question of how I would respond if I saw his "in a relationship" fb status at the time my good female friend asked about the guy, I'd just let her know I just saw his "in a relationship" status on fb and leave it at that.

 

Yup, it is a done deal. I haven't heard anything from her since our last conversation (check that thread). My question was hypothetical.