I want to be me again… Are all men like this?

[Vivir]

Hugs to you, SSE.

 

You are not alone. A LOT of people are feeling loneliness these days.

 

I am sad that you were advised to back away from this man and you did not back away. Fair enough. We all have to learn our own lessons. Sometimes, it is not enough for us to learn from the mistakes of others. In this respect, yes, this is your fault. Those red flags were waving and dripping red paint all over the ground there.. you saw it and still proceeded forward.

 

You ask if this man has any culpability, responsibility... accountability... sure, he does. If he were more aware and possessing some integrity, he would know with certainty that his actions impact upon other people and that would mean something to him. Instead, he lacks integrity. He doesn't seem to care about how his actions, words, behaviors impact upon others - even those he claims to love.. he DOES care, but only to the extent that it will negatively affect him if his wife were to discover this hidden thing he has been doing with you and to you.

 

But it is time to take the focus off of him. You need both of your hands and all of your faculties to put that focus onto YOU. You will need to heal yourself because of this ordeal AND because of your low self-esteem.

 

How do you think people heal themselves? In what ways might you begin to heal yourself? I used to be so upset when I came to this board and everyone was like, "The OW is NOT a victim!" I think some of those people were being mean, saying that we were volunteers in our own pain... and maybe they were right about some of us... but ... then I began to understand that a person who is not a victim has the POWER to STOP doing whatever it is he or she has been doing and do something else.

 

You can decide to do something else every single day. You can decide to think something else. Take a different action. Think a different thought. So... what are some things that you can think AND do that would benefit YOU or make you the best person you can be?

 

On top of that, you have never experienced romantic love. This thing you have experienced with this dangerous and opportunistic user is the antithesis of love. It may help you to define Love. What is love to you? How do you know if you're experiencing it? Have you ever felt it in your life? If not... I must recommend counseling (which is cliche and I hate recommending it for that reason, but you need more assistance than you can get on these boards...). If you have experienced any type of love, then compare that to this thing with this dangerous opportunistic user.

 

I also must add that people are people. All of us.. None of us have all the answers. We can only say what has worked for us or what has been better for us... this dangerous opportunistic user, too, is just a person. Your father and brother, just people. As an aside, I learned that it makes me feel better to make people uncomfortable who try to make me feel bad... I would look your brother directly in his eyes and ask him if it makes him feel better to gloat about his relationship, to make someone he supposedly cares for to feel bad about herself... does that make him feel superior? Why? Because his relationship status could change like the wind. Why does it make him feel better to make you feel bad? That is my point. Same goes for your father and for this dangerous opportunistic user.

 

The dangerous opportunistic user should be ghosted if you haven't ghosted him already. No goodbyes. A ghost. He doesn't deserve any part of you. Besides, he already got what he wanted (two years of your life, your love and effort, your body, your mind) when he did NOT deserve it, so he should get gone. No friendship. No acquaintance. Neither happiness nor anger. He doesn't deserve anything from you. I, too, would threaten to tell his wife or tell HR if he contacts again... say it once and only once. Then ACT. No idle threats, but promises. Make him uncomfortable. He has his wife and family. YOU NEED YOU.

 

He needs to go so you can heal yourself. Because your fear of not finding someone else WILL be made manifest if you do not heal yourself. Ask me how I know. As another poster wrote in another post, we are not writing these things for our benefit but for yours. We're sharing because WE KNOW what comes next. And if you DON'T put YOU first and foremost in your young life, you will lose not only these two years but possibly several more years. Time waits for no one. Do NOT waste anymore. You have work to do.

[FMW]

Clearly the MM is a repulsive creep, but sounds like your father and brother might have helped set the stage for you to think that might be normal.

 

Men who love you - father, brother, lover - want the very best for you and won't use language that tears you down and belittles you. They show you by word and action that you are cherished and important. I'm so sorry you have no examples of real men in your life.

 

Maybe counseling could help you learn to love yourself and expect and demand better.

[pepperbird]

op,

here's a piece of advice it took me a long time to learn.

 

 

Don't worry about what others do. You can't control that. What you can control is your own actions and choices. You sound like a smart, caring woman, and you can use those traits to your advantage. Being with this guy won;t do you any good, and n,most guys aren't like him.

[pepperbird]

I took another look at your posts op.

 

 

You definitely don't love him. you love who you have built him up to be.

[Veronica73]

This guy is a complete sleazebag. Block him and have nothing to do with him ever again. I think the only way that you’re “never going to have that special feeling with again” is if you keep him in your life. He is scum.

 

And you are so young. I didn’t get married until I was over 30, and we’d only been dating for a year and a half. Now I’m divorced. And am having no problem dating again. You’re going to be fine. But don’t waste anymore of your precious time on this douchbag. He’s disgusting.

[stillafool]

You're right, I get the difference.

 

Yep, I did know he had a girlfriend, no excuse there. I was curious. But when I didn't want anything more, all the bull**** came. Things like "I love you", "I want to marry you", "Don't leave me, you're the woman of my dreams". Really hard to say no then if you don't have any experience with these kind of games.

 

True, he's not the jerk that lied over his relationship status, but he's still the jerk that played with my feelings and lied to me to get what he wanted.

 

But you weren't innocent in your actions either. It's easier to accept what went wrong when we can see and acknowledge our own faults. It helps us not to make the same choices that will ultimately cause us pain in future relationships. We live and learn, hopefully.

[SouthernIslander]

Have your holes filled? Its unacceptable at any age but what 40 year old says that? You did right by telling him to mind his business. Even if you did not mean it, the more weakness you show..the more he is going to play on it and make it harder for you to let this go.

 

 

 

You father/brother are both wrong to shame you for being single. I really don't like when people do this because it encourages young women to make unhealthy decisions just to have a man. I was mid 30s when I got married and could have waited longer. LOL Now that I am hitting 40, there are quite a few of my friends who have happily never been married.

 

 

 

You have plenty of time so don't let anyone tell you any differently. Go enjoy your youth because it goes by fast and don't tell Dad/Brother your business anymore.

 

 

 

You seem like a sweet girl, so I really hope this works out for you.

[SSE]

Hi all,

 

It took me a while to reply. First of all, thanks to those who did. It means a lot to me knowing that I’m not alone in this mess and I will answer to your posts later. The reason it took me a while is that MM called the day after I posted my update. He said he had a question for me, but knows that he shouldn’t ask me. I demanded he did anyway. He would really like to meet me again. I told him that I would like to meet him again as well, but that I can’t handle the pain anymore. Told him that there are other women willing to be his f*ck buddy, but I’m not one of them as I already made clear when we started this thing. He got mad and told me he isn’t looking for a f*ck buddy (although he called me that in June). I asked why he does keep coming back if it’s not for sex? First, he didn’t want to answer that question, but after I pushed, he said: “It’s because I really like you and feel so good when I’m with you”. “Ditto”, I replied. But it’s too painful for me to get back on the affair train. He understood and said: “See you never again, girlie”.

 

I really needed and still need time to absorb that conversation. I just don’t understand him. In June, after I expressed in how much pain I’ve been, he pushed me away as far as possible. I needed to live my own life, search for a boyfriend and f*ck a lot of other men. And now, after three months of NC, he’s back telling me he really likes me and would like to see me again? Why the U-turn? I recognize the same pattern, but why do they do that? Telling me he really likes me… He sure had no problem staying away from me during the summer. Maybe now that school has started again, the routine kicks in, less sex, more nagging from his wife… I don’t know. I don’t know what to believe of the words he said. And I guess it doesn’t matter.

 

I know rationally I did the right thing for me, because like Vivir said, my fear of being alone will be manifested if I keep on doing this thing. Those words really resonated with me. But it doesn’t feel like I did the right thing. Knowing I will never hear or see him again is a very scary thought. I genuinely loved (and still love) him and now he is gone forever. Wow. Heavy.

[FMW]

He didn't make a U turn, he's simply using another tactic.

 

He's shown you what his liking and caring is all about. His definitions are not the same as yours.

 

Nothing has changed. If you stay in contact with him, much less actually meet up with him, you're just begging for more pain.

[SSE]

Finding my way,

 

I think you are right. Using some sweet words to check if I'm up to it again. Nothing more, nothing less I guess. It's not easy to see if you really like someone. Somewhere you're hoping they have changed.

 

I have no intention of staying in contact with him. He said he will not contact me again. He never said that before, so I tend to believe him.

[SSE]

@HiCrunchy, I’m almost 28 in the meantime  I was 25 when I made my first post. It’s not that I want to be married, but I would like to have a real boyfriend and a steady relationship. I never had that before. Thanks for your hugs.

 

@pepperbird, How do you know I don’t love him? I indeed never experienced real romantic love before and I’m sure it’s nothing like I’ve experienced with him, but from my point of view, I loved him. I listened to him, cared for him, I was intimate with him… Things you do for and with people you love.

 

@stillafool, You’re absolutely right. I know why I got myself in this mess. And this mess has to stop. I turned him down this week when he came back again. Didn’t think I could do that actually. Baby steps, I know, but huge to me.

[SSE]

@Vivir, Dear Vivir, thank you for taking the time to reply to my post.

 

I know. The advice on LS was correct, but I went ahead anyway. I really wanted to know what it was like to kiss a man, to have sex, to be desired. These were all new things for me. But so not worth it, looking back now.

I don’t know how to heal myself. After the break-up with her previous boyfriend, my friend started dating right after and within three months, she had another much better boyfriend and forgot all about the ex.

 

The ex treated her terribly, however it took her more than a year to end that relationship. She was worried she would never find anyone better. And now she’s happier than ever with the new guy. But my friend has no issues with self esteem. My friend looks great and gets a lot of attention from guys. She is also experienced. This isn’t the case for me. This method worked for her, but I don’t see this working for me.

 

I have no faith in myself and the future. This low self esteem and generally feeling not good enough comes from long way back. I got fat when I went to the university. My dad started making comments. I should be careful with my weight, because no man will ever want me. Because of my big butt, I should be aware that I can’t get a lawyer or a doctor. I should date in my own league. After I graduated, I went back home and the comments continued. It really messes with your self worth and your worth towards men. I decided to go to the gym and lost a lot of weight which my dad claims is his merit because he never stopped reminding me to do something about my fat belly. The comments are back now that I gained 30 pounds.

 

It’s not only the low self esteem, but also a fear of staying alone forever. While almost all of my friends got a boyfriend, I didn’t. I didn’t feel good enough for anyone actually, so I stayed in a lot during college. Now all of these friends are getting married and starting their families, and I have nothing of that. I missed the boat, or like my dad says, you’re the last one, as usual. I don’t know what to do, but the idea of never having my own family and being alone forever really scares me. I just don’t see it happening for me. It’s difficult to be happy for my friends although they are convinced I will have my own family someday. But I guess that’s what friends are supposed to say. Dating really scares me as well. I’ve never done it before. What if I’m indeed not good enough for any man? I don’t know how you can turn those thoughts off.

 

And then he came along. I know it wasn’t love from his side. Or at least not the love I wanted. I have not experienced romantic love, but I do know the love from my mother and best friends. They genuinely care for me, ask me how my day was, how my job interview went,… They just care. I also told him about the job interview, but he never asked about it. People who genuinely care and love you will not leave you alone for several weeks after you’ve been intimate… But it was so refreshing having a man interested in me. I knew this was not the ideal situation, but I thought he would divorce (like he always said).

 

And even after a while, when it became clear to me he wasn’t making any effort to leave, I still held on to him. It was so nice lying in his arms, cuddling, laughing that for a moment I forgot this whole mess. Until he went back home to another woman. Until you just can’t forget anymore. I loved the feeling he gave me and I think I love(d) him as well. I know I want to have that feeling again and it sure must be awesome to have that with someone who actually cares about you. But I don’t know if I ever will and the not knowing really frightens me.

 

He came back this week, wanting to meet again. I turned him down and he told me he won’t bother me again. I think he’s out of the picture for good now, and somewhere that makes me sad. And scared. What if he will be the only man I ever loved? I know all of this doesn’t sound healthy. I did make an appointment for IC, like you and my best friend suggested, but I honestly don’t know how that will help me. I never had IC before.

 

I didn’t read all of your posts Vivir, but how are you doing now after your affair? Do you feel better? Do you still think about him? Are you dating?

Edited October 31, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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[Miss Clavel]

You're right, I get the difference.

 

Yep, I did know he had a girlfriend, no excuse there. I was curious. But when I didn't want anything more, all the bull**** came. Things like "I love you", "I want to marry you", "Don't leave me, you're the woman of my dreams". Really hard to say no then if you don't have any experience with these kind of games.

 

True, he's not the jerk that lied over his relationship status, but he's still the jerk that played with my feelings and lied to me to get what he wanted.

 

 

 

he wants to f you and along the way he will. f up your entire life.

 

listen to the veteran OGs around here.

 

the pain. my god.

[Vivir]

Hi to you, SSE, and please forgive my late response to your latest posting. First, a warning! This post is long, like a letter! Sorry about that (I am long-winded)!!

 

To answer your questions… Most of the time, I feel better. My affair and all contact ended a little over a year ago. I do think about xMM, but the thoughts and feelings are A LOT less intense than they were even six months ago. I have really built my life around what makes me feel better, and he hasn’t been a part of my life in so long, I find that I think about him less now. I wasn’t dating, but I am talking with a couple of men who might be a little bit interested… they are on the periphery of my life for now.

 

Some thoughts I want to share with you:

 

You and your friend are not the same person. Your experiences in life are vastly different. You should not expect what works for her to work for you. Your self-esteem work and your healing from this disaster with the MM must be tailor-made just for you. Therefore, I suggested individual counseling (plus, you mentioned not knowing how to heal yourself). Even here, you may have to go through a few counselors before you find a comfortable fit. My skepticism about the efficiency and counselor bias, and having to spend money just to determine if a counselor was a good fit for me, stopped me from going to counseling on more than one occasion…

 

But I still researched therapists and made an appointment with one I thought would be a good fit for me, for issues I felt I had trouble getting past.

The dynamic between you and your father is incredibly unhealthy, but I am betting he thinks he is helping you. If you live with him, you’re living in a rather toxic environment. You’ll need to get out of it and control when you see him OR learn strategies that help you to become your own advocate and stand up to him. A good counselor would be able to advise you on strategies for dealing with him and other conflicts. You can also glean such strategies from self-help books, if you’re willing to read them.

 

I, too, didn’t know how to heal myself, but I had to do something…anything… In spite of fear, I had to do something, and so do you – especially if you want to move on and live your life without languishing over things you cannot control. Right off the top of my head, I will share with you some starting points.

 

Read The Serenity Prayer and really understand its meaning.

 

1. Do work to purge this MM from your system. Listen to breakup music (one of my favorites right now is Ane Brun’s The Light from One) and inspirational music (one of my all-time favorites is Donnie McClurkin’s Stand). Read breakup poetry and stories on LS. Read about coping. Go over to baggage reclaim and consider listening to the podcasts and reading the articles. She even has courses and free exercises for readers.

 

2. Personally, I knew nothing of self-esteem. So, instead, I started with self-compassion. I made decisions, dealt with conflict, you name it, based on how situations made me feel…

 

3. If I was confronted with something bad or negative and did not know how to respond, I would actually tell the person, “I feel some kind of way about that, but I am unable to respond to it right now…” THAT made me feel that I was standing up for myself in conflict situations…

 

4. Start a feelings journal. You can use it in any way you see fit. I have used mine to write down inspirational quotes, I have written multiple letters to xMM and my younger self, I have written down all sorts of ideas about what I want to do and where I want to go. I use markers and crayons and stickers, and when I have been angry, there has been a noticeable change in the neatness of what I have written.

 

5. Consider reading Nathaniel Branden’s How to Raise Your Self-Esteem.

 

6. Consider reading and undertaking the tasks in Dr. Schiraldi’s Self-Esteem Workbook.

 

7. You’ve done it before! Get thee to the gym – or get out in nature – and start with 30 minutes of daily exercise. I have been doing this, just walking around the neighborhood. And it has been so beautiful outdoors lately… this can raise your mood.

 

8. Fill up your day with things that YOU want to do… things that cater specifically to YOU. I literally filled my waking day with things I wanted to listen to and/or read. One of the very first things I did to move away from xMM was listen to audiobooks that made me visualize the stories in my mind… Right now, I am listening to the anthology Tales of Life and Death narrated by Cathy Dobson, since we are getting closer to Halloween. I am also listening to Emotional First Aid by Guy Winch.

 

Also… I treat myself how I would want a significant other to treat me. I take myself out on dates and I dress up for them. For instance, I study the menu for a restaurant I might want to check out. When I go, I force myself to sit at the bar. I eat there. I might read articles, but if someone talks to me, I talk back. I also go to movies alone, but earlier in the day… let’s say noon or 4pm. Last year, I went to a fundraiser by myself. It seemed that everyone was there with someone else… I battled inadequacy, but I went anyway. I forced myself to go anyway and take part in everything the event had to offer. Several people talked to me… and I mean, we had full conversations. I found out about *other* events just talking to them…

 

Always build your cache of talking points and ask people open-ended questions.

 

You won’t feel this way forever, SSE. It will take time. Be patient with yourself. Do the work in the meantime, and you will get past it AND feel better about YOU before too long. In addition, you will be better equipped to deal with other situations in Life as they present.

 

Hugs to you, SSE!

Edited October 3, 2018 by Vivir

[brokenandhopeless]

I am hanging onto every word of this Vivir, in this thread and your advice in my thread as well. Wow. Yup I am starting to do things alone (even though married and checked out). I go for lunches/brunches alone, read self-esteem articles, remind my rational brain to kick in when I get emotional and think of fantasies etc etc till i figure things out. Thank you for taking the time to write these out. Believe you me, you are helping a lot of us. Thank you!

[Vivir]

Broken, I am just glad to help anyone that I can reach. So thank you for reading my long-winded posts;)

 

Sometimes, we go through phases where we have to do things alone... it helps many of us to appreciate sharing our lives with others whenever they might happen to come along.

[SSE]

Hi Vivir,

 

You have no idea how much I appreciate your insights...

 

This has been a though week as I’m struggling with conflicting thoughts. On the one hand, I cry. I think of his family, wife and child, and perhaps another one on the way, and on the opposite site there’s me. All alone. It’s so unfair. I know I should have known better, but I think he knew very quickly that he wasn’t leaving. Why stringing me along? I always treated him kindly… I think his wife is better than me. That’s one of the reasons why he doesn’t want me. She is thin, has a lot of money and is very driven. I’m the opposite.

 

On the other hand I’m thinking of the good moments. I miss them. And I wonder how it would be in a real relationship with him. I know he treated me disrespectfully, but I think this will not be the case if I’m the girlfriend. Number one. Out in the open and not hidden. I cannot imagine he treats his wife the way he treated me. I think he’s not a bad person. My friend tells me she can’t imagine him acting different if I ever should become his number one. And she’s certain he would cheat on me and dump me for another woman. But, how can you know that? You just can’t, can you? I know I had to go NC because it became too painful. I was honest, told him I liked him as well but that it’s just too painful to meet again. I’m sure I won’t hear from him anymore as it is the first time I declined to see him and he said his goodbye which he has never done before. My friend however fears it might not be over. That I will hear from him again although he now claims otherwise. Sometimes I hope he realizes he misses me as well and wants me back. As number one… All these conflicting thoughts are very consuming. Is this normal?? Did you or anyone else also had them??? How did you end your affair?

 

And then there is the fear. The fear over never finding anyone else. The fear of never loving anybody like the way I loved him. The fear of staying alone forever. I know I mustn’t count on my brother after our parents are deceased. The fear of never having my own children… I was talking to a colleague last week, he’s 45 and single. Never been in a relationship before. He confided in me that he regretted not being proactive in dating. And that he’s lonely, especially now that the days are becoming shorter. And it just broke my heart, because I fear this will be my destiny as well. So I should start dating, or do something, and not lose any time, but I just can’t. I can’t. I’m stuck. And what if my efforts will not pay off? Then I will also be alone and with the pain of my failed attempts.. I fear I will never get out of this. This may sound dramatic, but I have zero experience whatsoever. These are very heavy thoughts to carry. How do you cope with them? I read somewhere you were also very scared of never finding anyone else. Are you also my age? Do you feel some pressure (children)? Do you see yourself in a relationship again?

 

I don’t want to be so sad and scared, but these are feelings I have. I just can't turn them of and it’s really wearing me down. I don’t know how to let go of those feelings…

 

PS How did you meet those men in the periphery? Just curious…

[Vivir]

SSE, the conflict you're feeling is normal. So many of us here have had these same questions that you have asked me. It will take time and patience and some determination on your part to get past those thoughts and feelings. You will have to decide, eventually, your own answers to many of your questions. I, too, and many others, have had to do this. When we don't know the answers, we have to decide them for ourselves. It is not likely to happen overnight. It takes time, patience, and determination.

 

I answered a lot of those questions negatively. That was one of the reasons I sought counseling. My answers were skewed, I thought, and I needed help getting out from under the weight of the negativity... like you.

 

Unlike you, I was never really interested in having children. So many other people in my life have children, and many of them struggle, so I help with their children when I can... I am older than you, and I still don't feel the desire to have a child. If I became pregnant, I would almost certainly have the baby, but planning for a child is not even near the list of things I have wanted to do in life. I may regret this later.

 

Experience or none, you won't meet people unless you get out there, SSE. You have to get out there!

 

I, too, felt that xMM's wife was better than me. She is far younger, more carefree apparently, effortlessly beautiful... still, her husband, after less than a year of marriage, thought it was OK to seek out and become inappropriate with another woman he liked... he had poor boundaries and wasn't appropriately protective of his relationship.

 

It is difficult for me to see her side because my relationship history, like yours, is almost non-existent. BUT I understand WHY I don't want my partner to have affections for another woman... I mean, can you imagine the lies he has told her and has to continue to tell her for the rest of their lives so she doesn't find out about his dalliance with you? Would you want to share your trust and finances with such a man if you didn't have to? Is LOVE really enough in this situation? What if he never intends to leave her because she has a lot of money? Can you imagine why he felt the need to seek outside attention? Why isn't his wife enough for him? What do you think made him think it was OK to do this even though he is married to the thin and wealthy wife?

 

I think you're right about the (x)MM in your life. He likely never had any intentions on leaving. You should assume this about ALL men who approach you if you find out they have a romantic partner. Be insulted by their approach. Tell them to move along. You don't need their brand of drama. Believe me, it is better to be single if this is the only option. You, like me, are not cut out to be the other woman.

 

P.S. - I don't meet a lot of people of either gender on a regular basis. The men in the periphery were there before, but I had never given them a chance to get to know me or vice versa... even when we meet potential partners, we still have to maintain a discerning eye

Edited October 8, 2018 by Vivir

[SSE]

But, I just don’t get it! All the flip-flopping. One time he told me that I should meet other men, he wouldn’t mind. Two weeks after that I saw him at a meeting and he was surprised I didn’t ran into his arms? Another time he said my father shouldn’t be worried, he would take good care of me, and that it was too bad we didn’t meet sooner. One week later he asked if I already met someone else? And now the last time: saying I should life my life without him, and definitely not wait because what if HE meets someone else? But he would be happy to fill my holes if needed... And then after 3 months of NC coming back wanting to meet again because he really likes me and feels so good when he’s with me? If you feel so good when you’re with me, how is it possible that you can say such things and don’t contact me for months??? Did you experience also these kinds of flip-flops? *sigh*

 

I think the only the reason he always came back was the sex. But even then, we didn’t meet often and I’m quite unexperienced. I cannot imagine the sex was that good for him. Or is sex, any kind of sex with another woman maybe enough? I think the only reason he always came back was the sex Vivir. If his thin and wealthy wife would give him more sex, I don’t think I would be "needed". This guy just has it all: wife, family and money. I have nothing of those things. He feels himself “the man” and sometimes made that also clear to me. “You don’t know what money is, because you earn so little”… I don’t know. I guess I try to find negative things he said and did to make me love him less. And then the doubt begins: “He didn’t mean it like that, I should have told him how I felt when he said those things, then he wouldn’t say them again”. That’s something I have learned from all this mess. Tell how you feel. In the beginning I didn’t dare to say how I felt because I was scared of losing him. But after a while some comments were really hurtful, and after I expressed that, he didn’t say them again. Maybe I should have said something sooner? Maybe now that I expressed my feelings, if he comes back, it will be as a divorced man?? Hope… it’s a b*tch. I just don’t know anymore, my head’s a mess!!!

 

Like you, I also answer these thoughts negatively. Did that change for you? How do you answer these questions now? Did you affair end in a similar way? Do you still think less of yourself compared to his wife? Sometimes i check her FB and I know for sure I would find it really hard finding out they had another child...

[Arris]

SSE, I'm a 46 year old man, married for now, really trying to save it but it's not looking good for me.

 

 

Please stop giving this guy any thought. The things you seem impressed by in his life, a skinny wife, money, whatever it may be, isn't worth anything.

Believe me, if he had it all he wouldn't give you the time of day. No offense, it's not you personally.

 

 

I had a 20 year old friend at work that was having an affair with someone that was engaged and was about 32 years old. I simply told her, if he wanted to be with you, he would be. I also said, the affair is not just on the married man, it's on you as well, you know better. Don't lose value in yourself.

 

 

Your curiosities are only an excuse, don't let that have control over you. Don't fantasize about what it could be, see the truth for what it is.

He is only interested in the affair, not you.

If you need more proof, tell him you're tired of waiting and plan to tell his wife so you guys can get the ball rolling. Just be in a safe spot when you tell him.

 

 

Understand also, experience is if you're doing it for a camera doing movies. If you are in love and having sex to make a connection, experience means nothing, it's something that comes natural as you grow with your partner. He is ruining you.

 

 

Please get away as far as you can from this guy.

While you're busy worrying about this person, you are missing great opportunities in meeting a sincere guy.

 

 

When you meet someone, he should be kind with no agenda, no secrets.

First, I think you need to understand your self worth.

Just because you never dated or met anyone, does not mean you are lacking. You matter just as much as the person you're interested in.

From there you both try to find that happy medium, if things are too far out of whack, it probably wasn't meant to be, move on.

 

 

Sounds like you had a long life of being alone, you can't just expect to catch up with the first guy that says nice things, you will get hurt.

Keep working on yourself, and know it may take time, it may take a number of dates and meeting different guys. Be you, you don't owe any of these guys anything. Don't let anyone pressure you, and don't try forcing things. If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't.

 

 

I'll tell you as a guy, if I really like a person, I'm not going to say anything remotely mean. I'm not going to leave your feelings hanging. When we get off work, I'll be rushing home to meet up. If I like you, I sure as heck don't want you messing around with other guys to gain experience.

 

 

Don't try to figure out what this guy is up to. He truly only wants one thing and he'll say or do whatever because he doesn't care about your feelings. He obviously doesn't care about his wifes or kids feelings either, yet there he is going on vacations with them, and going into bed with her every night.

 

 

I'm sorry if I seem harsh. You seem really nice and I love your innocence. Figure yourself out and take your time with guys. Date, get to know them, but also get to know yourself in the process. You really do matter and you want someone that feels the same as you do about them. Make sure they are honest and single first. Don't just accept everything they tell you, you need to set standards for yourself and boundaries, look it up on google. A guy should always be willing to make an impression for you. Of course, everyone is different so my perception on what to look for may be off, heck, I've been with the same girl since I was 17 and never had any interest in anyone else since, so I've got a lot to learn, but it'll be to my standards. I like being honest and I hate playing games. If that slows me down, so be it.

 

 

You are young, you have plenty of time to catch up, and when you meet the right guy, it'll be all that much better.

[Vivir]

SSE, it seems to me that you have already started answering questions for yourself. This should be expected, of course. The problem I found when I was where you are is that I was ultra-negative, as I mentioned previously. I have had to temper my internal negativity with more objectivity, because the negativity was further impacting my self-esteem and feelings of self-worth. Again, if you cannot seek individual counseling, consider working through The Self-Esteem Workbook by Dr. Schiraldi. Working on yourself will help to put the focus back on yourself.

 

One week later he asked if I already met someone else? And now the last time: saying I should life my life without him, and definitely not wait because what if HE meets someone else? But he would be happy to fill my holes if needed... And then after 3 months of NC coming back wanting to meet again because he really likes me and feels so good when heÂ’s with me? If you feel so good when youÂ’re with me, how is it possible that you can say such things and donÂ’t contact me for months??? Did you experience also these kinds of flip-flops?

 

This is ruminating.

If this man is still in your life (and I hope he is NOT), I would advise you not to answer his questions about who you might have met or are dating. He should not be privy to such information.

 

If he meets someone else...

---here we go again Another married person living by a single person's rules. In my personal experience, the xMM did talk in this way. I felt I had to remind him he was married... which was both terrifying and ridiculous.

 

The actions you mention at the end of the above paragraph is the nastiest part of the off/on, hot/cold, back-and-forth rollercoaster everyone talks about on LS. A lot of people may experience it, especially if they are in low contact (LC). I did experience this towards the end of the affair... I noticed that I was bringing up my annoyances with him almost every time we talked. I would tell him that we needed not to speak, and we went from speaking every day to him disappearing for weeks on end.

 

I have come to understand that when people disappear from your life, there is something going on with them. It usually has nothing whatsoever to do with you. And if they know that it hurts you, and they do it and keep doing it, then maybe that person doesn't need to be a part of your life...

 

But back to what I was writing: At first, I was beside myself and cried and cried and was despondent. When he returned, I was almost automatically better (LS community calls this the addiction). This happened between us maybe three or four times - where he would disappear for weeks. All happened in the second year of the affair, after his wife became much more suspicious and I began feeling more and more resentful of the situation. The more it happened, the more I began using the time to detach from him. The last time he did it, I did not respond when he came back. He actually ended it, because he would not leave his marriage. I simply pulled the trigger and removed myself from the equation, as I no longer accepted the terms of the painful arrangement. The affair was finally over for me, as he soon came to learn.

 

 

ThatÂ’s something I have learned from all this mess. Tell how you feel. In the beginning I didnÂ’t dare to say how I felt because I was scared of losing him. But after a while some comments were really hurtful, and after I expressed that, he didnÂ’t say them again. Maybe I should have said something sooner? Maybe now that I expressed my feelings, if he comes back, it will be as a divorced man?? HopeÂ… itÂ’s a b*tch. I just donÂ’t know anymore, my headÂ’s a mess!!!

 

Absolutely, SSE. You should say how you feel. Unfortunately, there are no do-overs. We can only take what we have learned so far and use it in the future.

 

As far as Hope is concerned, I had to actively dismantle the Hope I felt for this man. Every time it came up, I had to shoot it down in my mind: "Maybe he really does love me" for "Well, right now I am alone, and he is with her in their home, probably happy." Then "He showed up at my place and he calls A LOT, that means he misses me" for "He showed up at my place and he calls A LOT, he misses how I stroked his ego and/or his body... and after I did those things, he left me over and over to go back home to her...sometimes even when I cried for him to stay." I had to get real. And it hurt really bad.

 

Like you, I also answer these thoughts negatively. Did that change for you? How do you answer these questions now? Did you affair end in a similar way? Do you still think less of yourself compared to his wife?

 

SSE, I did change. For better and for worse. I am not as negative as I was, and when I am, I am self-aware and I fight to find an objective middle. I don't want to further harm myself by being negative internally.

 

Furthermore, I cannot be anyone else beside myself. I am sure his wife has many valuable qualities, otherwise, he wouldn't have married her. But I, too, am valuable... whether or not he or anyone else can see it or experience it.

 

And you are, too.

[Vivir]

By the way, I also think Arris provides some insightful advice from the male perspective.

[SSE]

Hi Vivir,

 

Every time when I post something in this thread, I’m looking forward to your reply. There is so much wisdom in your words. It’s different than telling this to a friend, because here, you and many others, really know what I mean.

 

The course of our affairs was quite similar. The first year we didn’t argue that much, although I expressed the difficulty of the situation for me. But I believed he would leave her. The second year I changed jobs and then I heard him a lot less (I met him at my previous job). He didn’t make much effort for me. There was more and more time between texts and dates. But he always came back. Which made me think (very naively) he must have feelings for me… Push and pull. He finally pushed me so far away last summer which caused me so much pain that I refused to meet him when he came back in September. I didn’t get an apology or explanation for all the things he had said. Pressing the reset button as if everything was like in the old days. Do they really don’t know that they treated us wrong or do they do this on purpose hoping we have forgotten everything so they can still get whatever they want from us??

 

He is not in my life anymore and I don’t think he will ever come back. I don’t want to meet him anymore knowing he will go back to her afterwards. I don’t want to not hear from him for several weeks after we’ve been intimate until he “needs” me again. Just like you I also used the time in between to slowly detach from him. And I keep repeating these thoughts when I hope he comes back. The only way I would accept him back in my life would be as a single man. And even then, I don’t know if I could ever forget the pain he put(s) me through. I think I would be anxious all the time. But I know that day will never come… I think he knows he can’t get any more sex from me. Would you take your xMM back if he showed up divorced?

 

I indeed started answering questions for myself and like you I answer them very negatively for me. But I don’t see any other way of answering them if the evidence is (now) so clear. It was all about the sex for him. And ego probably. The push and pull. Saying sweet words so I would meet him knowing I wouldn’t be able to resist him (because I love him). Texting with always sexual comments. Talking about how much money he has. He didn’t love me, he loved parts of my body. He loved what I did for/to him but I didn’t get much in return. He used me for sex and as an emotional tampon. Complaining how “bad” she treats him. He made me feel less because I don’t have a romantic partner, sexual experience and money. He often made “jokes” about it. I’m always into a good joke, but after a while it’s just not funny anymore. I guess this also has to do with my personality. My mother for example would have said that he could **** off when he made such “jokes”. She doesn’t understand why I endured that for so long… I endured it because there were also happy moments. Then I saw the man I loved. Just like in most affairs: extremely high highs and extremely low lows. My therapist disagrees. She says I cannot know what he felt, the only thing I do know for certain is that he chose her and his life with her. It could be possible that he loved me. But I find that very hard to believe. I know I wouldn’t treat a person I love like that. To him, to put it bluntly, I was just a hole that needed to be filled. I just cannot see it in another way. I don’t see any sign that would prove he loved me. Sometimes I wonder how they treat their wives. Do they get more respect and love? I cannot imagine him saying such “jokes” to her. I don’t know if they are a whole other person around their wives, but why treating us this way?? I hope I earned some more respect in his eyes because I turned him down… Sounds silly, huh. Wanting validation from someone who didn’t treat me respectfully. And still, I don’t find him a bad person. I don’t hate him. I don’t get myself.

 

I know I lack self esteem. I’m trying to work on that, but it isn’t that easy. For a very long period I got the message I wasn’t good enough for most men because I was fat. And this “romantic” experience didn’t improve my already low self image. I also gained weight again. And in contrast to 2 years ago, I don’t have the courage to do something about it. I just don’t have the courage to do anything at the moment. All I do is cry and eat, unfortunately. He is/was in my heart for 2 years. While in the meantime, my friends and family went on with their lives. Getting a new boy- or girlfriend, house, marriage and children. 2 years wasted and probably at least another year to heal from this experience and starting to love myself. If I will ever heal. Soon I will be 30 and everything in life has yet to begin for me. Most people must think something is wrong with me. A girl of 28 years old that still lives with her parents (financially it is the best option right now and I would be even more lonely sitting alone in an empty apartment) and never had a boyfriend? Not normal!! I mean, my MM assumed I should have found a new boyfriend during our summer NC. It is not that difficult, right?? … It seems as if everyone advances in life except me. I will have to learn how to date. That terrifies me. And how should I date? Online probably because all my friends are settled and don’t like going out anymore. I know I should do something to find a partner, he will not be knocking at my door. But what if after all my attempts no other man will be interested in me? Aren’t all the “good” guys taken yet? Should I settle so I wouldn’t be alone? Can I love another man like I loved him? I feel pressure and anxiety. I know I always say the same things, but I can’t help it. It’s just the way I feel. I would hate it also for example if my younger brother would have children before me. He always makes fun of my situation and it wouldn’t be fair. Just like MM doesn’t have any consequences and can go back to his perfect life. Sometimes I would like to expose him, but I know it wouldn’t make me feel better.

 

Vivir, I don't know what to do. I have never been so unhappy. Everyone says time will heal. But can/will I love again? I hope so, but I'm so afraid this will not be the case. I'm scared life is passing me by. Some people are happy singles, well, I'm not one of them. How do I cope with that nightmare scenario??? It could come true...

 

Thank you for the recommendation of that book. After a quick Google search, it seems a very helpful tool for people with low self esteem and I need all the help I can get. Thank you. Just thank you.

[SSE]

Hello Arris,

 

Thank you for your male point of view.

 

Indeed, as someone wants to be with you, they would be with you. However, I get that it is difficult to give up a marriage. And, if you don’t want to give up, that’s fine, but just tell me. Don’t feed me bull****. Don’t string me along just for sex. Don’t use me as plan B. I was very naïve, but always honest with him. I didn’t deserve this.

 

I think in his ideal world I would have a boyfriend but still go back to him when he needs sex, without the emotional attachment. Maybe he doesn’t have it all, but what’s lacking then? I think only some sex. They have a young child. When the child will get older, probably the sex will become more frequent again. And then I certainly wouldn’t be needed anymore… Or maybe as some variation. Who knows what's inside his mind?

 

Being #2 (or who knows #...) is a very painful situation. I remember one time that I wasn’t allowed to give him a kiss in public because he was scared that someone would see him. It also isn’t love. I remember one of our first dates he emotionally manipulated and pushed me for oral sex. “If you love me so much, prove it and give me a blow job”. And I did. I wasn’t ready for it, but I did it because I was scared of losing him. We already had several dates and I think it started to annoy him. And after that date, I didn’t even got a text afterwards... I know. But I was so happy there was someone in my life that I was blind for his actions. Never ever will I engage again with a person that is attached. It’s too painful.

 

I have always been single and he was indeed the first one that noticed me. I knew the situation wasn’t right, but he persisted and I caved. When you never experienced “love” before and someone offers it to you on a plate, with sweets words and promises, you just give in. Curiosity won from common sense. And I regret it now. He didn’t love me, but I loved him. Although he didn’t treated me the way it should be. He filled a void inside me which is now painfully present again. I don’t know what to do. Dating terrifies me. But I know I should do something because men won’t come knocking on my door. It doesn’t seem I have plenty of time if I look around me. Almost everyone is in a relationship, married and with children. I want that as well. I feel that I shouldn’t be wasting my time, but I just can’t. I’m not ready for someone else. This experience really ****ed me up.

 

What do you mean when you say you “love my innocence”? Or do you mean my naivety? I'm quite sure my MM found me naive, but I hope I'm not that girl anymore. I hope he realizes this as well by turning him down.

 

I read some of your threads and I see you’re struggling as well. I'm not an expert in relationships, so I can't advise you what to do.

 

Keep posting here, it seems to help me a lot. Take care.

[Vivir]

SSE, based on your response to me and to Arris, it seems to me that you have learned quite a bit from this experience. It also seems to me that you are, and will continue, using your knowledge as you move forward. This is improvement!

 

I know that you are still hurting. You are still ruminating. You are still trying to figure it all out in your head. Some of us can heal ourselves faster than others can (not me, not you, but some of us). Give yourself a break! Show some compassion for yourself. You realize you’ve been used for sex and ego strokes for two years by an unworthy user, a liar and cheater. That is incredibly painful, and you will need time and effort to heal. You may get stuck in your healing, but you’re unlikely to stay stuck. But you have to keep trying, SSE.

 

I hope that one day you will realize that some people need to feed off others to make themselves feel better. This is parasitic behavior. They will feed from the host until the host is no longer viable or no longer alive. In this scenario, you will have to *make peace* with what has happened, with how you feel, and with how you will move forward with this as part of your past. I have previously written in another post – and in previous threads – what I did to start this process.

 

Do they really don’t know that they treated us wrong or do they do this on purpose hoping we have forgotten everything so they can still get whatever they want from us??

 

You have accurately referred to this type of action as pressing the reset button. It means, ‘Hey, if you don’t remember, I am NOT going to remind you!’ It is also called “chancing one’s arm.” Hey, people are going to try you. A dear friend told me this almost 15 years ago, and I was so naïve and so unsophisticated (in dating) that it took me YEARS to realize what he meant…and to realize that he also meant to add “Your job is to recognize it and counter it.” He told me to trust NO ONE, not even him. People work to gain our trust, as we work to gain theirs.

 

The only way I would accept him back in my life would be as a single man. And even then, I don’t know if I could ever forget the pain he put(s) me through. I think I would be anxious all the time. But I know that day will never come… I think he knows he can’t get any more sex from me. Would you take your xMM back if he showed up divorced?

 

You will NOT forget this experience, SSE. You just won’t. I, too, feel that there is too much water under that bridge for me to take him back, even under the best circumstances. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t, but we would both have a lot of work to do if we were going to try to be together… Thinking that it is possible gives me Hope… and I need that like I need the plague.

 

Here at LS, the community talks about how married affair partners often leave their AP when they become single because the AP reminds them of their prior bad behavior and they want to move on… also, many times cheaters have an internal flaw or flaws and they carry that from one relationship to the next.

 

Like you, I deeply cared for xMM. I still care for him. I would not want anything terrible to befall him. I can vividly recall my attraction to him and how the world often fell away from me when he was in my presence. BUT I cannot care more for him than I care for me. I stopped allowing myself to do this, and I am better for it.

 

I indeed started answering questions for myself and like you I answer them very negatively for me. But I don’t see any other way of answering them if the evidence is (now) so clear….He made me feel less because I don’t have a romantic partner, sexual experience and money. He often made “jokes” about it. I’m always into a good joke, but after a while it’s just not funny anymore.

 

I have copied and pasted this from above, both to highlight and to reiterate! I hope that one day you will realize that some people need to feed off others to make themselves feel better. This is parasitic behavior. They will feed from the host until the host is no longer viable or no longer alive. In this scenario, you will have to *make peace* with what has happened, with how you feel, and with how you will move forward with this as part of your past. I have previously written in another post – and in previous threads – what I did to start this process.

 

NEVER laugh with someone who is making you the butt of the joke. If you were privy to his weaknesses and you made jokes about them, I am betting he would never think that it was funny. Not ever. He was showing his weakness by joking about your position. The nerve!

 

My therapist disagrees. She says I cannot know what he felt, the only thing I do know for certain is that he chose her and his life with her. It could be possible that he loved me. But I find that very hard to believe. I know I wouldn’t treat a person I love like that. To him, to put it bluntly, I was just a hole that needed to be filled. I just cannot see it in another way.

 

I agree with your therapist here, SSE. The only thing you can know for certain is what he has shown you by his actions. It could be possible that he loved you, but if that was so… his kind of love does not comport with your kind of love and it damages your well-being. So, his “love” in your case turned out to be quite worthless. I do not mean to be harsh, but I think you’re right. He did not love you. Based on his actions, he wasn’t knowledgeable about real love. So, perhaps, he couldn’t love you.

 

About you being a hole that needed to be filled… we cannot have power over people’s private thoughts. Just because he might think you’re a hole to be filled does not mean that you are. He treated you like you were a hole to be filled, and you let him…until you stopped.

 

You stopped, SSE. Come to terms with the fact that you allowed it to happen. Make peace with it. Resolve not to do it in the future (remember: there are no do-overs). But make peace. You do deserve peace and happiness within, whether you love another or not.

 

Sometimes I wonder how they treat their wives. Do they get more respect and love? I cannot imagine him saying such “jokes” to her. I don’t know if they are a whole other person around their wives, but why treating us this way?? I hope I earned some more respect in his eyes because I turned him down… Sounds silly, huh. Wanting validation from someone who didn’t treat me respectfully. And still, I don’t find him a bad person. I don’t hate him. I don’t get myself.

 

It doesn’t matter how he treats his wife or anyone else. It matters how he treated YOU. It is normal to want to tip the balance in your favor after an experience where you feel you have lost so much power. That is *normal*. But the respect you deserve is your own. The validation you need is your own. You should not hate him; you should pray for him. He needs it! Don’t beat yourself up for loving the unworthy, instead resolve to love the worthy in the future.

 

I also gained weight again. And in contrast to 2 years ago, I don’t have the courage to do something about it. I just don’t have the courage to do anything at the moment. All I do is cry and eat, unfortunately.

 

I don't know what to do. I have never been so unhappy. Everyone says time will heal. But can/will I love again? I hope so, but I'm so afraid this will not be the case. I'm scared life is passing me by. Some people are happy singles, well, I'm not one of them. How do I cope with that nightmare scenario??? It could come true...

 

The way you feel is normal. When we suffer from low self-esteem and we engage in an affair for a length of time, we WILL feel worse over time. We waste our time and energy, our love and affection. When it is over, we often lose the motivation to even try again. It is proven over and over again on this forum alone.

 

If you read in the news or listen to music or watch television or listen to people talk in real life, you may also find instances where affairs are present. Some people cannot cope, and they kill themselves or their loved ones. My cousin’s former sister-in-law was murdered by her MM. Apparently, he had left his wife, and the SIL told him that she didn’t want him either… she told him in person and in her home where her two young children were present. He murdered her and then killed himself.

 

Some people cannot cope, SSE. But you have to keep trying. The particular train of thought of forever being alone and never finding love is generally one in which we keep hidden, sometimes even from ourselves. Sometimes, it is an open secret. And you’re right: you could end up being single involuntarily for life. You may never love again. I have these same fears, too. The thing is, though, that if one thing is possible, then so is the antithesis. We just never know… so, in the meantime, we have to keep moving forward and trying to be as healthy as we can be – mentally, emotionally, physically. This way, we can be ready for and accepting of available men who cross our paths.