How to act

[amers53]

Hi, I'm new here, and in need of help. I'll try to keep the backstory as short as possible. Been married for almost 7 years, together for 10. I've been considering divorce for well...as long as we've been married, and had doubts even before we got married. But since our daughter came along (she's almost 3.5) my consideration has not really been if, but when.

 

I've been threatening divorce for years...not all the time, but when things got really bad. I've done it through letters, through tears, through screaming at him, through text messages, and serious conversations. Once our daughter was born, I made it clear to him that I would NOT put up with this forever. He's always held a full time job, and contributes financially, but in his mind that was enough. He never helped me around the house, never supported me emotionally with problems I was having, expected me to always help him with his problems, never helped with our daughter when she was a baby and just expected me to be wonder woman and do everything, even when I was working full time, and for a few years, in grad school as well.

 

He has also been verbally and physically abusive. It didn't happen ALL the time, but on and off for our entire marriage (and exhibited red flags that I ignored when we were dating) he's pushed me, punched my arm, threw things at me, etc. My threats to leave were always empty, because I knew I should, but I didn't want to. I kept hoping and praying for a change...and the change would come from time to time, but it would never last. Finally last summer after a fight, it was like a switch flipped in my brain, and I was done.

 

I no longer just knew I needed out, I wanted to be out. I craved freedom and just being alone and to be done with his bull****. I didn't say anything to him yet, because I was trying to figure everything out, getting my ducks in a row, etc. Apparently I wear my heart on my sleeve though, and one day he confronted me, asking if I was leaving him. I said yes. I was done. In fact, I had an appointment with my therapist the very next day, and after that I had planned on calling a lawyer. He begged, pleaded, cried, told me he loved me, swore he would do better, and volunteered to come to my therapy appointment the next day.

 

I didn't want to say ok, had it just been me, I would have stuck to my decision, but I thought maybe I owed it to my daughter to give him one final chance. For the last year, he has made huge improvements. He has been helping around the house way more, spending time with us as a family and has really bonded more with our daughter (she had almost no relationship with him prior to that). He did slip several times through out the last year which made me realize while he can change, it's never going to be permanent, so I still wanted a divorce. We've discussed it at least 3 or 4 times since last summer, all with him begging and crying and pleading for me to not give up. He claims he will never ever physically hurt me again, it's been at least 6 months since the last time and while that is a record for him, I can't say I would believe that under no circumstance for the next 50 years would he never touch me again.

 

But in the last several months, I've come to realize that despite any good changes and progress, I still think I want a divorce. I just don't think I have any love left for him. Ten years of being treated like absolute **** by the one person who is supposed to love you and support you more than anyone takes a toll. We're taking a family vacation in October, it's all booked so I don't think I want to take any legal action until after then, but in the meantime I can start preparing, visiting lawyers, etc. But I have no idea how to act around him now.

 

I don't want to say anything to him right now, since A. I am still not 100% certain of what I want and when I want things to happen, so I don't know how I can tell HIM what I want, B. I don't want to give him another opportunity to cry and plead and talk me out of it and C. I would be lying if I said I am not at least a little scared of how he may react when I say once and for all that we're done (which of course supports the idea that I do need to go).

 

When things are good, as they have been lately for the most part, I DO enjoy spending time with him, we DO laugh, and have fun together. But I feel nothing toward him, romantically. He feels like a friend at best, and a companion at worst. He tells me how much he loves me, he tells me all these sweet things, he says how I am his best friend, he hugs me, and I just feel dead to it all. I don't hate him, and despite everything, I never will. I just don't think I can stay married to him. I feel like if I act happy and things seem good and we have fun together, I am leading him on, and will just make him that much more distraught when I tell him again that I am done. But yet, I am not ready to tell him right now, and I don't want to fight about it every single day for the next few months. I just don't know how to behave around him that doesn't make my life miserable, or make me feel guilty as hell. Please help!

[Mrs. Miserable]

I've been in your shoes for many years. My husband has never abused me physically or mentally, but I can relate to all other issues. I have paid my retainer fee and signed papers to begin the divorce, but I haven't had him served. I'm waiting until

I can muster the nerve to tell him. For Real this time!!!

I have been planning this for ten years (married 26). The first thing I did was get my college education so I could support myself. I also saved as much cash back little by little so I would have immediate money available when needed. I was able to

Save enough to pay my retainer in cash. $3500

You should start a cash hole for the next couple of months. Go ahead and speak w an attorney to get info on things you need to do before breaking the news. I've been discussing w my attorney for a year now. Good luck to you.

[amers53]

Thanks Mrs. Miserable, it helps so much just to know that others know what I am feeling. Ugh, I hadn't even thought of the cost of a retainer. Wow, didn't know it was that much.

 

I hope you work up the nerve to tell him soon. Thanks for replying!

[PegNosePete]

Ugh, I hadn't even thought of the cost of a retainer. Wow, didn't know it was that much.

It very much depends, on many factors. My legal fees were less than £1000.

 

Many lawyers do a free initial consultation. You can get a lot of advice, hints and tips in that time. You should certainly discuss their fees during that time. Also payment terms, whether the fees can come from the settlement, whether the retainer can come from joint account, etc. In fact you should see several lawyers for a free initial consultation. Don't just pick one at random and go with them.

[amers53]

It very much depends, on many factors. My legal fees were less than £1000.

 

Many lawyers do a free initial consultation. You can get a lot of advice, hints and tips in that time. You should certainly discuss their fees during that time. Also payment terms, whether the fees can come from the settlement, whether the retainer can come from joint account, etc. In fact you should see several lawyers for a free initial consultation. Don't just pick one at random and go with them.

 

That's good to know. I actually just emailed a lawyer tonight. I had an appointment with her last month but canceled when I thought maybe he and I could make it work. I just emailed her to set up an appointment again. I have two others I found online that I plan to call at some point and go for a consultation. I'm a big believer in the "3 quote rule". Plus like you said, I'd like to meet with a few and see if there are any that I "click" with better than others. Thanks for your input!

[Mrs. Miserable]

That's correct. I met with two attorneys for free consultations. He/she can give you great initial advice during the consult.

[Downtown]

Amers, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., the verbal and physical abuse, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, self harming (head banging), lack of impulse control, black-white thinking, always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your H has full-blown BPD but, rather, that he may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

 

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your H's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for breast cancer and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a painful situation, e.g., taking your H back or running into the arms of another man just like him.

 

He has also been verbally and physically abusive.... he's pushed me, punched my arm, threw things at me.

"Intense, inappropriate anger" is one of the nine defining symptoms for BPD. If your H is a BPDer (i.e., has strong BPD traits), he carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there.

 

This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions. For these reasons, the physical abuse of a spouse or partner has been found to be strongly associated with BPD.

 

One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

He's purposefully banged his head against the wall because he is so upset. [8/23 post.]

"Self-harming behavior" is another one of the 9 defining symptoms for BPD behavior. See 9 BPD Traits at NIMH. Such behavior can include arm cutting, head banging (as you describe), or self hitting.

 

You think it's something wrong with you, something you're not doing right. [8/23 post.]

Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths. Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going crazy -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

I'm new here, and in need of help.... Please help!

Amers, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your daughter are dealing with. Even after the divorce is finalized, your daughter will be dealing with her father for many years. Moreover, if your H really does exhibit strong traits of a mental disorder, there is a small risk that she could inherit some aspects of it.

 

I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your H exhibits BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether he exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., he is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met him, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot -- especially after being married for seven years -- because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as physical abuse, lack of impulse control, head banging, and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

 

I therefore suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to discuss them with you. I also would be glad to suggest some professionally written articles (about leaving a BPDer) that are available online at no cost. Take care, Amers.

[amers53]

Downtown, I read the following symptoms of BPD and many of them sound very much like my husband

 

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

A pattern of intense and unstable relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often swinging from extreme closeness and love (idealization) to extreme dislike or anger (devaluation)

Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self

Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating

Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats or self-harming behavior, such as cutting

Intense and highly changeable moods, with each episode lasting from a few hours to a few days

Chronic feelings of emptiness

Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger

Having stress-related paranoid thoughts

Having severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality

 

The abandonment one is huge with him. If I get up to go to bed before he does, he'll ask why, in this almost child-like pathetic tone. When I say because it is late and I am tired, he responds with, "But I love you". As if me going to bed is abandoning him and means I do not love him. He often freaks out if I am not home when he wakes up (he works midnights) even if it is the day that I take our daughter to his parents house, which I do almost every single week...or ya know, am just out running errands or out to lunch or whatever.

 

He has a very strange relationship with his family. On the one hand his love and loyalty for them is so fierce I sometimes think he would really hurt someone if they hurt them (as we all imagine doing, but in those times I don't think it's just imagining) but yet he can almost never be bothered to pick up the phone to call and say hi, and if his mom calls him, he is almost always very annoyed by her call, or doesn't even answer. He'll sometimes go months without seeing them, despite our kid spending one day a week with them, and I am ALWAYS the one that drops her off and picks her up. I spend way more time with his parents than he does.

 

He has mentioned the feeling of emptiness...not those exact words, but he has said how unhappy he is. It seems more than, or different from depression. Most of the time (when he is not angry and yelling) he seems quite happy and even jolly. But he's unhappy, and he says it is not with me or our family. We have a nice home, a great family, he has a good job, we're all in good health...I know depression and mental illness unhappiness doesn't always have much to do with how much good is in your life, but I really don't know many other people in our circle who are quite as miserable and unhappy as he is. He often talks of "if only"...for a long time he had ****ty, go nowhere jobs that did not utilize him for the talent and skill he had, they didn't pay much and he was treated like ****. He bounced from one company to the next, receiving the same treatment at each one (all the same field, so treated as a peon grunt worker when he could have been much more). With each new job, he'd swear things would turn around and he'd be happy. If only he had a better job, if only he liked his job, if only he made more money. Well now he has a very good union job, great pay, and while it may not be the most interesting, stimulating job, the pay, security, and benefits surely must be a huge improvement over past jobs. But he hates working midnights, so now it's, "if only I could get off midnights". Happiness for him is perpetually just a little out of reach, and if only some other circumstance would arrive, suddenly all of his problems would go away.

 

I can identify with the other traits too, but those really stood out. I asked him about the feeling of being disassociated from his body, because never having gone through that, I really didn't understand it. He answered that yes, he has had that feeling. His exact answer was, actually some days, yes. When I went on to further explain why I was asking him, he got upset and freaked out that I was thinking he could have this disorder. At one point he got mad (we were on the phone, he was at work) and after quite a while, he backpedaled and said he had that feeling when doing certain drugs in his 20's (we're almost 40 now). IMO, his original answer did not sound like he was talking about having that feeling when he was high 15 years ago.

 

He has ADD so for a long time that explained some of his behavior but I was never totally convinced that was all it was. For some time now I've wondered if perhaps he was a narcissist, but that didn't always fit either. This fits better than anything I've ever wondered about. I do see a therapist, have been for years. He actually started out as my husband's therapist, we went together a few times, he stopped going so I went alone from then on. I will discuss this with him.

 

The articles about how to leave a BPDer would be great. Telling him I am leaving is one of my greatest stressors right now. I am unsure of how he will react and it consumes my thoughts at the moment. Thank you for your input.

[Downtown]

He got upset and freaked out that I was thinking he could have this disorder.

Amers, if he is a high functioning BPDer as you suspect, it generally is better to NOT tell him. If you keep mentioning it to him, he likely will project the accusation right back onto you (as he already does with most other things that go wrong). Because this projection will occur entirely at the subconscious level, he likely would be absolutely convinced that YOU are the BPDer.

 

I asked him about the feeling of being disassociated from his body, because never having gone through that, I really didn't understand it.

Actually, you have gone through dissociation many times a day -- at a mild level. These frequent mild experiences are daydreams, which give us an escape from boredom or stressful situations. Dissociation thus is something we all experience daily to some degree. It is any of a wide array of experiences from mild detachment from our immediate surroundings to a more severe detachment from our physical and emotional experience. The major characteristic of all dissociative phenomena involves a detachment from reality, not a loss of reality as would occur in psychosis.

 

A common experience of dissociation, for example, is the sudden realization -- while driving a car -- that you cannot recall seeing or doing anything for the past ten minutes, not even the three lighted intersections you had to have driven through. Another example is the time you walked to the kitchen for food but, on opening the refrigerator, you suddenly realize you have forgotten what you were looking for. In these instances, your conscious mind was daydreaming a thousand miles away -- while your subconscious mind was performing the task of driving you carefully through three intersections and walking you around furniture in the living room on your way to the kitchen.

 

He has ADD so for a long time that explained some of his behavior but I was never totally convinced that was all it was.

Adult ADHD is strongly associated with BPD. Indeed, some members of the psychiatric community suspect that adult ADHD may be a subset of BPD, not a distinct disorder. See, e.g., 2006 Study and 25% of BPDers Have ADHD. Similar studies are cited in BPD or ADHD? Most psychologists, however, view them as separate disorders even though they share several common symptoms (e.g., impulsivity and emotional dysregulation).

 

I've wondered if perhaps he was a narcissist, but that didn't always fit either.

Having BPD would not rule out narcissism. About half of male, full-blown BPDers also suffer from full-blown NPD. This is the finding of a recent American study of nearly 35,000 adults. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

I do see a therapist, have been for years. He actually started out as my husband's therapist, we went together a few times, he stopped going so I went alone from then on. I will discuss this with him.

If your therapist has not treated your H for years, he may be willing to speak candidly with you if he believes your H has strong BPD traits. Generally, however, I advise the abused spouses to seek an opinion from a psychologist who has never treated or seen the BPDer. The reason for doing so is that therapists usually withhold the diagnosis name from high functioning BPDers (and from their abused spouses). They do this to protect their sick client. If you're interested, I discuss the several reasons for this withholding at Loath to Diagnose.

 

The articles about how to leave a BPDer would be great.

Amers, I suggest you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. If your H is a BPDer, the divorce likely will get very nasty very quickly.

 

I also suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum focused on the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers a dozen separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the Co-parenting After the Split board, Relationship Ended--Breakup Crises board , and Family Law, Divorce, and Custody board. The Family Law board can only be seen if you register as a member.

 

While you are at BPDfamily.com, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. I especially recommend Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and the article, No Contact: The Right Way. Another good article is Pain of Breaking Up at the Psychology Today website.