Am I being selfish?

[Chardonnay Renée]

Sorry about the vague thread title - I wasn't sure how to caption my issue in a brief description.

 

I'd like the opinions of others, male and female perspectives, to help evaluate my own perspective in this small, albeit annoying, recent disagreement.

 

I'll try and be brief;

 

My issue: Like a lot of ladies, it's such a nice feeling going to bed and taking off my bra. It's an even nicer feeling when your SO gives you a nice back rub/scratch/massage.

 

The problem, and I suppose it's only a "problem" in certain contexts, is when my husband seemingly always expects sex afterwards.

 

My view is that sex shouldn't be something I have to partake in, if I don't want to, just because we've shared moments of physical affection, i.e. cuddling etc.

 

This morning my husband spooned me and I asked him to give me a back rub/scratch. I wasn't really feeling in the mood for sex, so when he asked I said just that.

 

He got a little snarky and said: "Well, WTF am I supposed to do with this, then" (referring to his erection). I offered to give him a "hand" and he said "I have my own hand if that was my preference."

 

I told him I feel bad but that I'm really not feeling up for it this morning and he just replied saying it was selfish to ask someone to partake in an activity that yields certain results that you're not willing to help resolve.

 

The thing is, it's not like we don't have sex. But I resent the notion that I am 100 percent obligated to service him, in the manner in which he desires, whenever his penis decides to erect itself.

 

We didn't end up having a fight, but he was a little huffy for the first hour of the morning, while I was left to feel guilty about it all. On top of that, I now have doubts about whether I'm being the selfish one.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Chardonnay Renée

[d0nnivain]

I wouldn't say selfish but since you know backrubs etc. excite him assume there will be a quid pro quo.

 

My EX & I used to have a deal. It was based on the idea that sex was like cold pizza: it was still good. So if there were times I wasn't in the mood, I'd tell him that but let him do what he wanted knowing I wasn't going to be the most enthusiastic participant. Most times I'd get into it but sometimes I'd just kind of lay there "and think of England." He was still happy & I didn't put in much effort when I didn't want to. It avoided the hurt feelings on both sides that you are experiencing.

[salparadise]

Well, you certainly aren't being generous! You asked for what you wanted, he obliged, and understandably became aroused believing the physical activity was the prelude to sexual intimacy. Then when he was all primed and ready you're like, nah, I don't think so... how would you feel if the roles were reversed? Why do you assume that his needs are less important as yours? What would it have cost you to follow through... and what do you get out of rejecting him that way?

 

My take is that you feel entitled to limit his access to sex, that your needs come first and his are less important, that it should be perfectly okay to ask and receive without reciprocity. Would it not bother you the rest of the day that you got him primed and left him high and dry?

 

It feels like a power/control/entitlement thing to me, and that you take some kind of pleasure in the denial and putting him in the position of having to beg for it.

[somanymistakes]

It's not horrible to be selfish once in a while. It's a little mean if you KNOW it's going to turn him on and you're not clear, though. Like, if you definitely know that you only want a backrub and no sex, and that he'll definitely want sex, it would be polite to let him know that when you ask for the backrub so he has the chance to say no.

[salparadise]

it would be polite to let him know that when you ask for the backrub so he has the chance to say no.

 

Or so that he can do the back rub without getting into that headspace and having all of the anticipation, only to end up experiencing rejection instead of intimacy.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a conscious motive, but there is something beneath the surface that makes you feel that he should passively accept it and not complain. From a man's perspective, it's a decidedly negative experience... not somewhat neutral as the woman might presume. This is in addition to the purely physical frustration of getting aroused and not allowed to finish.

 

Assuming the guy is a quick learner, what do you think his initial reaction might be the next time you ask for a back rub... there was a pretty smart guy named B. F. Skinner who came up with a theory called "operant conditioning." You might want to familiarize yourself with it.

 

Compare these scenarios...

When I was married, my ex-wife started turning me down more often than not, until it reached a point where we were only having sex once a month... a day or two before her period. She'd sort of make light of it knowing that she was controlling/limiting my access to the most fundamental activity a married couple engages in, and still getting her needs met as the hormones dictated. After awhile, and after acknowledging that she didn't give a sh*t about my needs, I cut her off. Phuk it. I wasn't going to allow her to emasculate me all month long and then be johnny on the spot when she wiggled her little finger. How do you think that turned out? Yea, she's an ex for a reason.

 

Contrast that with my most recent girlfriend... we were together a year and a half and I can't recall a single time that she turned me down for sex. If I woke up at 3am with a boner she'd be all over it. There were times that we'd have sex before we went to sleep, again in the middle of the night, and a couple more rounds in the morning. I'm sure there must've been times when she was a lot less into it than me, but she knew that rejecting me would change the dynamic that we loved so much... she used to say, "I love it when you just take what you want." And she did! Damn that felt good!

 

I believe that couples should accommodate each other sexually as much as possible, and as enthusiastically as possible. It just doesn't feel right emotionally to have your partner say they don't desire you sexually... for either gender. I know it can't literally be one-hundred percent, but ninety-nine is probably a reasonable target.

Edited August 6, 2017 by salparadise

[Els]

I don't think there's any "right" answer here, it just depends on what a particular couple needs.

 

In our relationship, there is NEVER an expectation that the other party must absolutely partake in sex if they don't feel like it. I don't think either of us could even be aroused if we knew the other party wasn't really feeling turned on at all and just doing it so we don't complain! It's just how we are. Ironically (or not, depending on how you see it), the result of this is that both of us almost never turn the other person down. I think it's about how the individuals involved perceive expectations - in our case sometimes we do it for the other party BECAUSE we know it isn't an expectation, because we know that if we said no they'd respect our feelings without a huffy fit. This instills a feeling of love and desire (as opposed to duty or "sigh I have to do this otherwise he'll be pissed off") and paradoxically leads to very few rejections and some pretty good sex, IMO.

 

That being said, I know couples who both expect that the other person will always "service" them whenever they want it. I personally can't ever wrap my mind around that, but if both people want that and it works for them, who am I to say it's wrong?

 

So I guess my point is that you two probably have to come to a compromise that works for both of you. Perhaps gently let him know that if he gets huffy whenever you aren't in the mood for sex, it makes you desire sex less. And if he listens to you and tries to compromise, you yourself can try and make it good for him by initiating more often, etc?

[sandylee1]

This is why I avoid requesting back rubs or foot massages (unless the kids are around) because I'll be expected to have sex.

 

Then be shown Mr erection and asked for a BJ if I decline sex.

 

Stop asking for the back rubs unless you're down for some more.

I get the sad sulky puppy eyes.

[Els]

This is why I avoid requesting back rubs or foot massages (unless the kids are around) because I'll be expected to have sex.

 

Then be shown Mr erection and asked for a BJ if I decline sex.

 

Stop asking for the back rubs unless you're down for some more.

I get the sad sulky puppy eyes.

 

This would be really sad, in my opinion. The average full-time working couple surely cannot afford the time to have sex more than 1-2 times a day on an everyday basis, unless they want to have REALLY quick quickies (in which case I would doubt if the woman got any satisfaction at all out of it). Does that mean that physical affection is only limited to 1-2 times a day in order to avoid "triggering" this?

 

Or does this only apply to back rubs/foot massages, but cuddling, spooning, holding each other etc is all okay? That might make more sense.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Elswyth

[mercy]

I'm pretty much submissive in the bedroom. It benefits both of us for me to give myself to him whether I'm in the mood or not, moods change quickly.

 

I don't want h to start his day feeling rejected.

 

Are you selfish? Only you can answer that.

 

One thing great about h is he knows I love to cuddle, in his chair, wherever and he knows it has nothing to do with sex.

[knabe]

I'm very high drive, but I'm not sure expecting all physical contact to lead to sex is healthy.

[Els]

I'm pretty much submissive in the bedroom. It benefits both of us for me to give myself to him whether I'm in the mood or not, moods change quickly.

 

I don't want h to start his day feeling rejected.

 

I'm probably overreacting to a pet peeve, but it REALLY bugs me when people use sexual submission in this context. Being a submissive in the bedroom does NOT mean that you should be expected to do things that you genuinely don't want to do just to avoid the other party getting upset, which is the situation the OP is describing.

 

Perhaps in a 24/7 M/s TPE relationship that would be different, but that is completely irrelevant to the OP's case - I am sure that she would have mentioned it if they were.

[Els]

Well, you certainly aren't being generous! You asked for what you wanted, he obliged, and understandably became aroused believing the physical activity was the prelude to sexual intimacy. Then when he was all primed and ready you're like, nah, I don't think so... how would you feel if the roles were reversed?

 

I have been in the reverse role plenty of times over the past several years.

 

My SO works long hours frequently. Sometimes he comes back from a 16 hour shift completely smashed. At those times, if I am available, I will give him a back rub or a massage, unasked, to help him relax for bed.

 

Am I horny some of those times? Sure! Do I insist that he "pay me back" for the back rub by having sex with me immediately after that? For chrissakes. Even if he tried to put himself up to it "for me", what would the point be? If you expect immediate "reward" from your partner every single time you do something nice for them, that doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship to me.

 

He does the same for me. THAT is my reward, not sex on demand. Taking a longer view of things often helps.

[mercy]

I'm probably overreacting to a pet peeve, but it REALLY bugs me when people use sexual submission in this context. Being a submissive in the bedroom does NOT mean that you should be expected to do things that you genuinely don't want to do just to avoid the other party getting upset, which is the situation the OP is describing.

 

Perhaps in a 24/7 M/s TPE relationship that would be different, but that is completely irrelevant to the OP's case - I am sure that she would have mentioned it if they were.

 

Yeah, it's just the word I chose to use I could have said, I give in easily.

[Gr8fuln2020]

Yeah, it's just the word I chose to use I could have said, I give in easily.

 

I don't believe my ex was 'submissive', but whenever I was aroused or physically affectionate (and aroused...it was easy to be with her;)), she always accepted. We both greatly valued and enjoyed our intimate times together, so we rarely rejected one another.

[BettyDraper]

I think that couples should be available to each other sexually. "I don't feel like it" is not an acceptable reason because being in a relationship is about compromise and putting your partner first sometimes. Unless there is a medical issue, there's no reason to turn down your partner if they want sex. Being available for sex is a form of being generous to your partner.

 

My husband has forsaken all others to be my life partner and since I'm his wife, I am supposed to take care of his sexual needs just as takes care of mine. Every husband or wife who is kind and loving deserves sexual satisfaction.

[salparadise]

Am I horny some of those times? Sure! Do I insist that he "pay me back" for the back rub by having sex with me immediately after that? For chrissakes. Even if he tried to put himself up to it "for me", what would the point be? If you expect immediate "reward" from your partner every single time you do something nice for them, that doesn't sound like a very healthy relationship to me.

 

Elswyth, I think you got it right in your first post in this thread. There is a lot of nuance to the giving/receiving in a healthy relationship, and if done well with two partners who each focus on the giving, and don't keep score on receiving, then it never really feels obligatory. It just feels like, "hey, I love my partner and I'm more than willing to give whatever I can to make him/her feel loved and cared for." When it's all flowing with positive feeling and positive regard, her desire is my motivation. I was lucky enough to have had that, it's a wonderful thing.

[Popsicle]

It's funny how men can easily separate love (feelings) from sex and do taught that fact, but can't seem to separate physical affection from sex. There is such a thing as non-sexual physical affection (touch, kissing, making out) and some of us women love that sort of thing.

 

I feel your pain.

[Chardonnay Renée]

This is why I avoid requesting back rubs or foot massages (unless the kids are around) because I'll be expected to have sex.

 

Then be shown Mr erection and asked for a BJ if I decline sex.

 

Stop asking for the back rubs unless you're down for some more.

I get the sad sulky puppy eyes.

 

I guess the lesson here is to not ask (for back rubs) as refusal (of sex) may offend.

[Chardonnay Renée]

I think that couples should be available to each other sexually. "I don't feel like it" is not an acceptable reason because being in a relationship is about compromise and putting your partner first sometimes. Unless there is a medical issue, there's no reason to turn down your partner if they want sex. Being available for sex is a form of being generous to your partner.

 

My husband has forsaken all others to be my life partner and since I'm his wife, I am supposed to take care of his sexual needs just as takes care of mine. Every husband or wife who is kind and loving deserves sexual satisfaction.

 

It's not like we don't have sex. I'd say it's increased to around an average of one to two times a week since having the twins thirteen months ago.

 

Sure, the frequency before kids was higher, but perhaps more like every second day. I don't think these numbers are abnormally low for our circumstances.

 

The thing is, if I were to "take care of his needs" - I'd have to be up at the crack of dawn to give him a BJ and be ready and willing to be a vixen at night, every night!

 

I'm not sure the balance is right if I have to do that. Where does one draw the line? Surely I can ask for a back rub and receive one independent to having to sort out his end on every, single occasion?

[kgcolonel]

Chard, how would you have felt had he responded to your request for a back rub or back scratch as 'I'm really not in the mood"? Maybe not angry but somewhat rejected? Different people react to rejection in different ways....

[BettyDraper]

It's not like we don't have sex. I'd say it's increased to around an average of one to two times a week since having the twins thirteen months ago.

 

Sure, the frequency before kids was higher, but perhaps more like every second day. I don't think these numbers are abnormally low for our circumstances.

 

The thing is, if I were to "take care of his needs" - I'd have to be up at the crack of dawn to give him a BJ and be ready and willing to be a vixen at night, every night!

 

I'm not sure the balance is right if I have to do that. Where does one draw the line? Surely I can ask for a back rub and receive one independent to having to sort out his end on every, single occasion?

 

I know you and your husband have sex because you've mentioned it before. It's quite common for couples to have less sex when babies arrive. Sex once a week is the average for married couples.

 

Even though it's not realistic to have sex with your husband every night and give him a BJ every morning, you could certainly try to be a bit more mindful of his sexual needs. Surely there is a middle ground between sex once a week and sex every day? I would deeply resent my husband if he refused to have sex with me just because he didn't "feel like it" especially if he knew that I was very aroused. It's just not a nice way to treat your partner. I mean, I'm sure that your husband does many things for you that he may not feel like doing.

 

You've shared that your husband is a handsome, wealthy, arrogant and charismatic man. Men with those particular characteristics are exactly the types who tend to be unfaithful because they feel entitled to it. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen in your marriage, CR. It could be helpful to be aware of the risks you're taking when you focus on sexual scorekeeping. Sex shouldn't be a line that you draw.

[QuietDan]

So it begins, sex, power, control, weaponized intimacy, sexual rejection, the relationship starts to drift apart, feelings are hurt, lovers turn into roomates and or brothers, placed neatly in the friend box and ignore. The husband gives up pursuing, turns to work and hobbies. Another man expresses sexual interest, is naughty, doesn't accept rejection, relentlessly sexually pursues for a week or two, temptation sets in, the affair begins, suddenly the other man is the best sex ever, 3, 4, or more times a day and you can't get enough of the taboo sex, nothing is off the table...

Yah... It is more than a stretch... Seems like an extreme conjecture...

Yet, your attitude and this particular problem seems to be a consistent starting point for many.

[Bastile]

I don't think it's selfish. I think it's likely some bad habits forming. Perhaps a sexual routine, and he might feel you aren't living up to your end. It's negotiating sex (which doesn't work so well).

 

I think it's better when you fool around just for fun. Girl is at the sink washing up, go over and tease her. Slap her arse, or put your arms around her waist and talk dirty in her ear.

 

Sitting watching a film, kiss her cheek and neck.

 

Don't have to escalate beyond that. But it means sex isn't something where you go from cold to hot.

 

If intimacy only happens in a certain place (the bed), and only happens each time any intimacy is shared, then he's obviously going to think that being in bed and touching is his sexual window.

 

And although I don't necessarily agree with the vehement tone of Salpardise's posts in this thread, it does seem that you are doling out portions of sex to him, like a kid getting an ice-cream scoop.

[S2B]

It's not like we don't have sex. I'd say it's increased to around an average of one to two times a week since having the twins thirteen months ago.

 

Sure, the frequency before kids was higher, but perhaps more like every second day. I don't think these numbers are abnormally low for our circumstances.

 

The thing is, if I were to "take care of his needs" - I'd have to be up at the crack of dawn to give him a BJ and be ready and willing to be a vixen at night, every night!

 

I'm not sure the balance is right if I have to do that. Where does one draw the line? Surely I can ask for a back rub and receive one independent to having to sort out his end on every, single occasion?

 

Well sure...

 

And expect him to tell you no when you ask for a back rub.

 

 

Or hire a massage therapist to come to the house once a week.

 

Seriously, he will say no now.

[LivingWaterPlease]

You've shared that your husband is a handsome, wealthy, arrogant and charismatic man. Men with those particular characteristics are exactly the types who tend to be unfaithful because they feel entitled to it. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen in your marriage, CR. It could be helpful to be aware of the risks you're taking when you focus on sexual scorekeeping. Sex shouldn't be a line that you draw.

 

^^^^^

This

 

I know everyone is different but it's hard for me to understand why such a generous and loving gift as that of a backrub wouldn't naturally lead you to want to reciprocate the love shown.