Am I being selfish?

[Els]

Sure, you can see it as decidedly wrong for the husband to have any expectation if that's the way your bias leans. I'm not surprised that opinions seem to be divided mostly along gender lines on the question of who has the right by default to control sexual frequency in a marriage. Some women see this as the sole source of their feminine power, along with having an ongoing need a need to leverage it.

 

I think you are extrapolating. The only person who keeps bringing up power and control is you.

 

Maybe in YOUR head you associate sex and consent with power and control. Trust me, that isn't the case for most people (even if they enjoy bedroom play involving that). On the rare occasions that my SO isn't able to have sex, I don't think "OMG what an *******, he's trying to control sexual frequency in our relationship, trying to leverage power over me by doing that, what a douche!". Nor would most normal and healthy people of any gender, from my experience.

[salparadise]

I do not think there is anything wrong to ask for physical affection without the obligation for sex.

 

I'm happy to do something for you tomorrow morning/afternoon/night to return the favor...

 

You see, these words reveal something important about the female perspective.

 

I think you are extrapolating. The only person who keeps bringing up power and control is you.

 

Maybe in YOUR head you associate sex and consent with power and control. Trust me, that isn't the case for most people (even if they enjoy bedroom play involving that). On the rare occasions that my SO isn't able to have sex, I don't think "OMG what an *******, he's trying to control sexual frequency in our relationship, trying to leverage power over me by doing that, what a douche!". Nor would most normal and healthy people of any gender, from my experience.

 

All of this does depend on one's experience, and it's also difficult to ignore subtle gender biases. When I say power and control, I don't mean sledge hammer type of power, I mean a more subtle implication that she is the one in this relationship who decides when sex happens and when it doesn't. She determines how much access he has to sex, and thereby she is in control of his sexuality.

 

This whole thread is about whether it's right (selfish or not) for her to exercise that control based on her own preference rather than considering his need, whether we're talking immediate need (the morning referenced in #1), or his overall need in terms of keeping a high drive man on the once a week plan.

 

I am not arguing that it's not within her "rights" (or his) to decline on any particular occasion for any particular reason, of course it is... what I'm saying is that there is more going on in terms of relationship dynamics than is being addressed from the "is she within her rights" perspective. Sure, if this example is a one-off kind of thing then perhaps it should not be seen as a big deal. But, if it's more symbolic and represents the assertion of who controls what in this relationship, then I guess she's still within her rights... so it's easy to "win" the argument by limiting it to the most literal interpretation, just like it's easy for her to limit his sexual expression and satisfaction by not being in the mood but once a week. If this were a woman wanting sex ten times a week, married to a man who is always too tired or just not interested in it more than once a week, everyone would be telling him to get his T tested and saying "hey buddy, you need to step up and take care of business."

[Tribble]

If this were a woman wanting sex ten times a week, married to a man who is always too tired or just not interested in it more than once a week, everyone would be telling him to get his T tested and saying "hey buddy, you need to step up and take care of business."

 

I do think this is quite true, there are gender roles here to consider. The issue would be to find out the problem. However, I think we are forgetting she has two very young children that can very much affect her libido. Many posters have addressed this: getting a cleaner/ babysitter, taking care of herself etc.

 

But more to the point, the OP's issue is not that her husband wants sex all the time and she doesn't and she's trying to get out of it and get sympathy. The issue is that the OP wants physical affection that does not lead to sex.

 

A few questions OP. Does your husband ever show you physical affection without it leading to sex? And does your husband complain about the frequency you have sex? I think these are critical questions.

 

Physical contact is one of the ways I express and feel love. Made all the more special because I'm not a touchy-feely person apart from with a romantic partner. Sex is a really big part of that. However, I would have a big problem if my partner only expressed physical affection when they wanted sex. No holding hands or snuggling on the sofa. It can feel like they aren't expressing love at all, that they just want to satisfy their sexual requirements.

[knabe]

you can see it as decidedly wrong for the husband to have any expectation if that's the way your bias leans.

 

Hyperbole and black and white thinking. No one anywhere on this thread has said a man should have no expectation. Your arguments lack credibility because they are so dramatic and extreme.

 

Your bias against all women is much more pronounced than any supposed bias in this thread of women against men.

[BettyDraper]

You see, these words reveal something important about the female perspective.

 

 

 

All of this does depend on one's experience, and it's also difficult to ignore subtle gender biases. When I say power and control, I don't mean sledge hammer type of power, I mean a more subtle implication that she is the one in this relationship who decides when sex happens and when it doesn't. She determines how much access he has to sex, and thereby she is in control of his sexuality.

 

This whole thread is about whether it's right (selfish or not) for her to exercise that control based on her own preference rather than considering his need, whether we're talking immediate need (the morning referenced in #1), or his overall need in terms of keeping a high drive man on the once a week plan.

 

I am not arguing that it's not within her "rights" (or his) to decline on any particular occasion for any particular reason, of course it is... what I'm saying is that there is more going on in terms of relationship dynamics than is being addressed from the "is she within her rights" perspective. Sure, if this example is a one-off kind of thing then perhaps it should not be seen as a big deal. But, if it's more symbolic and represents the assertion of who controls what in this relationship, then I guess she's still within her rights... so it's easy to "win" the argument by limiting it to the most literal interpretation, just like it's easy for her to limit his sexual expression and satisfaction by not being in the mood but once a week. If this were a woman wanting sex ten times a week, married to a man who is always too tired or just not interested in it more than once a week, everyone would be telling him to get his T tested and saying "hey buddy, you need to step up and take care of business."

 

I completely understand your viewpoints and I do agree to some extent.

However, it could be helpful to read CR's other threads to put her sexual issues into context. CR's husband is very dismissive of her feelings relating to his mother's emotional abuse. He feels that because he provides a certain lifestyle for CR, she has no right to complain about anything and she should basically just shut up.

 

It appears that CR is resenting this treatment and that makes her less willing to take care of her husband's sexual needs. Maybe refusing sex is the only way CR feels that she can assert herself. There are better ways to handle marital conflicts but CR's husband is not willing to listen to her or attend marriage counseling. Most women need to feel loved and safe in a relationship before being interested in sex.

 

I make it a priority to be sexually available to my husband. He doesn't dismiss my feelings just because he's the breadwinner though. I also have a difficult MIL but she lives far away and my husband is always defending me on the rare occasions that we have to see her. Another advantage is that I don't have children to wear me out physically and emotionally. CR is the new mother of twin boys and babies take so much out of a woman...especially multiple births.

[alsudduth]

You see, these words reveal something important about the female perspective.

 

 

How so? I used the word obligated, because you and others have made it seem like we are obligated to have sex with our spouses no matter what the situation. I just tend to politely disagree with that.

 

It is important to have physical affection with your partner not related to sex. It's great if it leads to that when BOTH partners want it, but as other posters have pointed out, making one to feel obligated (Male or Female!) is a total turn off. Marriage isn't tit for tat. It's about knowing the signals your partner is giving off and responding appropriately. And in my example, if the OP HAD acknowledged her husband's need and agreed that he deserves some attention in that department soon but not just then because she was tired or wasn't feeling great or whatever the reason - I don't see how that is a bad thing. She said herself that while he was upset, it was not for a very long period of time....I imagine if she had been a little more upfront with him in the beginning, he wouldn't have been huffy at all. (well maybe)

 

If this was something OP did all the time and her spouse was never getting his needs met, then I might tend to agree with you here. But that is not the case from what I've read in this thread.

[Clay]

I think if your getting upset that he would ask you for this then your missing a real chance to build a better intimate relationship. Its not that you have to give in to him every time. Its just a way for the both of you to connect and build a better understanding of each others needs and desires. You could work out a compromise with him and explain to him how you feel frustrated that he would ask for sex every time you ask for a back rub. Some of the others posted exactly what I was thinking. If you continue to reject him then your both just going to be more and more upset over the course of your relationship.

 

To many people think relationships should just be easy and they should flow naturally. If you ask anyone that has 40 years under there belt they will tell you keeping the relationship alive was hard work and it was the best investment they ever made.

 

C

[elaine567]

Its not that you have to give in to him every time.

C

 

Apparently she does.

 

 

I can tell you now that it feels like my husband doesn't respect me as much as he used to. It feels like he doesn't want or expect anything from me on a personal level other than to remain some pretty thing to hang of his arm and to always **** him whenever the mood strikes.

 

[mercy]

ten characters

[xenawarriorprincess]

My issue: Like a lot of ladies, it's such a nice feeling going to bed and taking off my bra. It's an even nicer feeling when your SO gives you a nice back rub/scratch/massage.

 

My immediate thought when I read this was:

 

You are annoyed that every time he touches you, he wants sex.

Maybe he is annoyed that every time you get into bed next to him you want a back rub!

 

My view is that sex shouldn't be something I have to partake in, if I don't want to, just because we've shared moments of physical affection, i.e. cuddling etc.

 

I often hear woman say that they “shouldn’t have to have sex with him”. You don’t have to do anything, but it’s nice when men and women give their partners the physical intimacy that they are craving.

 

You want a backrub at night to help you un-wind, he wants to enjoy sexual intimacy with the person he is attracted to.

It doesn’t make him a jerk for desiring you.

[Chardonnay Renée]

My immediate thought when I read this was:

 

You are annoyed that every time he touches you, he wants sex.

Maybe he is annoyed that every time you get into bed next to him you want a back rub!

 

 

 

I often hear woman say that they “shouldn’t have to have sex with him”. You don’t have to do anything, but it’s nice when men and women give their partners the physical intimacy that they are craving.

 

You want a backrub at night to help you un-wind, he wants to enjoy sexual intimacy with the person he is attracted to.

It doesn’t make him a jerk for desiring you.

 

To paraphrase Jesus: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

I'm agnostic but I still find that lesson to be a very important one in life.

 

I sincerely hope that you haven't sinned before by denying your spouse sex, ever!

 

And, I never used the term "jerk", either. It's not part of my vernacular. I didn't even use a derivative of said term.

 

I think you've missed the point completely.

[xenawarriorprincess]

I'd like the opinions of others, male and female perspectives, to help evaluate my own perspective in this small, albeit annoying, recent disagreement.

 

 

To paraphrase Jesus: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

I'm agnostic but I still find that lesson to be a very important one in life.

 

I sincerely hope that you haven't sinned before by denying your spouse sex, ever!

 

 

I’m confused……

 

You asked for opinions and different perspectives. This is my perspective.

 

You don’t have to agree.

 

But when you ask for opinions and then state that I am judging you……it just doesn’t seem like you actually wanted different opinions or the perspectives of others at all.

 

Perhaps all you wanted was the approval of those who feel similarly.

[BettyDraper]

To paraphrase Jesus: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

 

I'm agnostic but I still find that lesson to be a very important one in life.

 

I sincerely hope that you haven't sinned before by denying your spouse sex, ever!

 

And, I never used the term "jerk", either. It's not part of my vernacular. I didn't even use a derivative of said term.

 

I think you've missed the point completely.

 

 

CR...I like you a lot but this response was needlessly defensive.

There's no need for this level of hostility when an LS member isn't even being nasty to you.

[Chardonnay Renée]

I’m confused……

 

You asked for opinions and different perspectives. This is my perspective.

 

You don’t have to agree.

 

But when you ask for opinions and then state that I am judging you……it just doesn’t seem like you actually wanted different opinions or the perspectives of others at all.

 

Perhaps all you wanted was the approval of those who feel similarly.

 

You're right. I'm sorry, I don't agree with you. However, I did ask for the opinions of others here, so I do have to accept them either way without getting defensive. I'm genuinely not just looking for opinions which validate how I feel.

 

I guess it's a bit confronting to hear opinions that don't align with your own. Depending on the delivery, they can seem judgemental. Learning to better deal with how people judge me based on my emotions is a weakness of mine I'm trying to work on.

 

Once again, I apologise for biting your head off. I'm overwhelmed with the responses in here; wanting but not having the time to respond to them all. I think I need to step away from this thread for a bit, collect my thoughts and reassess everything regarding this issue.

[LivingWaterPlease]

ChardonnayRose,

 

You have a lot on your plate it's been pointed out. And I must say that I agree.

 

It's interesting to me that you quoted the words of Jesus Christ in a recent post and also referenced the denial of sex to a spouse as that of sin.

 

Regarding your quote and reference; the same Man who said, "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone," also said, "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

Seems to me with all you have to deal with, a gentle and humble Presence in your life who wants to teach you how to live easily and give you rest would be welcome.

[Chardonnay Renée]

ChardonnayRose,

 

You have a lot on your plate it's been pointed out. And I must say that I agree.

 

It's interesting to me that you quoted the words of Jesus Christ in a recent post and also referenced the denial of sex to a spouse as that of sin.

 

Regarding your quote and reference; the same Man who said, "Let he that is without sin cast the first stone," also said, "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me. For I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

Seems to me with all you have to deal with, a gentle and humble Presence in your life who wants to teach you how to live easily and give you rest would be welcome.

 

Thank you, LWP. I put my foot in it quoting JC, didn't I? I like the quote and I always reference the source if I can. However, i thought it pertinent that I also mention I was agnostic.

 

I don't want to offend anyone, so I will say that we'll have to agree to disagree with the Bible's interpretation of how a good wife should be.

[Chardonnay Renée]

I completely understand your viewpoints and I do agree to some extent.

However, it could be helpful to read CR's other threads to put her sexual issues into context. CR's husband is very dismissive of her feelings relating to his mother's emotional abuse. He feels that because he provides a certain lifestyle for CR, she has no right to complain about anything and she should basically just shut up.

 

It appears that CR is resenting this treatment and that makes her less willing to take care of her husband's sexual needs. Maybe refusing sex is the only way CR feels that she can assert herself. There are better ways to handle marital conflicts but CR's husband is not willing to listen to her or attend marriage counseling. Most women need to feel loved and safe in a relationship before being interested in sex.

 

I make it a priority to be sexually available to my husband. He doesn't dismiss my feelings just because he's the breadwinner though. I also have a difficult MIL but she lives far away and my husband is always defending me on the rare occasions that we have to see her. Another advantage is that I don't have children to wear me out physically and emotionally. CR is the new mother of twin boys and babies take so much out of a woman...especially multiple births.

 

Thank you, BettyDraper.

 

I will take a short break from this thread and consider a few things and I'll perhaps come back with a slightly different perspective, as well as an elaboration on my overall situation to try and put my feelings in context.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Thank you, LWP. I put my foot in it quoting JC, didn't I? I like the quote and I always reference the source if I can. However, i thought it pertinent that I also mention I was agnostic.

 

I don't want to offend anyone, so I will say that we'll have to agree to disagree with the Bible's interpretation of how a good wife should be.

 

Yes, I did notice you posted you're agnostic! And seems to me it's wonderful that you like the quote of Jesus!

 

In answer to your question, I don't believe quoting the words of Jesus Christ is putting your foot in it at all!

 

The text I posted is meant for all people, not just wives!

 

I see that you're withdrawing from the thread for a bit. Enjoy a bit of a rest from this topic and I look forward to seeing you on other threads or even for an update on this one!

Edited August 10, 2017 by LivingWaterPlease

[Chardonnay Renée]

Greetings everyone.

 

So, I've had a couple of weeks to sit on this thread, the responses I've received both in this thread and in PM and to reflect on my situation in general.

 

I think, like most things in life, it's hard to accurately advise others when the context the question was asked in is not fully explained or understood.

 

In isolation, many here agreed with my husband when he claimed that I had acted in a selfish manner when I declined his sexual advances after he gave me a back rub.

 

The truth is, sex has been a struggle since I gave birth to my twins fourteen months ago. It's been a struggle, mainly due to my husband's impatience.

 

My husband has always been a very sexual man. When we first dated we had sex multiple times a day. It was the ultimate honeymoon period. That last approximately two years.

 

Between year three of our relationship and right up until our marriage, we'd have sex most days. Rarely did I turn him down because rarely did I not desire sex myself.

 

I did, however, take exception to an attitude of entitlement my husband displayed around that time of the month. My husband expected daily headjobs as "compensation" for a week's dry spell.

 

Despite my frequent, aganosing cramps, my husband would grumble and groan and make it known in a passive-aggressive manner that he thought I was just stalling.

 

I had made it clear that I was, of course, on-board with ensuring that my husband weren't to be neglected sexually; the attitude I felt was that it was my duty and therefore I deserved minimal gratitude.

 

So, anyway, fast forward to the birth of our twins. It wasn't long until my husband was wanting to be 'serviced' in one way or another. I obliged, for the most part, but didn't appreciate being put under pressure.

 

Since we've had our boys, my mother-in-law has been a consistent presence in our (my) life. It's been well documented in another thread I created just how bad she's been. Overbearing is an understatement!

 

My husband has been on again off again with regards to supporting me and helping me deal with his mother, who, I will add, is around most days, often puts me down and has my husband's blessing.

 

When I have felt as though I'm unappreciated, taken for granted and having my emotional needs unfulfilled - being ready, willing and able to embrace and enjoy intimacy with my husband is difficult to achieve.

 

Being guilt tripped at best, and downright bullied in reality, to have sex when other needs of mine aren't being met, has a devastating consequence long-term.

 

To be fair to my husband, he's improving. Things have gotten better, slowly. But, he'll regress every now and again, and when he does he can get quite snarky. That sort of behaviour only serves to isolate me.

 

Since I started this thread, we have been okay. Nothing more came about my husband's disappointment, other than a discussion where my husband reiterated his commitment to emotionally supporting me.

[Trail Blazer]

Your husband sounds like a controlling a**hole. No offense.

[S2B]

Why are we getting all of this negative info on your husband after almost 100 posts? You could have given us this info early on and it would have shed more light on why you feel mistreated.

 

You two may gain from a therapist. There's many issues going on here which require respect and compromise.

 

 

And a firm boundary is needed with your mother in law. State clearly she is allowed to visit one day per week for two hours! Stick to it. If your husband doesn't agree then tell him no sex for a month. Just kidding but you get the idea!

[Els]

Your history with your husband saddens me, OP. What is the situation with your MIL nowadays?

 

Between year three of our relationship and right up until our marriage, we'd have sex most days. Rarely did I turn him down because rarely did I not desire sex myself.

 

I did, however, take exception to an attitude of entitlement my husband displayed around that time of the month. My husband expected daily headjobs as "compensation" for a week's dry spell.

 

I really wish you had taken this red flag seriously and reconsidered the decision to marry him or have children with him. I mean, I get that that ship has already sailed, and hopefully he will improve, but it really looks like you have an uphill battle ahead of you. It sounds like his fundamental personality is that of a rather selfish and entitled man. Can counseling fix that? I don't know. I do hope so, for your sake. It seems like back rubs vs sex is the absolute least of your problems here.

[BaileyB]

Your husband sounds like a controlling a**hole. No offense.

 

This is it. Demanding, controlling, entitled...

 

Reading your post made me sad too. But, you knew what would be expected when you married him. He's unlikely to change now...

[camillalev]

...Really. Your husband is acting childish. Is it a terrible thing for a partner to do something nice without having to get something in return. That's the nature of a loving, healthy relationship, you do nice little things for them because you care about them. You're not being selfish in the negative sense for asking for a backrub. Maybe later on in the night/day/week you can return the favor because you want to do something nice for him. I wouldn't even enjoy a backrub from my SO knowing that he was only doing so fully *expecting* sex immediately after in return.

[BettyDraper]

Your history with your husband saddens me, OP. What is the situation with your MIL nowadays?

 

 

 

I really wish you had taken this red flag seriously and reconsidered the decision to marry him or have children with him. I mean, I get that that ship has already sailed, and hopefully he will improve, but it really looks like you have an uphill battle ahead of you. It sounds like his fundamental personality is that of a rather selfish and entitled man. Can counseling fix that? I don't know. I do hope so, for your sake. It seems like back rubs vs sex is the absolute least of your problems here.

 

I agree. I'm guessing that CR was swept away by her husband's appearance and charismatic personality when they met. Unfortunately, handsome and affluent men tend to be the most entitled as well as arrogant. They feel that their money and attractiveness means that they can treat others any way they choose.

 

CR has mentioned her husband's self importance as well as his tendency to bring up what he provides for her when CR shares her pain. The back rubs/sex issue is a symptom of a deeper problem....a fundamental lack of regard for CR's emotional needs as well as physical comfort.