Stay or go? What on earth do I do now?

[straycat]

Ditherer, I have been following your posts for months, rooting for you to get some honesty into your life--but now I have to post directly, specifically to say this:

 

The way you speak of your wife makes me feel physically ill. You seem to find it helpful to your cause to forget that she is a human being, the mother of your children, your helpmate. She is not a piece of baggage you are forced to drag around.

 

Your lies, dishonesty, and withdrawal from her is no doubt eating her up inside. She doesn't want to lose you because...duh: You support her financially. Without you she loses everything familiar and safe.

 

If you don't love her, be a man and LET HER GO. And make sure you leave her financially in tact. Stringing her along, lying about your feelings, etc. is CRUEL. There is no other way to put it. Please stop! Put her out of her misery!

 

I write this as a wife who recently, FINALLY, convinced her husband to admit he no longer loved her and to move out after an almost 20-year marriage.

 

The only difference between me and your wife is that I have a backbone, a job and enough pride to refuse to go on with a one-sided marriage. I deserve better, and so does your wife. It may even surprise you how fast she bounces back and finds someone who loves and appreciates her with complete sincerity.

 

Forgive my bluntness D. But I know you are open to "tough love" as well as expressions of support.

[straycat]

Ditherer, I have been following your posts for months, rooting for you to get some honesty into your life--but now I have to post directly, specifically to say this:

 

The way you speak of your wife makes me feel physically ill. You seem to find it helpful to your cause to forget that she is a human being, the mother of your children, your helpmate. She is not a piece of baggage you are forced to drag around.

 

Your lies, dishonesty, and withdrawal from her is no doubt eating her up inside. She doesn't want to lose you because...duh: You support her financially. Without you she loses everything familiar and safe.

 

If you don't love her, be a man and LET HER GO. And make sure you leave her financially intact. Stringing her along, lying about your feelings, etc. is CRUEL. There is no other way to put it. Please stop! Put her out of her misery!

 

I write this as a wife who recently, FINALLY, convinced her husband to admit he no longer loved her and to do the right thing: move out and set her free.

 

The only difference between me and your wife is that I have a backbone, a job and enough pride to refuse to go on with a one-sided marriage. I deserve better, and so does your wife. It may even surprise you how fast she bounces back and finds someone who loves and appreciates her with complete sincerity.

 

Forgive my bluntness D. But I know you are open to "tough love" as well as expressions of support.

[Ditherer]

Happy New Year everyone!

 

Straycat, thanks, I'll reply to you tomorrow, but I've written a lot off-line and only just managed to access the shack and only just seen your message.. it's gone midnight and I need my beauty sleep. In short though, I agree and I'm not proud of myself.

 

Thanks makingthingsright, very interesting post. I would never have though that all this would actually help anyone else in any way, but it's very kind of you to suggest that!

 

I guess you've probably said all you want to say, but it sounds interesting. I'd love to hear more from you, if you're up for it!

 

The reasons why I still dither? Yes, it IS fluff and stuff what people would say, financial situations, fear of setting up home alone, living by myself, a less certain future (as if it's ever predictable anyway!), etc. I'd have to cope with all that. More importantly I'm not ready to walk out yet (which I aim to remedy - at one point I thought I could tidy up everything in a few hours! An over-estimate I reckon).

 

No, the dithering continues because I'm scared of the hurt and upset the actual split will cause for:

a) My wife - I can justify it by telling myself it's an ordeal that just has to be faced, I should just be a man about it, and hope she doesn't do anything too silly.

b) My kids - this is the hard bit. It agonises me to think what effects it will have for them. But I know I can't win, they'll either grow up coming to know me as grumpy miserable dad, or see me once/twice a week as freer more cheerful Dad (I hope). They don't stay kids all that long - this is the rest of my life I'm dealing with here. Besides, divorce is all about me and my wife - callous as it may sound to say that The Family is incidental.

 

The other doubts stopping me are:

c) my beliefs - but why would He grant me an affair that could have ended a lot sooner (this subplot will remain untold!) but carried on long enough for me to reach the point of being so close to leaving, having consulted lawyers etc. Why would He allow me to break my vows in order to help me somehow realise they were worth saving? No, I've concluded He wants to help me to realise it was never right and won't work out, and for me to put an end to it.

d) Not being totally at ease with giving up on the marriage. When I think about this issue, I always arrive at the same conclusion - that it never felt right, and it never will be. But sure, there have been great moments along the way, life has had its enjoyable moments. For a young man with a lack of self esteem it was great to find someone pretty to have a sexual relationship with, when I didn't think I'd find anyone else, so I had times when I was happy with my lot or made the best of it, because I never believed any other alternative could be possible. My life plan was always the conventional 'house and kids' package, and my wife has delivered there. It saddens me beyond description how I've achieved so much that I'd never have believed possible as a shy teenager.. and yet I'm not enjoying it as I should be because the core relationship is so lacking. I've messed my life up, my wife's, possibly my kids - and I could just about accept that maybe I don't deserve another chance. If I spend the rest of my life alone in a grim sea of regrets, that would be justice of sorts. But.. life's what you make of it, huh?

 

It's not getting any easier! But, if it wasn't for the kids, and if I came home one night and my wife said "sorry, I've found someone else"... I'd be away like a shot and I'd never look back! I'd have no reason to look back and regret, the decision would be out of my hands. How come then, if it would be that straightforward, why is the decision itself so hard to make, still? If there's nothing here worth having that I'd miss, why am I so scared to give it up? It's fear of making a decision - for fear of choosing the wrong path. That's pretty lame, isn't it? -but I've never had to make such a tough decision before. All my life has simply fallen into place, thanks to my patient 'what will be will be' nature - but now it's not working for me. I'm still trying to justify it. Every time she's screaming obscenely at the kids for not doing as they're told *right* away, I tell myself "how the **** am I supposed to love THAT?!". And when she's plain nasty to me I love it - I can tell myself "I shouldn't have to put up with this"... and yet still I feel guilty...

 

... doomed to dither plenty more...

 

[makingthingsright]

Ditherer:

 

Not a problem - for me it was a situation where I found that I had let myself become something that wasnt good for my wife and children. (That would be the reader's digest version of this whole thing.)

 

I was faced with a decision: Stay and continue to "play" husband to my wife, who is actually a nice person - but for whom I had no feelings past friendship and the common thread of a child. (Bear in mind - I have two children - I don't regret one minute of my life for that reason alone. The powers that be deemed that to be the way it was supposed to be, because, put bluntly, I never knew any better.) Anyway - stay and prevent EITHER of us from connecting with someone that would be in love with US, and possibly set the table for an affair on either side, or GO and potentially lose constant contact with my girls, become a weekend father, and never become the father that I know I can be. (I have taken steps towards becoming, in my eyes, becoming that dad that they deserve.)

 

When I made the decision (and it wasnt gentle, nor was it graceful) I realized that prolonging things would only make life unbearable for both of us. The circumstances around my telling her may get chronicled someday .. but for now, lets just say - it wasnt the best way to go about it. My thoughts stopped being IF i wanted to go, but how to do it so that I can move on with my life as a person, and at the same time accomplish two other things: ensure that my kids and their mother are taken care of (not independently wealthy ) and also continue to be a guiding force in my children's life. The concept of loneliness is there (dreading the concept of dating) and I know that when it is said and done I will probably be eating a lot of packaged noodles.. BUT I came to terms with that based on the fact that 1- I am not happy now.. I may be comfortable - but not happy, nor have i for a long time. I dont deserve that, and neither does she. 2 - Somewhere along the way I am going to slip - It has never happened in the past, but lately, I probably could have gotten away with something if I wanted to. That would hurt her, and me in the long run.

 

I know that I wont have my cake and eat it too.. I know that I stand a good chance at being miserable.. I know that if I dont do this the right way - my world could crumble in on me. But the one thing I refuse to do anymore is NOTHING. (of course, having said that .. I have to wait to find someplace to live.. saving up deposit money!! Go figure!)

 

PS - My wife (and she is my wife until the paperwork is signed) knows that I am apartment shopping - she isnt happy, however, she is being very civil, and more than that, helpful.. I am looking to move to an area that will make getting to my kids easy, which happens to be in her old neighborhood. If your wife is civil - you may find yourself with an easier situation.

 

The big thing you want to rememeber tho .. you may be making the decision -- my gut says you are already gone. Fine. People have left for less. BUT you are a father, and you will have to continue communication with your wife. Your inability to make a decision is putting - whether you think it is or not - a strain on your family. It's time to step up. You need to talk to her let her know what is rattling around in your head. The outcome may be good, the outcome may be bad - but it will be something, and then you have something to work with..

 

(wow .. I think I rambled.. sorry)

 

I'll stop here. But please, for your sanity, and more importantly, hers, make a move - and at least talk to her. Tell her what is going on in your head, Sometimes we find ourselves in spots that we REALLY dont want to be in, but one of the worst decision, I have found, is to do nothing and hope it works out. In almost every case, it is because you are working from fear When you work from a position of fear - you are letting other forces make your decisions. This usually means that you will be cornered into a spot that you dont want.. and may lose everything.

 

NOW i will stop. (next time i will proofread.. )

[Wintersbloom]

Yes you do deserve that. I listened to a doctor speak recently and she shared her mantra: " Why do I want to be in a relationship with someone who can not love me the way I deserve to be loved?" She said it was important for us all to consider, this question when we are in a relationship and miserable. What do we deserve, are we addicted to the relationship? Afraid to be alone? She says we are happier alone than in a desperate relationship. Good luck and best wishes.

[Ditherer]

Straycat, thanks for adding your comments. I'm sorry I paint a bleak picture of my wife, it's part of how I try to justify leaving. I have pointed out her good side here and there too, but it's harder to find amongst this monster thread

As you said, I "find it helpful to (my) cause" - so I think you understand. As for the cruelty of prolonging all this, I'm in a no-win situation. I'm not trying to hurt anyone, I just want to be sure about what I think I need to do, before I hurt her even more than the current situation. If there was *ANY* way I could avoid hurting her, I'd jump at the chance. I've even prayed for her to find someone else! I also justify it as simply spreading out the same amount of hurt over a long timeframe - the more cheesed off she is with me now, the easier the split will be? Less of a severe shock? That's the best I can come up with. But you're absolutely right. This situation stinks, I hate it, I hate myself for ending up here. But what can I do? My current plan is to tidy up all my stuff in preparation for leaving, now that Christmas has come and gone without me feeling any warmer about her. Once I am able to leave at a moment's notice, then I'll be better able to make The Decision (or rather Have The Talk - which will almost certainly lead to a Trial Sep there and then).

 

"Forgive my bluntness D. But I know you are open to "tough love" as well as expressions of support."

Yes, no problem, thanks. All comments happily received!

 

makingthingsright - thanks, and I'll catch up with you too at some point!

 

Wintersbloom - thank you too, nice to have your input.

[Ditherer]

makingthingsright, thanks for telling me your story. There's a lot of similarity there, for sure. I appreciate you sharing all that with us, and your advice is good. But I still feel too trapped to act just yet. I don't feel I can talk to her or leave any time soon, I'm still wrestling with whether I should just put up with a dull lifestyle because that's what I 'signed up to', make the best of it and suppress the empty sadness within, endure the yawning chasm in my heart, suffer an endless regret of not having searched longer for someone closer to my needs, etc.. although I'm sure divorce is a reasonable option if I do lose all 100% faith in things ever being worth rescuing - so that part of it isn't scary any more.

 

I feel that if I give up totally, I'll be quite justified in telling her I just don't (and can't) love her as she deserves, and from arguments we've had before I'm fairly certain she won't want to waste any more time and effort with me... especially when she hears she'll be able to carry on living here with me paying the bills.

 

Leaving here doesn't scare me enough to stop me going. Her reaction is a scary prospect but again not enough to stop me. As I wrote on New Year's Day, I still worry about the effect on the kids, although again that's not enough to stop me. No, it's all about my uncertainty, my fear of change, my cowardice. It's all me, me, me! Even my gut instincts are arguing amongst themselves - half saying it's not so bad, it's an easy life better than many people have - half saying this is a waste of my life, why stay when I feel so VERY distant from her, don't we both deserve more than just serving time in a stifling co-habiting arrangement?

 

I don't know if I'm making any progress, if I am it's going very slowly. Then again, I'm managing to go an hour or two without ex-'babe' popping into my thoughts.. and I'm not in pain over her any more. Maybe by the time I've tidied up my stuff and the cold weather's over I'll be feeling even more trapped in this house night after night after night again... then things will really will come to a head.

 

We'll see. This should be an interesting year!

[Ditherer]

Still dithering

 

(I thought I'd make a quick posting for a change!)

[swift]

god you sound so much like my husband and in some ways i wish he would have the backbone to just go if thats what he wants i have told him i will not stop him going as much as it might hurt, but i also told him that i will not live a life alone and that i will go out and look for someone else to share my life with, i'm not sure he likes me saying this but thats the way it is.

[Becoming]

god you sound so much like my husband and in some ways i wish he would have the backbone to just go if thats what he wants i have told him i will not stop him going as much as it might hurt, but i also told him that i will not live a life alone and that i will go out and look for someone else to share my life with, i'm not sure he likes me saying this but thats the way it is.

 

Why doesn't someone take the initiative to end this? No one wants to feel like the bad guy? Get over it. We're all bad guys and good guys all mixed up. No one's clean.

[Ditherer]

Yes.. why don't I end this situation? Well, feel free to read all of this thread to see why I call myself Ditherer

 

However... it's dawned on me that I don't *have* to make a decision! I've realised it's already been made for me - by my gut instincts.. YAY!! - I just have to follow them, for once. After all, that's what my New Year's Resolution was, to listen to my instincts instead of ignoring them.. as I know.. that's where I've been going wrong all these years.

 

Never that simple though - I've also got some other gut instincts to not hurt everyone (short term!) and delve into the unknown! - weaker instincts, though, to be honest. One other problem is, that although I know I HAVE to talk it over, I'm pretty sure that will automatically lead to a split. So talking it over means going.. which means going is something I have to be prepared to do.. to be ready for!

 

But I have to talk to her and be honest, and see what happens. Because:

I can't just go (just vanish? It's one extreme, but a lousy approach),

I can't decide to stay (nothing will be fixed that way, it'll never work) and

I can't carry on like this (I'll go mad. I'm getting depressed again already)

So... the only sensible solution really is to tidy up and then talk about it.

 

I wonder how long I'll drag it out.. tidying up.. sorting out things around the house that need fixing (stuff I can't just leave her to deal with - she'd end up nagging me to sort it out even if I wasn't here!).. I wonder if I'll be anywhere near The Chat by.. Easter?!

[Becoming]

Sorry, D. Didn't mean to be snippy. I have read alllllllll of this thread over time, and, frankly, I'm feeling like I did when I watched the Titanic. I knew what was going to happen. I just wanted them to die already and get it over with. I had the same problem with Mel Gibson's Passion . There's my Lord being brutally tortured and all I can think is please, make it stop!

 

Quit beating yourself up already, that's all. It sounds like you've resolved to go today and are considerate enough to not want to leave her with a bunch of things to deal with. You don't want to hurt anyone; that's obvious. It's the reason why you haven't gone. You really want to be a nice guy and can't reconcile divorce with this need, it seems to me. But you're hurting her by staying and not really being there, as others have said. You've already gone emotionally, and surely she knows this.

[Ditherer]

Remember how I've always said I made the best of my situation until now because I thought divorce wasn't an option? And how I've only agonised over all this (ignoring the affair!) because it started to seem that divoce WAS possible after all .. I could see a way out? An escape route? Well, now I can't! I'm so terrified of upsetting God that I'll stick to this dull rut if I feel I have to, what choice do I have? Looks like I've got a whole lot more soul-searching to do.. a lot more figuring things out...

 

I feel so trapped I could cry. I thought I might as well research what the Bible says about divorce, before I just *assume* it must be OK if I Believe, but yet my gut instincts are telling me to leave. I've looked up "God says"+"Bible"+"Divorce" in Google.. followed a few links.. and found what the Official Position really seems to be on this matter. And it looks like I'm well and truly stuck! I'm trapped here forever. It's very depressing. Now I know why recently I've been so strongly feeling I'll never have anyone else... I realise I've probably stumbled across the most hard-line webpages first, and I've never been able to accept various things the Bible says anyway.. so I don't know whether to take it with a pinch of salt.. but..

 

Apparently God *hates* divorce, even if I was stupid enough to marry without understanding all the implications, I'm bound by my promises to God and that's that. Tough luck. If I back out, using our earthly legal system is one thing but it's still against the will of God, I'll have broken the sacred covenant and I'll be 'spiritually dead' for eternity! Charming! I'd never have tied the knot if I'd known it was that permanent.. when I was stood there in Church it was under the understanding (wrongly or not) that divorce was a last resort option if things went really bad, no matter how good my intention may have been - it wasn't exactly unheard of. Plenty of precedents.

 

So I have to question why divorces are happening left right and center for reasons that seemingly disobey the Bible? Wouldn't He put a stop to all that? (yeah, as well as stopping earthquakes and tidal waves, as someone mentioned recently in another thread... I guess I can't win that one)

And even if I do divorce for a reason God won't accept, I'll still be married in His view, and any further intimate relations with other women (even a second marriage) would be adultery! So if my belief is what it should be, I should be doing all I can to make it work, despite my lack of faith that's it's worth the effort.

 

So I've been looking for loopholes, to get me off the hook. The only one I can find is if my non-believing wife leaves me, then I'm ok to divorce her (Cor 7:12-15). So if I tell her how much I've lost whatever feelings I had, and get her to leave (or agree for me to leave the house - same difference) then I'll be fine!! If the unbeliever instigates the separation and divorce that's fine, but a believer has to grit their teeth and continue the marriage otherwise. I can agree to a divorce, but I can't ask for one!

 

"To sum up, there are only three things that release a marriage partner from a marriage:

1 the death of one marriage partner

2 sexual unfaithfulness by a marriage partner

3 the desertion and divorce by an unbelieving marriage partner.

That is the plain teaching of Scripture."

 

Where the heck does that leave the whole Church of England religion anyway? Wasn't the whole thing founded upon Henry VIII's wishes to divorce so many times - isn't that the main reason the whole protestant split from the catholic church came about? Is the entire blinkin' religion against the fundamental teachings of the Bible?!

 

My problem with this? I'm not the kind of person who follows rules blindly if I can't see the reasoning behind them. Most of the laws of the land have a clear purpose and I'll stick to them because I can see why it's of benefit to all of us to stick to them. Others, I'll pick and choose - i.e. I regularly break speed limits when I'm practically certain it's safe to do so. Then there's the whole issue of not being prepared to believe the Bible entirely. I can't believe in the Garden of Eden stuff, Adam and Eve and a talking snake, six days of creation, Noah and floods and the whole of creation happily surviving in a small wooden boat without eating each other.. oh dear oh dear.. the fundamentalists and evangalists just sadden me beyond belief (in more ways than one). I've long since regarded the Bible as a simplistic piece of fiction (in those areas) to keep simple people happy in simpler times. But this divorce issue is closer to the heart of the matter of God's Word - the kind of stuff I *would* rely on the Bible to be truthful about. How though.. how can I be selective about what to believe and what not to? I guess I have no choice but to trust my instincts on how the 2000 (?) year-old Bible applies to modern life in the Western world here in the 21st century. Is it more of a guide than an instruction manual? Does 'man', in his usual arrogance, take kindly to the prospect of reading and following instructions?

 

More specifically, does the God I believe in wish to see me miserably stuck to someone I can't feel love for, for the rest of my life? Someone who doesn't believe in God herself (although my belief on its own seems to be enough to sanctify the marriage), someone who doesn't 'complete me' in the way marriage is supposed to? What's the point? Am I allowed to have made a mistake and be set free?

 

So can I make her lose all willingness to remain with me, so that SHE suggests we part?! Am I allowed to be totally honest about how I've felt since day one, to the point where she's so hurt that she tells me where to go, and that's that? Or do I cover it up, and tell white lies, do what ever I have to do to keep her in 'blissful ignorance' while I do whatever I can to struggle to see enough to love in her? Isn't that dishonest, the whole marriage is a sham anyway if there's stuff I'm hiding that would split us up (that *MANY* other people *do* know about, just to add salt to the hurt) and we just can't be straight with each other? Should I attempt to be totally straight with her, to test what would happen? Leave the results to God? Maybe it would end, it's up to Him, maybe she'd overcome it? It would certainly make the marriage stronger in the long run if we both got over the Big Revelation Of The Truth (of how I've felt over the years, and last year in particular). Can I tell her all about the affair - and she'll forgive me? I can't imagine that! Maybe that's my escape route! Total honesty, knowing she'll never forgive me? That's not 'doing all I can to make it work' - the approach I think some would say I should take - so I can't win, can I?

 

Maybe I need to go and find a friendly vicar and have a good talk about things.. although I just *KNOW* he'd try to 'win my soul back' and persuade me to stick at it. I just can't imagine that the marriage 'counts' in God's eye, given that I entered into it with no understanding of the gravity of what I was doing, the permanence, the commitment I didn't really believe in, while I was a little drunk, and all the time so gutted about losing the girl I'd been infatuated with for years.. I was so lacking in self-esteem and hope, that I thought I'd never find anyone again who'd want me.. at least my fiancee actually **did** want me.. might as well.. - how can that count as vows taken seriously? Would He forgive me and set me free from this? It's going to take me ages to figure this one out!

 

At least I've now got a GREAT excuse why I haven't made my mind up yet. I can say "I had real problems reconciling divorce with my personal beliefs" and no-one can *reasonably* argue with that.. you have to respect other people's beliefs (or appear to!) don't you?

 

Any answers to any of my questions would be very welcome.. back to the dithering... I mean soul-searching...

[Ditherer]

*sigh* .. I feel a mixture of huge regret that I've been such a fool, tinged with a slight feeling life has conned and tricked me.. but I know I've only got myself to blame.

 

But maybe there *IS* a way out? I've had a quick look around for the C of E's official position on divorce, and it looks like they may have mellowed on it in recent years. I have to bow to superior intellects on this, no? On the one hand I think my personal interpretation of what the Bible says should come before whatever 'Organised Religion' (which I've never been comfortable with) says .. on the other hand these people have studied all this far more than I ever will .. do I accept they've got it right? Or do I have to abandon the C of E and find another branch of Christianity that seems more correct?!!

 

I've always suspected the harsh literal interpretation of the Bible suited the old days - like imposing strict rules to grab some semblence of order from an unruly chaotic disorder (getting some sort of civilisation from the unholy mess a couple of thousand years ago) - like cracking down with Zero Tolerance if a jail is out of control. Then, when things have settled down, there's time to add a bit more flexibility as time goes by, examing individual grievances and sorting out perceived injustices, amending the rules to suit everyone more fairly. Maybe that's God's plan? There are other issues where the Bible seems at odds with what's generally considered acceptable in todays 'enlightened' society (treatment of women or gays for example) - or have we simply 'lost our way'? I still cling optimistically to the view that the Bible suited the times 1000s of years ago, but we could be free to interpret things more freely in light of modern advances?

 

It needs a lot of thought and prayer, I guess. Maybe I'm going to have to ask for some sort of sign, much as I don't really like to. But if He's given me some before, why not now?

 

Wow, I wasn't expecting it to all get THIS heavy. Mysterious Ways indeed!

[Ditherer]

I feel like I've been suckered because I didn't read the small-print on the contract

 

A strange thing just happened, or did it? I was alone in the house, alone in my thoughts, lying quietly on the bed thinking things over. I started thinking I was really going to need a sign that I was within my rights to leave and divorce if that's what I genuinely felt was RIGHT in my heart.. surely marriage has to be acceptable BOTH to man and God? Who would go along with it, if there was no possible way out to fall back on? Wouldn't most people simply say "to heck with that!" and live together 'in sin' instead? It has to work for society as a whole... so a sign would be good..

 

any sign would do, but the sooner the better.. ..within a minute the phone rang.. the only call of the day so far.. from someone who doesn't normally call at this time of day!! Is that weird? I have a hard time accepting that's a sign from above, as much any sceptic would, but it makes you wonder, no?

 

[Ditherer]

Looks like I've scared off everyone. Yup, I'm God-fearing enough that I'd put up with things like this forever more if I really had to.

 

But it occured to me.. if I pray for the wisdom to handle it correctly and follow the right path, and then still feel that leaving is right.. then it HAS to be right, yes? He wouldn't let me do the wrong thing if I ask Him not to let me?!!

[Becoming]

D--If you're gonna start theologizing, then at least read the whole Bible for yourself first instead of looking up random passages and what internet sources (many of which are unreliable) say about the topic du jour. You can skip all the strange stuff in Deuteronomy, but read the Bible for yourself and then you'll be in a better position to decide for yourself about what God's will is.

 

It sounds like you want someone, anyone to tell you what to do. And no one can. You have to do this one on your own.

 

Your God seems like a Santa Claus God who's keeping a list of naughty and nice, adding all up at the end so that if you get the magic number, bing!, you're in. The whole Bible tells us of a God who loves us enough to want to be in relationship with us, enough to give us free will to choose what we will do with our life, enough to love us even when we choose wrongly.

 

Yes, we'll be judged. In love with love in accord with how we love. Not some magic 70's song co-dependent kind of love but real love. Understanding what love is seems to take a lifetime to learn, and even then, it seems we fall far short. Yet God still loves us.

[FWIW]

I think you're reaching the right conclusions, Dith.

 

Perhaps you should take a look at

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/socialpublic/gs1361.html :

"But we do not hold the view that when a marriage has completely failed, it continues to subsist in a shadowy fashion: we believe that it can be said in a literal sense of two living people that they were married and are no longer married"

 

.. times have changed! If the marriage has genuinely broken down beyond repair and The State allows for divorce, it seems that The Church is OK with it too. There remains a possibility that God Himself may yet disagree, but if the Church is that out of step with God there's something seriously wrong somewhere!

[Ditherer]

Thanks Becoming and FWIW,

OK I've worked my way through the religous angle in my head, and it's no longer an issue. In fact there are no longer any good reasons to delay The Decision, no good excuses really (despite having found some depressing reading today, some dismal statistics about the impact of divorce : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce - scary, but it wouldn't deter me). I can't blame some remaining yearning for the affair, the difficulty of 'escaping', the 'best time to leave'... none of it. If I feel I *have* to go, I will find a way. Even the clearing/sorting/tidying could be all sorted in a week or two if I put my mind to it. No more excuses. No more clouding the issue.

 

One by one I've finally peeled away all the layers of the onion of uncertainty (!) and have arrived at the single core issue - the quality of the 'friendship' that should be the foundation-stone of my marriage relationship. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. None of the hassles after leaving, or the uncertainty about the future, none of the 'dither-fodder' matters. It's clear and simple : Do I, or don't I, enjoy the friendship with my wife, do I believe in it, am I happy with it, or am I just scared and clinging on to it, halfhearted?

How good or how bad is it, really? Have I got the partner that suits me more than so-so, or am I enduring a significantly-less-than-ideal? Do I take this chance to leave and carve out another life for myself, or 'settle' for good? What faith do I have in my future here?

 

I had written a LOT on this today, but I'll stick to the nearly-new bits, and save you from the stuff that's a re-hash of earlier posts I've already made here. I just needed to summarise the present situation for myself. I doubt anyone will have the interest to be following this... but..

 

Have I mentioned how it's such a pain in the neck that I feel I *ought*to* or *should* appreciate my wife just because she has undoubtedly many fine qualities - a pretty face, a sense of humour and a 'heart of gold' for example. But how can you force yourself to appreciate all these blessings when there's simply no spark? If the best closeness there ever was (in the begining) was simply the newness of it all and the drawing-together qualities of a sexual relationship? There are lots of people in the world who are fairly attractive in their own way and have some shared sense of humour and a heart of gold, but if you don't click... then you simply can't force it, can you? Does it make any sense whatsoever to marry someone like that, or remain married when the relationship simply isn't working? It's as if the world is pointing the finger at me and saying "you should be happy with what you've got".. but I'm not.. it's a horribly sad feeling.

 

I know marriages have their good days and bad days, nothing goes to plan 100%, but my expectation of marriage is that ON AVERAGE it must be worth having - the TYPICAL day should be at least pleasant. The whole 'working at it' thing we hear so much about, that applies during the bad times to get things back to normal - rather than being a typical everyday scenario. If, overall, more days are unpleasant than good, then what's the point? It's not worth it, is it? It has to be reasonably good on balance.

 

So is that enough reason to end a marriage - she's not my 'best friend'? I think it is. It sounds like a pretty poor and vague reason on the face of it, but the more I think about how I feel.. the more sense it makes. I should never have married her in the first place, really, although I'm glad of the good things that have come out of it.

 

Even if I *try* to get closer and feel happier, I still can't imagine enjoying talking to her. This is the fundamental failing of the relationship. I simply don't want to share experiences and opinions with her. There's no connection. I can't generate the warmth I want to feel for someone when I don't respect them enough or care what they think. Yes I could consciously decide to stay, but I just can't consciously decide to enjoy her companionship. The best friendship she has to offer simply doesn't seem right for me. That's why this is so upsetting, it's been SO close, and yet so far from my ideal. So close that it explains why it's lasted so long to this point, and makes me question why I can't carry on like that. But so far that I can see how it's been wrong all this time, and I know it'll never get better. The question is : Can I stand another xx years that are no better than the xx years I've had? How good has it been, at best? I know I've had some pretty poor years, just miserably plodding on, mildy depressed, always yearning for more. But there have been some good times. I *believe* these good times were the times when I'd accepted my fate and chosen to just get on with it, accepting I'll never have the relationship I've always dreamt of, and losing myself in hobbies and solo activities to make the best of life... relying on male friends for the frienship that's lacking in my marriage. Well that's crap, isn't it? Unless I'm being selective about how I remember the best of times (I doubt it) then I have to conclude that's NO WAY to conduct a marriage. If my wife isn't my best friend, then she shouldn't be my wife. I want to get along with my partner like a best friend. I haven't got that, and I've never had it. I see *some* other couples that have that, and that's what I want. Maybe I'll never find it, but I feel I *have* to go looking... or rather make myself available for it. If I stay in this marriage, I've ZERO chance of it, for the rest of my life.

 

She needs to know what's going on in my head, and I need to know how she'll feel once I've explained my ambivilance. I can't deal with this on my own, I can't bear this deception any longer, although I'll never own up to the 'affair' or any of the other numerous things she doesn't know about me (what basis is THAT for rescuing it?!). I'm 100% clear it's time to talk. I need to point out how bad things are, ask her how she feels, ask her what chance she thinks we have. Is she happy? Will she be happy to carry on, after I've explained how confused I am? I need to get her to agree that she talks to her best friend for hours on the phone, I talk to mine for hours, but we don't connect like that with each other. She MUST be able to agree about that. Then I explain I'm not sure I can carry on like that, I have to get away to sort out my feelings. This way she'll know she's done nothing wrong, and I'm not after anyone else in particular, but I'm trying to work out what's important to me - I'm having a problem figuring it out while I'm still in the middle of it. Hopefully there'll be less hurt this way - she won't blame herself, and may understand it's just my own issues I'm dealing with. If she believes in the marriage and still wants it then she'll stay hopeful and wait for me to 'realise what I'd be missing' etc. If she's glad for the chance to break up (and has been too scared to say so) then at least I'll know! This is the answer.. tell her how messed up it all is, and maybe she'll decide FOR ME!! If she blows up and tells me to get lost, at least I'll know I was honest about how I felt and SHE couldn't handle THAT.

 

I had hoped that I'd be so sure one way or the other, that I'd be able to either leave after little discussion, or decide I'm better off and never ever mention any of this. But I'm still right in the middle, sitting on the fence. The only reasonable thing to do is have the decency to tell her, and ask her how SHE feels. This has to be a joint decision, to make any sense at all.

 

I must crack on with the tidying, just in case I need to get out quick... and yet that feels like I've already given up and I'm actually planning to leave. That's why I've kept putting it off.. I avoid doing anything tedious if I'm sure I really need to do it. But this tidying is well worth doing anyway..

 

... still caught in a dither-loop then... ... but I'm sensing it's all coming to a head before too much longer...

[lurker2006]

Wow! I feel for your wife. Pack your stuff and move already. You would not only be doing good for you, but you would be doing wonders for your wife. What it must be like for her to married to someone who has no feelings for her whatsoever! Time for you to come clean with her. She deserves that because not only have you wasted your time with someone you don't care for, but you have wasted hers also. Yeah, it may hurt leaving but trust me, it won't take long for her to realize how grand life can be without your gloom in the house. You don't even care to know what she does with her days, then you shouldn't be there to begin with. Not to hard of a decision to make. As my grandfather use to say "P**s or get off the pot!"

 

I wish you the best and your wife the very best.

[brokenherz]

One of you has to start separating.

 

There is no way she is happy either in this relationship. I guarantee you that.

[lilmoma1973]

 

Why did you marry her it wasn't that you loved her? I think you was afraid of being alone and settled for what you had at the time... Why do you stay you already said that you didn't like her voice or her hair nothing? If you don't want to be there then leave ,she has sensed what you are feeling and that is why she acts the way she does!! Women aren't stupid they can tell when their men are straying and can sense things like that!!! You both are unhappy why stay.. Why didn't you leave and be with OW she wanted you to there was your chance ? Why didn't you take it?

[Adacus]

My story is somewhat similar to Dith's (spent some time going through the whole thread yesterday).

 

I married my wife 3 years ago - I love her tremendously. Last year, she stated that she wanted to become pregnant. While I've always been a bit dubious about having children, I started to have serious doubts about becoming a parent. To add fuel to the fire, I also became wrapped up in an emotional affair with another woman (didn't know there was a term for it until yesterday). Nothing took root in regards to that relationship, but between the affair and my doubts about becoming a parent with my wife, I realized that my marriage was suffering some major issues. I then started to ponder whether should continued to stay married.

 

After this point, my wife and I began arguing very often - obviously because I was having issues with our marriage that I wasnt expressing. I finally expressed my concerns to my wife and we started seeing a counselor. Counseling didn't resolve much for us (we attended sessions for about 5 months), and it just came time for me to stew in my indecivness by myself. As much as I'm unsure about my relationship with my wife, at this point staying in our home is only torturing us both.

 

So I decided to move out. This was a really hard decision - and I flip-flopped a couple of times with it. Is it harder to leave or harder to stay and work on your marriage? Some would call me a coward for not toughing it out (my wife would be included there). But where my indeciviness exists is in whether these issues are generated by myself (which I can try addressing), a problem with our marriage/communications (which is also addressable) or fundamental incompatiiblities that can never be "fixed." I don't know (reality is, it's probably a little bit of "all of the above"). Obviously, something needs to change - whether you commit to staying the course and working on it, or commit to leaving. Anything else is abusive to you and your wife.

[Ditherer]

WOW! Four replies.. I'm impressed.. and very grateful. Thanks!!

I've only just logged in for a quick look, so I'll not be writing much tonight (is that a sigh of relief I hear over my modem?!)

 

lurker2006 - many thanks, and I agree (although I'm too feeble to take action just yet).

brokenherz - you're right too. It remains to be seen, if we end up talking properly, whether she'll ever be happy with me again. That makes talking a very scary prospect, but it almost certainly has to be done.

lilmoma1973 - I think my answers lie in my volumes of posts here already, LOL. I *was* SO CLOSE to leaving (but some gut instinct was delaying it, I admit), but then I got dumped. I'm glad I haven't done anything 'rash' (and glad there wasn't any adultery - even if I felt a bit short-changed at the time, hehe) and I'm glad I've had all this extra time to dither, even though it's a horrible state to be trapped in. I don't intend to stay like this for much longer - it's a waste of precious life.

Adacus - I'm impressed you read the whole thing, sorry to hear you've been there too. You're much stronger than I am, to have dealt with it as you have. My best wishes to you.. I hope you end up happy - you stand a good chance if you continue to deal with it head-on, I would expect.

 

Not a lot I can add tonight. It's midnight, my head is thumping, I know I'm dithering because it's SO PRECISELY 50/50 (if it was even 45/55 I'd have made a move by now)... it's time for bed. Cheers

[Becoming]

The whole 'working at it' thing we hear so much about, that applies during the bad times to get things back to normal - rather than being a typical everyday scenario.

 

No, it doesn't. It's an everyday kind of thing. If you really think this, then that could be part of the problem.

 

A relationship is a growing thing that needs nurturing like a garden if it's ever to blossom into what you'd hoped for. You may be wanting an orchid, which is darn fussy, but if you're only willing to mow the lawn once a month, you ain't gonna get no orchid! You'll get whatever comes up and survives--dandelions and fleabane and other occasional weeds. But if you're not going to put the care into nurturing the garden, you can't grouse because you didn't get an orchid.

 

Of course, your wife may not be an orchid. She may just be a marigold or daisy--nice enough flowers, just not what you'd really hoped for.

 

I understand the friendship thing. But if you want a friend, you gotta be a friend, as the trite, but true, saying goes.