Stay or go? What on earth do I do now?

[FWIW]

Dith, I bet you're still trying to decide to leave or stay based upon the outcomes, aren't you? All this 'single core issue' stuff is the PRESENT, not the future. You can't decide how much you love your wife without a good idea of how much you could love someone else.

 

The whole problem is this : how do you judge how good something is (keep it or not) when the only way to decide its value is to compare it to the alternatives? Those alternatives only exist in the future once you've already made up your mind!

 

I'd love to hear a good solution to that!

 

I don't think you'll risk losing what you've already got unless it gets to be a lot more hassle than it's worth, or if you find another way to become convinced you'll be happier away from her, alone or not.

[Ditherer]

Becoming, there are limits. Too much of anything is too much... if it really needs THAT much, it's not worth the effort.

If course, a small effort here and there, even every day, might be fine for the reward. But we all make our own 'value judgements' as to what's reasonable.

 

I'm sorry if you disagree (I'd welcome debate on this) but a constant STRUGGLE just for the sake of Not Being Alone cannot be worth it, and falls woefully short of anything I'd call Real Love.

 

I understand the friendship thing. But if you want a friend, you gotta be a friend, as the trite, but true, saying goes.

 

That got me thinking, I'll give you that. I guess I just don't think it's worth it. You get what you give, yes.. but sometimes you can give far more than you'll ever get back.. and if it's not enough.. what then?

 

Thanks

[Ditherer]

FWIW, you've hit the nail on the head there.. are you in a similar predicament?! Thanks..

 

Yesterday there was a similar situation on TV, my wife said "I think better the devil you know.. the grass isn't greener"... hint or what! In the programme the one having to choose decided to stay... but the partner knows what's going on.. how great for him to know she doesn't love him as much as he thought. But on the bright side, it's obvious she could choose and did choose him, even if it was a painful close thing, she still choose *him*. Maybe I could use that one day, if we've discussed things then I decide to stay!

 

It's dawned on me what this EXACT 50/50 things means : It's only HALF as good as I want/need my relationship to be! Obvious really, but sometimes you don't see something from a particular angle until it just hits you with clarity after a good night's sleep! And it'll probably never get much over 60% either, ratings-wise, even if I put my heart into 'making it work' like I've tried to all these years.

 

So why limit myself to a half-portion, when the Whole Thing MUST be Out There Somewhere, and it's just that I'm scared of having nothing at all while I search? (although I've had practically Nothing At All here for over a year now anyway and I've coped).

... and also it's obvious how 'babe' was the OTHER HALF of the puzzle, the exact equal and opposite, the missing pieces that I've yearned for all this time, but ALSO only HALF good enough. It just shows how NEITHER of them were enough, and if I want the complete picture I've got to carry on looking - as a single man. Every time a find myself missing her and yearning to carry on getting to know her I should turn that around to another direction and harness its power more positively - if I want HER back so much, just think how good it would feel if I found someone even better! (she was the first person to show any interest in me for xx years - what are the chances she was actually the best I'd ever get?!)

 

If I want it that much, it's up to me to go find it. After sorting myself out, of course.

 

[Ditherer]

A little row tonight about my divorced-and-remarried mates (she thinks I'm going to follow their example! How perceptive she is!) and she stormed off to bed with "we'll need to get divorce papers this year I reckon"..

 

.. and I'm not scared by that. If it's going to happen, bring it on.

 

[Becoming]

If it's going to happen, bring it on

.

 

Is this what you want? For her to file to free you from the guilt that would ensue if you actually went ahead and took responsibility for the situation?

 

Only you know can know if you really gave it your all. It sounds like you just can't do the work of this relationship any longer because it will be for nought anyway as far as you're concerned. If so, walk away in a caring and supportive way and continue to be a good dad. Then get on with your own life, man!

[brokenherz]

Man we are on page 11 here and you haven’t said or felt anything different than on page 1 about your situation. Listening to you is tiring. You shouldn’t tell LS how you feel but her. Get a mediator if you can’t talk to her.

 

I’m telling you it is a fact that if you separate your thoughts and feelings will change. My husband left me after 15 years. We’re separated now since 8 month. He says he doesn’t know yet if he is happier. He says he misses me but some things he doesn’t. He has a lot of identity issues that I can’t help him with and I know we wont get together for a while or maybe never. He also has a girlfriend since 3 month and I’m 8 month pregnant. Meanwhile I suffer so much but I will be all right again.

 

You don’t give yourself a chance and her either. Are you scared that she is the one that will leave you at the end? You both are not happy. For some reason I think you are wasting her time and your time. I wonder how she would react knowing how you feel about your marriage? If you stay than you will feel the same on page 20 unless she has enough.

[Adacus]

Yeah, Dith. You're waiting for your wife to make this decision for you. You may not recognize it as such, but its what you're waiting for. And take it from me, I can tell the signs - not only because of this thread, but I was in the same boat and going down the same path.

 

I finally came to grips that I needed to leave. I still love my wife - I think I always will. But while living in a state of indecision is fine for me, it's not fine for her. As hard as it is to be objective about something like this, I wasn't treating her fairly. I needed to step up - and if it wasnt to resolve working on our marriage, then it was to leave and not continue to put us both through an awful half-existence. Will we get back together? I don't know. But leaving is better than where we were.

 

You need to own up to this, and just make the decision to leave - end of story. You may come back together - but you'll never know until you make some decision to move forward. It will be healthy for the sake of everyone's mental health (including us).

 

Said in kind...

 

Ada

[Ditherer]

It's just getting worse and worse, I can hardly look at her, and she's hating it : "I'm trying my best and I just don't know what you want any more" - this morning.

 

This afternoon we were in a cafe and who was there.. one of the other girls from the course where I met my short-lived 'babe'... the other one that's ignoring me too.. so I was in an awkard spot.. I looked her way, ready to say hi, but she ignored me. My wife noticed all this, and several hours later (!) quizzed me about it. I told her exactly who she'd been, and got interrogated about the course.. all sorts of jealousy crap came spilling out and she probably realised how sly and secretive I can be (have had to be - I don't enjoy it).. we had a little row which ended for a moment with "We're really growing apart, aren't we?".

 

Ten minutes later and another little disagreement.. she stormed out on her own to go for a drive and calm down.. think things over.. to decide "what she wants to do with her life". Apart from hoping she got back in one piece, I just put the kids to bed and watched some TV, not unduly worried! Our daughter asked me "Do you think she'll split up with you?" .. how awful is that?! I almost got a bit tearful after that, mainly the fear of the unknown and not wanting to see my wife get so hurt.. but I've accepted it's going to happen and I can't really stop it. There's no going back.

 

It's got to the stage where, like so many other things in my life, I can see it all just unfolding around me, while I go with the flow and just let things just come to pass. Take it in my stride.. get what I want without lifting a finger? Could it really be that simple? This miserable year (preparing for this, by destroying her love for me) has got to have some pay-off! Yep, I sound pretty cold and ruthless about all this.. I'm not proud of it.. but I haven't been able to find another way to get to this point. I'll do my best to keep things as calm as possible, I'm not a complete b****rd.

 

So.. and hour and a half later she comes back, said nothing but "good night" and up she went to bed! A minute later she came down for something and said she didn't want us "staying together just for the kids" and that was that. As usual, I said absolutely nothing. Haven't even got the balls to say a word. I wish I could honestly say I hate myself for it. But I can't. I'm just numb, weary, and rather sad. It's underway whether I like it or not. I can't bring myself to try and rescue it, if that was even possible.

 

I get the feeling I'm losing something I may never have again, but it hasn't really worked so far, has it? What will be will be. I can't believe I can be so casual about whole course of people's lives - my own wife and kids - but I'm resigned to it.

 

You'd probably have to have been here to understand.

[Ditherer]

btw, thanks guys for the recent replies. This is all getting a bit too much to take in.. head's spinning with it all.

[Guest 1]

Why are you still wondering if you should leave your marriage? It sounds like you already have except for physically moving out. You have walked out on her physically (no sex), emotionally (you withhold love from her) and mentally (your mind is definitely elsewhere). I don't think you should move out for your sake so much as for hers and your child's. From what I've read between the lines, your wife is most likely not caring about her looks or about anything else because she knows that nothing she can do will make a difference with you and she probably just quit trying.

 

To tell you the truth, once she realizes what a relief it will be to be away from you, she'll be wondering why she didn't boot your butt out the door a long time ago. Another thing, in all your rambling, you didn't make any mention of what your wife wants or what she needs. Did it ever occur to you that she may think many of the same things about you? You are very self-centered and uncaring about anyone else. I pity the poor girl who ends up with you because it will all be about you and no one else.

[Ditherer]

Thanks Guest 1.. I broadly agree with you... except..

 

your wife is most likely not caring about her looks or about anything else because she knows that nothing she can do will make a difference with you and she probably just quit trying.

 

Actually she's lost a bit of weight and is presenting herself fairly well - I still have moments where I find her attractive (when she's not screaming and swearing at the kids). There are times when I'd happily sleep with her.. very happily.. but I don't want to complicate things. I don't want to use her. Does that make me 'self-centered and uncaring' ??

 

You are very self-centered and uncaring about anyone else. I pity the poor girl who ends up with you because it will all be about you and no one else.

 

If you say so.. you don't know me.. and as I've said before, a lot of this thread is exaggerated to make the point more clearly and to convince myself I'm doing the right thing. If I was as self-centered as you think, why would I be agonising about this? I'd have left ages ago.

 

Last year I found someone who made me feel things I'd never felt so strongly, and it changed me, I felt what I'd been missing for so long. Ok, it didn't last and it wasn't real (for her), but I genuinely care (still do) about her and I just can't believe I was self-centered about me and her. I may have tried to write her off and think as badly of her as possible (to ease my pain) but I haven't convinced myself. I'd still be absolutely thrilled if she got in touch, although I've just about managed to get myself to believe she'd be better off with someone else. I just hope she has a happy life. I'd like to be a part of it, but it wasn't to be... and I can't think badly of her because I understand how she must have felt.

 

I WANT a relationship where it feels right and I'm not taking the P, coasting along, making no effort because I can't be bothered, etc.. I WANT a relationship I'm happy to work at if I need to.

 

Thanks for yours views, I'll listen to any... all welcome... but I'm not necessarily going to agree! I'm glad *I* believe in myself, or I'd be even more messed up

[Ditherer]

Imagine what a fraud I feel, signing a V card that proclaims my undying love...

 

I'm starting to tidy up my stuff, the time has come to clear up the mess that's accumulated over the last decade or two.

 

And when I'm ready.. I'm currently fairly sure we'll talk.

 

And then all hell will break loose!

[Ditherer]

I was watching some drama on TV where someone was having an affair. I suddenly found myself thinking "I'd never do that to someone I love".. which really proves I don't love my wife enough to make it worth carrying on. First time I've cried for a while Maybe it's just the guilt coming out? No, doesn't really feel like that.

 

Still terrified at the thought of fixing this mess...

[Ditherer]

No change. I'm getting really stressed with it all, feeling tired and listless. I've been considering going to see my doc to talk about it. I don't know what good that would do - it's not like I want to end up on meds.

 

It's still too cold for me to face sorting out all the stuff around the house.. also feeling trapped because my escape route is still blocked by my parents being in the middle of moving.. they should have a room for me.. but my dad tried to put me off when I joked about him getting my new room ready for me. He doesn't want the extra hassle of my marriage officially coming to an end (even though it's over in my mind already). I didn't press the issue, he's got enough to worry about, and I'm not ready to go anyway.

 

I hate the trapped feeling.. but at the end of the day though, the only thing trapping me is my own inaction.

[Becoming]

I hate the trapped feeling.. but at the end of the day though, the only thing trapping me is my own inaction.

 

Well said. Can you not live on your own? Don't want to? Or what?

[Ditherer]

Can you not live on your own? Don't want to? Or what?

 

It's not so much the living on my own afterwards, it's the tearing free, first!

 

Not sure I can do it without parental support, and I can't add that stress to their lives just yet. Ideally I should be able to face the whole thing on my own, I'd have more self-respect if I did, but the whole thing is too huge for someone like me.. a bit feeble, never having lived on my own before.. etc.

 

I've been talking to someone who left her hubby and got divorced, and she's very supportive that I have to be true to myself and enjoy my life. But she has a) a good job, so no money worries b) her child, whereas I'd be leaving mine c) someone to run to, a new man. And with all those comparative advantages, she still found the whole thing almost unbearable. I'd like to think I'd cope, but I just don't know without trying... the trial sep. still sounds the way to go.

[Becoming]

Thanks for your honesty. I understand about the scariness of living alone. I had to do it when moving for a job, left my children behind w/ H who was selling house. It was hard.

 

But during those months I also learned I actually liked living on my own. It was a pleasant surprise. Just a consideration . . .

[Ditherer]

Could it be a sign?

 

First a fairly mild coincidence. It's not often that I leave the office mid-morning, but I was out and about last week. Heading back to work I was walking past the very lawyers' offices where I'd been to ask about how divorce would affect me legally and financially.. and my wife just happened to drive past at that moment.

 

Ok, nothing to 'write home about', but try this second one!

 

Driving back late one night after a meal (which I'd lied about being a lad's night out but actually both my friends' partners came along - and I couldn't imagine my wife fitting in at all, but she might have wanted to go) I was wondering about asking Him Up There for a sign. I decided I wouldn't.. I feel I should be clear enough in my own mind what I should do without looking for rare random events to blame.. but all the same I was thinking very clearly and strongly (as if dropping a hint!) that a sign would nonetheless be very welcome if He would oblige. Would I be doing the right thing terminating a marriage that felt hopeless (or would "working at it" somehow work out well in the end, despite my grave misgivings about how it's been so far and ever could work out). Was I within my rights to leave, would it work out ok? Something unusual would do as a sign, and what I had in mind was a sighting of a particular nocturnal creature that I'd only ever seen about three times before in my life. That's pretty rare. Not impossible for Him to rustle up on demand, but unusual enough to astonish me. It didn't happen. Nothing really unusual happened that night, apart from seeing a police car in the middle of nowhere where I'd not have expected to see one.. a van heading up a very quiet lane I'd have put money on being deserted.. and the second cat of the day running across the road in front of me. Ah well...

 

.. but the very day after.. I was driving the family back home in the evening.. down a quiet lane.. "Stop!" shouted my wife, "Go back!". I reversed a bit, looked over into a field and there it was - the very rare wildlife I'd been hoping to spot the night before!! How strange is that? It's the first time I've ever seen one of these things with her, I'd been on my own the other times. Strange as it is, I can't really accept it as a sign. The fact that I didn't *specifically* pray for it wasn't the main thing, what discounts it was that it was a day late, and I wouldn't have seen it if my wife hadn't. Or perhaps it's meant to mean that.. yes.. I should abandon the hopeless relationship BUT not quite yet (which is my plan anyway - it's STILL too cold to sort things out and my parents haven't finished moving house yet).. and it will be HER that ends it (as I expect her to, when I tell her how I feel)... ?

 

You've already thought "What a nutter!" perhaps.. but I don't feel particularly mad.. I take this with a pinch of salt. Odd though, isn't it?

[midlifecrazy]

OK, Dith, I'm probably the last person in the world who should be giving you advice but I'm going to give it a try anyway.

 

From here it looks as if you are using every possible excuse to put off what seems inevitable. "God won't like it, parents have issues, baby, it's cold outside". That's all a cop out. If you said you were worried about the effects of leaving on your wife and kids that would have some validity. But through most of your posts (and I think I've read all of them, lots of time on my hands!) I think you've always indicated you felt that in the end they would be fine. Please don't fall back on that as an excuse now. I'm not trying to be harsh, just telling it like it is.

 

Concern for your kids is the main reason I've refrained until now from what I'm telling you now. You most likely know my feelings on family, but I think this is one of those cases where more harm will be done to the children if this situation continues without resolution.

 

Also I feel bad for your wife, she's got to be going through hell, knowing how you feel. I mean me and MW have our ups and downs but we sound positively blissful compared to you guys. Did I understand you correctly? Did you tell her all about your Emotional Affair babe? That's got to be salt in the wounds. I suspect your wife is actually quite a bit like you and somewhat of a ditherer herself, else SHE would not have stayed through all you are putting her through.

 

Sounds as if she's aware things are dreadfully close to being over. It's time for you to be the man. Out of respect for the affection you had for her when you married, out of the necessity of getting your children out of unhealthy circumstances, it's time to screw your nerve up to the sticking point and get it done.

 

You need to do the trial sep and you need to do it now. You're not happy with her and you've convinced yourself you never can be. Set her free. Rent an apartment, have the talk and move out. Hell, let her read your posts if you have to (but that will probably burn all your bridges and trash any hope of reconciliation, so be careful). You may decide you want to go back. Just realize that if you're free, so is she. Her spirit may soar like an eagle once the burden of worry is finally lifted from her.

 

Time to move on, man. Good luck!

 

(P.S. maybe THIS is your sign)

[Ditherer]

Thanks for your reply MLC. That's the kind of thing I want to hear at the moment!

 

I'm still having a hard time justifying "letting go of a relationship" which could, in theory, work to some degree.. although I feel it'll never be enough. But I *could* settle, if I had no "ambition".. if I could live with the unfulfillment.. I keep wondering if ANY marriage would get this stale if allowed to rot a litle - by not working at it. But I don't think I'd LET it get this bad if I had always believed in it from the start, unlike this lousy relationship where carrying it on would be false.. I'd be knowing that it would be deceitful.. knowing my heart really wasn't in it. So.. yes.. I know it's inevitable that I'll finally reach the end of my tether and go.. and the sooner the better.

 

I still over-analyse the relationship I have here. There's the physical : what she looks like, how nice is it to be close to someone, sex, intimacy. This has never been a problem, it's exactly what has kept us together. But as life goes on, this gets less and less important.

Then there's the other part of the equation : the "meeting of minds"... this is where the house of cards falls down. I simply don't enjoy her company or look forward to it, I don't respect her, I don't feel what I've always wanted to feel from a partner. The best she can offer me is "companionship".. and that only gets as good as simply "having someone there". Simply having a presence by my side is just not enough. What's the point? To anyone who doesn't agree I'd say this - haven't you ever been stuck at a meal table next to someone you don't connect with? Didn't it spoil the meal? Weren't you glad when it was all over, as conversation was so dull and forced? Would you like to have to eat next to this person for the rest of your life?! Yes I know.. I married her.. it's my fault.. I thought I'd manage.. I thought I was lucky to have someone.. I thought that was as good as it gets.. I thought a little.. but not enough. Maybe I was too young, naive.. or plain old inexperienced to know how foolish I was. Please don't hold that against me now anyone, if I do rustle up the guts to call an end to it at last.

 

As for my excuses you list, I agree I've been dithering too long when it comes to the repercussions I have feared - the effects on all of us, and what people or deities might think. But the delay for the next month or two is reasonable to me.. there is a lot of sorting out to do.. and my favoured escape route is not available until my parents have moved. I don't think I could face a harder escape route, I'd rather wait.

 

In answer to your question - no I haven't told her anything about "babe", it would destroy her right now. By the way, the whole "babe" thing is now a distant memory that feels very unreal.. I can hardly believe it happened. It hasn't left me with any extra confidence either, I remain very doubtul that I'd ever find anyone again who would put up with me. I've had some very mild flirting with total strangers here and there recently which is nice, but actually managing to have and maintain a decent relationship is several orders of magnitude more difficult to succeed with. If I leave it's because I don't feel comfortable with my marriage and I feel there's nothing for it but to give up, it's hopeless... I will leave to face the world alone and hope for the best.. knowing I could end up just as alone as I'd feel if I stayed... but at least I'll have freedom to do what I want (whatever I can still afford!). I'm under no illusions that I could live it up and sleep around.. I'm not motivated by that.. I'm now very wary of falling for the wrong person again, the lovesick thing was madness.. the heartbreak was horrendous.. and I don't want to get trapped with the Wrong One again either. I don't relish the thought of either being dumped or having to dump again.. but I guess the risk is worth the potential rewards.. nothing ventured nothing gained. It would have to be someone almost Unbelievably Right.. and that seems rather unlikely at my age.. with what little I have to offer. I'm so tired now.. 11.45pm as I write this.. and I've got to log in and post it yet...

 

Thanks.

[Guest]

I'm a 44 year old woman who was married for 25 years to a man like you. He seemed content for many years but always thought he had settled for less than the perfect mate. He constantly had one eye out for his real Ms. Right. In the past 5 years he had 3 affairs. Each time he came back to tell me the grass was not greener on the other side. The first time I felt sorry for him, I asked if he felt neglected, did he fear getting old without adventures to look back on, was I not as attractive, etc.. He didn't know.

 

Something was missing. He was so sorry and apologetic I forgave him and we went on as before. I never felt the same though. After it happened again and again, I had to divorce him. Idiot that I am, I still love him. I took very good care of him all those years. I just kept losing more and more of my self respect, and my heart would break each time I found out he was straying again. When I filed he could hardly believe it. He just kept saying I know you love me. But in the end it wasn't enough to keep us together, both must want it. I am sad but relieved. He seems a bit happier though he is not seeing anyone special now, but I don't think he wanted the divorce, he really saw me as his safety net, provider of creature comforts for him in his old age, not as a soulmate.

[Ditherer]

The other day she swore at something.. and I dared to criticise... wow! She said "if I'm not your perfect wife then just go!"

 

Alright...!

 

Nothing much is left to stop me. I don't care what ANYONE would do or say if I went for the trial sep... apart from my kids of course.. but that can't be helped.

 

Mum and Dad have moved, have settled in, there are TWO spare rooms for me. The weather's finally perked up, I can now set about tidying things up, here.

 

All that's left are the usual nagging doubts, which I usually dismiss after thinking about it for a while... and the money worries.. but I'll just have to cope somehow. If I stay I'll have no money worries but a tedious dull life where I can't enjoy my financial situation.. if I go I'll be struggling but at least I'll have my freedom.

 

It's coming.. I can feel it...

[sophia34]

Oh...my...goodness. I've read this post in pieces (over two days...it's a veritable War and Peace of self-indulgent expression and desperation) with much the same horrified fascination I'd watch a house fire or car accident. There are enough emergency personnel available (Outcast, Becoming, FWIW, etc.) that I would only be in the way if I stepped in to try to help. Not to mention that the vicitim seems beyond help's reach, in any case.

 

But step it I will, although it may not be wise.

 

However, I thought I was "dithering" before I read this post. I thought I was in a situation where I didn't know whether to stay or go. However, reading this post puts things in a clearer perspective. I don't ever want to treat my significant other the way dithering has treated his wife--he is wonderful and deserves every ounce of honesty and respect I can give him.

 

He knows my feelings (that I'm "dithering") because I've TOLD him, through many tears on both our parts. And he has told me that he understands and that he doesn't want to lose me, but that he supports me in whatever decision I make.

 

How wonderful is he for saying that?

 

Dithering, you haven't given your wife even a chance of showing that to you (or maybe she has...I have to admit I scanned some parts of the post). You haven't been honest with her. Be honest with her, for the sake of the God you seem to spend so much time fearing. Then you two can work out the details of your staying together or separating together. It's much easier when the turmoil isn't all inside your head, but is honestly shared with the person that it really affects most. YOUR WIFE.

 

Not to say that I don't have some sympathy for you--I do. In fact I turned to this post to get some sympathy myself some time back, because I found myself in a very similar situation! But the difference is that I see my fiance for the wonderful person that he is. I could never lose respect for him the way you seem to have lost respect for your wife. He's a wonderful human being and he deserves everything I can give him, whether we're together or apart.

 

I would think the same could probably be said for your wife, if you'd give her the chance to be a participant in this decision, rather being made the unwitting target of it. Or, worse, being forced, through your own actions, to DO YOUR DIRTY WORK for you.

 

Might I repeat: Oh....my....goodness.

[Ditherer]

Thanks sophia34 for your comments. I'm too mixed up right now to write anything very coherent... but's it's always nice to see people take the time to chip in here.

 

I'm trying to admit to myself that it *IS* bad enough to leave, instead of always talking myself out of it. I know I don't love her enough - it makes a mockery of marriage, a travesty of the vows.. but it's all so complicated.. I'm so torn it hurts. And.. believe it or not there is other stuff I haven't even mentioned!

 

At this point I don't know if I could ever face "rescuing" the marriage, or even suceed if I wanted to.. so it's feeling very inevitable.. and yet it just seems to rumble on and on in this "comfortable rut".. which in fact is only comfortable when I'm at work or otherwise by myself.

 

One day.. one day I'll sort things.. and I'll do my best to let you all know how it all pans out.

 

thanks

[midlifecrazy]

So, okay Dith, have you decided for sure on the trial seperation idea. And if so what's your timetable for making the break? If you don't have one perhaps it's time make one. Think it over, study it (but not TOO long) then circle a date on the calendar to bail out. Then do it and let the chips fall where they may.