OLD and the paradox of choice

[CryForNoOne]

There have been many books and psychological studies conducted on the fallacy of choice as it pertains to consumer shopping. I believe the same exact thing applies to OLD. These numerous studies have demonstrated that when presented with nearly unlimited options, people almost universally experience much greater anxiety and usually end up less happy than if they were only presented a few choices. The classic example is being presented the choice of 31 flavors of ice cream versus just versus vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry. The anxiety stems from fear of making the wrong choice and regretting your decision. The people who were only given 3 choices consistently rate the "taste" of the ice cream higher than those who were given many many more choices. This seems to be hardwired into our DNA so there isn't much you can do about (unless you are exceptionally self aware) except to not put yourself in those situations.

 

I'm not a woman so I can't say I've got 31 flavors to choose from when I go online, but I definitely see behavior that is a byproduct of this phenomenon. I can't tell you how many times I've engaged in a convo, with long delays while she's juggling the other dozen guys who are no doubt messaging her simultaneously, where she responds with short but superficially interested answer to me asking her out like "Sounds great :-)" or "I'd love that" followed by complete radio silence when I try to confirm a day...

 

I met 2 women through OLD that I wound up developing substantial relationships with. One I was with for 3 years, and though it didn't work out in the end, I have wonderful memories and we have 3 year old daughter, both of which I wouldn't trade for anything. The other was (is) a FWB while we each recovered from bad breakups (mine was with the aforementioned). The former I met on OKC and the latter on Tinder. The common trait was that both had just signed up. It was like I was strawberry and their only other options were vanilla and chocolate. Our interaction prior to meeting was simple and direct. We exchanged about 20 messages, moved to cell texting, then met and had instant chemistry. None of the BS I seem to get from OLD "pros" like "Can you send me a pic with today's newspaper before we meet?". "We need to build a stronger rapport first"; or simply absurdly long delays between replies while they play the field. My favorite is "I'm really busy the next few weeks doing blah blah blah, can we meet next month?" Seriously??? I'm busy as f**k and barely have time to ever watch TV but unless I'm physically travelling out-of-state, I can pretty much find the time to meet anyone for a drink if I'm interested. Furthermore, I've been in several relationships with women who used that line when we first met, but six months into the relationship, I can't go one damn day with alone time without them trying to see me. So yes, that line is BS 90% of the time...

 

So this isn't meant to be an assault on women. I'm just pointing out the frustrating behavior I see as a byproduct of this paradox of choice. Sadly, I'd even say much of the behavior is well justified. There are many creeps and fakes out there so I completely understand why women are cautious to meet. They are risking much more by meeting strangers online as compared to men. But the fact remains, that from my personal experience, the most rewarding OLD experiences for HER were the ones that involved zero walls and zero game playing. Now it's entirely possible, I have selection bias. They might have really liked me right from the start so they let their guard down and it was destined to succeed. I'll never know. But there is a ton of empirical evidence that even when given literally thousands of choices, much more so than was ever possible in the history of mankind, people seem unhappier in relationships than ever. Why is that, other than for the paradox of choice? Something to reflect on if you've used OLD for a long time and are frustrated.

 

This whole topic is relevant for me right now because I have 3 dates lined up from OKC. #1 is "I'm busy blah blah blah, can we meet in September." #2 was a pre-screener that needed to get live pics and text for several days before agreeing to meet. #3 I messaged for the first time yesterday morning, the convo flowed naturally, and I had a confirmed date for Friday night by the afternoon. She is also new to OLD. I'm by far, most excited about #3 because, not only is she the most attractive, but its beginning exactly like my other two great OLD relationships did...

[staggerlee71]

ive been OLD. I'm a man. And I find myself in each of your three scenarios.

 

There are so many variables at play it hard to nail down why certain scenarios play out like they do. One thing I have learned is it is easy to get a date if she is interested. Just like in real life. Ive learned that if I'm trying to hard, she isn't interested. Women make it easy if they are.

 

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that choice is causing paralysis. Its more likely she feels there are better choices than you. Its not personal. your online.

 

BY now, I will surmise, that you have learned to stop chasing down scenario 1 and recognize them instantly as I'm not that interested.

 

while I understand scenario 2, if it get convoluted on the way to a meet, it might be that way going forward.

 

Jump on scenario three. Its the paradigm

[Miss Spider]

I wish OLD was this delicious man buffet for me that I keep hearing it supposedly is for other women

[staggerlee71]

LOL!!!

 

Awww, feeelings and estrogen get in the way!!

[CryForNoOne]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that choice is causing paralysis. Its more likely she feels there are better choices than you. Its not personal. your online.

That to me is the very definition of it. Expressing interest then disappearing if she feels a better choice has coming along. Yet next week, there she is, online again searching...

 

BY now, I will surmise, that you have learned to stop chasing down scenario 1 and recognize them instantly as I'm not that interested.

Absolutely. I've never chased scenario #1. I just roll my eyes when I get those responses. I'd almost rather they ghost. But it comes as no surprise that about 25% text me a few weeks later "Hey I've been offline for a while, work blah blah blah, but are you still interested in grabbing that drink?"

 

FWIW though, I think this one is a little different. I asked her if my daughter was a deal breaker and got no response so didn't even think twice. Then out the blue, she replies a few days later and said "I thought it would be, but we have a lot in common and I think it would be cool to meet after all but I'm busy and can't meet until Sep." I gave her my cell and she texted me the next morning and we've been chatting casually since. I'm not holding my breath as I've realized this is strictly a numbers game until the second date. Then it becomes real life.

 

Also I'm not really seeking advice. Just posting my thoughts. I'm pretty clear on the prospects of all 3 dates. I predict 1 possibly 2 will flake in the end.

[Sweetfish]

I wish OLD was this delicious man buffet for me that I keep hearing it supposedly is for other women

 

For women, online dating statistics show that a woman's desirability online peaks at 21. But, at 26, women have more online pursuers than men whereas, at 48, men have twice as many online pursuers as women.

10 Online Dating Statistics (for U.S.) You Should Know | eHarmony

 

Finally, to be 99% certain she'll receive a response, a woman must send 25 messages to men her own age.

A man will have to send 114.

 

The Number Of Messages Men Have To Send To Get A Response When Online Dating Is Absurd - Business Insider

 

 

Women, on the other hand, rate 80% of men as below average. Let me repeat: It’s women, not men, who have unrealistic standards for the “average” member of the opposite sex.

 

 

its a buffet...just don't like the selection.

[bluefeather]

I wish OLD was this delicious man buffet for me that I keep hearing it supposedly is for other women

 

Haha. I have never been to a buffet that had food I would call "delicious." But boy, was there choice!

 

CryForNoOne, go for the third one! She sounds ready, while the other two are either uninterested and just clowning around, or telling the truth and just not ready for dating atm (yet still on OLD, go figure)!

[Chilli]

Yeah , it's all over the OLD sites , see it at 100paces.

But hey , don't worry about that a few mths of it usually bring people back down to earth with a helluva a thud and the next minute they're writing on places like loveshack with burnout and giving up.

The reality is lucky to find one flavor in the end, read around , it's everywhere.

[Larryville]

There have been many books and psychological studies conducted on the fallacy of choice as it pertains to consumer shopping. I believe the same exact thing applies to OLD. These numerous studies have demonstrated that when presented with nearly unlimited options, people almost universally experience much greater anxiety and usually end up less happy than if they were only presented a few choices.

 

Choice, man I’ve processed this over and over. I’m thinking if I get on an OLD site is ever female “available” to me? No.

 

I’m a mixed race dude, non-religious, Libertarian, 50 plus years old, I make x- number of $$$ per year, I’m 5’9”, am dealing with health issues so not nearly as active.

 

There are an endless number of factors that apply to me. So when I get on a site I absolutely know, some people won’t date outside their race, some are hard core Christians, some still have kids, some are more active from volunteering to outdoor activities, political biases, food biases ect. I’m average height, some ladies like really tall guys. Education level, distance, career choices, look, style, communication style.

 

So when I READ profiles there are some women I know I have no shot at, so there is no choice. Just like we can only afford a car in our price range. That is why I drive 2 very nice but old cars.

 

Then there is my preferences, we all have them, for good or bad we own them.

 

Some examples: I won’t date anyone with a lot of tattoos especially very visible one. I work in a high profile place so whoever I date I would want them to attend special functions with VIP’s and I personally would not want a date of mine in a very nice dress but with tats showing. So those women are not part of anything I would “choose.”

 

Money: This is why I would not date someone younger (for the most part). Whoever I would date can’t be broke. So if they have limited education and skills and do not have a “career” I would not consider them.

 

Young kids still at home (when they are in their late 40’s and 50’s) I don’t want to have to compete with their kids for time.

 

Yes, unfortunately I am a long time OLD dude and my biases have grown as they do for so many others.

 

Some guys ignore those biases if the woman he is pursuing has a great body. I don’t want my time (or theirs) wasted. Yes my biases cost me, I could be passing up a nice lady but I simply don’t want to waste anyone’s time.

 

Bottom line do we have as many “choices” as we think we do?

[Larryville]

Still thinking about this choice thing.

 

If a man in his 30’s gets on an OLD site… he is overweight, little or no education, and limited social skills. Grew up in an abusive home, suffers from depression. His profile photos are of him in front of a less than marginal looking home, wearing a T-shirt, scruffy beard, drinking a beer. His profile riddled with spelling errors and bad punctuation… and on and on… On any given OLD site does this dude have “choices?”

 

I’ve gone back and read articles on this issue and the TED Talk video “The Paradox of Choice” and I think that “choice” does not apply to OLD. It’s more of a series of garage sale listings or generic classified ads because out of the hundreds of thousands or millions of people online there is only likely a tiny percentage of people who will accept YOU as you are. Your looks, your personality, your faults, your moods, your flaws ect.

 

The comparison to “the grocery store” or choosing a new car analogy is so far off because everything is not available to all of us.

 

When we decide to put ourselves out there our best hope is to be “found” like going to an antique store and discovering something valuable.

 

Those of us (and I was one of those people for years) lamenting online dating failures and how hard it is have a very selfish view one of entitlement.

 

If you are let’s say a white guy, 6’ 4” tall, Master’s degree in a lucrative field, good looking, all of your hair, good shape, no debt, living in an awesome home, great vacations, good friends, kids (if he is older grown, successful), own a boat and a cool Tesela. Maybe Christian (if your into that), great smile, volunteers and save kids all over the world… there would be NONE of these types on ANY OLD site paid or not… but there are… lots of them. The seemingly have the “choice” of any woman on the planet or do they?

Why can’t the best of us guys who has been toiling on OLD for years can’t seem to break thru?

 

The Paralyzing Problem of Too Many Choices - The New York Times

 

 

Too Many Choices: Why Online Dating Is Unsatisfying (Even if It's Fun) | Big Think

[Miss Spider]

10 Online Dating Statistics (for U.S.) You Should Know | eHarmony

 

 

 

The Number Of Messages Men Have To Send To Get A Response When Online Dating Is Absurd - Business Insider

 

 

 

 

 

its a buffet...just don't like the selection.

 

You're right. 'Delicious' was the operative word. If choosing between slop and shirtless, headlsss slop is what you call 'choice', yea , most of us are rolling in options

[bluefeather]

When we decide to put ourselves out there our best hope is to be “found” like going to an antique store and discovering something valuable.

 

That's not my experience at all. I just use it to have fun and get to know new people.

[Miss Spider]

When Im into a guy, I'm into him. I'm not constantly looking for 'better'... I don't think that many women are unless they have some kind of complex. I fall for a guy, I just do. I think if a girl loses interest she just wasn't that interested., rather than her being really into you but looking for better.

[staggerlee71]

That to me is the very definition of it. Expressing interest then disappearing if she feels a better choice has coming along. Yet next week, there she is, online again searching...

 

 

I'm definitely see where your coming from. The way I see it, its easy and riskless to respond(showing Interest). The action of reaching out could be as simple as impulse. In that moment, she is feeling like she needs to get something going, but in the days that follow, changes her mind(imagine that).

 

More than likely, expectations are out of line.

 

Personally, I have learned to re-evaluate my expectations and my experience is much better. a lot more fun.

 

Hey, Good luck out there! its a dog eat dog world and you have milkbone underwear!!

[Shanex]

I wish OLD was this delicious man buffet for me that I keep hearing it supposedly is for other women

 

Funny but sweetfish stats don't lie.

 

Is it all about looks? Of course women are more in demand online. There's no debating this.

 

I have gotten ignored too often to remember, with a decent profile, not a bad pic (Not going to 'rate' myself, I look pretty normal, my own hair and teeth, not overweight, no greasy beard) and I can go on 6-7 dates a year at my peak (OLD only). Now that I'm more settled with a girl of course I took an extended break.

 

It is not that hard honestly. Women get accused of being 'picky' and 'fickle' all the time here, I don't think they all are. OLD may not work as much as it should be, but what about offline dating ? A single dude running to women on the streets all day will get 1 number out of 200 women so I guess the situation isn't that bad.

[Miss Spider]

I think Sweetfish pretty much summed up your situation. When you made that thread talking about your OLD situation, you had random dudes on here who were interested in you, and you likely live pretty far away from them. I can't imagine your online profile is so bad that you aren't getting some interest there. Do you not like any of them? If that is the case, what's wrong with all of those guys?

 

Most men who message me online dating I would not consider dating, no. It's not just about looks. It's profile content and communication too. Men just find a larger amount of women attractive in general. . But I don't believe it's almost all women going after the "top 5%" of men. I mean our taste is too varied for that, plus we know our limitations too...haha

Edited August 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[Miss Spider]

Yeah, I really want a bf but not need one. Not even close to being lonely yet. I've been single most my life. Perhaps you are right and that day will come, but at this point I don't think I'll ever someone I'm not into. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Plus I don't care if I have kids and just not wired to need a rship

Edited August 14, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[Miss Spider]

I don't see it as dating down per se, just different standards. It's a matter of priorities, and you have to remember that we are all individuals. We aren't just a bunch of boxes on someone else's checklist.

 

A few years ago, I caught myself with some impossible standards. It took me a while to realize it. I used to go out with a girl that was an 11 out of 10. So gorgeous. It didn't help that sex with her put most porn scenes to shame. After her and I broke up, I was dating an attractive woman, but in my head, she was still a step down. I couldn't help but feel that way sometimes. That girl however, she was great at giving gifts. She would always come home with random gifts for me, and it just felt nice. After her, I dated the most selfless woman I have ever met. At least she was like that in relationships. She was constantly putting her hands on me. Whenever she was around, I was getting back rubs, or she would play with my hair, everything. When it was just her and I, she was giving me a BJ like 2 or 3 times a day. I tell ya, it was nice lol. Eventually, when her and I broke up, I found myself wanting the best of all the women I dated. I missed that hot model, porn star sex girl, but I liked getting gifts, and the back rubs/BJs every day too. Eventually, I was thinking about a girl that did not exist. At first it felt like I was settling, but in reality, that's not what it was.

 

If you meet a new guy, he might not have X, X, and X that you are looking for, but he might have two of them, and another good trait that you weren't even thinking about. As long as you adhere to a strict set of requirements, you might actually miss out on a lot of great people that have some positive qualities you never knew existed. To me, that is not dating down, even if it may seem like it at first.

 

I totally agree with you, Enigma35

I edited my post from 'dating down' to 'dating someone i'm not into' because I get that can be misconstrued. I didn't mean I'm better than them...I just cannot change what I am attracted to. If I could, it would make my romantic life a lot easier. If a guy meets my bare minimum requirements for attraction it is absolutely no problem, but most men online just do not.

 

The thing in your case with the porn star girl pretty much illustrates exactly why I don't date guys and hope they grow on me. I have to feel it early or not at all- no in-between. If I'm thinking I can do better or still lusting for someone else it's a no-go because chances are that someone else will come along or maybe they will not grow on me. What If they never do? What if the gifts and oral are just not enough? It's not fair to either of us...

 

But like I said I don't think about if I can do better, because I only date guys I feel it all for. I can see this being appealing to someone who needs sex and/or a relationship over being single, but if the alternative is being happily single, I take that.

 

Edit: I also want to add I don't think my standards are ridiculous. I do meet guys who meet my requirements every so often.

 

edit2: Sorry if I completely missed your point

Edited August 15, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[normal person]

There is nothing wrong with having standards, but sometimes those standards can keep up lonely.

 

True, but do you think it's better to be lonely and waiting for the right person, or in a less than stellar relationship with the wrong person? Both are different forms of discontent. It really depends on how long you can delay gratification, how honest you are with yourself about the kind of person you can be with, how happy you are just being by yourself while you wait for them.

 

With the former, you're not tied down to anyone so you have a lot more opportunities to find the right person. Also, you have way more time to pursue and fulfill your real purpose in life. The delayed gratification of finding the "real" right person is worth it for some people. At least I think it will be for me.

 

The latter option of picking the wrong person just to fill a void robs you of both time and opportunities, and I know for a lot of people, it's worse than the alternative. The wrong person is just a band aid for loneliness with a lot more bad consequences than good ones.

 

If someone's happy by themselves (hopefully they are because if not, that's probably a bigger problem), I see no reason not to hold out for the right person if they're honest with themselves about the kind of person that is. They'll probably be so much happier in the end. I hope, at least.

[Miss Spider]

Thank you. I'm really tired and probably should not be commenting on message boards. Sorry if I offended anyone and/or missed anyone's point

[normal person]

In my experience, most of the people who hold out for the "right person" end up with someone who isn't right at all. I think the people who wait around for this perfect person that likely does not exist are going to be alone for a long time.

 

I'll agree that there's a lot to be said about being realistic regarding your own market value, circumstances, and expectations. Let's be honest, these scenarios should be looked at on a case by case basis. For some people who are well adjusted, sensible, have good careers, take care of themselves, have a lot of suitors but just haven't found the right one yet, I don't see the harm in waiting it out. Conversely, for someone who is in much less desirable circumstances, the advice might be something more like "Well, he/she's not that bad and you're having fun, so go for it, I guess."

 

Personally, I think that life is best enjoyed with a partner.

 

To each their own. I find it's only best with the right partner, not just a partner. Spending time with someone and wishing they were someone else is a disservice to both of you.

 

I think Eva Green when she played the Bond girl in Casino Royale is about the hottest female specimen on the planet,

 

I can agree with you here.

 

but I am not gonna wait around for a girl like her to be interested in me.

 

My point is that this could be the right or wrong thing to do depending on a lot of factors that we don't know. I trust your judgment on your own situation, but someone else who's in a better or more advantageous one might have a decent shot to land their dream partner. I don't think it's an easy process for most people, but not impossible either. But people on each side of the coin need to be realistic and set aside both delusions of inflated value and false modesty to be at peace with the outcome.

 

I think that as people age, they tend to become pickier and pickier about romantic partners, and if they don't keep that in check, and especially remember that they are not so great themselves, then they are gonna be lonely.

 

Agree. They need to be realistic. But there might be a point in your life where you have the golden opportunity. That's when it should be capitalized on. Not before or after. Win or lose, I imagine those people would regret not trying. I know I've been with the wrong person before, and I could never escape the nagging voice in my head saying "This is obviously not the right person, break up and go find the person you're supposed to be with." I couldn't live with that voice any longer.

[Sweetfish]

Most men who message me online dating I would not consider dating, no. It's not just about looks. It's profile content and communication too. Men just find a larger amount of women attractive in general. . But I don't believe it's almost all women going after the "top 5%" of men. I mean our taste is too varied for that, plus we know our limitations too...haha

 

 

Yet, you admit you have no content on your profile or anything. Ironic.

[Sweetfish]

True, but do you think it's better to be lonely and waiting for the right person, or in a less than stellar relationship with the wrong person? Both are different forms of discontent. It really depends on how long you can delay gratification, how honest you are with yourself about the kind of person you can be with, how happy you are just being by yourself while you wait for them.

 

With the former, you're not tied down to anyone so you have a lot more opportunities to find the right person. Also, you have way more time to pursue and fulfill your real purpose in life. The delayed gratification of finding the "real" right person is worth it for some people. At least I think it will be for me.

 

The latter option of picking the wrong person just to fill a void robs you of both time and opportunities, and I know for a lot of people, it's worse than the alternative. The wrong person is just a band aid for loneliness with a lot more bad consequences than good ones.

 

If someone's happy by themselves (hopefully they are because if not, that's probably a bigger problem), I see no reason not to hold out for the right person if they're honest with themselves about the kind of person that is. They'll probably be so much happier in the end. I hope, at least.

 

No one is pointing a gun to your head.. but today's society projects relationships over the top and spectacular. Both men and women are looking for standards too high. If you were looking for a job would you reject every job until your dream job?? or gain some type of experience..? The longer and older you get the longer its harder to integrate with someone and live with someone because they will be set in their ways..

 

You can sit around and keep thinking there is a right person... but in reality its the two mature people who can learn to make it work and compromise. There is no special cut person for you... Because many times you will think the right person is the person your with now and later they may not be that right person after all. Same with the dream job..

 

The data shows from different and multiple dating sites not just the US, but over seas. Collectively women lurk for the top 20%.

 

To be honest I think its great...

 

Like one poster said its not just about looks..its about the content.. When you know why 80% of the males are rejected.. its easily to know what and what not to put to garnish responses.

 

You see that is why online dating is bad...

 

its simply an AD and the person with the best AD gets more dates and the guy/girl with the most dates has a higher successes rate..

 

Its like a dealership that is straight up honest with all the fees and hidden cost and doesn't make money and the dealership that doesn't show the hidden cost and fee and makes a great AD gets more business and makes more money.

[Miss Spider]

There's a lot I'm willing to compromise on, but attraction and some core compatibilites, I cannot. If I didn't meet anyone who I met my standards and was into me maybe I would change by necessity. But I do. It's unusual, but not rare. And it's that way for a lot of people. I was just saying it's not endless options for everyone, particularly if they are not looking for a relationship. If I went out with someone I wasn't interested in I'd be in a relationship tomorrow, but wouldn't be happy, so why? I'm sure when you were online dating there were people you passed on too. That's fine. They're someone else's type. I'm actually talking to someone I like that I met online right now! Typically anxiety or something else gets in the way and I mess things up, so that will probably happen, but that's another story.

[PegNosePete]

You see that is why online dating is bad...

 

its simply an AD and the person with the best AD gets more dates and the guy/girl with the most dates has a higher successes rate..

Absolutely! But why is that a bad thing? It's pretty easy to learn how to sell yourself, and this forum and many others are available with plenty of friendly, experienced, successful people willing to give their time to help out those who aren't so good at selling themselves.

 

It's very easy for most people to get their profile into the top 10% or even 1%, without being dishonest or misrepresenting yourself, and maintaining your own personality and individuality. Yet so many people are unwilling to do so. They prefer just to complain about how terrible and unfair it is.