'Marrying up' (dating up) is now easier for men...

[Larryville]

Was browsing articles and found this interesting piece.

 

Keep in mind this article is focusing on “marriage” but I would be interested in how women view this with relationships in general because of the general perception that as you get older women lose the advantage of being able to get with good quality guys.

 

I ever hear women who intern where I work that not only there are fewer guys but that the guys are getting lazier and less driven.

 

Article, Google: 'Marrying up' is now easier for men, improves their economic well-being, study finds

 

As the number of highly educated women has increased in recent decades, the chances of "marrying up" have increased significantly for men and decreased for women, according to a new study led by a University of Kansas sociologist.

 

"the number of highly educated women exceeds the number of highly educated men in the marriage (dating) market, the researchers found.

 

Women are more likely to be married to a less-educated man. Because of the combined facts that husbands are less educated than their wives than before, and the return on earnings for men has stagnated, a husband's contribution to family income has decreased."

 

Since there are people from everywhere on the site I oft wonder how this translates in other cultures.

 

How does this translate to the woes of dating and the frustration clash of the sexes?

 

Parents play the most important part in the cause of this role switch of dependency/individuality, especially mothers. Mothers tend to spoil and baby their boys, while they train their girls to not be dependent on a man, thus causing women to become more independent and harder workers than men.

 

Men nowadays have been raised to look for a woman to take care of them, just as their mother did, while they bring little to nothing to the table. With single mothers being a norm now, boys don’t have positive, goal-driven men in their lives to look up to, so they grow up to be lazy, mediocre men.

As this clash carries over will more women simply "settle" as time goes on because they seemingly have no (or few) choices?

[No_Go]

What would it mean 'up'? Financially? Social stratum? Education? Career level?

 

I think for a successful woman trying to date/marry up, choices are very limited. Say you're a woman at top 1%. How many men that you're attracted to and are single are 'up' compared to you? It is much easier, faster and painless to pick up from the 99% 'down'.

 

Also 2 career people rarely make a stable couple. One needs to sacrifice. Maybe a SAHD is the choice of preference for a successful woman, because it gives her the chance to excel and still have balanced family life. This was the choice of at least 3 of my friends, each of them very successful on her own.

[Gaeta]

"the number of highly educated women exceeds the number of highly educated men in the marriage (dating) market, the researchers found.

 

French Canadian here: More girls graduate high school, more women graduate college, and University. In my Country now women are dominant in every part of medical field and half of engineering field, which has always been a male dominated field. So yes, the face of society is changing. Hopefully we will have more women in politics as well.

 

Where I am from it doesn't matter a woman is more educated or earns more. What is important is the quality of her relationship and how her husband-bf is contributing in his way. Men from older generations may have problems with it but the younger generation doesn't. I think the clash of the sexes will die with the last of the babyboomers.

 

 

Men nowadays have been raised to look for a woman to take care of them, just as their mother did, while they bring little to nothing to the table.

Sorry but that is not what I am witnessing. I have never met a man that was looking to be 'maintained'. Any normal person wish to accomplish themselves personally and professionally.

 

 

Men nowadays have been raised to look for a woman to take care of them

With single mothers being a norm now, boys don’t have positive, goal-driven men in their lives to look up to, so they grow up to be lazy, mediocre men.

Sorry I don't buy that one either. There are men that have accomplished great things in life that came from a single-mom's home. A lot of those men were inspired by their hard-working mom to make something great out of themselves. They may not have had a 'father' figure but they had a grand-father or an uncle as a model.

[Cookiesandough]

My ex was dating up. I was his sugar momma.

[RecentChange]

Interesting.

 

I sometimes tell the story about how my single father told me "never expect a man to take care of you" and I took that to heart. I never for a moment expected to be provided for.

 

And yes, in many ways my husband "married up". I have more education than he does. When we meet we were both broke college kids. 15 years later, I earn twice what he does.

 

I didn't settle. Income was never a measurement I used to judge a partner. Compatibility, love, respect are much more important.

[Cookiesandough]

I could use one of those. I work too much now. With a sugar mama, I could spend more time in the gym and on my Playstation. Plus, I can actually cook.

 

Hahah that's pretty much what he did!!! Played video games and cooked.

[GoodOnPaper]

Women will always be attracted to men they can look up to in some way. If fewer men can be looked up to financially, women will find men that can be looked up to in different ways - looks/build, creativeness (musicians, artists, etc.), or other "alpha" qualities (men in heavily physical professions). As a highly educated man, I have seen this going on with highly educated women for a long time. The last kind of guy a nerdy PhD academic woman wants is a nerdy PhD academic man. We'll just see more and more opposites-attract relationships.

[No_Go]

The last kind of guy a nerdy PhD academic woman wants is a nerdy PhD academic man. We'll just see more and more opposites-attract relationships.

 

Not so sure about that!

But my latest thread proves this configuration is a challenge LOL, if it worked I would loved it At least someone to share common academic dramas with

[Cookiesandough]

Not so sure about that!

But my latest thread proves this configuration is a challenge LOL, if it worked I would loved it At least someone to share common academic dramas with

 

when I read that I though of you, no_Go

[Bastile]

I don't consider going out with a women of means as "dating up".

 

Just don't be a mooch, and it ticks that box. Anything else is sort of superfluous.

[Bastile]

Women will always be attracted to men they can look up to in some way. If fewer men can be looked up to financially, women will find men that can be looked up to in different ways - looks/build, creativeness (musicians, artists, etc.), or other "alpha" qualities (men in heavily physical professions). As a highly educated man, I have seen this going on with highly educated women for a long time. The last kind of guy a nerdy PhD academic woman wants is a nerdy PhD academic man. We'll just see more and more opposites-attract relationships.

 

If a man's game can be easily replaced or commandeered by the state, then he's doing it wrong, imo.

[CptInsano]

First, I would be very careful when extrapolating marriage to relationships in general. Marriage is also an economic bond and a multi-year project (kids/home). The selection criteria are not the same as they are for casual relatonships.

 

Further, marriage is positively correlated with wealth, meaning that by basing the study on marriage, you are shifting your view to above-average earners.

 

Which somewhat reflects my own observation. Guys who have their act together are benefiting from this, if they are indeed interested in marriage. Guys on the couch playing Xbox may not see the same.

[GoodOnPaper]

Not so sure about that!

But my latest thread proves this configuration is a challenge LOL, if it worked I would loved it At least someone to share common academic dramas with

 

You must be the proverbial needle-in-the-haystack! I would have loved nothing more than to spend my life with another academic intellectual - I'm very much a "likes-attract" person. Learning what women in my grad program really wanted in men and how little they thought of those us in the program in that regard hit me like a ton of bricks and scarred me beyond repair.

 

At the university I am at there are about 300 faculty members - I can probably count on one hand the number of dual-faculty couples. Granted, the ever-present two-body hiring logistical problem in our profession is no small thing, but I still think there are other attraction-related forces at work.

[The Urbanyst]

In the end.. you are limited to the people available to you.

 

Its a myth that anyone can just create a list of traits and cherry pick that person to marry. That's not how the real world works.

 

A woman does not have more dating options because she is more educated or makes more money. By out performing a large segment of the male population, she creates a situation where she has less "better than her" men to choose from. The likelihood that a superior man will select HER out of his many options is not very high. So her choices are to either go with a lesser man or buy 12 cats and stay single.

[CptInsano]

A woman does not have more dating options because she is more educated or makes more money. By out performing a large segment of the male population, she creates a situation where she has less "better than her" men to choose from. The likelihood that a superior man will select HER out of his many options is not very high. So her choices are to either go with a lesser man or buy 12 cats and stay single.

 

But that cap at the upper end is somewhat artificial. Yes, I have met women who only wanted men with degrees from certain schools. But that was the exception. Yet I've seen many married couples where the guy is not quite as successful, but still had a decent career. In the end it wasn't mucu of an issue.

 

I'm wondering if the problem manifests itself elsewhere, somewhat in the middle of the income distribution, essentially women who are not looking for husbands as providers, but at the same time cannot afford for a man to make much less than them.

[No_Go]

I think you're misinterpreting the women in your grad program. The issue is academic men (PhD students and up the ladder) are... well, not very sexually forward and quirky, so women can't read signs of attraction. Add on academic women are the same way.... and just good opportunities are being lost.

 

I tried dating contractor, engineer, musician - men all over the place in the educational space... just to come to the revelation that nothing beats the connection that can be formed with a fellow academic - we just 'get' each other.

 

Regarding faculty couples: other factors play role in those not surviving or even forming: travel, instability, financial insecurity etc.

 

You must be the proverbial needle-in-the-haystack! I would have loved nothing more than to spend my life with another academic intellectual - I'm very much a "likes-attract" person. Learning what women in my grad program really wanted in men and how little they thought of those us in the program in that regard hit me like a ton of bricks and scarred me beyond repair.

 

At the university I am at there are about 300 faculty members - I can probably count on one hand the number of dual-faculty couples. Granted, the ever-present two-body hiring logistical problem in our profession is no small thing, but I still think there are other attraction-related forces at work.

[Larryville]

I didn't settle. Income was never a measurement I used to judge a partner. Compatibility, love, respect are much more important.

 

Truth be told with wife #2 I married way up, on paper we were in no way compatible. Made far more money, was more educated ect but out differences and mutual respect for one another is what made it work.

 

However this gets to my one point…

 

Boys don’t have positive, goal-driven men in their lives to look up to, so they grow up to be lazy, mediocre men. (that don’t respect women)

 

Sorry I don't buy that one either. There are men that have accomplished great things in life that came from a single-mom's home. A lot of those men were inspired by their hard-working mom to make something great out of themselves. They may not have had a 'father' figure but they had a grand-father or an uncle as a model.

 

Now I’m not saying a single mother can’t raise a smart, respectable young man but the statistics say otherwise.

 

72 percent of children in the African-American community are born out of wedlock. That means absent fathers.

 

What can fathers teach young boys about relationships?

 

The relationship a boy has with his father is one of the most important relationships he will ever have. It is here that he learns the ‘art’ of being a man, and a dad is a life-long mentor. Guide your son into manhood.

 

It is here that he learns that relationships require mutual respect.

 

How to express emotions in a healthy way.

 

That women want to feel loved and safe at the end of the day, no matter what their age. You being cruel won't give them that.

 

The age-old wisdom of being a man that loves and respects a woman is timeless (and opening a door for her is always classy, no matter how independent she is).

 

And that the lack of a male role model (not discounting other male role models like, uncles, teachers, coaches) is an express train right to prison and the cycle continues. Domestic violence is seemingly on the increase because way too many boys are taught that hitting a woman is ok.

 

Now what does this have to do with “dating” specifically? More and more men are seemingly disrespecting women across the board.

Skepticism and lack of trust is clearly present with so many women, this affect all of us. The guys who try to do right by women who were raised with values and learned how to treat women (so man y women think that all guys are bums) and women who are looking for those respectful men.

 

Not exactly about “education” or status but….

[GoodOnPaper]

I tried dating contractor, engineer, musician - men all over the place in the educational space... just to come to the revelation that nothing beats the connection that can be formed with a fellow academic - we just 'get' each other.

 

Yes, I can see that. My wife loves the university environment. She has always worked at one in an office/professional capacity, but it's not quite the same. It's hard for most people to understand that most of us do this - especially those of who, despite having the safety net of tenure, drive ourselves to exhaustion anyway - not just because it's what we like, it's because of what we ARE.

 

Anyway, OP, sorry about the sidebar. I'm done.

[somanymistakes]

It can be very difficult for two equally career-obsessed people to maintain a happy relationship because neither of them has the time to pay attention to the home side of things. Modern society often puts too much focus on LEADERS, on people with the biggest salaries and the 'most' power and control, while disregarding ASSISTANTS even though they are super, super important to a smoothly-functioning system.

 

I'm not actually in the medical business so this metaphor is probably off in the details, but... if you've spent your whole life becoming the best brain surgeon and you are totally focused on the details of doing those little incredibly important brain manipulations, you still can't efficiently get your job done without someone organising your schedule, cleaning your tools, handing them to you at the right time, and otherwise taking care of all the surrounding details so you can focus on your task. The whole team matters.

 

In a marriage with two high-powered people, if both of them only know how to work 80 hours a week at their jobs and neither of them knows how to do the dishes, there's a problem. Okay sure you can hire a housekeeper for the dishes, but what about more personal aspects? If both of them are stressed out and wound up from their jobs and need a soft place to rest and recover, but neither of them has the skills or the time to really provide that for each other, the personal relationship will suffer.

 

And of course if they both get great job opportunities in different cities and both of them consider their careers incredibly important, how are they going to work that out? This is how my aunt's first marriage fell apart. They were both brilliant people with high prospects and neither was willing to give up on their dreams so eventually they gave up on each other instead.

 

It doesn't matter IMO whether it's the man or the woman who is the 'higher' person, as long as their personal beliefs don't get in the way (if you personally feel that as the man you must be the provider and it drives you crazy not to be, then obviously it won't work out for you). But it's very, very hard to maintain a pairing of total equality, because a relationship needs different elements. If neither one of you is the stay-at-home type taking care of housework and kids, then BOTH of you have to put in at least some work on that front.

[No_Go]

I sometimes tell the story about how my single father told me "never expect a man to take care of you" and I took that to heart. I never for a moment expected to be provided for.

 

Very interesting. I remember my grandma saying something in that lines: 'You should work hard to succeed. Or otherwise you'd just marry and your husband will be the successful one'. After hearing that (at age of 7-8 I think) I always had the lingering fear that if I marry up I'd be outcompeted in the chain by the husband. Maybe that's why I'm still single

[JuneL]

Yes, I can see that. My wife loves the university environment. She has always worked at one in an office/professional capacity, but it's not quite the same. It's hard for most people to understand that most of us do this - especially those of who, despite having the safety net of tenure, drive ourselves to exhaustion anyway - not just because it's what we like, it's because of what we ARE.

 

Anyway, OP, sorry about the sidebar. I'm done.

 

It also somewhat depends on the field. I have a good much older friend who just retired from a top 3 department in his field of pure mathematics. His wife was doing something totally unrelated to pure mathematics, and I always wondered how she could understand the nature of his work; I didn't mean to understand the theories he had proved, but I would imagine some people maybe quite clueless regarding what mathematics research is really about.

[SwordofFlame]

I can't understood why a successful career woman with a high paying job would have a preference to only date men that earn even more? I mean you already earn enough money....right?

[Larryville]

I can't understood why a successful career woman with a high paying job would have a preference to only date men that earn even more?

 

I think it’s more about having a partner that has life goals and ambition. No so much about the money they earn. I think most together, secure, educated women could care less about specifically what a man makes, only that he finds enjoyment and fulfillment in what he does.

 

As stated wife #2 made more than twice than I did. However at the time we met I was involved in a boat load of high profile community projects. She was very interested in a lot of my projects and supported me 100%.

 

The fact that she made good money (I made decent money too) meant that I could continue to be involved in what I was passionate about and not have to worry about bills and other financial stuff.

[The Urbanyst]

But that cap at the upper end is somewhat artificial. Yes, I have met women who only wanted men with degrees from certain schools. But that was the exception. Yet I've seen many married couples where the guy is not quite as successful, but still had a decent career. In the end it wasn't mucu of an issue.

 

I'm wondering if the problem manifests itself elsewhere, somewhat in the middle of the income distribution, essentially women who are not looking for husbands as providers, but at the same time cannot afford for a man to make much less than them.

 

All women start out seeking superior men. But you are only young and pretty for so long. Eventually women get a reality check and have to make a decision.

 

That's why a lot of women end up with broke men. That's all that's available to them.

[SammySammy]

Meh.

 

I'm not really impressed with women with degrees and professional careers. That's pretty much all I've been with. After a while, you realize they are flawed just like everybody else. Depending on their issues, having a degree might not mean you're dating "up".

 

Just give me a good quality person who is good to me. Good for me. Somewhat attractive. Somewhat intelligent. Physically fit. I'm good with that.