Food for thought: The path we choose to travel

[Outcast]

If I had the choice. I would choose not to have that happen to me. If I have the choice between pleasure without wisdom and miserey with a side of wisdom, I would choose pleasure every day.

 

Well duh. I mean really who would actively choose misery? Obviously nobody would prefer to be unhappy. So it's not like this is a big revelation or anything. I'm sure if you asked Devildog he'd say he would have much preferred for his wife to keep loving him and to be a wonderful wife until the day he died.

[westernxer]

Originally posted by wizdom

So what i have to say to you enjoy your little 75-80 years of sinful pleasures...

 

You shouldn't judge others simply because they don't believe the way you do. Besides, 75-80 years is a long time...

[Horse]

Originally posted by Outcast

 

 

Well duh. I mean really who would actively choose misery? Obviously nobody would prefer to be unhappy. So it's not like this is a big revelation or anything. I'm sure if you asked Devildog he'd say he would have much preferred for his wife to keep loving him and to be a wonderful wife until the day he died.

 

 

Westernexer sort of advocated it when he said:

 

The only path worth following is that which leads to wisdom. Wisdom is manifest through pain and suffering. Pleasure teaches nothing and is recommended in small doses, lest you succumb to self-indulgence.

 

The alternative to wisdom is bitterness, and regret.

 

 

My reply was to say that there are other paths worth following besides the ones that are laden with pain and suffering. The argument for and against has since evolved... But that was my original point.

 

 

Wiz...

There is no point in arguing with me about this. You believe what you want. Don't try to scare me into believing in your god with a hell that I don't believe exists.

[Devildog]

Originally posted by Outcast

Well duh. I mean really who would actively choose misery? Obviously nobody would prefer to be unhappy. So it's not like this is a big revelation or anything. I'm sure if you asked Devildog he'd say he would have much preferred for his wife to keep loving him and to be a wonderful wife until the day he died.

 

Actually Outcast, I don't think they are referring to my wife leaving me. To be honest, at this point I am grateful for that. The misery comes from the loss of my infant daughter 11 days after she was born. Her entire life was 11 days in a NICU hooked up to tubes and machines and drugs. This experience is a large part of what led to the end of my marriage. And believe me, it isn't a misery you would trade any amount of wisdom for.

 

Now, would this misery be classified as an indicator that I was on the wrong path in my life? Seems like a rather extreme message on the surface. But perhaps it took that extreme of a message to get me off the path I was on. And at the time, I still fought with everything I had to stay on that path. My marriage was miserable. I don't think anyone would have blamed me for a second if I had initiated the termination of my marriage if they knew what it was like. But I took vows, and I felt in my heart that marriage was for life. I would face the consequences of my decision no matter how miserable it made me.

 

wizdom, you are entitled to your beliefs, as are the rest of us. I went to 12 years of Catholic School, so please, I know plenty about the bible. No offense to those who live their lives by the bible, but in my personal experience and opinion, it leaves far too many unanswered questions, too many inconsistencies. Really, one shot, 60-80 years, all or nothing to determine your fate for eternity? Where is the opportunity for a forgiving God to forgive, or to allow you to repent or make amends? Personally, yes, I believe we get more than one go around. If that belief means I go to hell, I have a corner office down there waiting for me, great view of the lake of fire.

 

I think when this life is over, we look back on what it was we were supposed to learn and compare it to what we did learn. And then we look at what we still have to learn. And I think there are certain other souls who we travel along with on this journey from time to time. And that we arrange to work together with these other souls for the mutual benefit of both. This is why I believe there are in fact people we are meant to be with, and there are hundreds of little occurances that work to put us on that path.

 

Before the death of my child, when I was still able to give some measure of praise to God, it occured to me that God would probably appreciate it more if we were to give him praise for and in his creations. The natural wonders of the world. Not in some building created by men. This realization is what led me to the conclusion that no religion has it right. Why would God need a rule book, or a guide book on what he expects of us, when he could put that information into our hearts and minds from the start?

[april]

I know the difference between right and wrong, I just don't care.

 

I just read this for the first time in your signature line

[Outcast]

Why would God need a rule book, or a guide book on what he expects of us, when he could put that information into our hearts and minds from the start?

 

Then we wouldn't have free will. If the Chief Programmer puts a ready-made software package in us, we remain robots. But we are AI creatures.

[Devildog]

No, we would still have free will. We would still have the choice on how to use that knowledge. Like april just pointed out in my signature. "I know the difference between right and wrong, I just don't care." We have the choice to do what is right, or what is right for us at the time.

[wizdom]

You Hit it right on the head outcast. It is free will. We have a choice to choose what we believe and who we are going to serve. Think about When sadam Husain and even hitler were in power they forced people to believe what they did. People did not really like them or always believe they went along with them and followed there believes because they were scared of them.

 

I think it was devil dog that stated that he was a catholic for 12 years. There's your problem. Catholics have a different believe than christians do. If I had been raised a catholic I would have left the faith as well. I won't get into all the believes that catholics believe, but one major one that is a big no no is the worship of Mary. She was nothing more than a virgin who found favor in Gods eyes to birth Jesus Christ into this world, and also to show the existantce of God for the simple fact that she was a virgin and back then that was scientifically impossible. In this day in age a virgin could become pregnant without having sex b/c she could be artifically insiminated. ( that's besides the point). There is no where in the Bible where it requires the worship of mary.

 

We all have hardships in our life that make us stronger or either push us further away from God depending on how you choose to take it. I lost my father when I was nine than 2 years later my brother was hit by a car on his bike and killed. Then when i was 16 i became pregnant and i choose to place my son up for adoption so that he could have a better life than i was prepared to give him at the time. If i would have looked at all my dissappointments in life then i would have blamed God. But as outcast stated it's free will. Even Jesus Christ did not live a life free from dissappointment and heartace so what makes us so special that we wouldn't have to. Like i stated before you test and trials make you stronger if you choose to let them.

 

God is a very forgiving God. He will allow things to happen to us because of the free will that he gives us to choose what becomes of our life. To answer your question about where is a forgiving God if he were to send people to hell.

 

Lets start from the beginning. You can thank Adam and Eve for our need to be saved from Hell because the ate that stupid apple and caused the rest of us to be born into sin and thus need to be forgiving. So it is not your fault that you need to be saved. But it is your fault if you choose not to except the sacrifice that Christ made for us so that we would not have to live eternaty in hell. It all boils down to FREE WILL. You can blame all your problems and situations on God and say he caused your heart ace. Maybe he allowed it to happen to open your eyes and realize that you need him and you can not save yourself and that there is something beyond this universe that is bigger than us and that we do have a purpose.

 

My question is that why do people always blame God for bad things that happen to them but they never blame the devil. Like quankann stated the devil destroyed Jobs life to see if he would turn his back on God, so what makes us so special that he would not bring problems to us so that we would turn our backs on God. Honeslty no offense Devil dogg I think that is what he did to you satan new that losing your child would harden your heart towards God so he took her. So if your mad and anyone it should be at satan not God. And the best way to get back at satan is to serve God with all you heart mind and soul. Don't you want to see your child again, you know that she is in heaven. If you want reassurance that you will see your child again. Just ask Jesus into your heart, tell him you know that your a sinner and you need him. Repent for the things that you know are wrong and ask him to help you with the things that you lust after. If your serious about it he will help you and he will take you under his wing. God is under no obligation to protect us if we are not his children. If we are not children of God we are children of the ruler of this world who we all no is satan.

 

I think that deep down everyone is looking for the love that ONLY God can give us thats why there is so many drug addicts because they keep looking for a higher high and you'll never be able to be satisfied until you let go and let God

[Devildog]

wizdom, you just stated you were not raised a Catholic. So unless you studied religion and theology in college I would expect your knowledge of other religions to be limited. Catholics do pray to Mary, and hundreds of other saints, they are not place on the same level as God, or above him, but they are still adored and revered. It's easy to say if you were born into a different religion you would change it. Heck, if I were born a Muslim I would want to change. But when that is your belief system that you grew up with, it isn't that easy.

 

Actually, from what I recall, and even from what quankanne posted, God permitted the Devil to test Job. Done with God's knowledge and consent. Why? He allowed one of his children to suffer enormous misery and hardship and heartache. To prove a point to Satan? That sounds vain to me.

[wizdom]

First off God allowed his only son to die on the cross for your sins so that you would not have to die and go to hell. Jesus Christ was his only begotten son so what makes you so special. really get off your self. not trying to be rude but unless you were living for christ at the time when your daughter passed you were not God's child. I did not say that i would try to change your RELIGION i don't believe in religion God is about a personal relationship not works. Just because you go to mass every sunday and take communion and an overall good person doesn't mean you have a personal relationship with God. Just about every other "religion" is based on works not personal relationship with God. The only thing that God requires is that we take up our cross and follow him. As long as satan is roaming the earth there will be heart ace and pain and things that you wonder why happened. You can blame God if you want to, but i can tell you this much you can never say that you weren't told. Thats the beauty of free will. You can no the truth and Hear the truth and still do you own thing. Just like as kids when our parents told us not to touch the stove b/c we would get burned. We Knew the outcome but we did it anyways b/c we always want to test something or someone. Keep testing God and one day soon you will receive his wrath. You think us loosing loved ones is bad wait till judgement day if you choose not to trust him now and join his team

[Devildog]

For not trying to be rude you do a pretty good job.

 

As God is the creator of all, the universe and all that inhabit it, aren't we all God's children? Was Jesus just Dad's favorite? You seem awfully quick to judge others wizdom. You haven't lived through what I lived through. You don't want to get into a spitting match with me over suffering. I didn't just turn my back from my religion or my beliefs on a whim, just because things got a little bit rough. There was an enormous amount of thought, reason and questioning of things that went into my believing that NO religion has it right when it comes to God.

 

Get off myself? How about you get off your holier than thou, only true way self. What makes you think your ideology is right? You don't have anything to guarantee your way is better than the Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist. Religion, and all the tenets of those religions, are the construct of humans. Fallible humans. You believe they were divinely inspired? What is to say the words I am typing are not divinely inspired? There is no more proof that prophets and religious leaders of the past had any better credentials than I do to speak for God. And you certainly don't have any better credentials than I do.

 

Just like as kids when our parents told us not to touch the stove b/c we would get burned. We Knew the outcome but we did it anyways b/c we always want to test something or someone.

 

We touched the stove because we didn't know what "burned" meant. If you have never been burned how do you know what it means or even that it is painful? When I told my 3 year old not to touch the electric fence because she would get shocked, she touched the fence to find out what shocked meant.

 

Keep testing God and one day soon you will receive his wrath.

 

There is that loving, patient, forgiving God you preach about. Ready on a moments notice to unleash his mighty wrath upon me. He knows where to find me, I'm not hiding. I've never cared if I was damned or saved. I've spent my life caring about others, not myself. I offered my own life for my daughter's life. To God, to the doctors. I would have gladly given my life to save her.

[wizdom]

I don't claim to be holier than thou because lord Knows i am far from it. He is a loving God and he is forgiving but just because he loves you does not mean he is going to make you life perfectly smooth and honky doory. Yes I do believe that The prophets who wrote the Bible were inspired by God becase all off there prophecies have come true. so i no that the prophicies that are yet to come will come true as well. I am not judging you. Judge not lest ye be Judge first. If you have a relationship with God then he will judge your heart. You are making it pretty clear that you want nothing to do with God so i am telling you the end result of your decision. I am not judging you. we really can end the conversation because you have your mind made up that your going to hell. It is your Choice. Just make sure you tell God that. Maybe I have no tolerance for someone who would mock God and think that his wisdom or ways are higher than Gods. Your saying that you can get by in this life withou him. it is because of him that you even wake up every morning and do what ever it is you do. But we as spoiled humans take everything for granted. You should thank God everyday he even lets you breath

[Horse]

I used to believe in a christian god... Then gradually it stopped making sense. I still tried to believe for a few years after that. I was faking it.

 

I realized that if there is an all knowing god. He would know that I was full of crap.

 

So I stopped pretending to believe.

 

Now I search for something that rings true. No one religion does this. Most seem to be corrupted by centuries of human weakness.

 

But there is a lot of wisdom in the underlying tenants of most religions. There are diamonds burried in all of the bullsheet.

 

That wisdom is what I try to follow, when I am trying to determine which path to follow in life.

 

Well that and the search for true lasting happiness.

 

 

'Doubt may be an uncomfortable state of mind but certainty is ridiculous.' Voltaire.

[Devildog]

Originally posted by wizdom

Yes I do believe that The prophets who wrote the Bible were inspired by God becase all off there prophecies have come true. so i no that the prophicies that are yet to come will come true as well.

 

Doesn't that kind of contradict your earlier statements about how Oracles, or psychisc are receiving their information from Satan? Who is to say if the predictions come true that they are not prophets of God then? Or how is it not possible that your bonafide prophets were not tricked into spreading the word of Satan? Is it just because you believe the prophets to be true so therefore that makes it so? How would my belief in someone else make me wrong?

 

Maybe I have no tolerance for someone who would mock God and think that his wisdom or ways are higher than Gods. Your saying that you can get by in this life withou him. it is because of him that you even wake up every morning and do what ever it is you do. But we as spoiled humans take everything for granted. You should thank God everyday he even lets you breath

 

I don't recall ever claiming that I was wiser than God. I mock the teachings of other men who have created religious doctrines for the purpose of establishing control over others who fear to think for themselves.

 

Your ideas, wizdom, seem to contain alot of contradictions. God allows me to breath but he isn't the one who let my daughter die.

[Devildog]

Originally posted by Horse

I used to believe in a christian god... Then gradually it stopped making sense. I still tried to believe for a few years after that. I was faking it.

 

I realized that if there is an all knowing god. He would know that I was full of crap.

 

So I stopped pretending to believe.

 

Now I search for something that rings true. No one religion does this. Most seem to be corrupted by centuries of human weakness.

 

But there is a lot of wisdom in the underlying tenants of most religions. There are diamonds burried in all of the bullsheet.

 

That wisdom is what I try to follow, when I am trying to determine which path to follow in life.

 

Well that and the search for true lasting happiness.

 

 

'Doubt may be an uncomfortable state of mind but certainty is ridiculous.' Voltaire.

 

My feelings exactly Horse. None of the religions have it exactly right. It is a personal thing that varies from person to person. There are some good things to take from different religions, but as a whole, none of them are the answer.

[Merin]

The reason your life is better now, is because you know me.

 

 

JK JK JK

 

 

DD, you've had some tough times.. been through a lot.. and it's made you a stronger person.

Not the easy path to go down for certain...

 

However, I also believe that hard things you endure are often times the things that lead you to a turning point in your life, and you see things from a different perspective because of where you've been...

Life is good, because you choose to make it so... (and because you know me.. LMAO)

[Devildog]

Getting to know you was part of the process, kinda like the sign that says "Curve Ahead". You have played an important role in that though, roadmap, roadsigns.

 

But I don't think I want to see how much stronger I can get. I survived the attempted coup de grace from my XW. That is strong enough.

 

But yeah, life is good, simply because I know you I guess knowing me makes your life Euphoric then huh? J/K J/K (maybe)

[Moose]

I think you two need to get a room or stay on topic at least.

[Devildog]

Moose, I think this thread got off topic along time ago, when it went from a philosophical question regarding the correlation between the paths we choose and the degree of difficulties we face to a full blown theological battle. The last couple of posts were more like tension breakers.

 

A room? Hmm, we haven't tried that approach before! J/K J/K

[quankanne]

Why would God need a rule book, or a guide book on what he expects of us, when he could put that information into our hearts and minds from the start?

 

because we are human, it's easy to ignore our hearts or our consciences when we desire something, and it's easy to make right from wrong indistiguishible. The Bible, the Torah, the Koran is like and automotive guide: it's designed to help you keep it in the best possible running condition you can. Therefore if God is one who loves you regardless of the choices you make in life, why wouldn't he want to give you a spiritual operating manual to consult? Same thing with worshiping in a church. Yes, you can pray and worship on your own, but most people need the support of like-minded believers to bring their faith alive.

 

Catholics have a different believe than christians do. If I had been raised a catholic I would have left the faith as well.

 

actually, no we don't. We worship God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and Mary and the saints are our tried and true prayer partners. If you are Catholic and left the church, it's much for the same reason anyone leaves a community: your needs weren't being met, whatever those needs were.

 

Just because you go to Mass every sunday and take communion and an overall good person doesn't mean you have a personal relationship with God

 

and you've got an insight into God's mind as to who is tight with him and who isn't? Taking communion at Mass isn't as simple as you think it is: from Day One of catechism, we are taught that you are only to receive the Body of Christ if you are in a state of grace, not in a state of sin. Sin is when you have committed an act that hurts your relationship with God, so, this would imply that each and everyone of us has a personal relationship with God, even those folks who ignore him or say they don't believe in him.

[westernxer]

The theological battle is becoming a drag...

[Moose]

Originally posted by westernxer

The theological battle is becoming a drag...

Anytime a discussion on religion or spiritual concerns ensues, you can just about count on a theological debate.......that's the nature of things.....because, "I'm right and the rest of you all are wrong".

[Merin]

Originally posted by Moose

I think you two need to get a room or stay on topic at least.

 

I though it good to lighten things a little... I did stay on topic, I do think that lives are often better because of the people we meet along the way.

 

DevilDog has been a great Friend to me and I've tried to be there for him as well... sharing ideas and asking for opinions and help along the way.

 

This was light hearted and meant in that way... which I knew DD would get because he's the OP for this thread and for real the subject became grossly off topic when the wiz guy came on board.

 

Sheesh

[Merin]

Originally posted by Devildog

Moose, I think this thread got off topic along time ago, when it went from a philosophical question regarding the correlation between the paths we choose and the degree of difficulties we face to a full blown theological battle. The last couple of posts were more like tension breakers.

 

 

Exactly

[wizdom]

If God didn't give us a "rule book" as you call it people would be doing exactly what your doing making up our own believes to satisfy our wants and desire. No man in there right mind would actually put the requirements that GOD put in the Bible for us to follow. one example is not having sex befoe marriage. Why would man require us to be righteous when the very nature of our being thanks to Adam and Eve is sinful.

 

I never said that man hasn;t changed things in the Bible to fit there needs and wants. I know that God's original commandments have been Preserved through out the years if they haven't then we have nothing to worry about when we stand before God on judgment day. We can just say Lord your Holy BIble was tainted by mans ideas i didn't know what was your word and what was theirs so i choose to live after the flesh fulfilling my selfish desires, i not guilty because you weren't clear on what i needed to do to be saved.

 

I did not say that you need to follow a religion if you want to be saved. If you are to follow anything it should be the examples of Jesus Christ. If you do that then you don;t have to worry about picking the wrong religon.

 

I also agree that every religon has a bit of the truth in them. there is only one thing that they lack and that is realization that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that in order to come unto the father we have to believe trust and rely on Him. Its not by works that we can please the father. It's by Faith and with that faith comes works but one without the other is dead. It all boils down to having a personal relationship in God and trusting in God's written word. That's why when Jesus Christ died on the cross, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven he said that he was going to send us the comforter, which is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what convicts you when you know that you've done wrong. The Holy Spirit also reasurres you that God's word is true.