Respect and love in affairs is not either-or

[DKT3]

In your opinion, perhaps. My experience is different. Lack of respect for the BS doesn't equal no respect for anyone.

 

Maybe, but not likely. It's usually a continuation of prior behavior.

 

In truth, the respectful honorable way would be ending one before starting another. In entering into an affair, one isn't in love, only infatuated one isn't respectful or an affair would be impossible. No matter how you twist it, in the beginning it's neither honorable or respectful to steal what belongs to spouses and children, or to offer the AP less than a whole person. It's selfish and self service.

[knabe]

Love, respect . . . affairs -- Seeing those three words in the same sentence nauseates me.

 

Exactly. I have resisted posting that thus far....but there is nothing respectful about an affair. And if you are trusting a cheater to tell you the truth WHILE he is cheating with you.....you are a fool.

[knabe]

Maybe, but not likely. It's usually a continuation of prior behavior.

 

In truth, the respectful honorable way would be ending one before starting another. In entering into an affair, one isn't in love, only infatuated one isn't respectful or an affair would be impossible. No matter how you twist it, in the beginning it's neither honorable or respectful to steal what belongs to spouses and children, or to offer the AP less than a whole person. It's selfish and self service.

 

Exactly. And REALLY ending it, not just telling an unsuspecting victim that "it's over" with someone so you can get some thrills. I think people lie to themselves most of all when they do that....and especially when they do that and deny it afterward. Cheaters know they are cheating - might as well man up and own it.

[cocorico]

it's neither honorable or respectful to steal what belongs to spouses and children, or to offer the AP less than a whole person.

 

"To steal what belongs to spouses and children" What might that be? I'm a spouse, and what belongs to me: my time, my possessions, my work... not sure how any of that would be "stolen" if my H had an A. Please explain?

 

Also, "offering the AP less than a while person" - sometimes the AP doesn't want "a whole person" (there have been several examples on these boards, esp where the AP is also M). And, sometimes the AP does get "a whole person" - there have been other examples on these boards too, where the APs live together even (BS and kids living elsewhere, for example).

 

It really depends on what the AP wants, and whether the WS is giving them what they want. Some do, some don't - and sometimes this changes over time.

[cocorico]

if you are trusting a cheater to tell you the truth WHILE he is cheating with you.....you are a fool.

 

Why would you trust anyone blindly? always verify, is my view, until proven otherwise.

[SolG]

I don't think it automatically follows that to behave in a way that is perceived as disrespectful actually indicates a lack of respect. Likewise, behavior that is perceived as intimate does not always correlates with actual intimacy (I'm referring here to intimacy in the emotional sense).

 

I think a lot of us have come across 'that guy' who obviously loves and cherishes his W and family, but on that four week work project overseas had a number of ONSs. He loves his W, but also loves strange. They don't cancel each other out. Paradoxically, he will never reveal this most (in common interpretation) unloving aspect of himself because he loves his W too much to risk her rejection. He respects her so much he can't stand to contemplate her seeing this 'lesser' side of himself.

 

And conversely an MM (or MW) can share deeply personal aspects of themselves with an AP, but do so because it presents no risk of rejection that matters. Either because they know the AP is so hooked they will not leave regardless, or because their leaving is of no signifigance. It may feel like intimacy, but it's actually a facsimile.

 

To me the true measure of intimacy is vulnerability. And vulnerability takes great strength. I believe you can measure (to a certain extent) love and respect in correlation to vulnerability. Is he/she in this moment being raw and risking my rejection in order to be more themselves in my eyes, or is this selective and egocentric?

 

Only you can answer...

[cocorico]

I don't think it automatically follows that to behave in a way that is perceived as disrespectful actually indicates a lack of respect.

 

 

To me it does.

 

I don't care if the person doesn't intend disrespect or not - if you treat me (or someone else) in "a way that is perceived as disrespectful" to me you are disrespecting me (or that other person). Someone else may be willing to put up with being disrespected in a R, but I'm not.

[jah526]

 

To me the true measure of intimacy is vulnerability. And vulnerability takes great strength. I believe you can measure (to a certain extent) love and respect in correlation to vulnerability. Is he/she in this moment being raw and risking my rejection in order to be more themselves in my eyes, or is this selective and egocentric?

 

Only you can answer...

 

I agree with this. But how can a MM ever be truly vulnerable with a single AP? What is he really risking - that she'll leave? Well, in that case, he still has his wife...

 

Being truly vulnerable is leaving the stability of his family life to venture into the unknown. Probably why so few ever take this step.

[Whoknew30]

I don't think it automatically follows that to behave in a way that is perceived as disrespectful actually indicates a lack of respect. Likewise, behavior that is perceived as intimate does not always correlates with actual intimacy (I'm referring here to intimacy in the emotional sense).

 

I think a lot of us have come across 'that guy' who obviously loves and cherishes his W and family, but on that four week work project overseas had a number of ONSs. He loves his W, but also loves strange. They don't cancel each other out. Paradoxically, he will never reveal this most (in common interpretation) unloving aspect of himself because he loves his W too much to risk her rejection. He respects her so much he can't stand to contemplate her seeing this 'lesser' side of himself.

 

And conversely an MM (or MW) can share deeply personal aspects of themselves with an AP, but do so because it presents no risk of rejection that matters. Either because they know the AP is so hooked they will not leave regardless, or because their leaving is of no signifigance. It may feel like intimacy, but it's actually a facsimile.

 

To me the true measure of intimacy is vulnerability. And vulnerability takes great strength. I believe you can measure (to a certain extent) love and respect in correlation to vulnerability. Is he/she in this moment being raw and risking my rejection in order to be more themselves in my eyes, or is this selective and egocentric?

 

Only you can answer...

 

Growing up around cheating, I just don't see it this way.

 

A man that continuously cheats, doesn't respect women as a whole. They end up with the woman, not particularly they can be vulnerable with but the woman that is less likely to leave if they are caught cheating...the "safe" option.

 

Now we're talking about men (women too) that have never been monogamous. A man with commitment issues has already tested the woman he's married & she may not even know it. No man with real commitment issues (& if a person is having multiple ONS, they have commitment issues) is going to end up with a woman that will run out the door if he gets caught & studies back that up bc infidelity is not the main cause of divorce & percentage is higher for a wife to forgive infidelity vs a husband. A man like that picks safely.

 

A person that continuously cheats is selfish & broken somewhere inside & doesn't respect themselves or anyone else a 100%...they love in the best way they can but without fixing what's broken inside, it will never be at the same level as an emotional healthy person.

[wmacbride]

Why would you trust anyone blindly? always verify, is my view, until proven otherwise.

 

This is the problem.

 

A lot of what people say isn't something you can verify.

 

For example, if I said my hair is blonde, that's easy enough to verify.

 

If I say I wish my hair was brown ( which I don't) there is really no way to verify that.

 

Even if I told people once I felt that way it still can't be verified.

 

Also, we all put our own spin on things we hear and experience. That is human nature. For example, one night, I had to take one of my children to the ER. She was admitted, and we had been told she might have a brain tumor ( she didn't,but it was still a serious issue). I stayed with her, and my spouse stayed at home.

 

This was just before the A started. I saw the chats on Facebook, and he was saying how I was at the hospital with our child and he was stressed.

 

To her, that meant I wasn't at home with him where I should be, and that made me a bad wife. After all, he was worried and I was selfish for not being there to comfort him.

 

That is not what he said, but that is her interpretation of his "truth".

 

I know that example is extreme and kind of weird, but we all do it in some form or another. To assume that somehow affairs are different is, on it's face, really difficult to believe.

[SolG]

To me it does.

 

I don't care if the person doesn't intend disrespect or not - if you treat me (or someone else) in "a way that is perceived as disrespectful" to me you are disrespecting me (or that other person). Someone else may be willing to put up with being disrespected in a R, but I'm not.

 

Coco, I understand your view and appreciate that many would share it. However, the OP speaks to understanding intent and motivation, not perception per se. And where something such as the sharing of intimate details with a spouse and/or AP can be perceived in different ways, intent and motivation can be quite ambiguous.

 

I agree with this. But how can a MM ever be truly vulnerable with a single AP? What is he really risking - that she'll leave? Well, in that case, he still has his wife...

 

Being truly vulnerable is leaving the stability of his family life to venture into the unknown. Probably why so few ever take this step.

 

There are many sources of vulnerability. Fear of rejection, condemnation, ridicule, etc; each with their own nuance and prominence contextually.

 

Growing up around cheating, I just don't see it this way.

 

A man that continuously cheats, doesn't respect women as a whole. They end up with the woman, not particularly they can be vulnerable with but the woman that is less likely to leave if they are caught cheating...the "safe" option.

 

Now we're talking about men (women too) that have never been monogamous. A man with commitment issues has already tested the woman he's married & she may not even know it. No man with real commitment issues (& if a person is having multiple ONS, they have commitment issues) is going to end up with a woman that will run out the door if he gets caught & studies back that up bc infidelity is not the main cause of divorce & percentage is higher for a wife to forgive infidelity vs a husband. A man like that picks safely.

 

A person that continuously cheats is selfish & broken somewhere inside & doesn't respect themselves or anyone else a 100%...they love in the best way they can but without fixing what's broken inside, it will never be at the same level as an emotional healthy person.

 

I think you draw some long bows. I don't believe in absolutes. I don't believe that all men that are serial cheats have a disrespect for women in general. Some... sure. All... no. I actually believe some are just really ****ty at monogamy but are afraid of the consequences of revealing this fact. In some cases because they know their W isn't a 'safe' doormat and the consequences could very well be a big old kicking to the curb! Hence the withholding that wouldn't otherwise be necessary.

 

And I also don't endorse cheating as pathology (eg, 'broken'). It denudes responsibility and accountability. Perfectly healthy people are quite capable of making poor decisions at times.

[cocorico]

This is the problem.

 

A lot of what people say isn't something you can verify.

 

Sure, the examples you give are difficult to establish without full context. I was referring to other, more obvious stuff - like, the MM claims he has no R with the BW, that they never go out as a couple, that they live separate lives, he sleeps in the spare room, etc. Those sorts of things are easy to verify, unless he lives as a hermit and has no interactions with anyone else at all. If he’s out and about with the BW, his friends would see and be able to comment; if he always attends work functions alone, acts like a single person in front of his extended family, or happily introduces his OW to friends, family, colleagues etc _as his GF_ that’s telling you something. If he invites you to his place and there’s clearly “her room” full of her stuff, and “his room”, full of his, likewise. Or, if his (or her)social media profiles are full of couples pics, or smiling family pics, speaking to a timeline of doing fun stuff together, that’s also information.

 

My point is just - the OW doesn’t need to take the MM at his word if he claims the M is xyz. There will be evidence to support or refute his claims. A wise OW will check out as much info as she can *before* she embroils herself and finds herself unable to walk away “because she loves him so much”. if you’re going to allow yourself to be in a situation where you’re vulnerable to falling in love, check out the guy first! (And not just if he’s M - it’s good practice whoever he is. Or she, of course.)

 

It always makes me sad reading about OW who are in the R up to their necks, so smitten they’re unable to walk away, who peek at MM /BW’s social media and discover things all along - check it out before you get involved.

[Whoknew30]

Coco, I understand your view and appreciate that many would share it. However, the OP speaks to understanding intent and motivation, not perception per se. And where something such as the sharing of intimate details with a spouse and/or AP can be perceived in different ways, intent and motivation can be quite ambiguous.

 

 

 

There are many sources of vulnerability. Fear of rejection, condemnation, ridicule, etc; each with their own nuance and prominence contextually.

 

 

 

I think you draw some long bows. I don't believe in absolutes. I don't believe that all men that are serial cheats have a disrespect for women in general. Some... sure. All... no. I actually believe some are just really ****ty at monogamy but are afraid of the consequences of revealing this fact. In some cases because they know their W isn't a 'safe' doormat and the consequences could very well be a big old kicking to the curb! Hence the withholding that wouldn't otherwise be necessary.

 

And I also don't endorse cheating as pathology (eg, 'broken'). It denudes responsibility and accountability. Perfectly healthy people are quite capable of making poor decisions at times.

 

I never said "all men"...I said anyone that has multiple ONS. Yes, they know deep down who they really are & are going to end up with someone they can fool easily. You think a person that knows they can't be faithful is ever going to end up with someone they can't manipulate...nope, they've done their homework. most manipulaters are smart.

 

Everyone

[Whoknew30]

Coco, I understand your view and appreciate that many would share it. However, the OP speaks to understanding intent and motivation, not perception per se. And where something such as the sharing of intimate details with a spouse and/or AP can be perceived in different ways, intent and motivation can be quite ambiguous.

 

 

 

There are many sources of vulnerability. Fear of rejection, condemnation, ridicule, etc; each with their own nuance and prominence contextually.

 

 

 

I think you draw some long bows. I don't believe in absolutes. I don't believe that all men that are serial cheats have a disrespect for women in general. Some... sure. All... no. I actually believe some are just really ****ty at monogamy but are afraid of the consequences of revealing this fact. In some cases because they know their W isn't a 'safe' doormat and the consequences could very well be a big old kicking to the curb! Hence the withholding that wouldn't otherwise be necessary.

 

And I also don't endorse cheating as pathology (eg, 'broken'). It denudes responsibility and accountability. Perfectly healthy people are quite capable of making poor decisions at times.

 

I'll also add...it's only women, that talk "does he respect" "he only does this or that bc of respect or love"...you'll never hear men speaking that way bc they know it's only semantics & many women get caught up in that vs actual actions & that's how a continual cheating man gets away with it...bc his actual action of being a cheater is being ignored. The logic that a man will cheat with other women bc he respects his wife too much...is the most ridiculous & embarrassing a woman could get caught up in.

 

They withhold bc they don't want to lose what that woman does for them...it's not the fear of actually losing her, the person...big difference.

[elaine567]

I'll also add...it's only women, that talk "does he respect" "he only does this or that bc of respect or love"...you'll never hear men speaking that way bc they know

it's only semantics & many women get caught up in that vs actual actions & that's how a continual cheating man gets away with it...bc his actual action of being a cheater is being ignored.

 

Agreed.

 

The problem with a MM/cheater sharing his deepest darkest secrets, his vulnerabilities and all that very personal stuff is that it is a tried and tested trick, used by PUAs, MM, bad boys, players, manipulators, psychopaths, sociopaths, abusers.. etc. in fact anyone up to no good and with an agenda.

Usually they share deep personal info, which prompts the "victim" to respond with like, the conversation/conversations then go deeper and deeper into emotional intimacy with the usual ultimate goal of physical intimacy. It builds bonds and provides the "connection" many women need before they will agree to sex or keep agreeing to sex against their own better judgement, and it also gives the "perpetrator" personal info about the "victim" that may come in useful later on.

Classic seduction technique.

 

So instead of going "OMG this guy is cheating on his wife and hurting his kids, the cad!"

She instead goes "Oh he had a very bad childhood and he was devastated when his Nan died... poor thing, I will kiss him better... and because his cold heartless wife/gf will not give him sex, I will show him some fun too..."

Edited September 24, 2017 by elaine567

[wmacbride]

Sure, the examples you give are difficult to establish without full context. I was referring to other, more obvious stuff - like, the MM claims he has no R with the BW, that they never go out as a couple, that they live separate lives, he sleeps in the spare room, etc. Those sorts of things are easy to verify, unless he lives as a hermit and has no interactions with anyone else at all. If he’s out and about with the BW, his friends would see and be able to comment; if he always attends work functions alone, acts like a single person in front of his extended family, or happily introduces his OW to friends, family, colleagues etc _as his GF_ that’s telling you something. If he invites you to his place and there’s clearly “her room” full of her stuff, and “his room”, full of his, likewise. Or, if his (or her)social media profiles are full of couples pics, or smiling family pics, speaking to a timeline of doing fun stuff together, that’s also information.

 

My point is just - the OW doesn’t need to take the MM at his word if he claims the M is xyz. There will be evidence to support or refute his claims. A wise OW will check out as much info as she can *before* she embroils herself and finds herself unable to walk away “because she loves him so much”. if you’re going to allow yourself to be in a situation where you’re vulnerable to falling in love, check out the guy first! (And not just if he’s M - it’s good practice whoever he is. Or she, of course.)

 

It always makes me sad reading about OW who are in the R up to their necks, so smitten they’re unable to walk away, who peek at MM /BW’s social media and discover things all along - check it out before you get involved.

 

All I can say is that most people, although not you, actually place some value on marriage and don't want to be "the other woman or other man". Even if they don;t place that value on it, they still don't want to come in second to anyone else.

 

Just because a guy/woman is acting single, doesn't make him so, and for many of us, it would go against our values system or even just our ego to be with someone who is married.

 

I know it wasn't your intent, but your examples just illustrated my point. Just because a potential ow/om doesn't see the object of their affection as being married, that doesn't make it not so.

[wmacbride]

Agreed.

 

The problem with a MM/cheater sharing his deepest darkest secrets, his vulnerabilities and all that very personal stuff is that it is a tried and tested trick, used by PUAs, MM, bad boys, players, manipulators, psychopaths, sociopaths, abusers.. etc. in fact anyone up to no good and with an agenda.

Usually they share deep personal info, which prompts the "victim" to respond with like, the conversation/conversations then go deeper and deeper into emotional intimacy with the usual ultimate goal of physical intimacy. It builds bonds and provides the "connection" many women need before they will agree to sex or keep agreeing to sex against their own better judgement, and it also gives the "perpetrator" personal info about the "victim" that may come in useful later on.

Classic seduction technique.

 

So instead of going "OMG this guy is cheating on his wife and hurting his kids, the cad!"

She instead goes "Oh he had a very bad childhood and he was devastated when his Nan died... poor thing, I will kiss him better... and because his cold heartless wife/gf will not give him sex, I will show him some fun too..."

 

I have heard that people who are psychopathic are actually the ultimate empaths and can read people like a book. This is what allows them to hurt so many and cause so much damage. They are true empaths, and when coupled with the fact they feel no remorse, this makes them dangerous, even if just emotionally.

[Furious]

I was thinking about a comment in another thread about respect and wanted to open up to the thoughts of others. It was something along the lines of the mm being able to show all of himself to the ow and "loving" her for that acceptance but only being able to.do so because he doesn't really respect her or care what she thinks whereas he may lie to his wife but because he respects her.

 

I kind of understand this thinking, I wondered that myself but I think its not accurate. There is no respect in the act of deceit. Can someone respect a person while behaving disrepectfully? Is the mm temporarily acting against who he his (values/thoughts) and will have regret and remorse for being in opposition to that ? Or is he expressing his real self and really doesn't have respect or guilt ? For anyone. Is there love without respect? Respect without honesty ?

 

I thought exmm talking to me about his M was disrepectful to me and his W, but context matters too. People in open or poly relationships may discuss relations with others. Its the lack of openness. They may do things sexually with one they don't do with another without it indicating more or less respect. Its the secrecy that screws with peoples minds and esteem.

 

We can only determine our own standards of respect and how we expect and will let others treat us. Doesn't matter in comparison to anyone else (like the bs) being treated better or worse.

 

 

It really comes down to character, it's cliche but so true that character is displayed when no one is looking.

 

The debate about whether the betrayed spouse or ow/om is the recipient of respect seems to be an oxymoron and only an exercise in rhetoric.

 

No one wishes to be disrespected.......period. Unfortunately it's beyond anyone's control to guarantee respect.

 

Most often it's a bargain in faith and trust.

 

I personally do not see respect for a betrayed spouse or an ow/om from the WS in the true sense. I do believe that those who defend deceit use justification to excuse behaviour that benefits oneself.

 

One can argue that everyone is vulnerable at times without correlating it to deceit, one can argue that some people know everyone they know is cheating and yet that's not the norm...etc.......

 

The only real respect comes from within and how that projects to those around you. Those that understand respect and practice respect are rarely a part of deceit.

[sandylee1]

I'd say respect means different things to different people. Just as love means different things.

 

A MM/MW having an affair isn't respecting themself.

 

They aren't respecting their spouse and they aren't respecting their AP.

 

A former cheater who has fully reflected on their affair would come to this realisation.