"Their marriage was on the rocks" [as an affair reason]

[Birdies]

I don't normally respond to this question, but since it's on topic in this situation I will.

 

Technically, no I wasn't involved in an EA. I wasn't in a relationship and neither was the other woman. Wife and I divorced, years later got back together. She was pregnant. I received an offer for a career change in another State. My my girlfriend (ex wife and currently married) refused to go without being married, understandable. I mean, it was alot, she owns her own business. I moved she ended our relationship ( technically) it was at this point my involvement with this other woman happened. Both women were fully aware of what was going on. Technically, not an affair... inappropriate maybe. I felt guilty for putting both in that situation.

 

Lol that was pretty convoluted, but I think I followed it. Thanks. Sorry, I thought you were back with the ex - but it was when she was pregnant with your baby but you had just broken up again? Regardless of what lines were blurred when, this does kind of generally illustrate my point about once an affair happens, staying within the lines and respecting the marriage becomes a little more complicated.

 

Curious what BSes think.... do you give a little more leeway to a BS who feels their marriage never recovered, that their WS never took responsibility for the affair and for helping their spouse heal, and then later has an affair of their own? I think I would, but hard to say without being in that situation.

[DKT3]

Lol that was pretty convoluted, but I think I followed it. Thanks. Sorry, I thought you were back with the ex - but it was when she was pregnant with your baby but you had just broken up again? Regardless of what lines were blurred when, this does kind of generally illustrate my point about once an affair happens, staying within the lines and respecting the marriage becomes a little more complicated.

 

Curious what BSes think.... do you give a little more leeway to a BS who feels their marriage never recovered, that their WS never took responsibility for the affair and for helping their spouse heal, and then later has an affair of their own? I think I would, but hard to say without being in that situation.

 

I think in our situation, it was the case. My wife told me when we first started spending time together after the divorce that she didn't expect my fidelity, that she didn't deserve it. It was guilt, she has since said I would be dismembered....a joke I think...

[wmacbride]

That was my "motive" for my A as the WS. My marriage was truly in a bad place & I was using the A as a exit strategie for sure. I'm not defending my wrong doing bc I definitely made the wrong choice but in my personal situation, the AP didn't cause the issues that already existed.

 

We're all different, I wouldn't have had an A had I not been ready to divorce & I did tell OM that & made it clear that if i did get divorced, it was not bc of him & there was no promise that I'd be with him. So I'm sure it took away from his personal guilt of him being the reason for the break up of my marriage, had that occurred.

 

Which is probably why it's said...AP are listening & believing the same lying WS as the BS.

 

That's the thing though. There is a difference between saying " my marriage wasn't good. I was unhappy. I made the choice and had an affair".

 

That is someone owning their actions, which ti sounds like is what you are doing.

 

It's quite different to say "my marriage wasn't good and I was forced to cheat".

 

The difference is subtle, but it's there.

[wmacbride]

What is it you don't buy ?

 

That thier are people who actually may have oppourtunity but choose not to cheat .while other do .

 

Because I am one of them ...i have plenty oppourtunity but I would not cheat.if I am that unhappy I would leave first .It's choices we make .

 

and there it is, in a nutshell.

[wmacbride]

True. And then there's the "I am not married to her/him (the BS), so I have no responsibility. The WS is the ones who is wrong.

 

That doesn't wash either. Let's say I give my fiance a large gift. I gave that/promised that to him. Then I meet someone and decide, without his knowledge, to take that item and give it to someone else. If that person knows it isn't mine to give and they take it anyway....that says something about THEIR character, and it isn't anything good.

 

Some things just ARE, no matter how you try to twist them. This is one of them.

 

I agree.

Personally, to me, there are some things that are just plain wrong. That doesn't mean the person doing them is evil incarnate, doomed to forever cheat or get into affairs.

It more than likley means they made some bad choices.

 

I compare it to someone walking down the street. The person is hungry and sees a pie cooling on a open window sill ( does anyone still do that?).

 

The pie looks delicious and it is just sitting there, alone and ignored.

 

Should that man eat the pie? Is his hunger an excuse?

 

What if he hasn't eaten in a couple of days, but has money in is pocket. Should he grab the pie or go and buy himself a meal?

 

Affairs are like that. I have never ever in my whole life heard of a situation where someone had absolutely no choice in the world but to get involved in an affair. There are alternatives.

 

At least, if someone is going to got involved in an affair, they ought to own it.

[Whoknew30]

That's the thing though. There is a difference between saying " my marriage wasn't good. I was unhappy. I made the choice and had an affair".

 

That is someone owning their actions, which ti sounds like is what you are doing.

 

It's quite different to say "my marriage wasn't good and I was forced to cheat".

 

The difference is subtle, but it's there.

 

Who would be saying "forced to bc of a unhappy marriage" the lying WS right? That's kind of my point...if a WS is stating things like that to a BS after d/day then can you imagine the lies they have told the AP? If someone lies to that point after being caught, does that sound as they were just "stolen"?

 

I'm not defending AP, some are out of their minds but in my personal experience they are were many that were chased by WS, hard. So even though they made a wrong choice, it's hard to wonder why someone that's going to stay married & is happy, would chase them that way.

[DKT3]

Who would be saying "forced to bc of a unhappy marriage" the lying WS right? That's kind of my point...if a WS is stating things like that to a BS after d/day then can you imagine the lies they have told the AP? If someone lies to that point after being caught, does that sound as they were just "stolen"?

 

I'm not defending AP, some are out of their minds but in my personal experience they are were many that were chased by WS, hard. So even though they made a wrong choice, it's hard to wonder why someone that's going to stay married & is happy, would chase them that way.

 

But you are defending (not APs in general but your AP specifically) it all boils down to personal morals and boundaries. It doesn't matter that you still think highly of your AP.

 

If one jumps in a car with a friend and then that friend robs a bank without his knowledge he may not be held accountable. However, if he stays in the car and they rob anonymous bank is he still not accountable?

 

Sure the AP isn't the cause of the issues, however he isn't an ally either, he was your partner in crime. Time to pull him down off that pedistal.

[Whoknew30]

But you are defending (not APs in general but your AP specifically) it all boils down to personal morals and boundaries. It doesn't matter that you still think highly of your AP.

 

If one jumps in a car with a friend and then that friend robs a bank without his knowledge he may not be held accountable. However, if he stays in the car and they rob anonymous bank is he still not accountable?

 

Sure the AP isn't the cause of the issues, however he isn't an ally either, he was your partner in crime. Time to pull him down off that pedistal.

 

I personally don't have "partners in crime". If I choose to do something wrong, I don't care who it's with, it's a 100% my fault. No one made me, talked me into it & or tricked me nor do I put or have ever personally put anyone on a pedestal. I'm just coming from a "not blame anyone for my personal accountability"...had the exact frame of mind during H A...didn't care about the OW, she's her own problem, not mine.

 

So to answer your question...yes my passenger would be accountable to themselves but if I'm the driver (or my spouse is) then all I'm worried about is me & want to know what was going on with my spouse....passenger means nothing to me (unless it was someone else I also loved) could care a less if they "get away" with it. .

Edited September 21, 2017 by Whoknew30
Spell check

[DKT3]

I personally don't have "partners in crime". If I choose to do something wrong, I don't care who it's with, it's a 100% my fault. No one made me, talked me into it & or tricked me nor do I put or have ever personally put anyone on a pedestal. I'm just coming from a "not blame anyone for my personal accountability"...had the exact frame of mind during H A...didn't care about the OW, she's her own problem, not mine.

 

So to answer your question...yes my passenger would be accountable to themselves but if I'm the driver (or my spouse is) then all I'm worried about is me & want to know what was going on with my spouse....passenger means nothing to me (unless it was someone else I also loved) could care a less if they "get away" with it. .

 

I get that, but that isn't really what you're saying is it? You commented that the BS should have no ill will towards the AP. Which is totally crap. Maybe intellectually you are correct, but we humans are emotionally based.

 

Here is what I've gotten from you since you've joined. Men cheat because, well they are men. Women cheat because the husband made the Marriage horrible. APs are not to blame because he was a awesome dude who only slept with a married woman because he was lied too.

[wmacbride]

Who would be saying "forced to bc of a unhappy marriage" the lying WS right? That's kind of my point...if a WS is stating things like that to a BS after d/day then can you imagine the lies they have told the AP? If someone lies to that point after being caught, does that sound as they were just "stolen"?

 

I'm not defending AP, some are out of their minds but in my personal experience they are were many that were chased by WS, hard. So even though they made a wrong choice, it's hard to wonder why someone that's going to stay married & is happy, would chase them that way.

 

I will completely agree that no ow or mm is capable of forcing a married person to cheat. They are responsible for their behavior.

 

But if each person is responsible for their own choices, then it shouldn't make any difference how much a ws "chased" an ow or a om. Funny thing is this is so often used as an excuse.

[Whoknew30]

I get that, but that isn't really what you're saying is it? You commented that the BS should have no ill will towards the AP. Which is totally crap. Maybe intellectually you are correct, but we humans are emotionally based.

 

Here is what I've gotten from you since you've joined. Men cheat because, well they are men. Women cheat because the husband made the Marriage horrible. APs are not to blame because he was a awesome dude who only slept with a married woman because he was lied too.

 

No, I'm sorry but I'm a woman & emotional & not once did I go off or make OW a priority, she wasn't a thought after D/Day & that's the truth. She wasn't my problem. Now if one can't do that themselves, they shouldn't be frustrated hearing someone else can or did...

 

Most men cheat more...it's a scientific fact. Women tend to cheat more so for emotional needs that aren't being met. I NEVER have said anything about a OM being lied to in every situation but most men when having a married, attractive woman coming at them will cheat bc yep, they're men... also .if your wife OM was it in for just sex & strictly using her (& that's what all OM do according to your logic) then isn't you saying "men are being men"? Isn't that king of the same as me saying men cheat bc they're men?

 

I also don't understand why it bothers yo personally so much I don't hate my OM...one usually doesn't hate someone when they don't blame them for their wrong doings...same reason I don't have one ounce of Ill will towards OW...neither of them were at fault for what we chose to do.

 

Betrayal comes from those you love, not strangers. IMO

[DKT3]

No, I'm sorry but I'm a woman & emotional & not once did I go off or make OW a priority, she wasn't a thought after D/Day & that's the truth. She wasn't my problem. Now if one can't do that themselves, they shouldn't be frustrated hearing someone else can or did...

 

Most men cheat more...it's a scientific fact. Women tend to cheat more so for emotional needs that aren't being met. I NEVER have said anything about a OM being lied to in every situation but most men when having a married, attractive woman coming at them will cheat bc yep, they're men... also .if your wife OM was it in for just sex & strictly using her (& that's what all OM do according to your logic) then isn't you saying "men are being men"? Isn't that king of the same as me saying men cheat bc they're men?

 

I also don't understand why it bothers yo personally so much I don't hate my OM...one usually doesn't hate someone when they don't blame them for their wrong doings...same reason I don't have one ounce of Ill will towards OW...neither of them were at fault for what we chose to do.

 

Betrayal comes from those you love, not strangers. IMO

not that you don't hate him, but that you stated you will always love him. I empathize with your husband in this situation.

 

This isn't a situation where this guy was an ex and independent of your marriage. He isn't, he is a man you were with while betraying you're husband. He is a enemy of your marriage but his lack of personal responsibility allowed him to sleep with a married woman.

 

It's amazing that you don't seem to understand that. It's a contradiction to love your ex(?) OM yet claim to be reconciled. Especially since you say you've been NC for a decade. It's pretty unique.

Edited September 22, 2017 by DKT3

[aileD]

So wow thanks for all the responses, I love the thoughts that are flying back and forth.

 

Just want to clarify that this wasnt really a personal post for me or my situation. And the reason why I singled out AP was because I had just read a thread where the AP went on and on about how her MM's marriage was bad.. And it just got me thinking..... that's not really a reason....I mean a bad marriage is still a MARRIAGE, right? The vows don't say "forsaking all others...unless things are bad"

 

I have always said and still say that my husband was 100% responsible for his part in the affair and his AP was also 100% responsible for her part. There's no 50/50. There's no 75/25. There's no "well he tricked me/lied to me/manipulated me or "she pursued me even though she knew I was married".

 

Everyone wants to talk about grey areas. I don't believe in grey areas. If there's a marriage in place and AP knows about it - they should have said no, unless they had permission from the spouse. Obviously there would t be a need to say no if MM followed this too.

 

So I know it doesn't change anything. It's not a perfect world we live in. It just struck me as a very simple thing. A bad apple is still an apple. You can't make peach pie out of it. A bad law is still a law you will have consequences for breaking. A truth is still a truth.

 

Me and H talked about many things when we reconciled and thru this long process. We talked about living together as friends but having outside relationships. We talked about divorce, we talked about swinging, we talked about renewing vows, we talked about a lot of different things. But one thing was always clear. Our marriage is our marriage. If you're unhappy-leave before you cheat, or discuss the other options again so I can decide what I want for MY life with full awareness of everything. Reconciliation isn't easy. But there's no grey area. My husband's AP gave him a ring once. He wore it once and took it off, because it made him uncomfortable because he already had that commitment with me, he told her "I can't wear this...I'm married". And yes it seems stupid because he was cheating which is much worse than wearing g a ring but it was something simple like that thst opened his eyes to the wrongness of it even though he was unhappily married.

 

For the BS who turns to a revenge affair I say : marriage is marriage. Talk to your H or get a divorce first. To the AP being manipulated/lied to/etc I say: I know there's a tornado in your head of feelings and things he said but just stop and Answer one question---"is he legally married?" If yes, stay away unless you verify with his wife that they agreed to open their marriage or are getting separated. To the MM I say: get divorced first or at least talk to your wife and tell her you are going to see other people so she can decide what she wants to do with her part of the marriage.

[preraph]

I agree. But having been there on more than one occasion, I think you have to have a sharp eye to tell who is really in the process of leaving and who is just cheating. I found myself in that situation three times. But at least they really were divorcing. It doesn't make it much easier on the new woman though because they have a lot of emotional crap still to get through and usually running wild dating around. Two were already separated and one I didn't know was married until we'd already done the deed but then he also did divorce right away, though I didn't stick around for it. These were all guys in their mid to late 20s who had married their high school sweetheart and outgrown each other. It's a juncture that a lot of people who marry young face. Only the 3rd one had a kid (which I also didn't know about). That made it way worse in my mind.

[aileD]

, I think you have to have a sharp eye to tell who is really in the process of leaving and who is just cheating.

 

NO YOU DON'T!!!!! That's the whole point of the post.

 

IF HE IS MARRIED, THERE SHOULD BE NO FIGURING IT OUT. There's not a difference. Being "in the process of leaving" is STILL MARRIED.

 

you don't need a sharp eye. you need a Divorce decree. And if they don't have one and it "complicated". Then you ASK THE OTHER SPOUSE if the marriage is truly over and they are aware their spouse is dating.

 

No grey areas

[elaine567]

I get the no grey areas, married or single. Black and white.

BUT there is a big difference between a man who may not be divorced true but who moved out, has his own apartment/house, lives a completely separate life from his "spouse" and has done so for a long time, and one who is "separated" or "leaving" but who is still at home and sharing a bed or (that old chestnut) is sleeping in the guest room...

[cocorico]

It doesn't matter if the marriage was rocky, bad, dead, etc.......it's still a MARRIAGE.

 

No, it's not.

 

If one person (or both) has checked out to the extent that they're acting (chronically) as a single person, then it is no longer a marriage.

 

Why should anyone outside of the marriage assign more value to the marriage than those in it? And if at least one person is wiping their feet on the marriage, it's signalling to the world at large that it's nothing of value. So, people will take the cue and treat it as such.

 

If you make a drawing on a piece of scrap paper, scrumple it up and throw it in the wastepaper basket, you can't blame the person who empties the wastepaper basket into the rubbish bin. If you wanted your drawing in an art gallery, you should have framed it and treated it well - throwing it away signals to everyone that it's just rubbish, and so they'll treat it as such.

[cocorico]

 

you need a Divorce decree. And if they don't have one and it "complicated". Then you ASK THE OTHER SPOUSE if the marriage is truly over and they are aware their spouse is dating.

 

No grey areas

 

Asking the spouse only works if the spouse is on the same page. Many aren't, and still cling to the ashes of a dead M long after the other person has left. There have been examples on these boards of spouses who - even after the D is final, even after the x has remarried and had kids with the new partner - still consider themselves the "real" spouse and their M "blessed" and the new M some kind of fantasy, and speak of the x spouse as "their spouse" - in complete denial of reality. Some people are just too invested to face reality.

 

Far better, IMV, to observe how someone lives, how they interact with others over a long time. Who is included in their lives and who not. Who do they introduce to their family, invite to family gatherings, spend time with, take to work events, etc. If the "spouse" isn't part of their lives in any recognisable way, it's not a marriage in any real way.

[cocorico]

 

ow happily plays status quo ignoring a wife exist .

 

Not really. Most OW take their cue from the MM. If the BW is a big deal to him, the OW often spend a lot of time researching the BW, checking her out on social media, etc. If the MM acts as if the BW doesn't exist, then the OW typically follows suit. If the BW doesn't matter to the MM, why should she matter to the OW?

[aileD]

The point of this thread, cocorio, is basically to point that everything you just said is a bunch of bull**** grey areas. So thank you for proving my point.

 

You use your MM's bad marriage as an excuse for getting involved and justifying it and I don't agree with that, I think it's a crap excuse. . And that's the reason for the post

[aileD]

I get the no grey areas, married or single. Black and white.

BUT there is a big difference between a man who may not be divorced true but who moved out, has his own apartment/house, lives a completely separate life from his "spouse" and has done so for a long time, and one who is "separated" or "leaving" but who is still at home and sharing a bed or (that old chestnut) is sleeping in the guest room...

 

Yes, I would agree with this. That's not a grey area to me. If they've been long separated, moved out, custody arranged and just haven't filed the paperwork...

[aileD]

The point of this thread, cocorio, is basically to point that everything you just said is a bunch of bull**** grey areas. So thank you for proving my point.

 

You use your MM's bad marriage as an excuse for getting involved and justifying it and I don't agree with that, I think it's a crap excuse. . And that's the reason for the post

 

 

Just to be clear the post wasn't about you..

[aileD]

Why should anyone outside of the marriage assign more value to the marriage than those in it? And if at least one person is wiping their feet on the marriage, it's signalling to the world at large that it's nothing of value. So, people will take the cue and treat it as such.

 

 

Why? Because it's not your marriage to value or not.. There's a BOUNDARY there that should be respected even if one of the people in the marriage isn't treating it well. It's their bad marriage to figure out. It's their -both of them- problem to decide to divorce or not. It's none of anyone else's business to get involved in something that isn't yours regardless of who tries to pull you in.

[cocorico]

Why? Because it's not your marriage to value or not.. There's a BOUNDARY there that should be respected even if one of the people in the marriage isn't treating it well. It's their bad marriage to figure out. It's their -both of them- problem to decide to divorce or not. It's none of anyone else's business to get involved in something that isn't yours regardless of who tries to pull you in.

 

That's just bizarre. If someone walks around telling me they're from planet Zog, and their name is Beezlezonk, and I'm to address them as Your Royal Highness Prince Beezlezonk of Zog, I'm not going to feed their delusion. I'm going to follow observable evidence and treat them as the human being they are. And if someone acts married, I'll treat them as married, whether they have the piece of paper or not. Likewise, if they act single, that's how I - and others - will treat them.

[elaine567]

No, it's not.

If one person (or both) has checked out to the extent that they're acting (chronically) as a single person, then it is no longer a marriage.

 

Maybe, but it seems to me that many married people hide the fact they are "acting like a single", from their spouse

They will often persuade the BS that everything is OK, or that they are "working on the marriage" or that their spouse IS the "love of their life" and they are going nowhere, or "OK I have been a bit sh*tty recently but I am just stressed..."

So whilst they may feel the marriage is a sham or over, or they tell their OW that is the case, they have at the same time also done a pretty good job of covering their ass by deceiving their spouse into thinking the opposite is true.

 

The assumption that BSs cling onto dead marriages, is often based on what a MM may say to an OW, when the reality may be that he is often telling one thing to his spouse and quite another to the OW, the real truth as he actually sees it, is often open to question.

The OW tends to jump on the chance to have him all to herself, so justifies her involvement, by saying I have done nothing wrong, the marriage was "on the rocks" long before I came into it...

 

Truth is many cheaters are cake eaters and they do whatever they can get away with and if that means lying to a trusting spouse or feeding lies to gullible OW then that is what they will do.

Ultimately they "choose" where they feel their bread is best buttered or where they they have no other option, but to go in that direction.

Anyone who feels they "won", needs to question what it is they exactly did win...