Still struggling...

[Yosemite]

Actually, she is quite attractive, and certainly has interests in line with my own.

 

*However women who are interested do give what I perceive to be clear signs, as I do recognize them. I simply don't receive them.

 

So, an attractive woman who has several interests in common with you, stays with you the entire time in the club, goes to the bar area with you when you ask her to, leaves with you, agrees to let you walk her home, gives you her last name so that you can find her on Facebook and you don’t think that she gave you any clear signs of interest? It doesn’t get any clearer than that OP. What exactly did you want her to do? I’m not being sarcastic, I’m genuinely asking, what exact action could she have taken that night that you would consider a clear sign of interest? Did you want her to ask you out? Did you want her to say the words, “I find you attractive and will say yes if you ask me out?” Not trying to give you a hard time, but think about it.

 

I’m curious to know if she came to the club by herself, because if she ditched her friends in order to walk home with you, that’s another huge sign that she was interested in you.

 

You did several things right that night, you spoke to her first when you were in the club, you invited her to the bar section, you offered to walk her home. The only place where you went wrong was not asking her out. With a few tweaks, you can have the active dating life that you claim that you want, but in order to have it, you have to ask women out.

 

Fed up of this ****. I'm not attractive to women and I should just accept it. I give up.

 

Normal Person is right that this sort of thing is really unattractive and you need to stop. You may think that no one IRL can tell that you feel this way, but they can.

[LightWave93]

You did several things right that night, you spoke to her first when you were in the club, you invited her to the bar section, you offered to walk her home. The only place where you went wrong was not asking her out. With a few tweaks, you can have the active dating life that you claim that you want, but in order to have it, you have to ask women out.

 

Aside from the incorrect assumption that it was at a club, the information is accurate.

 

No, I was not expecting her to ask me out etc. However, I do know the difference between a woman who is comfortable in your company and considers you a friend, and one that is attracted to you; it's hard to put into words, but I know it when I see it. I can assure you with this particular woman it was the former, I was simply the most approachable / easiest person to converse with. Not to mention this scenario has played out many times over the course of my time at university and all with women who consider me as a friend.

 

Normal Person is right that this sort of thing is really unattractive and you need to stop. You may think that no one IRL can tell that you feel this way, but they can.

 

Tell me; how would you feel in my situation, knowing you've pulled out all the stops to better yourself and your chances and still come up short? Even when I go out looking my best, smelling my best, with a smile and in a good mood, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference, and yet apparently it should be noticeable like night and day.

 

I'm not having ago. I can imagine reading this thread is INCREDIBLY frustrating for anyone. I really appreciate people taking the time to help. I just don't understand how I can convey to you all that I do try out these things suggested and nothing happens.

 

Ya'll right about one thing and that's that I need to be more positive, which is why I'm seeking counselling and anti-depressants. At least I'll be able to live my life for myself.

 

 

 

In other news, my ex texted me today and that's made me feel sad / uncomfortable. I've blocked her number now. Sad, as she was a good one, but unless she specifically says she wants to work on things, I'm not giving her my time.

Edited October 7, 2017 by LightWave93

[Miss Spider]

But you didn't pull out all the stops that time because you didn't ask her out...So we will never really know what could have come of that . We can assume but we do not know.

 

It's great you are seeking therapy and medication. Do you think you might be dealing with feelings for your ex making dating harder?

[LightWave93]

But you didn't pull out all the stops that time because you didn't ask her out...So we will never really know what could have come of that . We can assume but we do not know.

 

True, but I have good intuition for this sort of thing. The women I have dated in the past have all given clear signals for me to bounce off from. Besides, I don't intend nor desire to ask out every woman I find attractive / have something in common with.

 

It's great you are seeking therapy and medication. Do you think you might be dealing with feelings for your ex making dating harder?

 

This situation has been around for a number of years, so whilst I'm sure my ex plays a part in my current lower mood, I can guarantee it will remain an issue once that's dealt with.

 

I do care for my ex and have taken steps to move on. Unfortunately she had issues which prevented us being together which is a shame as we clicked. There's still a part of me that wants her back but hey-ho, only natural to feel that way.

[CptInsano]

Honestly, it depends on where I am as to whether or not I'm focused on the outcome. Believe it or not, most social situations I'll approach / talk to a woman with nothing in mind. I'm simply being social. Obviously the underlying reason for doing so is to build social connections and meet possible dates, but I don't actively think of it going in.

 

This isn't what I was talking about. Being social is a prerequisite, and has its own merits but I was talking about talking to women in a different sense, being unambiguous about what you want. And it is more about that you are willing to taking that risk rather than the end result each and every time you take it.

 

Indeed, it's only really at a party / club where my focus comes into play. That isn't to say I don't think about it any other time, but it's the main occurrence.

 

That would be an issue in itself, because if you are like me, you spend very little time in clubs but are in contact with other people on numerous other occasions.

 

To put it selfishly, I just find it extremely frustrating / upsetting that men that are conventionally less attractive than me have no issue scoring or having women approach them, and I seem to remain on the sidelines.

You remain on the sidelines because you don't play. This may be a stereotype, but I found it to be true: Women like men to take an active role during the early phases.

 

Now, here's where I will admit a fault. Shortly after my mate pulled, I took someone aside and asked them if I was doing anything wrong. They said no and asked if I wanted a wingman. She pointed at a girl dancing nearby and asked if I liked her, but at this point (and completely unexpected) I choked up, started to stutter and told my friend not to bother.

Yeah, that would have been a chance. But even that was just a prelude to the main act, which is actually making contact with that woman beyond just something casual. Edited October 7, 2017 by CptInsano

[CptInsano]

Besides, I don't intend nor desire to ask out every woman I find attractive / have something in common with.

 

Why not? If I really have something in common with somebody I would ask her out.

[LightWave93]

This isn't what I was talking about. Being social is a prerequisite, and has its own merits but I was talking about talking to women in a different sense, being unambiguous about what you want. And it is more about that you are willing to taking that risk rather than the end result each and every time you take it.

 

Apologies for the misunderstanding, though I don't really know what else to add to that other than I do flirt with women I take an interest in.

 

Well, try to.

 

You remain on the sidelines because you don't play. This may be a stereotype, but I found it to be true: Women like men to take an active role during the early phases.

 

I don't really take issue with that (save the fact it would be easier ), and I've most certainly been the initiator for the few dates I have had.

 

Yeah, that would have been a chance. But even that was just a prelude to the main act, which is actually making contact with that woman beyond just something casual.

 

Indeed, albeit at that point I wasn't in the best of moods so that + no experience in this particular area didn't result in anything happening. There was another girl dancing next to me for a long time but...meh...I'm probably just being too hopeful.

 

Why not? If I really have something in common with somebody I would ask her out.

 

Saw her more as a friend than a lover.

[CptInsano]

Indeed, albeit at that point I wasn't in the best of moods so that + no experience in this particular area didn't result in anything happening. There was another girl dancing next to me for a long time but...meh...I'm probably just being too hopeful.

 

Regardless of your experience or the lack thereof, doing something would be a step forward at this point. Don't overthink how you approach her. In my experience women will pick up the conversation very quickly if interested, meaning that it matters less what you do, but that you have the nerve to do something.

[Sweetfish]

Lightwave93 one word of advice.. You're young and in college and exhibiting husband like qualities aka nice guy qualities aka beta qualities. The average female in college is not worrying about finding a nice guy.. she wants a fun guy and exciting guy who respects her. You should really get off OkCupid, Tinder, and other OLDs. On OLD you're just another face and women see good looking men all day long with good profiles. Spoiler Alert: They are not looking for good looks or a good profile. If that was the case many men would easily be able to pick up a date on Tinder or OLD simply by manipulating the content on the profile to project an amazing person. Unfortunately, many men and women do this and I am not suggesting this.

 

To get OLD advice from women is a dead end in my opinion. These are the same women who are rejecting 80% of men on OLD. They will approve of your profile and you will still fall into the 80% I have yet to see on this forum a female help tweak a mans profile that allowed him to achieve more dates or responses.

 

I went to a university where women accounted for 10% of the student population and I was still able to have relationships. I been their and I understand. I also was a volunteer for the suicide hot line and the area I was going to school had the highest suicide rates because men out populated the women in the county. This pushed loneliness and drinking, which pushed depression, and was followed by thoughts of self reject.

 

 

Now you can spend your time and efforts with PUAs, dating coaches, and so on or your can go to college and excel in your field and stop messing around with the rubiks cube known as dating. you can use this time productively to excel in your self. A lot of these women in college will cling to the fun guys and later trade up for a more responsible man that wants a family. These fun guys are the same ones they get tired of and divorce later on because they do not grow up.

 

All my female friends can't understand why I have no luck / am single.

 

Women are attracted to you. You just don't know. Men are the ones who have to make the move and if you don't they won't. Most women put the cards on you to approach them because it alleviates any anxiety or embarrassment on their end

[LightWave93]

Lightwave93 one word of advice.. You're young and in college and exhibiting husband like qualities aka nice guy qualities aka beta qualities. The average female in college is not worrying about finding a nice guy.. she wants a fun guy and exciting guy who respects her. You should really get off OkCupid, Tinder, and other OLDs. On OLD you're just another face and women see good looking men all day long with good profiles. Spoiler Alert: They are not looking for good looks or a good profile. If that was the case many men would easily be able to pick up a date on Tinder or OLD simply by manipulating the content on the profile to project an amazing person. Unfortunately, many men and women do this and I am not suggesting this.

 

To get OLD advice from women is a dead end in my opinion. These are the same women who are rejecting 80% of men on OLD. They will approve of your profile and you will still fall into the 80% I have yet to see on this forum a female help tweak a mans profile that allowed him to achieve more dates or responses.

 

I went to a university where women accounted for 10% of the student population and I was still able to have relationships. I been their and I understand. I also was a volunteer for the suicide hot line and the area I was going to school had the highest suicide rates because men out populated the women in the county. This pushed loneliness and drinking, which pushed depression, and was followed by thoughts of self reject.

 

 

Now you can spend your time and efforts with PUAs, dating coaches, and so on or your can go to college and excel in your field and stop messing around with the rubiks cube known as dating. you can use this time productively to excel in your self. A lot of these women in college will cling to the fun guys and later trade up for a more responsible man that wants a family. These fun guys are the same ones they get tired of and divorce later on because they do not grow up.

 

 

 

Women are attracted to you. You just don't know. Men are the ones who have to make the move and if you don't they won't. Most women put the cards on you to approach them because it alleviates any anxiety or embarrassment on their end

 

Honestly, if my value in the eyes of women is to simply be the guy they settle for / have children with, then screw them. I ain't being used like that...I have more value than that.

[normal person]

Now, here's where I will admit a fault. Shortly after my mate pulled, I took someone aside and asked them if I was doing anything wrong. They said no and asked if I wanted a wingman. She pointed at a girl dancing nearby and asked if I liked her, but at this point (and completely unexpected) I choked up, started to stutter and told my friend not to bother.

 

I would stop asking people if you're doing anything wrong. It makes you look desperate and insecure, which like I said, is what you should be avoiding at all costs. Figure it out yourself. Act like you have answers. Someone who's always preoccupied and focused with trying to get a girl and asking what they're doing wrong is basically just advertising the fact that they're the lowest rung on the totem pole. Doing the wrong thing with conviction is better than looking insecure, in my opinion. Extenuating circumstances apply, of course.

 

Tell me; how would you feel in my situation, knowing you've pulled out all the stops to better yourself and your chances and still come up short? Even when I go out looking my best, smelling my best, with a smile and in a good mood, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference, and yet apparently it should be noticeable like night and day.

 

You didn't pull out all the stops though. You told your friend not to bother. You know what's much more attractive than putting on your nice shirt and your cologne? Confidence. Maybe it didn't make a difference because no one cares what you look/smell like if you're desperate and insecure.

 

And sorry to sound like a jerk, but your feelings are irrelevant and attempts to garner any type of sympathy from people or from some karmic force only worsen your situation. It's not like if you reach some certain threshold of misfortune that a girlfriend will be granted to you in an act of contrition. Everyone knows you're having a hard time and is trying to help. Saying "how would you feel?" just makes you look worse. I've said it a bunch -- you need to drop this whole attitude. If you say anything close to this to anyone in real life, game over.

 

This is coming from someone who is happy to take risks. At this point it's fair to say my confidence with women is utterly shot, because I genuinely do believe I'm not desirable...and the evidence to support that is present.

 

If you think you're undesirable, then you're undesirable. No one thinks someone who believes he himself is undesirable is desirable. You literally are undesirable because you say these things.

 

True, but I have good intuition for this sort of thing. The women I have dated in the past have all given clear signals for me to bounce off from. Besides, I don't intend nor desire to ask out every woman I find attractive / have something in common with.

 

It's easy to date people when you know they're interested in you. But if there aren't any for you now, you have to do the legwork yourself. You can't do that with your bad attitude, you don't meet the first requirement yet.

 

Honestly, if my value in the eyes of women is to simply be the guy they settle for / have children with, then screw them. I ain't being used like that...I have more value than that.

 

Sorry again about your feelings, but the market is always right. Your value to someone else isn't determined by you, it's determined by them. Do you ever watch Shark Tank? People always give ridiculously high valuations for their own businesses and then get torn to shreds. They aren't paying for something they don't want that much. Things are worth what other people are willing to pay or do for them. Are you surprised by this? Didn't you just say you were undesirable? Why would a woman want a man who insists he's undesirable and that women don't like him? Again, it's self-fulfilling. If you think you are, then you are. The world won't give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm sorry.

[bene]

Honestly, if my value in the eyes of women is to simply be the guy they settle for / have children with, then screw them. I ain't being used like that...I have more value than that.

 

I am somewhat older than you and I understand that you are in the point in your life where you are looking for carefree and fun dating experiences, but the expression "simply to have children with" strikes me as odd. It is one of the biggest decisions in people's lives with whom to start a family and have children, so I wouldn't dismiss it like this, as if settling down was something lowly and second rate.

 

If you are just looking to get laid then you might be underestimating the effort that other men put into meeting women. I'm sure all "Chads" get tons of rejections, they just don't care - it is a numbers game as others have already told.

[SwordofFlame]

I'm going to guess that you're giving off too much feminine energy so to speak. Perhaps in the way that you carry yourself, your mannerisms, your hobbies and interests, the fact that most of your friends are women, you even admitted that women see you more as a girlfriend than a romantic prospect.

[Yosemite]

No, I was not expecting her to ask me out etc. However, I do know the difference between a woman who is comfortable in your company and considers you a friend, and one that is attracted to you; it's hard to put into words, but I know it when I see it. I can assure you with this particular woman it was the former, I was simply the most approachable / easiest person to converse with. Not to mention this scenario has played out many times over the course of my time at university and all with women who consider me as a friend.

 

We can’t trust your judgement on this because you can’t get dates. (Not trying to sound mean.) If an active dating life is as important to you as you claim it is, you’ll open your mind to the possibility that you might be incorrect about a few things. No one’s right 100% of the time. Open your mind to try new things and take the advice that’s being offered to you. It doesn’t hurt anything to ask more women out. Maybe you just might be surprised at the results.

 

Tell me; how would you feel in my situation, knowing you've pulled out all the stops to better yourself and your chances and still come up short? Even when I go out looking my best, smelling my best, with a smile and in a good mood, it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference, and yet apparently it should be noticeable like night and day.

 

Quitting and whining isn’t the answer. Yes, it’s tough, but it’s tough for everyone. You seem like you want some kind of prize for putting in the most basic effort. Looking your best and smelling your best? Smiling? Come on OP, that’s the bare minimum of what you need to do. Next you’re going to tell us, even when I brush my teeth, it doesn’t make the slightest difference. (I’m teasing you a bit to make my point.)

 

You say, how am I supposed to react when I don’t get the results I want? You’re supposed to do something different than what’s not working. You’re supposed to have an open mind and try the advice that you’re given.

 

Give it a try OP, you have nothing to lose.

[LightWave93]

And sorry to sound like a jerk, but your feelings are irrelevant and attempts to garner any type of sympathy from people or from some karmic force only worsen your situation. It's not like if you reach some certain threshold of misfortune that a girlfriend will be granted to you in an act of contrition. Everyone knows you're having a hard time and is trying to help. Saying "how would you feel?" just makes you look worse. I've said it a bunch -- you need to drop this whole attitude. If you say anything close to this to anyone in real life, game over.

 

I'm not trying to garner any sympathy. Far from it. Nor do I feel entitled to anything.

 

If you think you're undesirable, then you're undesirable. No one thinks someone who believes he himself is undesirable is desirable. You literally are undesirable because you say these things.

 

I really find it difficult to believe that repeating the mantra "I am desirable" in my head is in any way going to improve my chances. Not that I haven't tried already.

 

I am somewhat older than you and I understand that you are in the point in your life where you are looking for carefree and fun dating experiences, but the expression "simply to have children with" strikes me as odd. It is one of the biggest decisions in people's lives with whom to start a family and have children, so I wouldn't dismiss it like this, as if settling down was something lowly and second rate.

 

If you are just looking to get laid then you might be underestimating the effort that other men put into meeting women. I'm sure all "Chads" get tons of rejections, they just don't care - it is a numbers game as others have already told.

 

I'm not some secondhand man who's only value in life is to provide children and security, because all the "hot, exciting" guys are taken.

 

I ended things with my last ex because she didn't feel "excitement" with me. That, to her, was chasing after men who wanted nothing to do with her. I was told I was a great guy, sexy, comfortable to be around, supportive, and we did some pretty cool stuff for the short period we were together, but it wasn't enough. She text me yesterday saying she felt like ****, and I ignored her. I'm not waiting around for women to suddenly realise I'm actually a catch; I highly doubt I will date anyone once I reach 25+, if I'm honest, because I'm not being settled with.

 

I'm going to guess that you're giving off too much feminine energy so to speak. Perhaps in the way that you carry yourself, your mannerisms, your hobbies and interests, the fact that most of your friends are women, you even admitted that women see you more as a girlfriend than a romantic prospect.

 

I've never been macho but I'm also not effeminate. I did a personality test the other day for a training course and it turns out I'm very emotionally driven, which makes sense knowing my character; I'm very emphatic, and perhaps that comes across as too "soft" on occasion. But if we're going to roll with the whole "Macho vs Feminine, Alpha vs Beta" sort of thing, then I can assure you I'm a good mix. I don't let anyone trample all over me, I hold my own opinions, I work hard for what I want (and, outside of this particularly subject, don't back down).

 

It's also worth noting that 90% of my female friends I would never date. They are simply that, friends. I've had one or two crush on me in the past but they were usually in vulnerable positions (eg. Rebound). The rest I've never flirted with etc because I'm not interested, hence the friend-zone.

 

Also, I have depression. It's hard to be happy-go-lucky 100% of the time and meds / therapy hasn't worked. But don't give me **** about how it's my mental health that's at fault, as I know people worse off who get laid / partners.

 

Quitting and whining isn’t the answer. Yes, it’s tough, but it’s tough for everyone. You seem like you want some kind of prize for putting in the most basic effort. Looking your best and smelling your best? Smiling? Come on OP, that’s the bare minimum of what you need to do. Next you’re going to tell us, even when I brush my teeth, it doesn’t make the slightest difference. (I’m teasing you a bit to make my point.)

 

Not taking offence, but you've certainly read too much into that comment. Sorry if it were misleading. I was more referring to the fact that I do have the basics nailed down; they were the first things I were asked when I first started talking about this three years ago.

 

Give it a try OP, you have nothing to lose.

 

I've got to meet women I want to date first, and they've got to be willing to give me a chance. The first I'm not having much luck with (OLD sucks, lol) and the few I have tried to date, didn't want to.

Edited October 8, 2017 by LightWave93

[Miss Spider]

Op, wish I could help. I just got to say, and I don't mean this to be mean, but when the pictures of you I thought 'he's a really physically attractive guy, dayum" I couldn't understand what the issue is. Then, I am reading your responses and it is pretty clear you still have blatant insecurities which can make you seem a lot less attractive. I understand having them because I dealt with being bullied too and have some myself, but the 'I give up. no one wants me' frame of mind is just a huge turn off to women. And of course you're being more candid here than you are around women, but I agree with the other poster that I can almost guarantee it bleeds through in subtle or not-so-subtle ways in your conversations/body language around women. They can probably smell it from a mile away. I think the best step is the counseling thing. Maybe they can help you get to the bottom of stuff. Bullying and the social anxiety that stems from it is a really huge ratty mess to unravel. It does a number on us. Sorry this is happening and wish you the best of luck!

Edited October 8, 2017 by Cookiesandough

[normal person]

I'm not trying to garner any sympathy. Far from it. Nor do I feel entitled to anything.

 

Hm.

 

I believe I'm "entitled" to have fun and have these experiences just as much as anyone else.

 

From your other thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/search/606358-i-m-still-unfortunate-3.html Yes. You think you're entitled, you just want to appear like you don't, aka "nice" guy behavior. The world doesn't owe you anything. I'm sorry. It doesn't. Complaining will not do anything besides make you look childish. No one on this Earth is entitled to anything. There are people without food, water, a roof over their heads, etc. If there was any sort of authority that would indulge our basic needs as humans, surely these people would already be taken care of long before you. But they haven't been. The world isn't a fairy tale. It's harsh and unfair, and the sooner you realize that, the easier this will be for you. You. aren't. owed. anything.

 

I really find it difficult to believe that repeating the mantra "I am desirable" in my head is in any way going to improve my chances. Not that I haven't tried already.

 

Conversely, asking people if you're doing anything wrong, not talking to an attractive woman because you're too scared, being unsure, and constantly talking about how undesirable you are hasn't done you any favors either. I'm not saying "just repeat this mantra and your dreams will come true," I'm saying you have to act as if you believe it. Would a confident, desirable person ask someone else if they're doing something wrong? Would a confident, desirable person be scared to talk to someone else? No, and no. It doesn't take until you act on it. Even if you don't believe it yourself, if other people believe it, that's probably enough. Then, suddenly, it manifests and becomes true. It's confidence or perceived confidence.

 

I'm not some secondhand man who's only value in life is to provide children and security, because all the "hot, exciting" guys are taken.

 

If someone wants to marry you, you aren't "secondhand." You're literally the most important person to them. Marriage is the first round of the draft. Dating before you get married is doing the scouting report and the combine. Sorry they don't like you now, but as I said, the world doesn't owe you anything. The market is always right. You just sound bitter. It's unattractive.

 

I'm not waiting around for women to suddenly realise I'm actually a catch; I highly doubt I will date anyone once I reach 25+, if I'm honest, because I'm not being settled with.

 

It's that self-fulfilling thing again. You aren't a catch if you think you're undesirable and act like it. Also, women's sexual market value is frontloaded between ages 18-27 ish. Men hit their prime in their late 20s to mid 30s. Maybe women don't want much to do with you now because you're 24 (6 years older than them), and still in school. Most guys your age are lapping you. Before you're really considered a "catch" to any serious woman, you've got to first graduate, get a decent job, and lose your whole self-defeatist attitude.

 

I've never been macho but I'm also not effeminate. I did a personality test the other day for a training course and it turns out I'm very emotionally driven, which makes sense knowing my character; I'm very emphatic, and perhaps that comes across as too "soft" on occasion. But if we're going to roll with the whole "Macho vs Feminine, Alpha vs Beta" sort of thing, then I can assure you I'm a good mix. I don't let anyone trample all over me, I hold my own opinions, I work hard for what I want (and, outside of this particularly subject, don't back down).

 

Being "emotionally driven" is about as effeminate as you can get. It's probably not something you can change, so you'll have to work with it. All this downtrodden "woe is me, how do you think it feels, am I doing anything wrong" stuff is the manifestation of this. I know I'll get some crap for here for the "toxic masculinity" thing, but if I were you, I'd just bury it, fight through the pain, and do what I needed to do. Not express my feelings -- it doesn't do much good. If I were you, I'd make conscious efforts not to trade on how things "feel" but rather how practical they are. Feelings are irrelevant. Pragmatism, regardless of how you feel about things, usually wins out in the end, even if the road there is more painful.

 

I've got to meet women I want to date first, and they've got to be willing to give me a chance. The first I'm not having much luck with (OLD sucks, lol) and the few I have tried to date, didn't want to.

 

Don't wait for them to give you a chance. Give them a chance. Stop assuming they have the power to grant you their time and attention and start assuming you have the power to grant them yours. An attitude adjustment that will work wonders for you. If you meet someone you like, don't be overly impressed or interested. Just be the appealing person you say you are underneath all the downtrodden stuff and if they're into you, then you have the leverage. But you may lose it, and likely her interest, as soon you act fearful, deferential, or that you care too much about her opinions of you.

[LightWave93]

Op, wish I could help. I just got to say, and I don't mean this to be mean, but when the pictures of you I thought 'he's a really physically attractive guy, dayum" I couldn't understand what the issue is.

 

Clearly I'm not, otherwise I would get noticed / matches on occasion.

 

Sorry this is happening and wish you the best of luck!

 

Thanks. You've been helpful.

 

 

From your other thread: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/search/606358-i-m-still-unfortunate-3.html Yes. You think you're entitled, you just want to appear like you don't, aka "nice" guy behavior. The world doesn't owe you anything. I'm sorry. It doesn't. Complaining will not do anything besides make you look childish. No one on this Earth is entitled to anything. There are people without food, water, a roof over their heads, etc. If there was any sort of authority that would indulge our basic needs as humans, surely these people would already be taken care of long before you. But they haven't been. The world isn't a fairy tale. It's harsh and unfair, and the sooner you realize that, the easier this will be for you. You. aren't. owed. anything.

 

Considering there are quotations over that wording I think it's pretty clear that I wasn't sure of the correct vocabulary to use. Believe it or not, I don't feel entitled, and you're right, the world doesn't owe me anything. What I mean to say is that if I put effort into myself and improving, it would be nice to see some results externally (better social / dating life, as an example). There have been, fortunately, in recent weeks.

 

Conversely, asking people if you're doing anything wrong, not talking to an attractive woman because you're too scared, being unsure, and constantly talking about how undesirable you are hasn't done you any favors either. I'm not saying "just repeat this mantra and your dreams will come true," I'm saying you have to act as if you believe it. Would a confident, desirable person ask someone else if they're doing something wrong? Would a confident, desirable person be scared to talk to someone else? No, and no. It doesn't take until you act on it. Even if you don't believe it yourself, if other people believe it, that's probably enough. Then, suddenly, it manifests and becomes true. It's confidence or perceived confidence.

 

I don't see anything wrong with collecting feedback; it's good to get an outsiders opinion, I feel, hence why I'm on here, and I think it demonstrates confidence that I'm willing to be vulnerable to criticism. At the end of the day, these people know me better than yourself and if I was as miserable and unconfident as you make me out to be, I would have been told by now. NOT that there is no room for improvement. There certainly is. There always is.

 

'n yes, I'm going to be a bit hesitant after having no luck with women to approach a very attractive women outside of my perceived league in an environment I am unfamiliar with. At least I am trying to work through it and DO make efforts in situations I am more comfortable.

 

inb4 "Get out of your comfort zone". In time.

 

If someone wants to marry you, you aren't "secondhand." You're literally the most important person to them. Marriage is the first round of the draft. Dating before you get married is doing the scouting report and the combine. Sorry they don't like you now, but as I said, the world doesn't owe you anything. The market is always right. You just sound bitter. It's unattractive.

 

I sound bitter because I know I'm better than to be settled for? Give me a break!

 

It's that self-fulfilling thing again. You aren't a catch if you think you're undesirable and act like it. Also, women's sexual market value is frontloaded between ages 18-27 ish. Men hit their prime in their late 20s to mid 30s. Maybe women don't want much to do with you now because you're 24 (6 years older than them), and still in school. Most guys your age are lapping you. Before you're really considered a "catch" to any serious woman, you've got to first graduate, get a decent job, and lose your whole self-defeatist attitude.

 

I don't fecking act like it though; I go out and have fun and talk to people and make friends. I was literally told the other day by a new group of girls I am awesome to be around; that's not the sort of thing people say randomly unless they mean it.

 

I have never heard of my age for being a problem. The few dates I have had didn't see it as an issue, and I've heard many times that older men are preferable.

 

Being "emotionally driven" is about as effeminate as you can get. It's probably not something you can change, so you'll have to work with it. All this downtrodden "woe is me, how do you think it feels, am I doing anything wrong" stuff is the manifestation of this. I know I'll get some crap for here for the "toxic masculinity" thing, but if I were you, I'd just bury it, fight through the pain, and do what I needed to do. Not express my feelings -- it doesn't do much good. If I were you, I'd make conscious efforts not to trade on how things "feel" but rather how practical they are. Feelings are irrelevant. Pragmatism, regardless of how you feel about things, usually wins out in the end, even if the road there is more painful.

 

I'm actually half and half, emotionally and logically driven. It causes conflict.

 

Don't wait for them to give you a chance. Give them a chance. Stop assuming they have the power to grant you their time and attention and start assuming you have the power to grant them yours. An attitude adjustment that will work wonders for you. If you meet someone you like, don't be overly impressed or interested. Just be the appealing person you say you are underneath all the downtrodden stuff and if they're into you, then you have the leverage. But you may lose it, and likely her interest, as soon you act fearful, deferential, or that you care too much about her opinions of you.

 

Didn't I literally just say I ask women out on dates? That is giving them a chance. It is then their chance to say Yes or No.

Edited October 8, 2017 by LightWave93

[SwordofFlame]

OP, your posts are filled with contradictions. I think the problem is that while you may be doing the things people are telling you to do, you're not doing them well enough or often enough, the results speak for themselves. Take socializing and flirting for example. You don't have many quality friends and the ones you do have, can't help you get a date. I suspect that despite your tremendous desire to have some success with dating, you just don't seem to fit in or connect well with the people around you right now. The key words being right now. Once you finish school, move elsewhere and make new friends, you may have success. It's folly to think that just because you're not having any luck in industry right now means you're doomed forever.

[normal person]

Considering there are quotations over that wording I think it's pretty clear that I wasn't sure of the correct vocabulary to use. Believe it or not, I don't feel entitled, and you're right, the world doesn't owe me anything. What I mean to say is that if I put effort into myself and improving, it would be nice to see some results externally (better social / dating life, as an example). There have been, fortunately, in recent weeks.

 

Working for something doesn't automatically get you the thing you want. Expecting it because you worked for it is still entitlement. You just "feel" like you should have it. That's not how the world operates. You don't pass the test just because you studied for it. You have to actually know the answers.

 

I don't see anything wrong with collecting feedback; it's good to get an outsiders opinion, I feel, hence why I'm on here, and I think it demonstrates confidence that I'm willing to be vulnerable to criticism.

 

What you're doing is broadcasting the fact that you have a strong desire for women, can't get them, and don't know how to get them despite being 6 years older than everyone. It's about as unappealing as it gets. Word will get around and you'll look desperate and like you don't know what you're doing. That's the opposite of confident and collected.

 

At the end of the day, these people know me better than yourself and if I was as miserable and unconfident as you make me out to be, I would have been told by now.

 

And if you were as attractive, great, appealing, and as much of a catch as you claim to be, you wouldn't be here wondering why no women want you. Your friends have nothing to gain by saying "you're not confident and it's a huge turn off," or they might not know how to articulate it, or even know what the problem is because they're 19 years old and clueless.

 

'n yes, I'm going to be a bit hesitant after having no luck with women to approach a very attractive women outside of my perceived league in an environment I am unfamiliar with. At least I am trying to work through it and DO make efforts in situations I am more comfortable.

 

inb4 "Get out of your comfort zone". In time.

 

Hesitancy and uncertainty are fear. Fear is the opposite of confidence. Again, that's your problem.

 

I sound bitter because I know I'm better than to be settled for? Give me a break!

 

You're the only one talking about being "settled for." People try to get married to people they love. I'm not sure where this "settled for" thought came from.

 

I don't fecking act like it though; I go out and have fun and talk to people and make friends.

 

You literally asked someone if you're doing something wrong. You fear talking to a certain woman. You are unsure and held back. You don't have answers to your problems, you can't take the initiative to try and solve them yourself, and you're afraid of them. So yes, you do act like it. You just don't realize it.

 

I was literally told the other day by a new group of girls I am awesome to be around; that's not the sort of thing people say randomly unless they mean it.

 

So is problem solved, then? It doesn't mean much unless they think you're sexually viable. They could say the same thing to a gay guy or a puppy. Being "awesome to be around" is nice, but it doesn't necessarily solve your conundrum.

 

I have never heard of my age for being a problem. The few dates I have had didn't see it as an issue, and I've heard many times that older men are preferable.

 

No one has anything to gain by hurting your feelings and saying "your age is a problem." There's nothing advantageous about still being in school and hitting on girls 6 years younger than you. If a woman likes an older man, it's usually because he's composed, got his life together, is successful, knows what he's doing, is more distinguished, and not a boy. Not just because the number is higher. You aren't composed, you're still in school, you don't know what you're doing with women. That'd be a tough spot if you were their age, being even older and having those problems makes it look worse.

 

Have you ever thought about just tricking yourself into being more confident by the mere fact that you're so much older? It seems kind of odd to me that you're 24 and too scared to talk to a 19 year old you think is out of your league, or asking other 19 year olds for advice. You have age and life experience. Do these people, on any level, look up to you? If so, take that and run with it. Every time you express uncertainty about yourself or ask someone (especially if they're younger than you) for advice, you sink lower. Start ascending. You know better than people that age. You can be "the respectable, confident one" pretty easy if you just get out of your own head.

 

Didn't I literally just say I ask women out on dates? That is giving them a chance. It is then their chance to say Yes or No.

 

That's not what I suggested. Short answer, no. If you're asking someone out, you give them the ability to decide your fate because you gave them the power to determine whether or not you were worth their time. The person being asked has the leverage, not the person asking. If you want a loan from the bank, they have the power to determine your fate because they have the money you want. I suggested you flip the script and learn how to be the bank, but that was probably misguided because you're still a ways away from being able to do that.

[staggerlee71]

wow, what a read.

 

OP, its amazing to me that you are so unware of how you are perceived. there is a delicate balance between how you are perceived, how you perceive yourself, and how much you care.

 

Your talking out of both sides of your mouth which leads me to believe that you come across that way.

 

my interpretation of what you write is you actually have no idea how to read signals and social cues. I would guess your getting them but totally missing them because your too self involved in what they should look like.

 

You are defending yourself because the straight advice you getting is really to go out, have a good time and to hell with the women. So follow that advice. dude, stop worrying or looking for a green light. If you don't know what league your in, I suggest going out with a girl who you feel is not in your league and go from there. By the sound of it, I'm not sure you could relax enough on a date any way.

 

your 24, you have plenty of time to meet a great girl. But great girls only come when a man has his vibe together, is sure, knows what he wants, and does his best to get it. none of which you project here.

 

I'm middle aged. One thing if learned is women are attracted the aforementioned qualities, for the long haul. not looks, not money and not aholes. you don't have to be perfect, and balls to the wall confident, you need to show that in the moment, you are sure, sure that what is happening is working for you, for you not her.

 

How in the hell could you possible know a women is settling for you if you haven't dated her over a period of time. Just the fact that you say that screams insecurity and believe me, women can read that. and frankly, maybe you jump into a perceived second best role to see if in fact its true, it might help you learn what you want, how to get it and gain some confidence.

 

ive been dumped, ive dumped, ive been led on, ive led on but have Ive never left my self perception and value up to someone else. you keep on keeping on, live your life strong, and take it as it comes

 

drop the mike!!

[LightWave93]

OP, your posts are filled with contradictions. I think the problem is that while you may be doing the things people are telling you to do, you're not doing them well enough or often enough, the results speak for themselves. Take socializing and flirting for example. You don't have many quality friends and the ones you do have, can't help you get a date. I suspect that despite your tremendous desire to have some success with dating, you just don't seem to fit in or connect well with the people around you right now. The key words being right now. Once you finish school, move elsewhere and make new friends, you may have success. It's folly to think that just because you're not having any luck in industry right now means you're doomed forever.

 

Certainly improvements to be made, but I'm not sure where to start. I'm already attending social events to meet new people, trying (tried?) online dating, am working out, am doing my studies, am doing other stuff to improve myself. What else can I possibly do?

 

Quality friends I do have, but they tend to be introverted or caught up with their own lives. The new friends I've made recently seem cool enough so maybe I'll have better fortune with them. I've never been able to get with the popular crowd, and probably wouldn't want to anyway.

 

If you want a loan from the bank, they have the power to determine your fate because they have the money you want. I suggested you flip the script and learn how to be the bank, but that was probably misguided because you're still a ways away from being able to do that.

 

Honestly, normal person, whilst I certainly appreciate the support you've provided the last couple of years, I am getting tired of speaking to you (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual ).

 

You're not even willing to acknowledge any positives about me, instead trying to paint me out as incompetent. You take what I say out of context or twist it to meet your own ends. Whatever I do in your eyes is wrong, whatever people who know me say about me is wrong. It's frustrating to talk to you because you seem intent on talking negative about me.

 

I will certainly take on what you have said, especially about confidence (because yes, I do need more), but I'm not really interested in chatting to you anymore. I might just leave this thread to die, to be honest.

 

As a side note, I acknowledge I'm being touchy. There have also been a good number of people in my life who have hurt me greatly, and I particularly get touchy with misinformed statements of my character (my first partner accusing me falsely of abuse, for example), and since this is a public forum I feel the need to defend myself. Nothing personal, it's my issue.

 

my interpretation of what you write is you actually have no idea how to read signals and social cues. I would guess your getting them but totally missing them because your too self involved in what they should look like.

 

Social interaction has never been my strong point due to the aforementioned social anxiety I suffered from for the longest of time. However, I'd like to think I'm come along way. May I ask, what social cues / signals do you believe I'm missing?

 

You are defending yourself because the straight advice you getting is really to go out, have a good time and to hell with the women. So follow that advice. dude, stop worrying or looking for a green light. If you don't know what league your in, I suggest going out with a girl who you feel is not in your league and go from there. By the sound of it, I'm not sure you could relax enough on a date any way.

 

I can't get a date, so dating a girl who is not in my league (I'm assuming you mean the other way) isn't an option. Furthermore I can't use women for practice, I have to have a genunie interest.

 

How in the hell could you possible know a women is settling for you if you haven't dated her over a period of time. Just the fact that you say that screams insecurity and believe me, women can read that. and frankly, maybe you jump into a perceived second best role to see if in fact its true, it might help you learn what you want, how to get it and gain some confidence.

 

The original poster of that particular information made the suggestion that my value is only present with older women who are essentially done fooling around with men who aren't worth their time. It is not pleasant essentially being told I am second best and women will find value in me later.

[staggerlee71]

I don't know you, how you behave, what you do, and where you go.

 

none of us here on LS do. we are all responding to what your writing, how you write it, which formulates tone and perception.

 

I'm curious, it seems your spending your time here defending what is being suggested. Can you tell us if you've read anything that is helpful, perhaps enlightening, maybe is a perspective you havnt considered?

 

There are certain themes that come through on this thread: insecurity, lack of confidence, self esteem to name a few.

 

Are you at all interested in why that is the response your getting. Consider for a moment that you are all those things, have you? if your interested in growth and suggestion, you need to consider what responses your getting, and asking questions to elaborate before defend. its thorough and open.

[LightWave93]

Can you tell us if you've read anything that is helpful, perhaps enlightening, maybe is a perspective you havnt considered?

 

Everything that has been posted has been helpful, to some degree or another.

 

There are certain themes that come through on this thread: insecurity, lack of confidence, self esteem to name a few.

 

Look, I really don't know how else to say this. I'm an alright guy. I have my issues, like everyone does, but I also have strengths which I play to. I do go out and socialise (inc with women), I do make efforts to improve myself, I do try and change my mindset, "fake it till I make it" etc. I have a life full of varied interests and hobbies, pursue my passions, am kind to others etc. I am certainly not the most confident person in the world, but I'm not the worst either. I'm not special, I'm human, and I endeavour to be the best I can possibly.

 

I am NOT somebody who doesn't have fun, that doesn't have social connections, someone who is boring or unable to hold a conversation, someone who backs down from adversity or clamours to other people's expectations.

 

Are you at all interested in why that is the response your getting. Consider for a moment that you are all those things, have you? if your interested in growth and suggestion, you need to consider what responses your getting, and asking questions to elaborate before defend. its thorough and open.

 

Very interested. I check back regularly to read them. I simply get frustrated when I say one thing and then it gets turned around into a negative.

 

Okay then, here's a question.

 

Considering all that I have done, what else can I do to improve my confidence / self-esteem? Because whatever I have tried, which is conventional wisdom, clearly hasn't brought me up to a level that you guys expect from me.

[normal person]

You're not even willing to acknowledge any positives about me, instead trying to paint me out as incompetent. You take what I say out of context or twist it to meet your own ends.

 

I take what I read and go with it. I consider things you might not have. I'm not replying just to waste my time to prove a point, I'm trying to give you actionable advice. It might not be what you want to hear, but it's the best I can give and I think I'm qualified to give it. I know you're a nice, respectable guy who cares for other people. That's pretty much understood. But that's not really the point of the thread, is it? If you don't want the advice without an accompanied pat on the back for trying and being nice, we're just wasting our time here. If you want your problems solved, I'm happy to help -- I'm not saying it's going to be particularly comfortable, as most things worth doing aren't -- but it's the best way I can think of. Feel free to disagree.

 

Whatever I do in your eyes is wrong, whatever people who know me say about me is wrong. It's frustrating to talk to you because you seem intent on talking negative about me.

 

You're here because everything you've done hasn't worked. Is it my fault for pointing out why and how and suggesting solutions? I suggested you act like you have answers and not ask your friends what you're doing wrong because it makes you look unsure and desperate. It'll make you seem more confident, women like confidence, and you want women. I think that's great advice. If that upsets you, well... ok(?). You can feel free to disagree or not take my advice.

 

I will certainly take on what you have said, especially about confidence (because yes, I do need more), but I'm not really interested in chatting to you anymore. I might just leave this thread to die, to be honest.

 

Best of luck.