God's Sovereignty or Human Free Will?

[Soccer1986]

I am a Calvinist universalist. I believe God saved everyone through the work of Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection. Everyone goes to heaven in my view and there is no hell.

 

I also believe God is sovereign over our daily lives. This part I can only speak from personal experiences of supernatural encounters that are hard to ignore. I just believe God has my days planned out. I believe it so much so that I stopped asking women out for dates many years ago. Do I feel at peace about my beliefs and my decision to be passive in the dating department of my life? Absolutely. I figure if God's will is for me to have a wife then it's going to happen whether I ask women out or not. God could put it on a woman's heart to ask me out. That's just one of various means God could use to carry out His plan for my love life. Otherwise it may be God's will for me to stay single for life and quite frankly if I end up dying alone then I deserve it after looking back over the sins I've committed in the past. Dying alone would only be a small taste of the punishment I deserve.

 

Anyway what's your vote? Where do you stand on this view of God's sovereignty vs. free will? Even if it appears we have free will how do we really know we're not influenced by The Lord to make the choices we make? God can work through our wills.

[basil67]

I'm an athiest. For me, life is a combination of free will and chance.

[OpenBook]

I have no idea. That information is above my pay grade. I'm just asking God to guide my steps. So far so good!

[umirano]

I believe neither in free will nor in god. The former is an evolved internal illusion and the latter is an illusion that society as a whole evolved into believing (both must have beneficial effects, but I can't see any evidence).

[basil67]

I believe neither in free will nor in god. The former is an evolved internal illusion and the latter is an illusion that society as a whole evolved into believing (both must have beneficial effects, but I can't see any evidence).

 

You've piqued my interest Umirano. While there are things which happen to us which we have no control over, isn't the act of us saying Yes or No to an option free will? Or have I missed your point?

[umirano]

While there are things which happen to us which we have no control over, isn't the act of us saying Yes or No to an option free will?

 

No it isn't, because we have no choice to alter our brain state, which presents us with the options,the decision, and the illusion that we had a say in it. But if you think about it carefully, everything that determines our brain state (genetics, physiology, environment) is outside of our control.

[basil67]

No it isn't, because we have no choice to alter our brain state, which presents us with the options,the decision, and the illusion that we had a say in it. But if you think about it carefully, everything that determines our brain state (genetics, physiology, environment) is outside of our control.

 

Interesting theory. And yes, I would make a great many different choices if I were a different person due to those determining factors.

[umirano]

Where would the idea to, say, buy tea instead of coffee, come from, if not from our brain? Do we freely chose these thoughts? I can't say that I believe we do. If you believe in free will you are actually saying that there is some non-physical entity that can generate ideas and transfer them into the physical world, into your brain, which can then make your body act them out. If you say there is no such non-physical entity then all ideas must come from the brain itself, and how would you argue that our free will exists in a brain that is governed by chemistry and physics?

[Soccer1986]

People with brain tumors don't have complete freedom to choose. That much is certain.

[Justanaverageguy]

Where would the idea to, say, buy tea instead of coffee, come from, if not from our brain? Do we freely chose these thoughts? I can't say that I believe we do. If you believe in free will you are actually saying that there is some non-physical entity that can generate ideas and transfer them into the physical world, into your brain, which can then make your body act them out. If you say there is no such non-physical entity then all ideas must come from the brain itself, and how would you argue that our free will exists in a brain that is governed by chemistry and physics?

 

So the problem I see with the argument about free will is people often try to frame it in absolute terms. They want to make it an "either\or" instead of an "and". Either you have absolute free will and nothing is predetermined - or you have no free will at all and everything is already decided - pure determinism. Your looking to make it exclusively one or the other when to me its quite obvious its a combination of both.

 

The reality is consciousness as we understand it and also experience it does give us choice and the ability to introspect and adjust our own thinking patterns from a top down level. This is what we classify as reaching a state of being self aware. Its what makes human consciousness so different and more advanced when compared to say animals.

 

Neuroscience also shows how our overall consciousness - the sense of self -does not come from a specific part of the brain but rather it emerges from the totality of all systems in the brain working together to create a coherent unified energetic system.

The top level consciousness is created by the lower level subsystems and receives information from them - thoughts, memories etc- but that top level conscious layer still has the ability to choose - and also to actively work to modify the lower levels of thinking to modify the systems that create it and the information that is being passed up to it.

 

I can consciously choose to modify my own thinking patterns - which will in tern modify the ways I feel and behave. This goes into the neuroscience and the understanding of neuralplasticity and is what the entire field of psychology and also meditation is primarily dedicated to. Many people operate on "default settings" with out spending a lot of time "thinking about what they are thinking about" until something goes wrong and they start to encounter negative circumstances. Then they work to correct it.

 

We understand that our mind is essentially a bi-directional feedback loop. We are influenced by our past - our genetics - what is happening to us and around us - but we still have the ability to make conscious choices within the spectrum of options available based on that. The choices we make will then dictate the circumstances we encounter and the options available to us in the future. We do not have absolute freedom - but neither is everything predetermined. It's a little bit of both.

 

I think the same applies to god ... if you think about your actions as having certain energetic consequences - Karma. God is actively shaping how those consequences -that Karma comes to bare upon you. Ideally to benefit you and mold your consciousness in a positive way. Because even punishment is a benefit if applied correctly. If we generate too much negative Karma though ..... there is only so much that can be done to make it a positive experience - this is where grace - and the concept of say Jesus sacrifice comes in to remove the negative burden of some of our mistakes.

 

I have always thought this picture by MC Escher was one of the most profound when describing the relationship both between free will and determinism and also free will and God in governing how our life is drawn. Each acts like a hand which is simultaneously drawing the other one to create the overall picture.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawing_Hands

Edited October 16, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Justanaverageguy]

I also believe God is sovereign over our daily lives. This part I can only speak from personal experiences of supernatural encounters that are hard to ignore. I just believe God has my days planned out. I believe it so much so that I stopped asking women out for dates many years ago. Do I feel at peace about my beliefs and my decision to be passive in the dating department of my life? Absolutely. I figure if God's will is for me to have a wife then it's going to happen whether I ask women out or not. God could put it on a woman's heart to ask me out. That's just one of various means God could use to carry out His plan for my love life. Otherwise it may be God's will for me to stay single for life and quite frankly if I end up dying alone then I deserve it after looking back over the sins I've committed in the past. Dying alone would only be a small taste of the punishment I deserve.

 

In specific response to this ^^^. It kind of sounds like you are expecting a free ride I don't have to do anything - God will do it for me. To this I would simply say - God helps those who help themselves. He is not your servant who exists to do your bidding. Rather it is the other way around you are his servant and he rewards those who serve him well.

 

I don't think that inaction in dating is specifically all that matters. Rather it is the overall quality of all of your actions - what you are putting out in the world. How you are contributing - how you are interacting with other people. I think a positive way to be passive in dating would be - I'm going to contribute as much as I can in other ways and trust that in doing so I will be lead to a romantic relationship in the process.

 

I would warn against however taking a completely hands off approach - like I don't have to do anything at all and it will just happen. For this type of thinking I would reference the Parable of the Three Servants Matthew 25:14-30. I think it explains better then I can how that type of "inaction" is viewed.

Edited October 16, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Soccer1986]

In specific response to this ^^^. It kind of sounds like you are expecting a free ride I don't have to do anything - God will do it for me. To this I would simply say - God helps those who help themselves. He is not your servant who exists to do your bidding. Rather it is the other way around you are his servant and he rewards those who serve him well.

 

I don't think that inaction in dating is specifically all that matters. Rather it is the overall quality of all of your actions - what you are putting out in the world. How you are contributing - how you are interacting with other people. I think a positive way to be passive in dating would be - I'm going to contribute as much as I can in other ways and trust that in doing so I will be lead to a romantic relationship in the process.

 

I would warn against however taking a completely hands off approach - like I don't have to do anything at all and it will just happen. For this type of thinking I would reference the Parable of the Three Servants Matthew 25:14-30. I think it explains better then I can how that type of "inaction" is viewed.

 

 

My point is even if I work hard to contribute to the world I can still say no to opportunities for a relationship that result from contributions just because I'm trying to prove that I'm not looking to open up any doors. Whatever dating opportunity comes my way does not mean I have to take it. I can still wait for God to force things to happen even if a woman asks me out for coffee and I say no.

[Justanaverageguy]

How exactly do you expect God to force things ? Are you waiting for a magical signal from the heavens, the hand of god to descend from the clouds and anoint a woman as your chosen bride in an explosion of light and fire

 

I'm joking of course but - I think he generally saves the mystical showmanship for when he really needs to make an impact. Normally he works in much subtler ways. I'm reminded of another parable now which is the Story of a drowning man who asks god to save him. Obviously your asking for something different but I think you'll understand the point of the story and how it relates.

 

A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help. Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you." The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me." So the rowboat went on.

 

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you." To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith." So the motorboat went on.

 

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith." So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

 

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

 

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

Edited October 16, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[BC1980]

No it isn't, because we have no choice to alter our brain state, which presents us with the options,the decision, and the illusion that we had a say in it. But if you think about it carefully, everything that determines our brain state (genetics, physiology, environment) is outside of our control.

 

I don't 100% agree with that. I'm not an expert in neuroscience by a long shot, but I've read a little about brain plasticity as it relates to addiction. It seems that it's possible to rewire your brain so to speak. Brain plasticity is also comes into play after a traumatic brain injury.

 

I guess the question is: how does free will play into all of that. I think you have to exert some free will rewire your brain. You have to be willing try new habits that rewire your brain. I don't think we are mindless robots, but I don't think we have complete free will all the time. I think it's an interesting combination of sorts.

[BC1980]

. Anyway what's your vote? Where do you stand on this view of God's sovereignty vs. free will? Even if it appears we have free will how do we really know we're not influenced by The Lord to make the choices we make? God can work through our wills.

 

The short answer is: I have no idea.

 

The long answer. I don't think that God interferes too much in our daily lives. I don't have proof either way, and my belief probably comes from that fact that I've mostly been a member of the Methodist Church, which comes down decidedly on the side of free will. To believe that God orchestrates everything means I have to believe he orchestrates bad things, and I don't want to believe that. That's a hard belief for me to stomach.

 

I also struggle with the idea of a personal God that I can pray to at any time. I think that affects my feelings on predestination.

[BC1980]

I am a Calvinist universalist. I believe God saved everyone through the work of Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection. Everyone goes to heaven in my view and there is no hell.

 

I would like to learn more about the Presbyterian Church. Does this mean you don't believe God chooses only certain people to get into heaven? I love the Puritans and just read a book on Anne Hutchinson that delved into Puritan beliefs on predestination, and I want to learn more.

[Soccer1986]

I would like to learn more about the Presbyterian Church. Does this mean you don't believe God chooses only certain people to get into heaven? I love the Puritans and just read a book on Anne Hutchinson that delved into Puritan beliefs on predestination, and I want to learn more.

 

I believe all humanity are God's elect for salvation. Yes God chooses. It's all according to the counsel of His will and everyone is included. It's not of those who work or who are willing but God willing to pour out mercy on all.

[Soccer1986]

I also believe it is part of God's sovereign plan for everyone to have different beliefs. Therefore if you believe in free will then God predestined you to have that belief and see the world the way you do. I don't believe we can see things a certain way until God wants us to see it. It's all for a higher purpose.

 

I say why not? If God exists then we don't belong to ourselves. We are subordinate to Him and He can do what He wants with us. We're just guests here on planet Earth. We had nothing to do with creation in the beginning. I wasn't there and I don't recall God ever consulting with me first before creating the solar system. Humans are just a tiny tiny fraction of the universe and therefore it's not all about us bending to our whims and desires.

 

So I have no problem with God overriding human will and hardening and softening hearts as He sees fit for different purposes. I would even go so far to say that God made me weak at this point of my life to show me that I'm really nothing without Him. Like the apostle Paul I rejoice in my weaknesses because those weaknesses will keep me dependent on The Lord.

 

The Lord's ways seem foolish to our world system. The world system says go to work on yourself and improve yourself. I have come to the conclusion that self improvement is a bunch of BS. People try through new years resolutions but most of the time it does not stick. 2 weeks later they fall bacj into old habits. It's nothing but arrogance. The weaknesses we have God put there on purpose for a reason.

 

God uses weak people all the time throughout history even in Old Testament stories. It's only through weakness that I learn about the grace of God. How can I learn grace and see my need for grace if I'm strong all the time? If I'm strong all the time then it won't take long for pride to set in and then I won't have compassion on others who struggle with addictions. I'd be tempted to point the finger and judge. If not for the grace of God I would be worse off than I am now. Free grace, sovereign grace, amazing grace.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Soccer1986

[Southern Sun]

I believe all humanity are God's elect for salvation. Yes God chooses. It's all according to the counsel of His will and everyone is included. It's not of those who work or who are willing but God willing to pour out mercy on all.

 

So...according to your beliefs, everybody goes to heaven?

 

Do we need to believe your beliefs to go to heaven?

 

I am truly curious. I've never heard this. The Bible does not say everyone goes to heaven.

 

I think the question of free will vs predetermination is only applicable for theists. Because the real question it is asking is: if everything we are doing is predetermined, then God already knows who goes to heaven and who doesn't. And the other sticky wicket is: how can we really have free will if God is all-knowing...wouldn't he technically KNOW what we are about to do next, thus nullifying our actual choice?

 

Some might say that Him just knowing what we will do doesn't mean it's not our free will. But I would argue otherwise. If our future is already set, then we only THINK we are choosing.

 

In general...IF there is a god...IF God does exist (I am currently having an existential crisis about this)...then I've always believed we ARE supposed to act. The entire book of James talks about proving our faith by actions. That may not specifically translate to your question, but I don't believe God wants us to sit back on our laurels and expect Him to handle everything.

 

As a practical suggestion, most women DO prefer the man to show a little initiative...we tend to find passivity a bit unattractive. So if you don't make any changes, you may have a self-fulfilling prophecy on your hands.

[Justanaverageguy]

So...according to your beliefs, everybody goes to heaven? Do we need to believe your beliefs to go to heaven? I am truly curious. I've never heard this. The Bible does not say everyone goes to heaven.

 

I agree. Especially as the O.P stated he is a Christian. I think I would struggle to find a single quote in the bible or any Christian text that supports this view. In fact pretty much the entire bible speaks to the exact opposite. EG: Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven"

 

If everything we are doing is predetermined, then God already knows who goes to heaven and who doesn't. And the other sticky wicket is: how can we really have free will if God is all-knowing...wouldn't he technically KNOW what we are about to do next, thus nullifying our actual choice?

 

Some might say that Him just knowing what we will do doesn't mean it's not our free will. But I would argue otherwise. If our future is already set, then we only THINK we are choosing.

 

I'm not sure if you are a father or work with Children but I think Parent \ Child is really the easiest analogy when looking at God relationship with our free will. They do refer to him as God the father A child - lets say 5-6 years old does have a degree of free will - but the father understands they haven't developed the ability to use it responsibly yet. So he watches over the child and he learns their nature and their habits. Through his observations he knows how the child will react under specific conditions. There isn't really anything supernatural about this ability - its simply watching their patterns of behaviour. If you grant God exists and has supernatural abilities then this is kind of ability is pretty basic. Nothing otherworldly about it.

 

The father then tries to teach the child how to use free will correctly and enhance their nature and understanding by giving them lessons then observing to see if the child understands and follow the lessons he provides. Early on a father is quite tolerant and forgiving when teaching. He won't serverly punish the child for making small mistakes. As they grow older and show they understand a specific lesson - if they then willfully disregard the lesson - they are punished. This is primarily for their own protection and well being. Restrictions such as grounding - or removal of rights are enforced to modify the child's behavior and teach them to use their free will in the right manner.

 

So does a child not have free will because a parent teaches and molds their behavior in a specific way ? Of course they still do to an extent - but parent tries to modify their nature - the way they consciously choose to use their free will so hopefully that free will is enhanced by the experiences and teachings from the parents. As we grow and become more able to use that free will responsibly - the parents reduce their active intervention and allow us to live our lives as we see fit.

 

This is how I see the relationship with God and our own free will. We are given free will and the ability to choose how to live - what a glorious opportunity. But if he sees a weakness emerging or us going down an unwise path - he may intervene or line up lessons to test us - knowing full well we will fail them and have to deal with the negative consequences. This is a corrective action and the bible says it's a good thing if this is happening to you. If you see children getting away with murder what does that usually indicate about the parental oversight and the care the parents have shown in their upbringing ?

 

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you. For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son. Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"

 

If you live in perfect accordance with the golden law .... then you are completely free to do what ever you wish within that framework. Make music, write, act, become and engineer - whatever. Indeed instead of punishment if you are able to align your will to work in conjunction with the law you get rewards. Because how else would a father treat a child who makes him proud ?

Edited October 18, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Soccer1986]

So...according to your beliefs, everybody goes to heaven?

 

Do we need to believe your beliefs to go to heaven?

 

I am truly curious. I've never heard this. The Bible does not say everyone goes to heaven.

 

I think the question of free will vs predetermination is only applicable for theists. Because the real question it is asking is: if everything we are doing is predetermined, then God already knows who goes to heaven and who doesn't. And the other sticky wicket is: how can we really have free will if God is all-knowing...wouldn't he technically KNOW what we are about to do next, thus nullifying our actual choice?

 

Some might say that Him just knowing what we will do doesn't mean it's not our free will. But I would argue otherwise. If our future is already set, then we only THINK we are choosing.

 

In general...IF there is a god...IF God does exist (I am currently having an existential crisis about this)...then I've always believed we ARE supposed to act. The entire book of James talks about proving our faith by actions. That may not specifically translate to your question, but I don't believe God wants us to sit back on our laurels and expect Him to handle everything.

 

As a practical suggestion, most women DO prefer the man to show a little initiative...we tend to find passivity a bit unattractive. So if you don't make any changes, you may have a self-fulfilling prophecy on your hands.

 

 

The answer to your question do you have to believe what I believe to go to heaven? No. Even atheists are saved and going to heaven. The Bible does teach in many New Testament epistles like Paul's writings that we are saved by grace and not by works. Jesus did everything necessary to make us fit for heaven. Romans chapter 5 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15, Ephesians and Colossians and Titus and 1 and 2nd Timothy are all good books to read about our salvation by grace alone through the faith of Christ alone.

 

In Romans 5 there is a comparison between Adam and Christ. Just as original sin came upon all people through the disobedience of Adam and all were made sinners so also by the obedience of Christ all are justified and made righteous. Both condemnation and justification were imputed to us by someone else not by anything we did.

 

The difference between the gospel vs. all the religions of the world is this: All religions have 1 common denominator and that is people are trying to work their way to heaven, climb up to God and sweat to death spiritually speaking doing it. The gospel on the other hand declares that God reached down to humanity through the person and work of Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection. He died for the sins of the whole world 1 John 2:2, John 1:29. He was raised for our justification. We get to go to heaven not because we did enough good things in this life to earn it but because of Jesus' perfect obedience and faith. No religions of the world teach that. The message of free grace gospel is not popular and not widely accepted because our natural mind is drunk on pride. Our pride in us wants something to brag about before God about why we should be allowed into heaven but someone else shouldn't. We're all equally in the same boat as guilty sinners and either everyone makes it to heaven or none of us have any hope of getting in.

 

God's ways of extending mercy and forgiveness are higher than human ways. Human patience and mercy and grace has a threshold. God's mercy endures forever. Salvation is a free gift. We cannot pay it back. In this world we have to work for everything but not when it comes to relationship to God and His kingdom. I think when we get to heaven we're all in for surprises as to how God could let someone like Hitler in.

[Soccer1986]

I think the worst crime/sin committed in human history was the murder of the Son of God. When Jesus' persecutors beat Him, mocked Him, cursed Him and crucified Him He had supernatural power to call down fire from heaven to fight them off if He wanted to. Instead He prayed for His enemies. He prayed that Father God would forgive them for they know not what they do. Jesus and the Father are one so I believe God granted that prayer request.

 

Jesus is the embodiment of grace in the flesh. Only a holy gracious God in human form could display the kind of grace He did towards His persecutors. He still loved them. If it was you and I we would have tried to fight back. We fall short of perfect love everyday in actions and deeds but Jesus didn't. Pure love is supernatural and much higher than basic humanitarian love.

 

My point is if God did forgive the sins of those who crucified His Son then how much more would He forgive us today who were not even there to have an opportunity to crucify His Son? The world looks at you as stupid if you were to display the kind of love toward your persecutors that Jesus did. Well I remember reading in 1 or 2 Corinthians that God's wisdom is foolishness to this world.

[Justanaverageguy]

So I think the difference in interpretation here is you believe that the bible says forgiveness is granted to all automatically regardless of their actions or beliefs. Regardless of whether they repent or indeed whether they even ask for forgiveness in the first place. Kind of like a blanket automatic free pass on anything and everything you do in this life. When you die - hey it doesn't matter - here you go here is your pass into heaven.

 

Honestly what sort of god would actually do that ? It doesn't make any logical sense and it isn't supported by anything in spiritual teachings anywhere. Christian or otherwise.

 

I would say that based on what the bible says my interpretation is that forgiveness is "available" to all regardless of what sin they have committed. Not that it is given to all automatically. Available is the key word. There are very specific requirements attached in order to receive it. Firstly you have to acknowledge your sin - and ask for forgiveness. Then you have to actively repent. Kind of a interesting catch right - you can't just say - all good Jesus has got this. You have to actively acknowledge the wrongness in your own actions then also actively work to rectify them. Without that you get nothing and Jesus states as much explicitly numerous times. There isn't really a grey area.

 

Read Luke 13 which covers this directly. Jesus covers how once a persons sin reaches a certain level - death is inevitable and warns against believing your sin hasn't reached this level. Essentially don’t think that others calamities mean that some people are sinners in need of repentance and others aren’t and don't. He states explicitly "Unless you repent, you too will all perish." He then goes on to explain his role as savior using the metaphor of a fig tree in a vinyard. Sinful people being an "unproductive" fig tree. Jesus being the caretaker of the vineyard who looks after it for the owner - aka God.

 

“A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil? “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

 

Doesn't really sound like a blanket free pass does it ? Also doesn't sound like you can get away with laziness or simply relying on him to do things for you. He offers more of a second chance. An opportunity to correct your actions and actively work to bear the right type of fruit.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Justanaverageguy

[Soccer1986]

So I think the difference in interpretation here is you believe that the bible says forgiveness is granted to all automatically regardless of their actions or beliefs. Regardless of whether they repent or indeed whether they even ask for forgiveness in the first place. Kind just like a blanket automatic free pass on anything and everything you do in this life. When you die - hey it doesn't matter - here you go here is your pass into heaven.

 

Honestly what sort of god would actually do that ? It doesn't make any logical sense and it isn't supported by anything in spiritual teachings anywhere. Christian or otherwise.

 

I would say that based on what the bible says my interpretation is that forgiveness is "available" to all regardless of what sin they have committed. Not that it is given to all automatically. Available is the key word. There are very specific requirements attached in order to receive it. Firstly you have to acknowledge your sin - and ask for forgiveness. Then you have to actively repent. Kind of a interesting catch right - you can't just say - all good Jesus has got this. You have to actively acknowledge the wrongness in your own actions then also actively work to rectify them. Without that you get nothing and Jesus states as much explicitly numerous times. There isn't really a grey area.

 

Read Luke 13 which covers this directly. He covers how once a persons sin reaches a certain level - death is inevitable and warns against believing your sin hasn't reached this level. He states explicitly "Unless you repent, you too will all perish." He then went on to explain his role as savior using the metaphor of a fig tree in a vinyard. Sinful people being an "unproductive" fig tree - Jesus being the caretaker of the vineyard who looks after it for the owner - God.

 

“A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil? “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

 

Doesn't really sound like a blanket free pass does it ? Also doesn't sound like you can get away with laziness or simply relying on him to do things for you. He offers more of a second chance. An opportunity to correct your actions and actively work to bear the right type of fruit.

 

 

In Mathew 5 Jesus taught His disciples to forgive their enemies, do good to those who persecute them so they can be like their Father in heaven. He never said forgive them only if they change their ways. If He tells them to forgive and do good without expectation that their enemies will change then how much more is God going to forgive. I think God practices what He preaches or else He would be a hypocrite. Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. His earthly ministry was about being the expression of the Father's love and grace.

 

Your interpretation is not about grace at all but a probationary period. Grace is not a behavioral improvement agreement. God doesn't relate to us the same way a probation officer relates to an ex convict released from prison.

 

No I don't believe anyone has a free pass to do anything in life. Just because all are saved does not mean we are protected from the earthly consequences of our actions. If a person robs a bank obviously there is no free pass because they will go to jail even though God has forgiven them. God instituted human government in Romans chapter 13 for the purpose of keeping evil in check. There's no free pass. It's pretty difficult to get away with murder today with our technology. It's not that difficult for investigators to find out who committed the murder.

 

If a husband commits adultery God already forgave that sin at the cross but there's a good chance his wife won't forgive him and ruin him in divorce court. If I commit gluttony and eat too many sweets I'll probably get diabetes. There's no free pass there. That doesn't mean God hasn't forgiven me for eating more than my body needs. A drunk driver is going to lose all kinds of privileges and financial costs but he's forgiven by God.

 

I don't think the knowledge that all are going to heaven is going to breed more laziness and carelessness than what is already there. Regardless of what anyone believes about spirituality or the afterlife or whether we believe God has conditions on forgiveness or not what we do know and what is universally self evident is that as long as we live in this world we have to deal with a society everyday who is not going to be nearly as forgiving as God is. That is not a free pass. You and I might live a long life like 100 years. Do I really want to live a lifestyle that damages the trust factor in my relationship to society? No. There's no free pass. I'm still going to heaven but if I don't live responsibly I'm going to bring pain on myself until I get there.

 

Love is conditional in all human relationships. The gospel does not address human relationships but rather unconditional love in relationship to God.

 

In the book of Isaiah The Lord says that His thoughts and ways of doing things are not our thoughts and ways of doing things.

[Justanaverageguy]

So my question is simply if you believe that - how do you explain Jesus words ?

 

How do you explain what he states in Luke 13 - The parable of the fig tree.

How do you explain what he states in Matthew 13 - The Parable of the weeds.

 

“As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear."

 

I'm just struggling to see how you could have another interpretation after reading that.