Beyond the affair

[Vivir]

Please excuse me, translucentsoul, I am very sorry. I didn't realize you were answering your own question from your original post - even though you did quote it in your most recent post. Forgive me. It is so clear in hindsight... now I am embarrassed...

 

Still, what I bolded in your most recent post about being affair fog language just might help the next person who says what you said, but in reference to a married man.

 

I sincerely wish you and your single guy (SG) the best of luck on this path! Go slow! And if you're not exclusive, I don't see why you can't date others - and I do mean "date" in the strictest sense of the word. During this stage, it could be that you find dating others is not where you want to be... it may solidify that the SG you've really got your eye on is the one for you, the one you really want, and you will naturally get to a place where you only want to date him...

 

Moreover, I have found that learning to trust myself means awareness and doing right by myself with repeated actions. I really do wish you the best of luck on this journey

 

 

Vivir,

 

I totally get what you're saying. These guys are so damn selfish and self-absorbed. Mine actually expressed gratitude to me for helping him get through a "bad time" (ie, blue balls) while his wife was pregnant and refusing to have sex with him. Well hey, great for you, buddy. Sheez.

 

jah, wow. Just wow. I guess he saw you as a prop, as a useful tool to be taken out to use when the condition presented itself... like a blender or a heated blanket or snow shoes... I can hardly believe your xMM fixed his mouth to say those words to you, but that is quite telling... how he really felt and all. I am so sorry; his words were truly callous.

 

You know, it came out much later that xMM's BW had been pregnant during our affair. He claims not to have known at first. When I found out - by accident - it was utterly crushing AND the baby was almost a year old. He didn't understand what the problem was, as it had happened before we started. In my mind, the fact that they didn't have children made it believable that he would actually be leaving the marriage since he claimed to be so unhappy in it... having a child meant he wasn't going anywhere. Our coworkers knew, but he deliberately kept it from me. I wonder why

Edited October 23, 2017 by Vivir

[Overtaxed]

jah, wow. Just wow. I guess he saw you as a prop, as a useful tool to be taken out to use when the condition presented itself... like a blender or a heated blanket or snow shoes... I can hardly believe your xMM fixed his mouth to say those words to you, but that is quite telling... how he really felt and all. I am so sorry; his words were truly callous.

 

I totally get what you're saying. These guys are so damn selfish and self-absorbed. Mine actually expressed gratitude to me for helping him get through a "bad time" (ie, blue balls) while his wife was pregnant and refusing to have sex with him. Well hey, great for you, buddy. Sheez.

 

<Sigh>.

 

At least he was honest. So many MM spin these elaborate tales about how special the AP is to them, soulmates, how "if things were different".. My W's did. But, end of the day, she was just helping him through a low sex period in his relationship with his wife. For male APs, it's almost always about sex, I know people disagree with me, and I know there are exceptions, but some huge portion of male APs are there mostly or exclusively for the sex. If you don't think so, cut off the sex until they break up with their wives, you'll find out real quick what they are really there for.

 

It has made me less trusting of people in general, for sure. I am more cynical, more skeptical. I see affairs around me. When I hear of a divorce, I assume that there was likely an affair in the background.

 

Sadly, this is how I've always viewed everyone in my life except my wife. I looked at her through a different lens and expected the worst from everyone else. But yes, the more you see this, the more you become cold to it; most of the guys I know cheat with some regularity (basically, someone says "Yes" to their lines). I never agreed with it, but, now, having after my W's A, it actively pisses me off. Makes me want to withdraw from the world even further than I already have.

[jah526]

<Sigh>.

At least he was honest.

 

He mixed in the truth with lies a lot so I never knew what was real. But I agree that that was probably one of his more honest moments. Funny thing is, he didn't want to stop once that period was over, so he was either lying about that or he'd gotten a taste for it. Bottom line though - he was actively seeking someone with whom to cheat on his wife.

 

Makes me want to withdraw from the world even further than I already have.

 

I understand this sentiment and pretty much feel the same way. However, I still believe there are good people in this world, and I'm making an effort to be around them and distance myself from the others.

[Vivir]

Overtaxed, hello! Your older posts in this forum were pivotal in helping me face some harsh truths about my affair and xMM, i.e., what he was likely thinking - the truth of what he was thinking, because by God, he didn't tell me anything like what you say or what FMS and jah's xMM told them. Sometimes, I couldn't bear to read your words...

 

But I totally agree with you. When I began to enforce a real "friendship" boundary, he finally had to (realize?) admit that he wasn't interested in a friendship that didn't include sex... not with me anyway.. perhaps he was always looking for an affair partner, as jah stated. Perhaps friendship had been on the table before we started an affair, but after it that it no longer was on offer, because he had developed a taste for it... I don't know and he didn't say.

 

But anyway -

 

I am dismayed that you sighed at me and jah There has been a lot to unpack following these entanglements. Some days my focus is on one aspect of it, and on others it is on something else altogether. I mean to express my suspicion that the things these MM told FoundMyStrength and jah, for example, happened well into their affairs. Not at the beginning.

 

Based on my experience and the general consensus here, most OW think we have (or had) a real shot at being with the MM one day. So that's my point: if they had spoken these truthful words before the affairs began, or closer to the beginning, the affairs likely would not have happened. Furthermore, when the words were finally spoken, these MM knew full-and-well that the OW's feelings were likely to get really hurt. I just realized that this might have been the point in them saying those words... that sucks considering. But most OW think we're special...

 

I completely get the idea now that we should have never expected anything better considering these men were lying and cheating on their wives...

[Overtaxed]

When I began to enforce a real "friendship" boundary, he finally had to (realize?) admit that he wasn't interested in a friendship that didn't include sex... not with me anyway.. perhaps he was always looking for an affair partner, as jah stated.

 

Probably not with anyone. There's a video I often post to try to get the point across, I'll link it below, but, most men (myself included) just don't operate like women. Simply put, if we're sexually attracted (at all) to a woman, being friends with her isn't in the cards. Many (most, IMHO) of us don't enjoy friendship with women, it's very one sided for us and if we're engaging in it, it's typically because we're hoping to slide in bed with you.

 

I wasn't sighing at you, not at all. I was sighing at a guy actually telling the truth, and how that much have made the person hearing it feel. Sometimes, especially when you've already crossed the line, it's better to just lie. Telling someone they were your sex toy and helped you "get through a bad time" is just terrible form. But it's also good that you heard it, although I wish you hadn't had to, because I'm sure you have a deeper understanding now of how men view A's, AP's and how they operate in relationships. No, we're not all like that. Many of us are. And I feel totally comfortable saying that the vast majority of men in A's are, in fact, just like that.

 

He mixed in the truth with lies a lot so I never knew what was real. But I agree that that was probably one of his more honest moments. Funny thing is, he didn't want to stop once that period was over, so he was either lying about that or he'd gotten a taste for it. Bottom line though - he was actively seeking someone with whom to cheat on his wife.

 

While we hear story after story about how it "just happened", I think the truth is much more what you saw, he was actively looking for it. Someone has to actively seek it out, they really do, and it's usually the man; for an A to happen. Yes, I'm sure there are some "romance comedy" A's out there, people just grow together and realize they like each other. Most, IMHO, are far more calculated, one of the AP's decides "I want to sleep with this person" and starts to take actions to make that happen. The other person responds, of course, but, it's not 2 people fumbling around, one person is driving the bus, the other is on for the ride.

 

So that's my point: if they had spoken these truthful words before the affairs began, or closer to the beginning, the affairs likely would not have happened. Furthermore, when the words were finally spoken, these MM knew full-and-well that the OW's feelings were likely to get really hurt. I just realized that this might have been the point in them saying those words... that sucks considering. But most OW think we're special...

 

Absolutely not, in fact, most male/female relationships wouldn't happen if there was "truth from the beginning". When I met my wife, I had NO intention of marrying her and every intention of getting her in bed as fast as possible. Does that make me a terrible person that I didn't tell her that and "acted like" I was really into her? Well, I'm sure some people think it does, but, this is how men operate, at least some of us (most, IMHO). Most men have little/no interest in being your friend and a very strong interest in seeing how quickly they can get your naked. That's just the way it is, suppose otherwise, wish it wasn't so, bury head in sand at your own peril. I hurt a lot of women when I was younger doing exactly what your AP (and most male APs) do, lying through my teeth about my feelings to have sex. Yes, I do feel bad about some of it now, especially a few that I know I really hurt. I never cheated, but I was a terrible person who wouldn't even "pretend" to commit which is why I never "had to" cheat. Yeah, I was a real peach, but, thing is, most of my friends were like that too! It's not like I was the one "terrible guy", we all operated under the same rules, sleep with the best looking women we can without committing to any of them, say whatever it takes. Which, incidently, are the same rules that male AP's play by when they engage in extra-marital activities. Trust me, I saw it in black and white, I got the TXT messages from my W's A, and I saw all the same garbage I would "spin" as a young man repeated back, in some cases verbatim, by the OM.

 

I completely get the idea now that we should have never expected anything better considering these men were lying and cheating on their wives...

 

This is exactly it, you really nailed it with this statement. What should you actually expect entering an A? A lot of sex. Kinky sex. No strings attached/booty calls. Risky encounters. Tons of lying to your spouse. And tons of lies from your AP. If you want that; go for it (well, not really, but, you get my point), but know what you're signing up for. Trust me, men do, we do it for the sex, which we get in spades from an A. But if that's not what your after, you're looking in the wrong place and you will get hurt. As I see here over and over again.

 

 

[FoundMyStrength]

FoundMyStrength, I had written this whole long reply to what you wrote and then it disappeared!! I am distraught!

 

I became so upset reading what your xMM did to you I am almost positive he meant this as some sort of compliment. I, like you, viewed it as a type of theft! Why come to me, a person living without love, dangle that carrot, take what I have to give - almost everything I have to give, and as a consolation prize, take it back to a woman with everything already. Why would he do that? I refuse to believe a fairly educated, mature, and somewhat (?) intuitive man doesn't know that this is like pouring salt in a wound... right?

 

Vivir, thanks for taking the time to rewrite your post and for your kind words! In retrospect, it's hard to believe how callous my xMM really was to say some of these things aloud. It's also hard to believe how bad of a place I must have been in to hear these words and still have any feelings for him.

 

Your last sentence says it all. My xMM was educated and all the rest, and it's hard to believe that he didn't know what he was doing, how much he was hurting me and would hurt me.

 

But maybe that's it. These men can be educated but they're emotional children, unable to see beyond their own selfish needs. My xMM said he loved me, and could tell me all the reasons why, but I don't think he really, truly viewed me as a person. I was the thing that made him feel good at that moment. I was the thing that allowed him to escape what was -- at the time -- an unhappy marriage.

 

And objects don't have feelings that you can hurt.

 

I'll tell you one thing, though. I'll spend the rest of my days a spinster with too many cats before I ever let a man make me feel like a disposable, single-use piece of garbage again.

Edited October 24, 2017 by FoundMyStrength

[jah526]

There's one thing I don't understand about MM getting into affairs only for the sex. Why don't they simply find a prostitute? Wouldn't that be much easier than spending months or maybe even years finding the "right" woman and then even more time grooming her? Are all of them that put off by the expense/diseases/legality?

 

I think there's more going on. I've noticed that quite a few women here have gotten involved in affairs when there is a new baby in MM's life. Maybe the family becomes more centered around the wife and children, and the MM starts feeling excluded and unnecessary. He wants to feel needed again...

[waterwoman]

 

I think there's more going on. I've noticed that quite a few women here have gotten involved in affairs when there is a new baby in MM's life. Maybe the family becomes more centered around the wife and children, and the MM starts feeling excluded and unnecessary. He wants to feel needed again...

 

Funnily enough H has become a lot more open about the affair and his feelings generally now we are 5 years down the line from d-day. One of the things he has said recently is that he was jealous of the attention I gave our children and felt excluded. I knew that, I could see it clearly, and tried to rectify it, but until now he wouldn't admit it.

[Overtaxed]

There's one thing I don't understand about MM getting into affairs only for the sex. Why don't they simply find a prostitute? Wouldn't that be much easier than spending months or maybe even years finding the "right" woman and then even more time grooming her? Are all of them that put off by the expense/diseases/legality?

 

I think there's more going on. I've noticed that quite a few women here have gotten involved in affairs when there is a new baby in MM's life. Maybe the family becomes more centered around the wife and children, and the MM starts feeling excluded and unnecessary. He wants to feel needed again...

 

Even I, the self-proclaimed "king" of "he's only there for the sex" will agree there's more going on. It's what sex represents, the conquest, the ego boost associated with it, especially if the AP is married, the thrill of sex with a new person. My argument isn't that there's not more beyond the sex, my argument is that the "more" isn't usually what most women are looking for. It's not because he loves you and you're so special, it's because you said "Yes" and he wants the ego boost that comes from sleeping with another man's wife. You're a prop for him and a toy; and in some ways, he is for you as well. But he's getting what he came for (sex) and very often you won't get what you came for (love).

 

Yes, men often have A's after a baby comes. And, your explanation is good, but I'd add to it, it's also the long dry spell of sex that comes after a baby that motivates these men to cheat. It's all coupled together. But take away the sex, most men would never consider it, it's the sex that's there primary motivation, not the "other stuff"; that comes along for the ride.

 

Why not just see a pro? Some people do, we have threads on it. Social implications and the way they'd be viewed in the eyes of others, probably the most significant reason. Men brag about their A's; my wife's AP took her somewhere where his friends would see them together so that he could "show her off". An A with a pro, you don't get to brag about that, it's shameful (why don't you just go screw someone single or snag some losers wife for a few rolls in the hay) rather than ego boosting for men. But a lot of men do go this route; I don't remember the stats, but it's "more than you think" men who've admitted to going to pros, and that number is most likely understated because of the stigma. But the existence of prostitutes should tell you something. Men are so desirous of sex that they will pay for it. Even if they could get it for free, they will pay to have the "ease" of professional sex. A lot of rich/famous men get caught with pros, not because they can't get sex elsewhere, but because they so want that ONS type experience that they'll actually pay for it instead of trying to get it from someone for free. That should tell you a lot of about how sex is viewed by men, no, not all men, but a lot of us.

[elaine567]

Based on my experience and the general consensus here, most OW think we have (or had) a real shot at being with the MM one day. .

 

Yes, and that is the main problem.

He is the archetypal "good guy", the guy who is perfect father/husband material. He has to be, he has already been "chosen" or has himself chosen commitment.

He is "perfect".

He will probably fit right into a family setting and mothers and fathers will love him.

He is "smoother" than your average single guy and "He loves ME, lil ole ME... Wow!"

 

There is the little thing of the wife, but the poor guy made a bad mistake there, he now needs a proper woman not the "reject" he already has, it will all be fine.

 

All goes well until it doesn't.

Now what was so obviously perfect was a sham and that is shockingly disconcerting as the picker which seemed so en pointe, was so off kilter it is now deemed absurd...

What seemed so trustworthy, right and certain, was all lies, deceit, smoke and mirrors.

NO wonder trust flies out the window as where does one go from there?

 

The seemingly all round good guy* was really a bad guy...

(*of course he wasn't actually a "good guy", he was married.")

[Overtaxed]

Yes, and that is the main problem.

He is the archetypal "good guy", the guy who is perfect father/husband material. He has to be, he has already been "chosen" or has himself chosen commitment.

He is "perfect".

He will probably fit right into a family setting and mothers and fathers will love him.

He is "smoother" than your average single guy and "He loves ME, lil ole ME... Wow!"

 

There is the little thing of the wife, but the poor guy made a bad mistake there, he now needs a proper woman not the "reject" he already has, it will all be fine.

 

All goes well until it doesn't.

Now what was so obviously perfect was a sham and that is shockingly disconcerting as the picker which seemed so en pointe, was so off kilter it is now deemed absurd...

What seemed so trustworthy, right and certain, was all lies, deceit, smoke and mirrors.

NO wonder trust flies out the window as where does one go from there?

 

The seemingly all round good guy* was really a bad guy...

(*of course he wasn't actually a "good guy", he was married.")

 

First off, Elaine and I almost never agree, but, on this one, I think she nailed it. Which is hard for me to admit.

 

The last sentence tells you everything you need to know, it really does. His actions, most notably, cheating on his W, shows you everything you need to know. Sure, he sounds like a great guy, his wife is a nightmare, he's being abused at home.. Blah, blah, blah. Everyone says that. No way to get into an A without saying that about your BS, simply isn't (well, maybe for women, I think a lot of guys would be OK with "My man is awesome, I just want more sex", but, for men, NO WAY that would work for most people).

 

Anyway, off topic, OF COURSE he's not a good guy, he's married and cheating on his wife with you. What else do you need to know? It's like someone saying "I'm a vegan" while they are chomping down a 96 oz Porterhouse. I can't tell you what kind of food that person likes, but I can tell you, without ANY question at all, he/she is not a vegan.

 

Same thing with an A. He could be a hopeless romantic. He could be a good father. He could be really good at his job. But he is NOT a good guy to women, in fact, he's a terrible person to women. And what else do you want to know; you really want to be with someone like that? Is the fact he's a good father enough to overlook the fact that he's a terrible partner? You're not auditioning for the role of "child", your auditioning for the role of wife.

[elaine567]

First off, Elaine and I almost never agree.

Really? I was not aware of that...

[rumblefish12]

It's what sex represents, the conquest, the ego boost associated with it, especially if the AP is married, the thrill of sex with a new person. My argument isn't that there's not more beyond the sex, my argument is that the "more" isn't usually what most women are looking for. .........he wants the ego boost that comes from sleeping with another man's wife. You're a prop for him and a toy; and in some ways, he is for you as well. But he's getting what he came for (sex) and very often you won't get what you came for (love).

 

I don't disagree with what you've said, but it is female-centric. I realize each circumstance is different, but we do acknowledge patterns. In fact, it's kind of scary to realize how clichéd we are once we get here. My question is, do you think what a MM is doing in an A is fundamentally different from what a MW is doing in an A?

[Overtaxed]

I don't disagree with what you've said, but it is female-centric. I realize each circumstance is different, but we do acknowledge patterns. In fact, it's kind of scary to realize how clichéd we are once we get here. My question is, do you think what a MM is doing in an A is fundamentally different from what a MW is doing in an A?

 

Oh, everyone is lying to everyone, that's pretty clear in most A's, without question. But the MM is really getting the sex that he's after. The MW isn't typically going to actually get the emotions/feelings/caring that she's after, just words.

 

Think of it this way, if the "typical" A didn't involve sex, just sexy talk but almost never action, most men would run from this, blow up my marriage just to have someone to talk to? No way! (I am aware that there are males in "pure" EA's, I'd argue that 100% would go PA immediately if the woman would agree, an EA is basically the "friend zone" a place men universally hate).

 

But the reality is this. You're very unlikely to enter an A and have a man really care about you. It's likely you'll blow up your marriage. And you'll get nothing but a bunch of lies to show for it. If you're after sex, then, OK, I get it, you'll get that from the A. But real emotions? Very unlikely.

 

So, what's the MW doing that's different? Blowing up her marriage for something that's not even real. At least if you're after sex, it's real, yes your marriage blew up, but you did have sex. All those "I love you's" during the A? About as real as a fantasy novel in many cases, except, of course, you just tore your life apart to read that novel.

[somanymistakes]

(I am aware that there are males in "pure" EA's, I'd argue that 100% would go PA immediately if the woman would agree, an EA is basically the "friend zone" a place men universally hate).

 

Not 100% but if you set it at 95% you probably won't get a lot of arguments.

 

(Discounting my weird situation, there are at least a few men who just like to flirt and get the ego-stroking, but don't actually want to take that all-the-way step.)

[rumblefish12]

So, what's the MW doing that's different?

 

Your points are well taken. I realize there is plenty of fault to go around. But do you think because the MM really wants sex (assuming he's clear in his own mind about what he is doing) and the MW wants love/emotion, that it is the MM's fault and the MW is a victim?

[Overtaxed]

Not 100% but if you set it at 95% you probably won't get a lot of arguments.

 

(Discounting my weird situation, there are at least a few men who just like to flirt and get the ego-stroking, but don't actually want to take that all-the-way step.)

 

I'm sure that 95% is in range. But I set it at 100% to be provocative. Honestly, I've been a man for a long time; and I've never had the slightest desire to be emotionally intimate with a woman who I'm not sexually interested in. Not the slightest desire. If I'm opening emotionally to a woman, it's because I want to be physical with her.

 

I suspect my experience is more the norm than the exception.

[Overtaxed]

Your points are well taken. I realize there is plenty of fault to go around. But do you think because the MM really wants sex (assuming he's clear in his own mind about what he is doing) and the MW wants love/emotion, that it is the MM's fault and the MW is a victim?

 

Not at all, no fault assigned here. The intention for both parties is equally bad. My only argument is that the MM is going to get what he's after in most cases and the MW is NOT going to get what she's after in most cases. But neither of them are victims, not by a long shot.

[jah526]

Even I, the self-proclaimed "king" of "he's only there for the sex" will agree there's more going on. It's what sex represents, the conquest, the ego boost associated with it, especially if the AP is married, the thrill of sex with a new person. My argument isn't that there's not more beyond the sex, my argument is that the "more" isn't usually what most women are looking for. It's not because he loves you and you're so special, it's because you said "Yes" and he wants the ego boost that comes from sleeping with another man's wife. You're a prop for him and a toy; and in some ways, he is for you as well. But he's getting what he came for (sex) and very often you won't get what you came for (love).

 

Yes, men often have A's after a baby comes. And, your explanation is good, but I'd add to it, it's also the long dry spell of sex that comes after a baby that motivates these men to cheat. It's all coupled together. But take away the sex, most men would never consider it, it's the sex that's there primary motivation, not the "other stuff"; that comes along for the ride.

 

Why not just see a pro? Some people do, we have threads on it. Social implications and the way they'd be viewed in the eyes of others, probably the most significant reason. Men brag about their A's; my wife's AP took her somewhere where his friends would see them together so that he could "show her off". An A with a pro, you don't get to brag about that, it's shameful (why don't you just go screw someone single or snag some losers wife for a few rolls in the hay) rather than ego boosting for men. But a lot of men do go this route; I don't remember the stats, but it's "more than you think" men who've admitted to going to pros, and that number is most likely understated because of the stigma. But the existence of prostitutes should tell you something. Men are so desirous of sex that they will pay for it. Even if they could get it for free, they will pay to have the "ease" of professional sex. A lot of rich/famous men get caught with pros, not because they can't get sex elsewhere, but because they so want that ONS type experience that they'll actually pay for it instead of trying to get it from someone for free. That should tell you a lot of about how sex is viewed by men, no, not all men, but a lot of us.

 

Hm, interesting. Sounds like it's more about ego validation than it is about sex, but probably sex for men is a primary way of getting that validation. That would square with the reason why they prefer to seek out another woman instead of going to a prostitute, if most see that as shameful, because it wouldn't be ego validating in that case. It would also square with why men seek out affairs once a new baby comes along, if it causes them to start feeling bad about themselves.

 

MM told me in one of his more honest moments that he had a problem with needing attention. I think he does need it from other women because his wife knows him and he can't get that awe from her that he craves.

 

In any case, this is probably splitting hairs. But the main takeaway is that the OW shouldn't be thinking she's "special" when it's more likely that she's just helping to prop up someone's flagging ego.

[Overtaxed]

Hm, interesting. Sounds like it's more about ego validation than it is about sex, but probably sex for men is a primary way of getting that validation. That would square with the reason why they prefer to seek out another woman instead of going to a prostitute, if most see that as shameful, because it wouldn't be ego validating in that case. It would also square with why men seek out affairs once a new baby comes along, if it causes them to start feeling bad about themselves.

 

MM told me in one of his more honest moments that he had a problem with needing attention. I think he does need it from other women because his wife knows him and he can't get that awe from her that he craves.

 

In any case, this is probably splitting hairs. But the main takeaway is that the OW shouldn't be thinking she's "special" when it's more likely that she's just helping to prop up someone's flagging ego.

 

I think your right, but I'd also say, as a man, that's not how it feels. Yes, I'm aware there are a million reasons I want to have sex, some of them ego, some of them love, some of them simply to have some time where the world shuts down. I suspect the same would be true with an AP. But, thing is, that's not how I experience it. I want to have sex, and I start about a "mission" to get it. Yes, there are underlying forces driving that, but, end of the day, it's sex I want, not attention, not an emotionally close friend, not a bonding experience. All those things may happen as a result of it, but the "drive" is sex, and that is how I experience it.

 

Look at the "pure" drive for a moment. Men masturbate a lot. That's not about their ego, it's not about how "special" their hand is, it's about sex. Now, dig deeper, it might be about self-soothing, it might be about trying to get to sleep, might even be about "making sure you still can do it", but, that's not how we experience it. "I'm horny, gonna beat off" is what we feel. Just like, in most male/female relationships I've been in, sex wasn't about love, it was about "I'm horny, I'm gonna get off with her". No, I realize that's not the case for most women, but that is how I (speaking for myself) experienced sex with new people, and pretty much with everyone up until my W. I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that would be the reason that drove me to have sex with someone outside my M, and I suspect it's the case for many MM as well.

 

Also, one final thing, in cultures where prostitutes are accepted, men visit them a lot. I agree with you, the "shameful" aspect of it is what keeps more "would be APs" from going to pros vs going after "civilians". But if that wasn't there, for example, in some eastern cultures, then prostitutes become a fixture of the male community. I've never seen this first hand, but I have friends who've been "in country" for a long time and their stories tell me pretty succinctly that it's not the service that men don't want, it's the stigma. Remove that, you get a lot more men using those services.

[somanymistakes]

Women's alone-time is not generally about how "special" their vibrator is either

 

(I know, I know, there are some differences, but they aren't as wide as we sometimes think, either!)