[Other woman] vs the [married woman] - infidelity related

[misspalmy]

Why do you think the ow and the MW who cheats on her man. both the woman get bad names. Ow gets a bad name and so does the MW. yet the MM and the OM dont.

 

have you found this the case?

[kittencupcake]

Nope. Anyone who cheats gets a bad name.

[cocorico]

Nope. Anyone who cheats gets a bad name.

 

Not really. Some get voted president of the US.

[Cobra_X]

Not really. Some get voted president of the US.

 

Party loyalty drives voters today, not morals.

 

Let's be honest here. OW gets called a homewrecker and generally treated poorly. MW gets very little condemnation since they blame her husband for not "satisfying" her. OM tend to be viewed like some kind of Casanova. MM are viewed as dogs and selfish jerks.

[Birdies]

Party loyalty drives voters today, not morals.

 

Let's be honest here. OW gets called a homewrecker and generally treated poorly. MW gets very little condemnation since they blame her husband for not "satisfying" her. OM tend to be viewed like some kind of Casanova. MM are viewed as dogs and selfish jerks.

 

Have you been a MW? I have. It's entirely not true that we get very little condemnation. That hasn't been my experience at all. In my experience, 100% of the blame of my marriage ending seems to be heaped on me - when in fact the affair was a symptom of the marital problems that likely would have led to the demise of the marriage sooner rather than later. Granted, an affair was entirely the wrong thing to do, the worst possible way to handle any situation, and is 100% my own fault - but it is reflective of larger problems that have since been completely nullified in the public consciousness. Which is fine, consequences have actions and I completely accept that. But to say MW get off lightly just isn't true.

[DKT3]

Have you been a MW? I have. It's entirely not true that we get very little condemnation. That hasn't been my experience at all. In my experience, 100% of the blame of my marriage ending seems to be heaped on me - when in fact the affair was a symptom of the marital problems that likely would have led to the demise of the marriage sooner rather than later. Granted, an affair was entirely the wrong thing to do, the worst possible way to handle any situation, and is 100% my own fault - but it is reflective of larger problems that have since been completely nullified in the public consciousness. Which is fine, consequences have actions and I completely accept that. But to say MW get off lightly just isn't true.

 

Ah, this argument again....so your marriage cheated? Or did you? Did your ex husband cheat? Nah your affair had nothing to do with your marriage and everything to do with you. Maybe your marriage would have ended anyways, maybe not you will never know because you did cheat.

 

I believe that women in general get a rougher go when it comes to cheating, but really it's the con of social norms where female virtues is held in high standing. Unfaithful women tend to be shunned, while boys will be boys. Pros are that husbands more often get labeled as weak, inadequate or uncaring when the woman cheats. In short the social norms say men cause women to cheat, then the women is shunned for actually cheating. No one wins, only loser.

[Birdies]

Ah, this argument again....so your marriage cheated? Or did you? Did your ex husband cheat? Nah your affair had nothing to do with your marriage and everything to do with you. Maybe your marriage would have ended anyways, maybe not you will never know because you did cheat.

 

I believe that women in general get a rougher go when it comes to cheating, but really it's the con of social norms where female virtues is held in high standing. Unfaithful women tend to be shunned, while boys will be boys. Pros are that husbands more often get labeled as weak, inadequate or uncaring when the woman cheats. In short the social norms say men cause women to cheat, then the women is shunned for actually cheating. No one wins, only loser.

 

I'll repeat for those in the back who weren't listening: an affair was entirely the wrong thing to do, the worst possible way to handle any situation, and is 100% my own fault

 

Apparently I missed the memo that having an affair means that you are automatically disqualified from discussing the previous 15 years of marriage.

 

I agree that everyone loses and it's a shltty situation all around.

[DKT3]

I'll repeat for those in the back who weren't listening: an affair was entirely the wrong thing to do, the worst possible way to handle any situation, and is 100% my own fault

 

Apparently I missed the memo that having an affair means that you are automatically disqualified from discussing the previous 15 years of marriage.

 

I agree that everyone loses and it's a shltty situation all around.

 

You own it with a disclaimer.

 

No your affair doesn't make all the other issues go away, but they also didn't make you cheat. You cheated because you wanted to not because he wouldn't pick up his socks.

[grassisorisntgreener]

Have you been a MW? I have. It's entirely not true that we get very little condemnation. That hasn't been my experience at all. In my experience, 100% of the blame of my marriage ending seems to be heaped on me - when in fact the affair was a symptom of the marital problems that likely would have led to the demise of the marriage sooner rather than later. Granted, an affair was entirely the wrong thing to do, the worst possible way to handle any situation, and is 100% my own fault - but it is reflective of larger problems that have since been completely nullified in the public consciousness. Which is fine, consequences have actions and I completely accept that. But to say MW get off lightly just isn't true.

 

100% my experience as well.

[Southwardbound]

100% my experience as well.

 

I don't think I would have been a WS if my marriage hadn't already had issues. In hindsight, what I should have done then was immediately divorce and marry the now OM (when he was single) like he wanted me to, back then. But, I was too immature & scared to make the plunge. Instead, I rough-patched the marriage, staying for many years. MY H then cheated on me with a very close friend. I found out, H said he would stop - we rough patched the marriage again. But H went back to cheating with her again. By, then I was mature, my kids were older, & I was more financially independent so I made the leap & divorced him. It wasn't easy.

No one knew I had been a WS earlier, although everyone (friends & family) knew he cheated. Upon Divorce the marital friends divided, many went over to him, accepting his cheating. I was surprised by this, but I guess it's still socially acceptable for Males to cheat? Divorce was messy, nasty, & long. Kids came out just fine.

And now years later I am back with the man I had the original affair with, although he is now married. We do both love each other, but I do recognize that sometimes love isn't enough to always overcome all the circumstances to be together 24/7.

I don't think one can always attach labels to why an affair occurs, they happen for all different reasons. However, the patterns of affair actions may be similar. I do think affairs happen because you give yourself permission to go down that route. It is a question of personal boundaries.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Southwardbound

[grassisorisntgreener]

I don't think I would have been a WS if my marriage hadn't already had issues. In hindsight, what I should have done then was immediately divorce and marry the now OM (when he was single) like he wanted me to, back then. But, I was too immature & scared to make the plunge. Instead, I rough-patched the marriage, staying for many years. MY H then cheated on me with a very close friend. I found out, H said he would stop - we rough patched the marriage again. But H went back to cheating with her again. By, then I was mature, my kids were older, & I was more financially independent so I made the leap & divorced him. It wasn't easy.

No one knew I had been a WS earlier, although everyone (friends & family) knew he cheated. Upon Divorce the marital friends divided, many went over to him, accepting his cheating. I was surprised by this, but I guess it's still socially acceptable for Males to cheat? Divorce was messy, nasty, & long. Kids came out just fine.

And now years later I am back with the man I had the original affair with, although he is now married. We do both love each other, but I do recognize that sometimes love isn't enough to always overcome all the circumstances to be together 24/7.

I don't think one can always attach labels to why an affair occurs, they happen for all different reasons. However, the patterns of affair actions may be similar. I do think affairs happen because you give yourself permission to go down that route. It is a question of personal boundaries.

 

Mine was absolutely a case of extremely poor boundaries and feelings of entitlement.

[malvern99]

I don't think I would have been a WS if my marriage hadn't already had issues.

 

This sentiment hinges on the idea that perfect marriages can exist, and that is just not the case. We are all human, and as a result, perfect is impossible. Every marriage has issues. Some are big, some are small, and some can be overcome, while others can't. The key is 2 way communication.

 

I think the stigma women (especially married women) in affairs face is a residual side effect of the possible consequences of an affair prior to things like reliable birth control and DNA testing. Men also face consequences, just not as publicly as women though, and that's a shame.

[Southwardbound]

This sentiment hinges on the idea that perfect marriages can exist, and that is just not the case. We are all human, and as a result, perfect is impossible. Every marriage has issues. Some are big, some are small, and some can be overcome, while others can't. The key is 2 way communication.

 

I think the stigma women (especially married women) in affairs face is a residual side effect of the possible consequences of an affair prior to things like reliable birth control and DNA testing. Men also face consequences, just not as publicly as women though, and that's a shame.

 

Malvern99 - Whoa there, I NEVER expressed the idea, that All marriages or even MY marriage was perfect. Nor did I give out any information regarding whether my long marriage was bad or good. I never had any fantasy that being married could be, is, or was - a Disney fantasy. To me all relationships and I categorize a relationship by definition whether it is a marriage, dating partnership, or affair, as a connection that two individuals have between one another. For me relationships are not a perfect fantasy, but real. Real is something one can touch, feel, sense, even taste. It can give you all sorts of feelings, good / bad, even 'moments' where perfection is attained.

 

Indeed you are correct that good communication is essential to the success of a relationship. However, be aware that not even good communication cannot overcome all issues. My ex and I, we had good communication & in general had a good marriage, yet, we still at different times within our marriage gave ourselves permission to break those boundaries we signed up for in the beginning. My MM does likewise in his marriage. And I'm sure we are NOT the only ones out there who have despite our having good communications with our respective spouses.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Southwardbound

[stillafool]

Why do you think the ow and the MW who cheats on her man. both the woman get bad names. Ow gets a bad name and so does the MW. yet the MM and the OM dont.

 

have you found this the case?

 

This is absolutely not true. The OM and MM get blamed the most from what I read. Most OW act as if they were forced or manipulated to get into the affair as if they don't have a mind of their own.

[somanymistakes]

This is absolutely not true. The OM and MM get blamed the most from what I read. Most OW act as if they were forced or manipulated to get into the affair as if they don't have a mind of their own.

 

It really depends on who's talking and where. People almost always have more sympathy for their own friends. This particular subforum is full of OWs and we are more likely to have sympathy for each other. There are other forums full of married men commiserating how hard it is for them with their neglectful wives and all those beautiful women out there who want their attention, blah blah blah.

 

When people talk about certain celebrity couples, though, where they have no personal connection to the people involved, there's often more vitriol aimed at either the 'homewrecker' OW (if a man cheated) or the 'traitor' MW (if a woman cheated) while the man's part in it is ignored. Even then, though, it might be because it's women gossiping and they find the famous man attractive and are therefore more sympathetic to him.

[Cobra_X]

Have you been a MW? I have. It's entirely not true that we get very little condemnation. That hasn't been my experience at all. In my experience, 100% of the blame of my marriage ending seems to be heaped on me - when in fact the affair was a symptom of the marital problems that likely would have led to the demise of the marriage sooner rather than later. Granted, an affair was entirely the wrong thing to do, the worst possible way to handle any situation, and is 100% my own fault - but it is reflective of larger problems that have since been completely nullified in the public consciousness. Which is fine, consequences have actions and I completely accept that. But to say MW get off lightly just isn't true.

 

I don't know your particular background, but I had a bad marriage too. Frankly, I wanted out. My xW begged and pleaded and convinced me to stay. Then she started an affair and I walked away. The people around us blamed ME mostly. I heard all kinds of crap. I even had a marriage counselor suggest the OM was better in bed and thats why she was in an affair. There is this stupid societal expectation that a man keep his wife happy at all costs. That's my experience.

 

Had I been the one to cheat... I would fully expect to bear the brunt of the blame.

 

100% my experience as well.

 

Perhaps it's a perspective thing rather than an objective truth.

 

No one knew I had been a WS earlier, although everyone (friends & family) knew he cheated. Upon Divorce the marital friends divided, many went over to him, accepting his cheating. I was surprised by this, but I guess it's still socially acceptable for Males to cheat? Divorce was messy, nasty, & long. Kids came out just fine.

 

People close to a couple will choose to support the person they like more. It has nothing to do with male vs. female in this regard. The friends and family simply didn't like you as much as him. Maybe he provides some kind of benefits.

 

If it was socially acceptable for men to cheat, I would have chosen this path. It's not, so I had to be the moral one, and it did me little good. I'm left wondering just how bad it could have been had I been the one to stray.

[Southern Sun]

I've been thinking a lot about this. While I know my affair wasn't "caused" by my marriage problems...as in, I am responsible for my affair...there would be no affair without my marriage and all of the factors within. And no, I don't think I would go off and do this same thing in any marriage I might have. I think that's a fallacy. It may apply to certain types of people, with certain tendencies. But that is not the case for me and lots of people who are wayward. I do think we have to be careful, once having been wayward, of getting into a habit of poor coping mechanisms. But that is an aside.

 

I can speak in generalities about my own situation, but I think you could extrapolate it to many MW's. My H and I had years of issues, particularly intimacy issues, that I was unable to talk to him about. And it wasn't because I couldn't do the talking...it was because he couldn't HEAR me.

 

My H is passive and avoidant and very uncomfortable with difficult issues. Make it about his problems with sex and intimacy and that took it up about 100 notches. I could not talk to him about his problems, which had become OUR problems. Even more, HE chose not to deal with them on his own. Ever. Not over more than a 10 year period.

 

What do you think happens to a marriage when the man refuses to take accountability for his own sexual issues; is completely unable to hear from his wife on those issues; pretends to her as if everything is fine; and the two are unable to bond sexually for all those years? And this is while we were fairly YOUNG.

 

I completely lost romantic interest in him. We had children by then, so in my mind, we were married for life. I didn't consider anything else. But I didn't know what it felt like to have attraction or romantic interest in my H. I had forgotten those feelings long ago. I couldn't talk to him about it. He was unable to deal with it at all.

 

I felt totally backed into a corner. But I still didn't THINK of an affair. It only became an option when it was presented to me. And then all of the things I had been missing were there.

 

I suppose at the end of the day, it seemed like a far better option than divorce. I know that is a fallacy and bad logic. At the time, it didn't seem to be.

 

We hear all the time on this board - you can't say that your M problems caused your affair because your H didn't choose to deal with it in the same way!! Well, his perception of our M problems were totally different. I experienced them one way, him another. Right?

 

I am not defending myself. It was wrong. But under pressure, it seemed better at the time.

[harrybrown]

but the men get to be replaced by the OM, get to lose most of the time with their kids, lose the house, pay child support and alimony so that the wife can play house with his replacement.

 

 

rather than continue with the alimony and the pain, my friend ended it all.

 

She got what she wanted the OM, she got a new husband, the kids got a new Dad. Only the OM did not like to work and to support a family.

 

So he left. everybody wins. except the good man that supported his family until he could not take it anymore and is pushing up the grass.

 

The OM like the situation until the alimony and child support stopped.

 

Maybe he did not really love her that much to support her kids.

 

the kids did not win. they grow up thinking it is somehow their fault.

[Southwardbound]

I've been thinking a lot about this. While I know my affair wasn't "caused" by my marriage problems...as in, I am responsible for my affair...there would be no affair without my marriage and all of the factors within. And no, I don't think I would go off and do this same thing in any marriage I might have. I think that's a fallacy. It may apply to certain types of people, with certain tendencies. But that is not the case for me and lots of people who are wayward. I do think we have to be careful, once having been wayward, of getting into a habit of poor coping mechanisms. But that is an aside.

 

I can speak in generalities about my own situation, but I think you could extrapolate it to many MW's. My H and I had years of issues, particularly intimacy issues, that I was unable to talk to him about. And it wasn't because I couldn't do the talking...it was because he couldn't HEAR me.

 

My H is passive and avoidant and very uncomfortable with difficult issues. Make it about his problems with sex and intimacy and that took it up about 100 notches. I could not talk to him about his problems, which had become OUR problems. Even more, HE chose not to deal with them on his own. Ever. Not over more than a 10 year period.

 

What do you think happens to a marriage when the man refuses to take accountability for his own sexual issues; is completely unable to hear from his wife on those issues; pretends to her as if everything is fine; and the two are unable to bond sexually for all those years? And this is while we were fairly YOUNG.

 

I completely lost romantic interest in him. We had children by then, so in my mind, we were married for life. I didn't consider anything else. But I didn't know what it felt like to have attraction or romantic interest in my H. I had forgotten those feelings long ago. I couldn't talk to him about it. He was unable to deal with it at all.

 

I felt totally backed into a corner. But I still didn't THINK of an affair. It only became an option when it was presented to me. And then all of the things I had been missing were there.

 

I suppose at the end of the day, it seemed like a far better option than divorce. I know that is a fallacy and bad logic. At the time, it didn't seem to be.

 

We hear all the time on this board - you can't say that your M problems caused your affair because your H didn't choose to deal with it in the same way!! Well, his perception of our M problems were totally different. I experienced them one way, him another. Right?

 

I am not defending myself. It was wrong. But under pressure, it seemed better at the time.

 

interesting, - so the person with the lower sex drive ends up having more 'power' in the marriage. I think this happens too, in affairs.

 

Perception... one is from Mars and the other from Venus... goes back to how key having good communication is, but it also shows that even if you can express how you feel to your partner if they aren't willing to listen/ or don't think their is an issue with themselves, that doesn't mean the issue for you just disappears. I think that is why then, if the marriage as a whole is fairly decent one gives themselves permission when the opportunity arises to find that missing part they need to make themselves whole. Hence if they find that in someone who is willing to do an LTA, then they don't divorce.

 

Sometimes, even if your partner is going outside the marriage, if the marriage itself is alright other than that, you patch/ keep it intact. I totally get all those issues.

[freengreen]

Its the attitude.. not the sex of a person.

 

I would easily back a person who is in much pain rather than one who just moves on to AP after AP.

 

Yes, I agree to the fact that affair is 100% a wrong doing but if I had to chose, I would chose the more stupid person who actually fed the rubber duck with seeds in the bath tub thinking it was real .. poor ‘em ( well, hello !)

[Chica80]

I've been thinking a lot about this. While I know my affair wasn't "caused" by my marriage problems...as in, I am responsible for my affair...there would be no affair without my marriage and all of the factors within. And no, I don't think I would go off and do this same thing in any marriage I might have. I think that's a fallacy. It may apply to certain types of people, with certain tendencies. But that is not the case for me and lots of people who are wayward. I do think we have to be careful, once having been wayward, of getting into a habit of poor coping mechanisms. But that is an aside.

 

I can speak in generalities about my own situation, but I think you could extrapolate it to many MW's. My H and I had years of issues, particularly intimacy issues, that I was unable to talk to him about. And it wasn't because I couldn't do the talking...it was because he couldn't HEAR me.

 

My H is passive and avoidant and very uncomfortable with difficult issues. Make it about his problems with sex and intimacy and that took it up about 100 notches. I could not talk to him about his problems, which had become OUR problems. Even more, HE chose not to deal with them on his own. Ever. Not over more than a 10 year period.

 

What do you think happens to a marriage when the man refuses to take accountability for his own sexual issues; is completely unable to hear from his wife on those issues; pretends to her as if everything is fine; and the two are unable to bond sexually for all those years? And this is while we were fairly YOUNG.

 

I completely lost romantic interest in him. We had children by then, so in my mind, we were married for life. I didn't consider anything else. But I didn't know what it felt like to have attraction or romantic interest in my H. I had forgotten those feelings long ago. I couldn't talk to him about it. He was unable to deal with it at all.

 

I felt totally backed into a corner. But I still didn't THINK of an affair. It only became an option when it was presented to me. And then all of the things I had been missing were there.

 

I suppose at the end of the day, it seemed like a far better option than divorce. I know that is a fallacy and bad logic. At the time, it didn't seem to be.

 

We hear all the time on this board - you can't say that your M problems caused your affair because your H didn't choose to deal with it in the same way!! Well, his perception of our M problems were totally different. I experienced them one way, him another. Right?

 

I am not defending myself. It was wrong. But under pressure, it seemed better at the time.

 

Ya agree.....

 

About 3 yrs prior to my A. I told ex I was done I wanted out.

His response you can leave but you can't have the children.

 

At the time he controlled everything finances etc.

We went to counseling but things never really changed.

Divorce was not an option.....until it was.

 

I was afraid to leave, afraid my children would be taken from me. Which weren't realities but in the "world I lived in" it was....

[Birdies]

I came across an interesting study. It perhaps explains why some men are so quick to dismiss MW's near-universal analysis that while we take full responsibility for our affairs, we also recognize that they were a symptom of unhappiness in our marriages and it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

 

"There are some personality traits known to be associated with cheating. A report in The Archives of Sexual Behavior found that two traits predicted risk for infidelity in men. Men who are easily aroused (called “propensity for sexual excitation”) and men who are overly concerned about sexual performance failure are more likely to cheat. The finding comes from a study of nearly 1,000 men and women. In the sample, 23 percent of men and 19 percent of women reported ever cheating on a partner."

 

"For women, the main predictors of infidelity were relationship happiness (women who aren’t happy in their partnership are twice as likely to cheat) and being sexually out-of-sync with their partner (a situation that makes women three times as likely to cheat as women who feel sexually compatible with their partners)."

 

From the recent article "How to have a better relationship" in the New York Times. https://www.nytimes.com/guides/well/how-to-have-a-better-relationship?mc=aud_dev&mcid=keywee&mccr=dommob&kwp_0=556828&kwp_4=2005196&kwp_1=838604

 

So to summarize: in general, men cheat due to their own propensities or insecurities. In general, women cheat in response to the quality of their marriage and sex life. No wonder they dismiss our take on it - they can't relate, so it must be wrong.

Edited October 29, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
inflammatory ~T

[coolheadal]

If you cheat your a cheater! Just plain and simple.

[cocorico]

 

No one knew I had been a WS earlier, although everyone (friends & family) knew he cheated. Upon Divorce the marital friends divided, many went over to him, accepting his cheating. I was surprised by this, but I guess it's still socially acceptable for Males to cheat?

 

This was much the case for my H, too. His xW always denied her As (well, the A’s she had while M to him. The A she had with him, while M to her xH, she couldn’t really deny) though they have recently come to light. H, by contrast, never denied his A, and was always open to friends, family, colleagues, neighbours etc about our R during the A, too. When they divorced, none of “their” friends chose to unfriend us, although one couple did try to stay friends with her as well as us (but didn’t succeed - she treated them appallingly and they’re no longer friends). His infidelity simply wasn’t an issue. Was hers? Dunno. It’s more likely her personality was the issue in deciding whether they wanted to stay friends with her.

[Southwardbound]

This was much the case for my H, too. His xW always denied her As (well, the A’s she had while M to him. The A she had with him, while M to her xH, she couldn’t really deny) though they have recently come to light. H, by contrast, never denied his A, and was always open to friends, family, colleagues, neighbours etc about our R during the A, too. When they divorced, none of “their” friends chose to unfriend us, although one couple did try to stay friends with her as well as us (but didn’t succeed - she treated them appallingly and they’re no longer friends). His infidelity simply wasn’t an issue. Was hers? Dunno. It’s more likely her personality was the issue in deciding whether they wanted to stay friends with her.

 

Hmm... perhaps I should tell more of the story?

 

In my case more likely- because, I was removing the children from the country, & some of 'our friends' didn't like that, so they cold-shouldered me. They thought that part of my divorce was unfair to him, despite the circumstances and that I should have just sucked it up and stayed.

 

He also has the means to visit the children whenever he wishes, although he chooses not to, seeing them only 5 days a year, until very recently as they are now of age to get their own passport if necessary -so, I don't worry about him trying to keep them there anymore. So last year they started visiting him for the summer.

 

The main reason I moved back home with the children was to care for my mother. I gave the now ex- H, despite everything that happened over the years, the option to put the marriage back together. However, he chose not to. 'Our friends' knew all of this, plus about his A. We separated having an 'imperfect separation agreement.' Our divorce was finalized 3 years after the separation agreement. I moved out of the country in with my mother not long after the separation agreement, since that allowed me to legally do that. While he immediately moved in with his affair partner. Then he tried to integrate her in with 'our friends.' It is ironic that most of the 'our friends' who initially had gave me the cold shoulder for him, later dropped him when he tried introduced her into the circle. I chat with all but three of the 'our friends- couples' in that circle now, who stuck with him. This makes me think it had more to do with me moving out of the country with the children.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Southwardbound