Married Shmarried.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

If I'm calling someone my FRIEND, sleeping with their husband would be betrayal. That's why I'd feel bad. If it is just a woman on the street , then "oops, we just happen to like the same man..and you got to him, first.." -- I don't see that as breaking ANY vow because I'm not her friend. I just see it as it is -- 2 women are interested in the same man. *shrugs* I'm calling a spade a spade. Things are what they are. The rules humanity makes are secondary.

 

 

2 women desire the same man but because 1 got there first I'm suppose to care that she will be hurt and she's not supposed to care that I will, too?

 

It just doesn't seem fair. We all live under one sky but guess what: I saw it first and I made a commitment to it. So you must not look, lust or claim it, either. Cool.

 

Let us know if you still feel this way when your next partner cheats on you.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

Let us know if you still feel this way when your next partner cheats on you.

 

I already had this happen to me in the past.. and guess what? I built a bridge. If someone can come along & "take" anything from you, you need to move around. The cheating partner is in the wrong but the OW/OM simply went after what they wanted just like any of us do.

 

By the way -- I don't get into labeled relationships , anymore... because I disagree with the ethics."Cheating does not exist to me but lying does.

 

BTW if that is you in the pic, you have pretty eyes.

[RecentChange]

But I’m sure there are relationships and marriages not starting on that ground. Especially in the young (18-22) crowd - I’m sure most started on love-base because these people are not yet beaten up from life to seek practical commitment.

 

Yes, "LS" has certainly opened my eyes to the "beaten up from life" crowd. Honestly, I had no idea that so many people married out of desperation, or had become so terribly jaded, or struggled mightily to find a real partner in life.

 

OP I congratulate you for the fresh perspective.

 

The truth being - marriage and ‘committed’ relationships in general have NOTHING to do with love. Love is unconditional - in the very second one start thinking ‘I’d love him/her if I receive ....’ love is done. Expectation of any sort means love is over, or it has just never existed.

 

LTRs/marriages have good reasons to exist. Number one is obvious: procreation. It is immediately obvious in all statistics: people do it when they are fertile, older folks rarely bother. The ones that do: second reason: money/tax benefits/property maintenance/asset protection. Practicalities. All solid reasons, just nothing lovey in them. Third reason is religion....

 

The only other reason left, which usually leads to LTRs (rarely the ring-or-else threats aka forced marriage) is fear. Fear of being alone. This happens to people that just don’t know what to do with their time and need someone to chaperone them, the more the better. Nothing wrong with that per se - but since there is need involved - there is no love.

 

I personally had to waste 5 relationshipy years with 3 dudes to realize that - something I just suppressed, but knew throughout. Will I get in another LTR or even marry? Yep, for children. I’ll do it with a clear mindset it is not ‘lovey’ nonsense but a stage of life done with a purpose. This will make it palatable and maybe enjoyable .

 

My husband and I got together at 22 and 24. Always knew we didn't want kids. We are together because we love each other and choose to be together. Not for financial reasons, not for children. We are atheist so it certainly wasn't religion either.

 

The majority of my friends (and my siblings) are like me. Atheists / agnostics, found their partners while in college- waited many years to have children if at all - to me at least they appear to be love marriages as well. Not because of fear, or financial, or societal pressure, some are child free by choice, so it wasn't that either.

 

My dad and step mom married in their 40's. Both done having kids, both independent, home owners, both with very full social lives (no fear of being alone) etc. They didn't marry for any other reason than the fact that they love each other, wanted to show their commitment to each other, and share the rest of their lives together.

 

As for Unconditional love. I have NEVER bought into this. My love is not unconditional, nor would I ever expect someone to have unconditional love for me. I do not understand "unconditional love" in the same that I do not understand unrequited love.

 

I can not love someone who does not show me love. I can not love someone who abuses me. Love is an action. It is a give and take. And in a long term relationship, love will need tending.

 

I did not marry for unconditional love - I married because I am in love. And have made a commitment to tend to, to foster, to grow our love.

 

Edited to add....

 

As for the OP. I agree, each couple should make their own arrangement and definitions. No cheating just lying is a good one if that works for you and your partner. Levels of expected commitment should be discussed as well. My partner and I aren't completely conventional despite the title of Mr. and Mrs. Titles do not define your relationship, the people in the relationship do.

Edited November 28, 2017 by RecentChange

[lana-banana]

2 women desire the same man but because 1 got there first I'm suppose to care that she will be hurt and she's not supposed to care that I will, too?

 

It just doesn't seem fair. We all live under one sky but guess what: I saw it first and I made a commitment to it. So you must not look, lust or claim it, either. Cool.

 

Based on the above, can we at least all openly acknowledge that this perspective has nothing to do with "logic"? Your feelings are hurt and something doesn't seem fair. That's perfectly valid. But it doesn't make the institution of marriage null and void.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

I unconditionally love people. It's like being a martyr but you have to be emotionally tough.

 

This means loving someone in spite of every flaw. In order to do this, you can't have boundaries. I think it is a beautiful thing to be honest. hehe

[xoswtdreamsxo]

Based on the above, can we at least all openly acknowledge that this perspective has nothing to do with "logic"? Your feelings are hurt and something doesn't seem fair. That's perfectly valid. But it doesn't make the institution of marriage null and void.

 

Wrong. Fair as in it is a double standard..not "crybaby, it's not fair." The only reason I brought feelings into it is because the person I quoted suggested I should feel bad about hurting a stranger. So, I was saying, why should I feel bad about dating a stranger's husband if we simply like the same man ?

 

You expect someone to feel bad because you got the guy first ... That was the point. You can't ask a woman who has 0 obligation to you to "feel bad" over you wanting a dude if she can't reciprocate.

 

"I love him, too.",

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I already had this happen to me in the past.. and guess what? I built a bridge. If someone can come along & "take" anything from you, you need to move around. The cheating partner is in the wrong but the OW/OM simply went after what they wanted just like any of us do.

 

By the way -- I don't get into labeled relationships , anymore... because I disagree with the ethics."Cheating does not exist to me but lying does.

 

BTW if that is you in the pic, you have pretty eyes.

 

Thank you.

 

Saying cheating "doesn't exist to you" makes no sense. We all live on planet earth and cheating IS a thing. It's similar to folks to say "Donald Trump is not my president." Sorry, but he is. You can refuse to honor the existence of these things, but saying they don't "exist," even just to you, isn't a thing.

 

If you can prove me wrong, please do so because I'd love to figure out a way, legaly, to have my ex-husband not exist "to me."

[RecentChange]

I unconditionally love people. It's like being a martyr but you have to be emotionally tough.

 

This means loving someone in spite of every flaw. In order to do this, you can't have boundaries. I think it is a beautiful thing to be honest. hehe

 

Does this include not having boundaries regarding how people treat you?

 

I don't understand loving someone who disrespects me. Loving someone who abuses me. Loving someone who has no love for me.

 

For me, I feel like the only person I have unconditional love for, is myself.

 

And that means I will not allow myself to be treated poorly "because I love him". I won't give people who do not deserve it the power to hurt me "because I love them".

 

I love only those who I can trust with that gift. My love is the most precious thing I have, the most valuable gift of all.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

Thank you.

 

Saying cheating "doesn't exist to you" makes no sense. We all live on planet earth and cheating IS a thing. It's similar to folks to say "Donald Trump is not my president." Sorry, but he is. You can refuse to honor the existence of these things, but saying they don't "exist," even just to you, isn't a thing.

 

If you can prove me wrong, please do so because I'd love to figure out a way, legaly, to have my ex-husband not exist "to me."

 

I tried to edit and reword my sentence...but it was too late. What I meant was "cheating" doesn't exist in my world because I don't date in the first place. I also don't think it should exist at all because humans should just be allowed to enjoy each other without all the labels..but do you.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I tried to edit and reword my sentence...but it was too lat. What I meant was "cheating" doesn't exist in my world because I don't date in the first place. I also don't think it should exist at all because humans should just be allowed to enjoy each other without all the labels..but do you.

 

There are people who live their lives this way if it suits them. Are you saying everyone should live their lives this way?

[No_Go]

Yes, I would have broken up with my husband if our relationship goals didn't match. Marriage and kids are some of the very few issues where compromise really isn't possible. As much as I love him, if one of us had been against marriage and the other had been for it we would have split up. I couldn't stay with someone whose vision for the future was drastically different than mine. We have the same goals; that's why we're on this road together.

 

Family and partners literally cannot be the same. Your partner is family you choose, and part of that choice means picking someone who will hopefully share a harmonious future with you.

 

I don’t disagree with you marriage and even more so kids are not points on which one should compromise.

 

I just wanted to draw the distinction formal relationship vs love. Even if for some reason I would need to part ways with someone I truly love - my love won’t change a notch.

 

I have had people that I loved unconditionally. For some the Love was romantic, for others (like relatives) - not. With some I lost contact, some died, some just took a path I cannot participate in. All these people are still near and dear to my heart and will always be, regardless of the ending or morphing of the formal relationship.

 

Anyway, I guess the issue is in the definitions. [same for family: you don’t choose to coexist with your blood family, but whether you love them or not has nothing to do with it. Love is not bound by the formality of ones relationship, being parental or romantic or whatever. JMO]

Edited November 28, 2017 by No_Go

[xoswtdreamsxo]

Does this include not having boundaries regarding how people treat you?

 

I don't understand loving someone who disrespects me. Loving someone who abuses me. Loving someone who has no love for me.

 

For me, I feel like the only person I have unconditional love for, is myself.

 

And that means I will not allow myself to be treated poorly "because I love him". I won't give people who do not deserve it the power to hurt me "because I love them".

 

I love only those who I can trust with that gift. My love is the most precious thing I have, the most valuable gift of all.

 

If I'm in love with a man who abuses me, I will move away from him but I can still love him in spite of. If he absolutely has 0 traits to live, well then there's no love to work with.

 

I've danced with many werewolves. Imagine someone who will except you for the darkest parts of your mind you've never even told anyone about...all of the things you do in private that you'd never want anyone to see..

 

I think it's beautiful. I guess it is preference.. And after all..love is a subjective thing. So who am I to say?

[No_Go]

Staying with him or leaving him is a choice. Love is not. You can continue loving someone unconditionally even if you parted ways for good. Best example: death.

If a loved one dies your love to them doesn’t.

 

Does this include not having boundaries regarding how people treat you?

 

I don't understand loving someone who disrespects me. Loving someone who abuses me. Loving someone who has no love for me.

 

For me, I feel like the only person I have unconditional love for, is myself.

 

And that means I will not allow myself to be treated poorly "because I love him". I won't give people who do not deserve it the power to hurt me "because I love them".

 

I love only those who I can trust with that gift. My love is the most precious thing I have, the most valuable gift of all.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

There are people who live their lives this way if it suits them. Are you saying everyone should live their lives this way?

 

I think it is wrong but I don't care how you live your lives, much. You should live according to what makes you happy..after all, you're gonna go back to dust, naked and alone.

 

I just think the judgments are a bit much, given the circumstances.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

If I'm in love with a man who abuses me, I will move away from him but I can still love him in spite of. If he absolutely has 0 traits to live, well then there's no love to work with.

 

I've danced with many werewolves. Imagine someone who will except you for the darkest parts of your mind you've never even told anyone about...all of the things you do in private that you'd never want anyone to see..

 

I think it's beautiful. I guess it is preference.. And after all..love is a subjective thing. So who am I to say?

 

Haha btw I meant *accept*

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

I think it is wrong but I don't care how you live your lives, much. You should live according to what makes you happy..after all, you're gonna go back to dust, naked and alone.

 

I just think the judgments are a bit much, given the circumstances.

 

What judgments? What circumstances?

[thefooloftheyear]

I don’t disagree with you marriage and even more so kids are not points on which one should compromise.

 

I just wanted to draw the distinction formal relationship vs love. Even if for some reason I would need to part ways with someone I truly love - my love won’t change a notch.

 

I have had people that I loved unconditionally. For some the Love was romantic, for others (like relatives) - not. With some I lost contact, some died, some just took a path I cannot participate in. All these people are still near and dear to my heart and will always be, regardless of the ending or morphing of the formal relationship.

Anyway, I guess the issue is in the definitions.

 

Valid points, but tbh, most people really don't operate the same way...For most people, those folks that come in and out of our lives, maybe some of them leave memories that may be fond. but at the end of the day, they were strangers before they met us, so they just become "strangers we used to know"....

 

Kids and some relatives(in my case my mother) are different....I see myself in my daughter ...She looks and acts like me(too bad, world..) and she will never be just a random person that comes into my life...The "threshold of not caring/loving" would be absolutely enormous...and unthinkable...Same for my dog...

 

TFY

[RecentChange]

If I'm in love with a man who abuses me, I will move away from him but I can still love him in spite of. If he absolutely has 0 traits to live, well then there's no love to work with.

 

Staying with him or leaving him is a choice. Love is not. You can continue loving someone unconditionally even if you parted ways for good. Best example: death.

If a loved one dies your love to them doesn’t.

 

So this "love" that both of you describe. I take it, its a feeling and not an action?

 

If a man who abused you, and said terrible things to you, hurt you beyond repair -you would move away from him, but "still love him"?

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

 

I've danced with many werewolves. Imagine someone who will except you for the darkest parts of your mind you've never even told anyone about...all of the things you do in private that you'd never want anyone to see..

 

I think it's beautiful. I guess it is preference.. And after all..love is a subjective thing. So who am I to say?

 

Oh honey, I don't have to imagine. I have someone who I have been deeply in love with for 16 years. He knows my darkest, and I know his. We have said the things that we were so scared to reveal to another human. We know, and accept things about each other that no one else on this planet knows. Again.... 16 years and we are still revealing things to each other. There are still those dark corners that we don't even want to see ourselves - but with the love and support we have for each other, the TRUST we have in each other, the COMMITMENT we have to each other.... allows us to let it out.

 

So yes, that part is beautiful. That we can be free to share these things with each other without fear that we wouldn't still be loved. Our vulnerability to each other deepens our commitment and love.

 

Doesn't mean that he could abuse me, and that I would still love him. Doesn't mean I could abuse him and still expect to be loved.

 

To me love is not only a feeling, but an ACTION. Loving someone from afar, from inside your brain with no action.... what does that count for? Who does that benefit? Why hold onto that love?

 

Someone said love is not a choice. I disagree. We can choose to love, or not love, at least I can.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

What judgments? What circumstances?

 

So many people call MM & MW "no good" because they cheat on their spouses but in such a world, the judgments are a bit much.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

So this "love" that both of you describe. I take it, its a feeling and not an action?

 

If a man who abused you, and said terrible things to you, hurt you beyond repair -you would move away from him, but "still love him"?

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

 

 

 

Oh honey, I don't have to imagine. I have someone who I have been deeply in love with for 16 years. He knows my darkest, and I know his. We have said the things that we were so scared to reveal to another human. We know, and accept things about each other that no one else on this planet knows. Again.... 16 years and we are still revealing things to each other. There are still those dark corners that we don't even want to see ourselves - but with the love and support we have for each other, the TRUST we have in each other, the COMMITMENT we have to each other.... allows us to let it out.

 

So yes, that part is beautiful. That we can be free to share these things with each other without fear that we wouldn't still be loved. Our vulnerability to each other deepens our commitment and love.

 

Doesn't mean that he could abuse me, and that I would still love him. Doesn't mean I could abuse him and still expect to be loved.

 

To me love is not only a feeling, but an ACTION. Loving someone from afar, from inside your brain with no action.... what does that count for? Who does that benefit? Why hold onto that love?

 

Someone said love is not a choice. I disagree. We can choose to love, or not love, at least I can.

 

Love is unconditional but I do prefer not to debate something that is so subjective because we all are right in such a case. Even if I thought love was abuse, you can't tell me it is not because masochists exist and love is subjective just as good & evil are.

 

They are not universal and thus cannot be taught universally. So I can't tell you I know what love is for you but I know what it means to me..and congratulations on your relationship ...that is rare.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

..and congratulations on your relationship ...that is rare.

 

RC's relationship=my relationship goals

[RecentChange]

RC's relationship=my relationship goals

 

But the thing is..... for many, its not. Our relationship isn't for everyone. We aren't totally conventional, and the path to this pointed was twisting.

 

He cheated, I cheated (royally).

 

But for US, we worked through it. We understood each other. The hows and the whys, and came to a greater understanding, and middle ground on what works for us.

 

I will admit, We literally have friends who have pointed to us and declared "relationship goals" - and I have thought - oh honey, if you only knew.

 

In that, yes, I agree, our closeness, our gumption, our commitment to loving each other is note worthy. But the "unconventional" side of us, the things that most do not know nor would expect - I am not sure that its something that the majority would want to sign up for.

[No_Go]

Valid points, but tbh, most people really don't operate the same way...For most people, those folks that come in and out of our lives, maybe some of them leave memories that may be fond. but at the end of the day, they were strangers before they met us, so they just become "strangers we used to know"....

 

Kids and some relatives(in my case my mother) are different....I see myself in my daughter ...She looks and acts like me(too bad, world..) and she will never be just a random person that comes into my life...The "threshold of not caring/loving" would be absolutely enormous...and unthinkable...Same for my dog...

 

TFY

 

Ooh dog (pet) love is such a sweet an example for unconditional love, both directions:)

[No_Go]

So this "love" that both of you describe. I take it, its a feeling and not an action?

 

If a man who abused you, and said terrible things to you, hurt you beyond repair -you would move away from him, but "still love him"?

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

...

 

To me love is not only a feeling, but an ACTION. Loving someone from afar, from inside your brain with no action.... what does that count for? Who does that benefit? Why hold onto that love?

 

Someone said love is not a choice. I disagree. We can choose to love, or not love, at least I can.

 

I think here is where we grandly differ. I don't think love is an action. Action could be a manifestation of love, but love is a pure emotion and therefore - something that can't be controlled (like action could be). Btw I've had endless amounts of arguments with my last ex about this - he'll always say - love is an action, love without action is not love (where is this coming from? I am pretty sure it's not a personal believe of his but some school of thought?)

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

On your question - yes, I will. I've done it for two people. I'm not saying these were smart decisions retrospecting back on them, but I've done it.

 

1) A guy that I was madly in love with but never reciprocated in 'romantic' way. At a certain point he found a GF who he later married. I was heartbroken - he never abused me but did mislead me for a long time. Anyway, she was living in a different country. Nobody at work (we were coworkers) knew except me, and I agreed to cover him up when he was going to visit her. This involved twisting information (I'm not proud of this ) that he's on 'business trip', and sacrificing my personal time to cover up as much as I could from his work.

 

2) A guy that actually abused me (physically). We were lovers but broke up after the abusive episodes. He had to leave his home for 6 months. He had a cat and left keys to a caregiver to feed her. The caregiver got fed up with him and left, and he called me to pick the keys and go take care of the cat and the apartment instead of her. I did. It ended badly afterwards, but I still think I did the right thing, to an extent (I forgot to protect myself from him so later he stalked me. Bad times).

[RecentChange]

No Go, we have to agree to disagree again.

 

I would help the cat, like children they are innocent.

 

The rest? No way, I wouldn't love someone who didn't love me, and I wouldn't compromise myself for someone who didn't love me. I would find it disrespectful to myself. I won't be a doormat, and this "unconditional love" seems to invite being used.

 

Now for my husband who I love and loves me? I will do all sorts of things not in myself interest.

 

I believe I can control my emotions to an extent, and that includes love. And I believe what your ex does. For me, love without action isn't anything really, except for a figment of your imagination.

 

If someone says that they love me, and do not SHOW that love in anyway, I can't say I feel loved.