Married Shmarried.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

So this "love" that both of you describe. I take it, its a feeling and not an action?

 

If a man who abused you, and said terrible things to you, hurt you beyond repair -you would move away from him, but "still love him"?

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

 

 

 

Oh honey, I don't have to imagine. I have someone who I have been deeply in love with for 16 years. He knows my darkest, and I know his. We have said the things that we were so scared to reveal to another human. We know, and accept things about each other that no one else on this planet knows. Again.... 16 years and we are still revealing things to each other. There are still those dark corners that we don't even want to see ourselves - but with the love and support we have for each other, the TRUST we have in each other, the COMMITMENT we have to each other.... allows us to let it out.

 

So yes, that part is beautiful. That we can be free to share these things with each other without fear that we wouldn't still be loved. Our vulnerability to each other deepens our commitment and love.

 

Doesn't mean that he could abuse me, and that I would still love him. Doesn't mean I could abuse him and still expect to be loved.

 

To me love is not only a feeling, but an ACTION. Loving someone from afar, from inside your brain with no action.... what does that count for? Who does that benefit? Why hold onto that love?

 

Someone said love is not a choice. I disagree. We can choose to love, or not love, at least I can.

 

Love is unconditional but I do prefer not to debate something that is so subjective because we all are right in such a case. Even if I thought love was abuse, you can't tell me it is not because masochists exist and love is subjective just as good & evil are.

 

They are not universal and thus cannot be taught universally. So I can't tell you I know what love is for you but I know what it means to me..and congratulations on your relationship ...that is rare.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

..and congratulations on your relationship ...that is rare.

 

RC's relationship=my relationship goals

[RecentChange]

RC's relationship=my relationship goals

 

But the thing is..... for many, its not. Our relationship isn't for everyone. We aren't totally conventional, and the path to this pointed was twisting.

 

He cheated, I cheated (royally).

 

But for US, we worked through it. We understood each other. The hows and the whys, and came to a greater understanding, and middle ground on what works for us.

 

I will admit, We literally have friends who have pointed to us and declared "relationship goals" - and I have thought - oh honey, if you only knew.

 

In that, yes, I agree, our closeness, our gumption, our commitment to loving each other is note worthy. But the "unconventional" side of us, the things that most do not know nor would expect - I am not sure that its something that the majority would want to sign up for.

[No_Go]

Valid points, but tbh, most people really don't operate the same way...For most people, those folks that come in and out of our lives, maybe some of them leave memories that may be fond. but at the end of the day, they were strangers before they met us, so they just become "strangers we used to know"....

 

Kids and some relatives(in my case my mother) are different....I see myself in my daughter ...She looks and acts like me(too bad, world..) and she will never be just a random person that comes into my life...The "threshold of not caring/loving" would be absolutely enormous...and unthinkable...Same for my dog...

 

TFY

 

Ooh dog (pet) love is such a sweet an example for unconditional love, both directions:)

[No_Go]

So this "love" that both of you describe. I take it, its a feeling and not an action?

 

If a man who abused you, and said terrible things to you, hurt you beyond repair -you would move away from him, but "still love him"?

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

...

 

To me love is not only a feeling, but an ACTION. Loving someone from afar, from inside your brain with no action.... what does that count for? Who does that benefit? Why hold onto that love?

 

Someone said love is not a choice. I disagree. We can choose to love, or not love, at least I can.

 

I think here is where we grandly differ. I don't think love is an action. Action could be a manifestation of love, but love is a pure emotion and therefore - something that can't be controlled (like action could be). Btw I've had endless amounts of arguments with my last ex about this - he'll always say - love is an action, love without action is not love (where is this coming from? I am pretty sure it's not a personal believe of his but some school of thought?)

 

If he called and said he needed your help - would you drop everything and help him? Would you sacrifice your own safety, comfort etc to make his life better? Is that what someone would do when they love another?

 

On your question - yes, I will. I've done it for two people. I'm not saying these were smart decisions retrospecting back on them, but I've done it.

 

1) A guy that I was madly in love with but never reciprocated in 'romantic' way. At a certain point he found a GF who he later married. I was heartbroken - he never abused me but did mislead me for a long time. Anyway, she was living in a different country. Nobody at work (we were coworkers) knew except me, and I agreed to cover him up when he was going to visit her. This involved twisting information (I'm not proud of this ) that he's on 'business trip', and sacrificing my personal time to cover up as much as I could from his work.

 

2) A guy that actually abused me (physically). We were lovers but broke up after the abusive episodes. He had to leave his home for 6 months. He had a cat and left keys to a caregiver to feed her. The caregiver got fed up with him and left, and he called me to pick the keys and go take care of the cat and the apartment instead of her. I did. It ended badly afterwards, but I still think I did the right thing, to an extent (I forgot to protect myself from him so later he stalked me. Bad times).

[RecentChange]

No Go, we have to agree to disagree again.

 

I would help the cat, like children they are innocent.

 

The rest? No way, I wouldn't love someone who didn't love me, and I wouldn't compromise myself for someone who didn't love me. I would find it disrespectful to myself. I won't be a doormat, and this "unconditional love" seems to invite being used.

 

Now for my husband who I love and loves me? I will do all sorts of things not in myself interest.

 

I believe I can control my emotions to an extent, and that includes love. And I believe what your ex does. For me, love without action isn't anything really, except for a figment of your imagination.

 

If someone says that they love me, and do not SHOW that love in anyway, I can't say I feel loved.

[No_Go]

No Go, we have to agree to disagree again.

 

I would help the cat, like children they are innocent.

 

The rest? No way, I wouldn't love someone who didn't love me, and I wouldn't compromise myself for someone who didn't love me. I would find it disrespectful to myself. I won't be a doormat, and this "unconditional love" seems to invite being used.

 

Now for my husband who I love and loves me? I will do all sorts of things not in myself interest.

 

I believe I can control my emotions to an extent, and that includes love. And I believe what your ex does. For me, love without action isn't anything really, except for a figment of your imagination.

 

If someone says that they love me, and do not SHOW that love in anyway, I can't say I feel loved.

 

a figment of your imagination Ah, if you were single I'd introduce you to my ex He had exactly the same belief.

 

For me: this 'imaginary' part of love is what I enjoy most - it physically changes me, it is so weird - I can live on 3-4 hours of sleep without being tired when I got into such an emotion (my regular is 8-9 hours). I become more empathetic, more creative - all around positives even without the other person being aware of my love to them, I'm not even talking about relationship. I guess to some extent it is also selfish - because the emotion that I experience brings me so much positives (even with zero participation of the other party).

 

Also - actions don't really bond me at all. My ex will tell me - he'd bond with friends over shared experiences. For me... it is more like having an experience in presence of someone else. Having good time, fun, laugh, even sex - for whatever reason do not help me build a bond with someone. I guess some people may relate to this, many won't.

 

I've never felt like a doormat if performing actions of love for someone that don't reciprocate because I'd do them by choice. The guy 1) fro my other post was probably not even aware for many of my actions, I'd keep as much as I could to myself.

 

I believe I can control my emotions to an extent, and that includes love. Lucky you! The only thing I can control is the manifestation of the emotions like actions or words.

Edited November 28, 2017 by No_Go

[RecentChange]

I believe I can control my emotions to an extent, and that includes love. Lucky you! The only thing I can control is the manifestation of the emotions like actions or words.

 

Really? You can't influence, change or control feelings like anger? Or anxiety? Or even joy?

 

Perhaps I can't make them appear or disappear, but I can talk myself down from anger. I can use breathing and visuals to control anxiety. I can count my blessings and focus on the beauty of nature to increase my joy.

 

And I don't allow myself to fall in love with someone who doesn't love me. I stop my mind when it drifts off to that fantasy land. I do not allow myself to become infatuated with someone that does not value me equally.

 

And back to the OP's topic.

 

For me - LOVE is what defines my relationship. Not possession, or even sexual fidelity. It's the love, and that commitment to that love that we share and binds us.

 

I don't get my joy from the emotion of love - but from the action of love. Seeing how my love for him influences him. Seeing how my love makes his day brighter. How my love can comfort and support. How my love can help him love himself.

 

It's the benefit of the action of my love in his life that warms my heart - not the emotion trapped in my head.

Edited November 28, 2017 by RecentChange

[NuevoYorko]

Some very avid and determined rationalization demonstrated here. I’m not quite getting the point, but it’s reminiscent of the “revelations” of my adolescent pot smoking self ?

[No_Go]

You can't influence, change or control feelings like anger? Or anxiety? Or even joy? Not really. I've tried to but I always feel like I'm misleading myself. I can control my actions pretty well though and I guess that's what matter for the outside world. I can be fuming from the inside - if people see me 'calm' - they think I am good at controlling anger

 

On OP's topic of love - I don't think she argued love don't exist - more that marriage/commitment doesn't need to be related to love and vice versa. RC - great for you that you see both coinciding, which actually makes sense considering you perceive love as action.

 

Really? You can't influence, change or control feelings like anger? Or anxiety? Or even joy?

 

Perhaps I can't make them appear or disappear, but I can talk myself down from anger. I can use breathing and visuals to control anxiety. I can count my blessings and focus on the beauty of nature to increase my joy.

 

And I don't allow myself to fall in love with someone who doesn't love me. I stop my mind when it drifts off to that fantasy land. I do not allow myself to become infatuated with someone that does not value me equally.

 

And back to the OP's topic.

 

For me - LOVE is what defines my relationship. Not possession, or even sexual fidelity. It's the love, and that commitment to that love that we share and binds us.

 

I don't get my joy from the emotion of love - but from the action of love. Seeing how my love for him influences him. Seeing how my love makes his day brighter. How my love can comfort and support. How my love can help him love himself.

 

It's the benefit of the action of my love in his life that warms my heart - not the emotion trapped in my head.

[No_Go]

Some very avid and determined rationalization demonstrated here. I’m not quite getting the point, but it’s reminiscent of the “revelations” of my adolescent pot smoking self ��

 

:lmao: I always tell people I never tried pot because I don't really need external chemicals since my mind/emotions brings me to certain heights anyway. They don't believe me but here is the evidence in your words.

[DKT3]

I wrote out a long post, then thought what's the point? It's like going to Starbucks and overhearing some 20 something who truly believes they have the key to the universe but is really too arrogant to realize just how foolish others view them.

 

Funny thing, very intelligent people once thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe.very sure, very arrogant to to foolish to listen to those who knew better.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

I wrote out a long post, then thought what's the point? It's like going to Starbucks and overhearing some 20 something who truly believes they have the key to the universe but is really too arrogant to realize just how foolish others view them.

 

Funny thing, very intelligent people once thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe.very sure, very arrogant to to foolish to listen to those who knew better.

 

Says the genius who is using ad-hominems. If you can't have a proper discussion without resorting to baseless remarks about my personal character, respectfully do not engage. It makes you appear weak-minded. By the way, I don't claim to have the key to the universe. I only think romantic ethics are irrational & harmful to the psyche. You do realize there are other compartments of life besides, romance, right?

 

So, I don't really mind who or what "disagrees" with me. I mean, good for you...and I'm glad you think your age has anything to do with smarts. You clearly demonstrated that age means nothing when it comes to maturity or anything of the sort.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

Says the genius who is using ad-hominems. If you can't have a proper discussion without resorting to baseless remarks about my personal character, respectfully do not engage. It makes you appear weak-minded. By the way, I don't claim to have the key to the universe. I only think romantic ethics are irrational & harmful to the psyche. You do realize there are other compartments of life besides, romance, right?

 

So, I don't really mind who or what "disagrees" with me. I mean, good for you...and I'm glad you think your age has anything to do with smarts. You clearly demonstrated that age means nothing when it comes to maturity or anything of the sort.

 

If the world insisted to me the grass was purple, am I an arrogant fool because I don't bend to their ways of thinking? I'm not sure what your point that "everyone views me as a fool" was nor am I sure what you thought that was supposed to do for me. I am not a weak-minded person who follows or needs a crowd, so that doesn't phase me. If you disagree with me, that's fine. What I do find interesting is how you, instead of contributing something solid to the debate you took the energy to try to insult me.

 

It reminds me of kind of folks who never pop up to speak except for when they want to address drama.

[MuddyFootprints]

Or call out the drama queens.

[DKT3]

Says the genius who is using ad-hominems. If you can't have a proper discussion without resorting to baseless remarks about my personal character, respectfully do not engage. It makes you appear weak-minded. By the way, I don't claim to have the key to the universe. I only think romantic ethics are irrational & harmful to the psyche. You do realize there are other compartments of life besides, romance, right?

 

So, I don't really mind who or what "disagrees" with me. I mean, good for you...and I'm glad you think your age has anything to do with smarts. You clearly demonstrated that age means nothing when it comes to maturity or anything of the sort.

 

So, you speaking in absolutes about something you personally have not experienced makes you an expert, how?

 

Look I could go out and rob a guy standing on the street and make a viable intellectual argument as to why it was the right thing to do and insist that my view is correct. Even if that argument is valid, does that mean that everyone should agree.

 

With age comes wisdom, and experience. Doesn't mean that age makes one smart. On the flip side being smart without wisdom means jack$h!t. Cue any scene from Rainman.

 

Yes, I said your view and stance is arrogant and foolish. You know why? Because it is. You have no clue what goes on in any Marriage outside of one you are involved in, so you have no clue what those Marriages are based on, or why infidelity has impacted it or why they have an issue with it. Possessiveness and jealousy can be a part of it. Or maybe it's because said partner doesn't really care for the idea of they partner introducing potential"issues" ie STD, bunny boilers, risking childhoods.

 

Lastly, unconditional love doesn't exist, outside of mothers.

[xoswtdreamsxo]

So, you speaking in absolutes about something you personally have not experienced makes you an expert, how?

 

Look I could go out and rob a guy standing on the street and make a viable intellectual argument as to why it was the right thing to do and insist that my view is correct. Even if that argument is valid, does that mean that everyone should agree.

 

With age comes wisdom, and experience. Doesn't mean that age makes one smart. On the flip side being smart without wisdom means jack$h!t. Cue any scene from Rainman.

 

Yes, I said your view and stance is arrogant and foolish. You know why? Because it is. You have no clue what goes on in any Marriage outside of one you are involved in, so you have no clue what those Marriages are based on, or why infidelity has impacted it or why they have an issue with it. Possessiveness and jealousy can be a part of it. Or maybe it's because said partner doesn't really care for the idea of they partner introducing potential"issues" ie STD, bunny boilers, risking childhoods.

 

Lastly, unconditional love doesn't exist, outside of mothers.

 

You used the word 'expert' not me. Everyone says things in absolutes and with certainty. It would become redundant to say 'IMO, IMO, IMO, etc... For example: You say, "unconditional love doesn't exist outside mothers." -- That is your view and I will not assume you think you are an expert or are arrogant because of that..I think it's WRONG...but I won't call you arrogant because you claim this and that. ..

 

. and I don't believe you can make an intellectual argument for anything because another side to logic, is efficiency. So things such as murder would be systematically wrong because it would disturb the way the world, operates. The same goes for marriages that have children involved. Sometimes things are more about a system that works than it is about ethics.

 

I'm not attacking all marriages but the ones that are based on romantic ethics are illogical and unrealistic to me. I don't care what you think is foolish. If you think what I said is foolish, it isn't for you. It's as simple as that.

 

Your arguments do not convince me any. With age can come wisdom but there are a lot of foolish adults who think they're wise simply because they're of an older age Young people can be wise too by learning from other's mistakes. Young folks who have gone through a lot can wise up super fast.

 

This topic went from romantic ethics/marriage to calling ME arrogant. That is an ad-hominem. Disagree with my idea of things but stick to the idea. You don't know me well enough to render such a judgment, yet you wanna talk about 'wisdom'.' I guess....

Edited November 29, 2017 by xoswtdreamsxo

[Steve Mason]

The way I see it, love is different from marriage. Love can be unconditional, but all relationships, including marriages, have certain social rules. Cheating is called cheating because the cheater breaks the rules. Again all relationships have rules. If you live in a society with people, there will be rules.

 

So you can love someone unconditionally, and marry them, they can break the rules, you can end the marriage, and still love them unconditionally. You just wouldn’t want to be married to them anymore.

[DKT3]

You used the word 'expert' not me. Everyone says things in absolutes and with certainty. It would become redundant to say 'IMO, IMO, IMO, etc... For example: You say, "unconditional love doesn't exist outside mothers." -- That is your view and I will not assume you think you are an expert or are arrogant because of that..I think it's WRONG...but I won't call you arrogant because you claim this and that. ..

 

. and I don't believe you can make an intellectual argument for anything because another side to logic, is efficiency. So things such as murder would be systematically wrong because it would disturb the way the world, operates. The same goes for marriages that have children involved. Sometimes things are more about a system that works than it is about ethics.

 

I'm not attacking all marriages but the ones that are based on romantic ethics are illogical and unrealistic to me. I don't care what you think is foolish. If you think what I said is foolish, it isn't for you. It's as simple as that.

 

Your arguments do not convince me any. With age can come wisdom but there are a lot of foolish adults who think they're wise simply because they're of an older age Young people can be wise too by learning from other's mistakes. Young folks who have gone through a lot can wise up super fast.

 

This topic went from romantic ethics/marriage to calling ME arrogant. That is an ad-hominem. Disagree with my idea of things but stick to the idea. You don't know me well enough to render such a judgment, yet you wanna talk about 'wisdom'.' I guess....

 

I said your view and stance is arrogant and foolish, not you.

 

You don't really learn from others experiences, more of learning what did or didn't work for that person in that situation. You didn't experience the event, nor can you feel the feelings.

 

Common sense tells you unconditional love is a myth. Truth is someone you love more than anything can do things that can turn your feelings toward them, be it mother, father, son or daughter. If love was unconditional that wouldn't be possible

 

I'm done here, as I mentioned before, it's like debating the Earth is round having sailed it with someone who hasn't left the area in which they were born.

[nospam99]

Late to the game and probably missed lots of details because most of this thread has been debates and rants about personal values.

 

But trying to understand one or two things so asking .... OP, I just went back and read a few of your first posts. Am I correct that you have been the OW BUT have not slept with the MM? If yes, my understanding of the jargon on LS is that would be labeled an Emotional Affair. Again to the OP, to what extent do you understand that in some people's value systems (mine included) a Sexual Affair is a greater betrayal (and a cheat by definition) than an Emotional Affair? I will point out that for me, the reason for this value is the risk of introducing a disease/infection into the marriage. Just sayin'

[elaine567]

Late to the game and probably missed lots of details because most of this thread has been debates and rants about personal values.

 

But trying to understand one or two things so asking .... OP, I just went back and read a few of your first posts. Am I correct that you have been the OW BUT have not slept with the MM? If yes, my understanding of the jargon on LS is that would be labeled an Emotional Affair. Again to the OP, to what extent do you understand that in some people's value systems (mine included) a Sexual Affair is a greater betrayal (and a cheat by definition) than an Emotional Affair? I will point out that for me, the reason for this value is the risk of introducing a disease/infection into the marriage. Just sayin'

 

OK but the OP has not clarified the extent of the physicality of her affairs, only that she has not "slept with" her MMen.

I guess not many "public figures" are keeping OWs around for a homely chat...

[clia]

If I'm calling someone my FRIEND, sleeping with their husband would be betrayal. That's why I'd feel bad. If it is just a woman on the street , then "oops, we just happen to like the same man..and you got to him, first.." -- I don't see that as breaking ANY vow because I'm not her friend. I just see it as it is -- 2 women are interested in the same man. *shrugs* I'm calling a spade a spade. Things are what they are. The rules humanity makes are secondary.

 

Why is it okay to label a "friend," but not a romantic relationship? What's the difference? Why is it okay to "betray" in a romantic relationship, but not a friendship relationship under your views? How is the situation with a friend any different than your friend being the one who is saying "I saw it first and it's mine"? It just seems circular. If you are against labeling relationships, and everyone should be able to have a free for all and be with whoever they want, shouldn't that include friendships as well?

 

You use the term "romantic ethics." What, specifically, do you view as the romantic ethics that you are so against? (It's just not clear to me from your posts above -- jealousy? possessiveness? commitment? other things?)

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

 

I'm not attacking all marriages but the ones that are based on romantic ethics are illogical and unrealistic to me.

 

Define "romantic ethics." What does this even mean?

[wmacbride]

Why is it okay to label a "friend," but not a romantic relationship? What's the difference? Why is it okay to "betray" in a romantic relationship, but not a friendship relationship under your views? How is the situation with a friend any different than your friend being the one who is saying "I saw it first and it's mine"? It just seems circular. If you are against labeling relationships, and everyone should be able to have a free for all and be with whoever they want, shouldn't that include friendships as well?

 

You use the term "romantic ethics." What, specifically, do you view as the romantic ethics that you are so against? (It's just not clear to me from your posts above -- jealousy? possessiveness? commitment? other things?)

 

It's about selfishness.

 

The reason someone can't betray a friend, in my experience, has little to do with "friendship" and has more to do with not wanting any backlash and not wanting to harm a friendship because it meets one of their needs.

 

They might also have to see the effects of their actions, and they simply don't want to have to face that sort of fallout.

 

The concept that we should only value the feelings of those who we value makes no sense to me. If it's wrong for me to sleep with a friend's husband because she is my friend and it could hurt her, then why is it any better for me to sleep with some stranger's husband simply because I don't know her? How is her pain an less important?

 

Look, I am not claiming to be perfect or saying that I have never hurt anyone. Of course I have. There are times I have been absolutely awful. The thing is, I have the ability to make choices about my life. I can choose whether or not to get involved with someone who is married, or I can choose to only open the relationship door to a guy who is single. I can choose to minimize the harm and pain I cause to others.

 

It's just like how, if I am having a bad day and am really upset and angry, I'm not going to walk up to someone I don't know and slap her across the face because it makes me feel good. Her pain is not worth the temporary "fix" I would get by hitting her. I ball my fists up, bite my lip and walk away. That's part of being an adult- not responding to every urge you have and the rest of the world be damned.

 

 

At the end of the day, I have to be able to square myself away with the person I see in the mirror every day, and if I know my intentional actions have caused someone else pain, especially if they are someone who has done nothing to me, then I sure don't feel good about myself. How can I?

Edited November 29, 2017 by wmacbride

[wmacbride]

It's about selfishness.

 

The reason someone can't betray a friend, in my experience, has little to do with "friendship" and has more to do with not wanting any backlash and not wanting to harm a friendship because it meets one of their needs.

 

They might also have to see the effects of their actions, and they simply don't want to have to face that sort of fallout.

 

The concept that we should only value the feelings of those who we value makes no sense to me. If it's wrong for me to sleep with a friend's husband because she is my friend and it could hurt her, then why is it any better for me to sleep with some stranger's husband simply because I don't know her? How is her pain an less important?

 

Look, I am not claiming to be perfect or saying that I have never hurt anyone. Of course I have. There are times I have been absolutely awful. The thing is, I have the ability to make choices about my life. I can choose whether or not to get involved with someone who is married, or I can choose to only open the relationship door to a guy who is single. I can choose to minimize the harm and pain I cause to others.

 

It's just like how, if I am having a bad day and am really upset and angry, I'm not going to walk up to someone I don't know and slap her across the face because it makes me feel good. Her pain is not worth the temporary "fix" I would get by hitting her. I ball my fists up, bite my lip and walk away. That's part of being an adult- not responding to every urge you have and the rest of the world be damned.

 

 

At the end of the day, I have to be able to square myself away with the person I see in the mirror every day, and if I know my intentional actions have caused someone else pain, especially if they are someone who has done nothing to me, then I sure don't feel good about myself. How can I?

 

 

Add to this that to me, love is an emotion that should be all about happiness and translate into positive action. Having that come on the back of someone else has no place in that for me.