Have I lost her?

[StevePT]

We’ve been married for quite a while and it’s always been good. It still is. A while ago my wife confided in me that she wants to be with a woman. I said no and it was dropped. She raised it again about three months later. I found out at that time that one of her better friends and her husband had got into the swinging scene and she was feeding my wife all this crap about how awesome it is to be with other women. My wife and I did discuss it at length and the end result was that we no longer see this other couple except at events where we’re both invited.

Fast forward about 6 months and it’s raised again. I did something stupid this time and said ok, but only on the proviso that it’s a threesome (with me obviously). I had no intention of this ever happening, I knew my wife would never allow me to be with another woman. That is exactly what happened, she squashed the idea with an emphatic no way.

 

Fast forward about 8 more months and it’s raised yet again. My wife has created an online dating profile and she has picked out two potential women for our threesome. She has spoken to them, told them all about our situation etc. I must admit I lost my cool a bit. Creating this behind my back did not sit well with me. Of course I had to own up to the whole threesome idea being a ruse and it ended in a pretty big fight.

 

We’re about three months further down the track now and things have calmed down and the wrongs have been forgiven but she’s just hit me with a “wish” that she wants me to allow her. We are going to a pretty big NYE party and she wants me to give her permission to kiss another woman at midnight (after our kiss) if the situation presents itself.

 

I have said no but privately I am conflicted. I want the best for my wife and I want her to explore her boundaries and experience new things (I’m not talking sexually, I mean just in general). After confiding in a couple of close friends they are of the opinion that she really wants this and that I really should consider allowing it. In fact one already has with his wife. It was a one off, they are closer for it.

 

So I’m worried that not allowing her is just pushing her to cheating as she wants this so much. I don’t think she would ever cheat but…

 

It hasn’t just been a passing fad. She first mentioned this about 2 years ago. Obviously cheating will end the marriage. But I’m also worried that allowing it can lead to either her caring too much for this other person or it just gets too messy and we end up apart anyway.

 

So that makes it feel like I can lose her either way with the only chance of keeping her allowing her to do this and hope that it’s either short term or doesn’t interfere with us.

 

I’m just looking for some independent opinions because those I have felt comfortable speaking to are too close to be purely objective.

[LivingWaterPlease]

You have to decide for yourself, but for me, I wouldn't be able to stay with a person who continued to ask me if he could be with another woman or man for whatever reason.

[DKT3]

Truth is you can't allow or deny her, she is an adult. My point is she is going to do what she wants.

 

Here is what I believe your options are 1) allow yourself to be bullied into a situation you don't want 2) stand your ground and tell her what your reaction to those actions will be.

[Poutrew]

Your initial mistake was to not tell her that such behavior is an absolute deal breaker for you. Your wife wants an open marriage, where she can have sex with other women, but you aren't allowed the same- and don't fall for the "Honey, you can have sex with other men" line because she knows you wont do such a thing. If you don't control the situation you will soon find yourself sitting on the living room sofa, watching the late show, or reading a magazine, or playing with the dog, whilst your wife finishes up having noisy sex with her lesbian lover... so how do you control the situation? How can you control her behavior? Well, you can't. All you can control is your own... tell her she can have all the lesbian sex she desires, after the divorce. Then, follow through with it! If her wanting gay sex is that powerful, then you will be better off divorcing her and letting her lie in the bed she is making... and you can find a straight woman to love.

[StevePT]

2) stand your ground and tell her what your reaction to those actions will be.

 

That is what I have done and want to continue to do, but the truth is that I am wavering.

 

I do believe that she is genuine in wanting to just try this and that she is not looking for anything permanent. But then things don't always go according to plan.

 

After much soul searching I have sort of concluded that a one off would be acceptable. In fact I would actually be happy for her to do it. I just can't be confident that it wont get messy and someone will have feeling that they shouldn't, hence why I have stuck to my guns and continued to say no.

 

But, that could lead her to cheat, that will lead to the end of our marriage, and it may well have been a one off anyway which I would be comfortable with. Then we have all the mess with splitting property, custody etc. I'd really like to avoid all that.

 

I don't know. I'm even confusing myself typing this. I just don't want to lose her, but I don't want to control her either and if this is something she truly desires then...

 

As she explains it, it's something that I just cannot give her. It would be totally different if it was another guy because I have all that "equipment".

[DKT3]

That is what I have done and want to continue to do, but the truth is that I am wavering.

 

I do believe that she is genuine in wanting to just try this and that she is not looking for anything permanent. But then things don't always go according to plan.

 

After much soul searching I have sort of concluded that a one off would be acceptable. In fact I would actually be happy for her to do it. I just can't be confident that it wont get messy and someone will have feeling that they shouldn't, hence why I have stuck to my guns and continued to say no.

 

But, that could lead her to cheat, that will lead to the end of our marriage, and it may well have been a one off anyway which I would be comfortable with. Then we have all the mess with splitting property, custody etc. I'd really like to avoid all that.

 

I don't know. I'm even confusing myself typing this. I just don't want to lose her, but I don't want to control her either and if this is something she truly desires then...

 

As she explains it, it's something that I just cannot give her. It would be totally different if it was another guy because I have all that "equipment".

 

I believe her reluctance to "share" the experience with you is a red flag and maybe a sign that it will get messy.

 

Here is a question, what's the chances that she is already involved with another woman? I ask because we here, have seen this before. Where the spouse has been involved and afterwards attempts to bully the spouse into "ALLOWING" to continue.

 

Bottom line is, if you give it the ok you may lose her, if she finds it's what she really wants or you can deny her and lose her because of it. The question is which are you more comfortable with?

[StevePT]

I believe her reluctance to "share" the experience with you is a red flag and maybe a sign that it will get messy.?

 

She did in fact agree and start to organise the threesome.

 

Here is a question, what's the chances that she is already involved with another woman? I ask because we here, have seen this before. Where the spouse has been involved and afterwards attempts to bully the spouse into "ALLOWING" to continue.

 

I don't think this is the case. I don't believe she would cheat. But then I didn't believe she would ever want to sleep with someone else.

 

Bottom line is, if you give it the ok you may lose her, if she finds it's what she really wants or you can deny her and lose her because of it. The question is which are you more comfortable with?

 

I'd actually be more comfortable with her trying it and then leaving because that's what she really wanted. At least she would be leaving to be happy.

 

It would be worse for her to leave and then try this only to find that she doesn't like it. There would be no coming back.

[DKT3]

She did in fact agree and start to organise the threesome.

 

 

 

I don't think this is the case. I don't believe she would cheat. But then I didn't believe she would ever want to sleep with someone else.

 

 

 

I'd actually be more comfortable with her trying it and then leaving because that's what she really wanted. At least she would be leaving to be happy.

 

It would be worse for her to leave and then try this only to find that she doesn't like it. There would be no coming back.

Yes, but she is willing to risk what you have to find out.

 

Listen man, ask everyone here who has been cheated on if they thought the spouse would cheat. I'm guessing the answer would be 90-95% no.

 

I have been there. My wife had this same desire, but hers was only with me involved. I wasn't all that comfortable with it because I just didn't want to open that door. In the end she cheated and with a man not even a woman.

 

I see the biggest issue as her apparent lack of empathy for your position. She just pushes and pushes. I believe giving in sets a horrible template that you will likely regret. I guessing she will next push and push until you allow her to go a step father and repeat.

[nospam99]

Obvious questions for the OP I don't think were explicitly answered: Have you discussed in depth with W your own concerns about her trying this lesbian encounter? How did she react? Did she accept the validity of your concerns?

[SolG]

Hi OP. I'm a bi woman. But I'm not entirely sure your wife is bi. She may actually just be bicurious. In that she's heard these reports that sex with a woman is fantastic... and she's curious to know if that's true or not. And what it's like.

 

You've posted about discussing permission and logistics, but what of the actual nature of the fantasy she's trying to achieve here? We know she wants to experience sex with a woman... but why precisely? What in particular is she seeking from such an encounter? What is is specifically that she feels sex with a woman will deliver? Whar exactly did her swinging friend tell her?

 

If you ascertain what she thinks sex with a woman will deliver, you may actually be able to project it in a fantasy setting. For example, I love threesome sex where I'm being penetrated by a man and simultaneously being eaten by a woman. However, I equally enjoy being penetratied by a man, and him telling me to play with my clit and imagine it's the toungue of whatever type of woman we're folding into the moment. It's hot either way! I love sharing fantasies in this way! Add some relevant porn and I'm a happy girl

 

I don't think it's always nessary to enact a fantasy in order to exploit and capitalise on its eroticism. Especially if you're at your core monogamous and playing with others would be detrimental to you and/or your partnership.

 

I'd counsel trying to express these desires alone together before even considering involvimg anyone else.

[eye of the storm]

Whenever you allow a third person into your marriage you run a risk of your partner liking them more than you and the marriage ending.

 

 

My xH has a friend, they did a 3some and a year later his W left him for the woman. To say he regretted the decision is an understatement.

 

 

My xBF and I had a fantasy of bringing in another man. We talked about it, a lot, and the conversation usually ended in amazing sex. But we never did it. I didn't want to risk it. And to be honest, Im not sure he did either. It was just a very hot fantasy of ours.

 

 

Talk to your W and find out what the end game of this is. Every action has a reaction, what reaction is she looking for. What if the sex is mind blowing, does she really think she will give it up? What if the sex sucks, will she try to find out if it was because of the partner she picked.

 

 

And lets talk about the partners, many times they have so much fun they want to continue it. And frequently, one of the couple agrees. What will she feel if you and the other woman hit it off. Now you have a jealous W on your hands. And she won't care this was all her idea. And how will she feel if the person blabs your business all over creation?

 

 

If you were both on board with this, it would be no big deal. But only she wants this. And because of that, it has bad outcomes written all over it.

[elaine567]

I guess you have really, as whether it is a man or a woman your wife is hankering after to have sex with, it is basically the same thing.

She is not respecting your marriage vows and is not content with you as her one and only.

 

Be careful about the NYE kiss, this may be a set up. Whilst you "allow" her to make out with (I guess it is not a peck on the cheek she is after) some "random" woman, she may have in fact lined up her gf...

This after all was a woman who was speaking to women behind your back and lining up a threesome, she is not some "innocent", anything is possible.

 

Do not allow her to humiliate you in public, on a special day, it is just not cool.

 

Personally I am sorry but I would show her the door.

Your marriage if not already a sham, is definitely heading that way.

[browzer]

Dude she wants a threesome!

 

Loosen up, go with it and get sucked off by two women at the same time.

 

Sure there's a risk you'll lose her to the other woman but that could happen either way.

 

You might as well have the experience that is just a fantasy to most guys including myself.

[StevePT]

Obvious questions for the OP I don't think were explicitly answered: Have you discussed in depth with W your own concerns about her trying this lesbian encounter? How did she react? Did she accept the validity of your concerns?

 

We have discussed this at length and repeatedly. She "understands" my concerns but assures my that she wont develop feelings for the other woman. When I point out to her that we started in a similar fashion she just dismisses it and says it wont happen here.

 

When we met she had a boyfriend but we just had a connection and honestly it couldn't be ignored. Nothing happened between us, but she split with her boyfriend to see what would happen with us and after a cooling off period of 3 months where we stayed away from each other we ended up together. So I think she's being naive to say that it wont happen this time. It might not happen but it equally might. I'm sure she's honest when she says she doesn't want it to but history tells me it might happen anyway.

[StevePT]

If you ascertain what she thinks sex with a woman will deliver, you may actually be able to project it in a fantasy setting.

 

The way I understand it it that it's just the fact that it's another woman. They kiss differently, they're more gentle etc etc. Of course she doesn't know all this. it's just what she's been told and in any case the woman she chooses may be none of these things.

 

So I can try kissing differently and making sure I'm always clean haven so I'm smooth like a woman, but, I'm not a woman. I can't give her that.

[StevePT]

My xH has a friend, they did a 3some and a year later his W left him for the woman. To say he regretted the decision is an understatement.

 

I totally understand. I do feel that letting this happen could lead to disaster. But I feel that not letting this happen could lead to disaster as well.

 

Where I'm at at the moment is that I believe she will break up, ask for a break, or something to that effect in order to do this. I don't believe she would cheat. The problem is that is we were on a break and then she does get with another woman I still find that unacceptable so we will be over. So continuing to say no seems almost a certain end to us.

 

But if I allow her to do this then while it still may end in disaster it may also work exactly as she says. It's a one off, she doesn't like it, or likes it but she has done it so can now leave it, and we move on together.

 

I know people probably see me as weak for that, but it really is the lesser of two evils. Maybe if our kids were older I may feel different but I just couldn't imagine having only partial custody.

[StevePT]

Dude she wants a threesome!

 

Loosen up

 

Each to their own.

 

I have everything I want in a woman. I don't need any more.

 

That same thought process is sort of why I understand where she's coming from. She has everything she wants in a man (not gloating, her words), but I just cannot provide what a woman can, I don't have the parts.

 

If we were to have a threesome I don't think this other woman could do anything for me. I would get far greater satisfaction out of seeing my wife fulfil her fantasy. But the flip side to that is the possibilities of what happens after? What about everyone's feelings? What if someone does want more?

 

Despite the fun it could provide I don't think it's worth the risk.

[DKT3]

I would suggest you read the site. We've had people post about this very situation and in every case I can remember the wife pushing was already well into having sex outside of the marriage. You know your wife better then any of us.... however, it's much easier to see the bulls horns if you head isn't in his backside. Maybe your view is too close.

 

To me you are being bullied, she has left you with the impression that if you don't go along she will leave. I can't speak for you, but that doesn't sound like love to me.

 

Now you tell us that your wife has a history of cheating??? I don't know man.

[SolG]

The way I understand it it that it's just the fact that it's another woman. They kiss differently, they're more gentle etc etc. Of course she doesn't know all this. it's just what she's been told and in any case the woman she chooses may be none of these things.

 

So I can try kissing differently and making sure I'm always clean haven so I'm smooth like a woman, but, I'm not a woman. I can't give her that.

 

IME a woman's kiss is the greatest point of difference between having sex with a man and a woman. Women don't kiss differently, their lips are just softer making it a really different tactile experience. IME WRT everything else (oral, penetration with toys, etc) the experience varies depending upon the other party involved. Regardless of gender, it's about skill and connection.

 

In the fantasy space you don't need to pretend to be a woman, you just need to get her to imagine being with one. In fact I'd recommend the opposite to trying to be feminine. Be all out hard kissing masculine you. Be the foil to the fantasy....

 

As I've already written I'm bi, and I'm also a switch. I've had many a male alpha partner who's submission fantasies were never realised IRL. Eg, In his deepest darkest he may admit to wanting to be feminised and fu(ked by BBC, but in reality he just wants to realise the fantasy in his head and not in actuality. I'm never going to have a BBC, but I can sure as hell ignite the idea, the thought, the fantasy... through skilled whispers in the ear.

 

I'm a woman. I'm softish. But I have no problem evoking the image or idea of a hard bodied guy with a relentless BBC. As I'm sure you as a man you can easily evoke a buxom soft young thing capable of delivering on your W's wildest dreams.

 

Don't sell yourself short. At this point she just has an idea. I say stick to your principles of being monogamous because it seems really important to you, but work the idea of the fantasy. Sometimes mind fu(king is the best fu(king of all.

[nospam99]

Another thought ... and sorry this is negative. Ask W if she's willing to do a post-nup or talk to a lawyer about a post-nup. And then have the second talk, too, depending on who you spoke to first. In spite of her reassurances, W has a history of 'wandering'. AND you say you have young kids. LAST thing you want is losing her AND having her run off with her lesbian lover with most of the 'marital assets'. (I speak from experience. In my case there were 'financial irregularities' on her part and even though the divorce is 'settled' there is an ongoing lawsuit about the assets.)

[StevePT]

To me you are being bullied, she has left you with the impression that if you don't go along she will leave. I can't speak for you, but that doesn't sound like love to me.

 

You make some very salient points and give me much to think about.

 

Now you tell us that your wife has a history of cheating???

 

No she doesn't. I never said that.

[StevePT]

Don't sell yourself short. At this point she just has an idea. I say stick to your principles of being monogamous because it seems really important to you, but work the idea of the fantasy. Sometimes mind fu(king is the best fu(king of all.

 

You raise some very good points.

 

Just to touch on one area, I believe that trust is more important than monogamy. The thought of my wife being with someone else doesn't disgust nor even concern me. It's the thought of what it might lead to that sends shivers down my spine. I just don't wish to open that door.

 

If I could be convinced that there would be no feelings, that it would be a one off or occasional thing, and that on my say so it could finish at any time, then I wouldn't be posting here as it would already be happening. Despite everyone's best intentions there's just no way to guarantee that and as a result I'm reluctant to let it happen.

 

That would be fine, and has been so far, except I now believe we are getting very close to her leaving to explore this. I'm sure she would have the full intention of coming back but once she's gone, that's it for me.

[eye of the storm]

Steve, If you feel that strongly that if she goes, its done. Have you told her that she is choosing to end her marriage if she does this?

 

 

And I would do a consultation with a lawyer just so you know your rights and what actions will/won't hurt your case. I am not advocating divorce, I am advocating you knowing your options.

 

 

A fantasy is all well and good, but once she realizes that fulfilling her fantasy may cost her the reality she has built, it may not be one she is willing to do.

 

 

Or, she may say she wants to do it anyway which tells you how much she values you and your marriage. (she will play it so that you are just a bully but....keep in mind it is her choice)