Are previous sex partners with my wife the father of my children?

[rog]

This article I posted below is disturbing. My wife had many sexual partners before we were married, she said too many to count. The research I read from this site as well as others indicates that an enzyme from the sperm affects all the developing and undeveloped eggs a woman carries. In effect, imbedding that enzyme in all her potential eggs and leaving the eggs with certain characteristics from all previous men she had unprotected sex with. I have always felt that my sons don’t look like any one in my family or me. They are thin and Nordic looking. They are my children, I impregnated her; testing proved it. But are they really? Any comments or additional info would be helpful!

 

“It’s a long-held belief among animal breeders that pure-bred progeny are best produced by females who have never mated before. Call it puritanical or ridiculous, but in breeding, it’s been a long-standing practice—even though there has never been much science to back it up.

 

Now, however, researchers at University of New South Wales in Australia believe they may finally have some evidence to give that notion some scientific support. Working with flies, Angela Crean, a research fellow at the evolution and ecology research center, picked up on her mentor’s work of looking at how male factors can influence offspring outside of the DNA.

 

“The genetic tests showed that even though the second male fertilized the eggs, the offsprings size was determine by the condition of the first male,” she says of her findings, published in the journal Ecology Letters. “The cool thing is that the non-genetic effects we are seeing are not necessarily tied to the fertilization itself.”

 

Cool, or really disturbing. The implications of the study are that any mates a female has had may leave some legacy—in the form of physical or other traits that are carried in the semen (but not the DNA- containing sperm) that could show up in her future offspring with another mate.”

(From TIME Health)

 

Men, are we rally the only biological father our children have?

Edited December 25, 2017 by rog

[browzer]

Sounds rather farfetched that a sperm enzyme from a previous sex partner can change a characteristic of a future offspring such as how tall they are.

 

As your post indicates there's no proven science behind it, just theories and speculation.

[central]

There is an observed effect from prior mates in the flies used in the experiments, but there is NO evidence that this kind of telegony extends to humans. To imply that there is, is pure speculation at this point. Even if true, does it matter? The disturbing thing is that this could be used as yet another excuse for men to try to control female sexuality.

[heartbrokenlady]

The disturbing thing is that this could be used as yet another excuse for men to try to control female sexuality.

 

 

Exactly my thoughts.

[RecentChange]

Huh.

 

Never heard this as common practice in animal breeding. Never. And I have been involved in the breeding and training of high priced horses, we Are talking $250,000 stud fees. If there was science to back this up, I believe the sport horse and thoroughbred industry would be all over it.

 

Plus those industries have real data that could be studied. For one, thoroughbreds are produced only by "live cover" (ie mating) and records of ever pairing are kept. While there are many sport horses that are produced via other means, including surrogates.

 

Cattle industry would also be all over this - yet they aren't, because I have a feeling that this does not replicate in mammals.

 

There is a lot of difference between a fly, and the complexity of a mammal.

[elaine567]

I have always felt that my sons don’t look like any one in my family or me. They are thin and Nordic looking.

Maybe they look like your wife's family or ancestors, no?

[rog]

My wife's family is from Morocco and mine are from Bulgaria; no Nordic types there.

[Dreamwalker17]

Human are not flies, you can't extrapolate research findings like that even if they are valid.

Looks like you've done DNA tests to confirm your paternity.

Your kids are yours, even if they don't look exactly like you.

[central]

Did you do the DNA tests yourself, collect the samples yourself, send them in yourself, etc.? If so, then the results are what they are. If not, there is room for manipulation. Besides, the telegony effect - IF it exists - would not seem to apply to ethnic characteristic, only to things like body size/robustness - any other effects are pure speculation, even for flies.

Edited December 25, 2017 by central

[LivingWaterPlease]

Interesting concept, rog. This is the second article I've heard of (I read the other one. Haven't read this one yet.) that reported related findings.

 

I don't have an opinion about it at this point other than to find it interesting that this is the second article within the past six months that leans in the direction of long term effect of sperm left in females from multiple males. The other article was more about the sperm affecting the females who received it rather than affecting her progeny. Will be interesting to see if more is written about it.

[merrmeade]

There is an observed effect from prior mates in the flies used in the experiments, but there is NO evidence that this kind of telegony extends to humans. To imply that there is, is pure speculation at this point. Even if true, does it matter? The disturbing thing is that this could be used as yet another excuse for men to try to control female sexuality.

Exactly my thoughts.

Mine, too. I can see a layer of pseudo science added to "The Handmaid's Tale" mandate: Males must control human gestation by enslaving fertile females from puberty to menopause.

[OneLov]

Epigentics is still not well understood and largely theoretical. But could a semen cocktail influence her unfertilized eggs? Theoretically, yes. Everything that has entered her body since birth (a woman is born with all her eggs), including but not limited to bacteria, cigarette smoke, artificial hormones and pesticides found in the food she's eaten, etc. can theoretically change the expression of her genes and directly affect the overall phenotype of the offspring.

 

Are you the father? Of course. The previous mates did not provide half the chromosomes, and they are not any more responsible than Joe Camel for the expression of her donation. Also, possibly (and I stress "possibly" since insects and mammals have biologically significant differences in reproduction) influencing something very general as size, in the case of the fly, isn't exactly the same as inheriting the first mate's nose and chin.

 

I'm not a biologist, but I'll give you my fifth-grade knowledge on predicting inheritance based on dominant and recessive genes. Remember Punnett squares? If two parents carry a recessive gene it can become dominant in the offspring. Blonde hair and blue eyes (I'm guessing that's what you mean by your offspring appearing Nordic) are recessive genes. So it is very likely you and your wife both carried the gene despite having dark haired/eyed relatives. That gene was never expressed because neither of your ancestors ever mated with someone who carried it, but it was passed down to you. Once your chromosomes combined, the recessive genes became dominant.

 

So your children having Nordic features are likely not the result of a third-party semen cocktail, but from your genes that were not expressed in previous generations but carried by each of you. This very basic understanding of genetic selection basically debunked the theory of telegony. However, there is a case to be made for epigentics. Although, we still do not fully understand to what extent and how specific environmental factors play a role.

Edited December 26, 2017 by OneLov

[rog]

I am aware that this is still in the research stage. But as genetic and DNA research advances this may prove to be true. Years ago paternity testing was science fiction along with other medical theories which today are accepted practice.

 

I must plead ignorance when I read posts about controlling women fertility related to my question. The research I have read is a few years old and I am only interested in further information. My situation may only relate to me. I am the father of my children, but these science articles I have read sort of imply that other males may have had some impact on my off spring.

 

This is a quote from another source: "There is no evidence of such effects in humans (today), but there has not been any research on this possibility in humans. There is a potential for such effects in mammals,” explained Crean. “For example, there is a lot of foetal DNA in maternal blood during pregnancy, and this could potentially play a role in such effects. There is also evidence in mammals that seminal fluid affects offspring development, so semen from one male could potentially influence the development of eggs fertilized by another male (which is what we think is happening in flies).”

Crean added that due to ethical restraints it would be difficult to conduct a similar experiment on humans."

 

Source: Crean AJ, Kopps AM, Bonduriansky R. Revisiting telegony: offspring inherit an acquired characteristic of mother’s previous mate. Ecology. 2014.

 

Any additional insight would be helpful for me.

[OneLov]

Sure, they may have. But I don't think in the way you are postulating.

 

Everything that has entered her body can theoretically affect how her genes are expressed. If we have links to things in our environment that mutate our DNA and cause cancer, it is very likely things in our environment can change the way our DNA is expressed. Can we say for certain and to what degree--no. But it's likely the DDT she injested back in the day had a much greater effect on genetic expression than any semen.

 

Forget ethics; let's talk practicalities. Unless you grow a woman in a test tube, keep her in a bubble until she reaches sexual maturity, feed her a strict nutrient based diet via tubes, and repeat the basic steps of the fruit fly experiment, how can you ever quantify or even conclude any effect a prior mate's semen had on YOUR offspring?

 

I don't mean to sound ignorant, but I don't understand why you want to view this through a telegony lens? There's nothing about a researcher's conjecture from one experiment on insects that should imply your wife's previous lovers had any more influence on your children than a T-bone steak she ate that was full of artificial hormones.

 

So did her previous partners sire or otherwise, in whole or in part, father your children? No! That's a misleading question derived from an inaccurate statement in your first post even in the context of the fruit fly experiment. In the broadest sense, the foreign semen is likely no more or less responsible for your offspring's phenotype than the aforementioned cut of beef.

Edited December 26, 2017 by OneLov

[basil67]

rog, why is this so important to you?

[Mrin]

I don't mean to be historic stick-in-the-mud but when it comes to Nordic features showing up in unexpected places you have to remember the age of the Vikings. There was some serious rape and pillaging going on and the Vikings spread their Nordic genes far and wide. Even if you discount the raping and pillaging you have to remember that they also had an amazingly wide-ranging Trade Network that brought Nordic men in contact with women all over the world.

[RecentChange]

 

I'm not a biologist, but I'll give you my fifth-grade knowledge on predicting inheritance based on dominant and recessive genes. Remember Punnett squares? If two parents carry a recessive gene it can become dominant in the offspring. Blonde hair and blue eyes (I'm guessing that's what you mean by your offspring appearing Nordic) are recessive genes. So it is very likely you and your wife both carried the gene despite having dark haired/eyed relatives. That gene was never expressed because neither of your ancestors ever mated with someone who carried it, but it was passed down to you. Once your chromosomes combined, the recessive genes became dominant.

 

So your children having Nordic features are likely not the result of a third-party semen cocktail, but from your genes that were not expressed in previous generations but carried by each of you. This very basic understanding of genetic selection basically debunked the theory of telegony. .

 

Very good point, and most of us can point to hundreds of examples of this in our every day life.

 

My family for instance. My mother has brown hair and brown eyes. Her parents have brown hair and brown eyes - but we're recessive carriers.

 

Her first husband had brown hair and brown eyes.

 

My half sister (product of that marriage) has blond hair and blue eyes (DNA tested).

 

But the "influence" of that pairing did not cause me to have blond hair nor blue eyes (both are brown) and my father has brown hair and grey eyes.

[dichotomy]

One thing about carrying genetics (wife and your side) from previous generations - is things come up. We look at old family photos - well over 100 years ago - and we see certain "types" repeating but sometimes skipping one generation or even two ! For example my wife looks nothing like her mom or dad - but oh boy her mom's mom (her grandmother) there is an uncanny resemblance - face, body, scowl . Also beyond looks its easy I think to spot certain emotional, mental, traits.

 

 

Lots of people using DNA testing these days - we got our stepson a kit. He is excited to find out about his ancestors because there is alot of confusion on heritage. My sister had it done for her - and what European and Celtic Mutts we are

 

But people who adopt or use sperm or egg donors - are the still parents. You are the daddy that is raising and loving them.

 

 

 

P.S. I get (really I do) the issues a husband may face when he has a wife with more past partners than you would have wished. Its a separate issue for you and her to resolve - don't extend it to your kids. Parent Child love is a special love beyond any thing else.

Edited December 26, 2017 by dichotomy

[SammySammy]

There are some controversial studies that say women carry dna markers from their lovers in their bodies. However, I think the dna that fertilizes an egg comes from a specific sperm cell.

 

If “dna markers” stored in women’s bodies could produce children, women would be getting pregnant every time they ovulate without having sex.

 

That’s not happening, so I feel your fears are unfounded.

 

If your kids have different dna than you, it’s because another man dumped some sperm in your wife. If you’re worried, have them tested to find out for sure rather than confusing yourself with outlandish theories.

[Doorstopper]

My wife's family is from Morocco and mine are from Bulgaria; no Nordic types there.

 

Do you consider Baltic to be the same as/similiar to nordic? I am Lithuanian, and was recently wondering why "Christmas" in Lithuanian Kaledu is so similar to bulgarian: Koleda. Especially since Lithuanian is considered one of the oldest indo-Europen languages with some words going back to Sanskrit. It turns out is is translated from the pagan pre-Christmas winter solstice festival word. The word also exists in Polish and Belorussian, but only the Bulgarians and Lithuanians use it for Christmas.

 

Anyway it turns out that there was substantial mixing between Bulgarians and Lithuanians/Poles 1000-1600 years ago resulting in a Bulgarian DNA being 40-45% Balto-Slavic (23.2% Lithuanian and 19.3% Polish). Your DNA may not be as far off from Nordic, than you think.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Bulgarians

 

Its a small world, Maybe we are related, LOL

Edited December 26, 2017 by Doorstopper

[dichotomy]

Do you consider Baltic to be the same as/similiar to nordic? I am Lithuanian, and was recently wondering why "Christmas" in Lithuanian Kaledu is so similar to bulgarian: Koleda. Especially since Lithuanian is considered one of the oldest indo-Europen languages with some words going back to Sanskrit. It turns out is is translated from the pagan pre-Christmas winter solstice festival word. The word also exists in Polish and Belorussian, but only the Bulgarians and Lithuanians use it for Christmas.

 

Anyway it turns out that there was substantial mixing between Bulgarians and Lithuanians/Poles 1000-1600 years ago resulting in a Bulgarian DNA being 40-45% Balto-Slavic (23.2% Lithuanian and 19.3% Polish). Your DNA may not be as far off from Nordic, than you think.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Bulgarians

 

Its a small world, Maybe we are related, LOL

 

Those damn Vikings got around. DNA expressing itself after years of hiding.

 

Visual material evidence of Viking presence in the Balkans

Edited December 27, 2017 by dichotomy

[sandylee1]

I think it's a load of nonsense to put it bluntly. Only one sperm fertilises the egg. In.the case of fraternal twins it's two different sperms for each egg.

 

Sperm dies in the body after a certain amount of time.

 

As others have said...some traits come from through backs in the family. Here is a classic example of it.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nypost.com/2010/07/21/blond-bombshell/amp/

 

You've done a paternity test. The children are yours. No need to bring your wife's previous sexual history into this.

 

It just comes across as insecurity... and you blaming her having a high number on the fact that your children have Nordic features.

 

Your children would look as they do regardless...because they are a product of the two of you.

 

I have to agree with Central on this one (I don't often share his views ...it seems like an attempt to ensure women have none or few sexual partners.

 

I'll bet it was research done by men as well.

[rog]

My children are grown adults and I have always considered them MY CHILDREN. They look nothing like my wife or me. Through the years sometimes we would be asked if they were adopted since we look so different from them. I never gave it much thought then, other than it was nature doing what it does in reproduction.

It wasn’t until I came across some of this research literature recently, which I know nothing about, that I became curious. My wife grew up in Norway, her family had moved there when she was a young child form Morocco. She and her family lived there for almost 20 years. Almost all of her sexual past occurred there with Nordic (northern European) looking men. Since my children have some Nordic characteristics this literature became an interest. After reading some of the links that were posted and other comments, I’m sure my children’s physical characteristics are just by chance; yes those Vikings did get around. Or until science proves other wise! If any of you come across info please post it.

[Mr. Lucky]

My wife had many sexual partners before we were married, she said too many to count.

 

I think you're trying to slap a pseudo-scientific coat of paint on the real issue.

 

Might be good to talk to someone about it since the concern has already pushed you to DNA test your children...

 

Mr. Lucky

[dichotomy]

In the farthest possible extreme - let say (for fantasy sake) that her eggs where "altered" slightly by past lovers.. Maybe in a sense - fantasy sense - you impregnated a slightly nordic female egg. See the flip of this fantasy ? You had children with a "Nordic female". A different FEMALE EGG:lmao: She should be worried they are not "her" kids. They are for sure yours.

 

Haha - but seriously....no.

 

You are both the parents.

 

Your DNA is confirmed - but even if it wasn't - your the dad, your kids love you. A child's love and admiration for their dad is something so valuable. I can't tell you how much my children's love for me (and me for them) has meant. Its a reward beyond any issues I had with my own wife and marriage.

 

I suspect you (and your wife) have still not resolved her past. I dont know if she lied or hid it from you, or if you have some religious or cultural issues around her past, but in any case please get (or continue) some therapy. I am sorry you're going through this - I get some of it.

Edited December 28, 2017 by dichotomy