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I just don't understand how he could come back time after time and keep doing the same thing. What's the point. If he wants to be there, stay there! I don't get it!

 

I know it's about him. But why drag me into it? What does he get out of it?

 

I know it "doesn't matter" but it seems to, to me. I have such a hard time moving on from things I don't understand.

 

2x4's inbound.

 

What's the point? He enjoys having sex with you and having a wife at the same time. Let's say he gets 5 points of happiness having his wife/family/respect and 3 points of happiness having sex with you. If he does both, he gets 8 points of happiness. He doesn't want to leave because that would be -5 happiness points. Having sex with more than one woman is fun, he enjoys that and it makes him feel good about himself to know he has 2 women available to be intimate with. Simply put 2 is better than 1.

 

What does he get out of it? Sex, validation, ego boost.. But that's not really the question, is it? Who cares what he gets out of it, what do you get out of it? Do you enjoy the sex enough to suffer the pain of being "one of many"? If so, then this is the price you pay for it. If not, you have to start looking to move on, because I can almost promise you, all the words he says to you about how conflicted he is, how much he wants to leave, how he just can't make a decision? Those words are all BS, they are just words to keep you around and keep you in a position of providing for him without him doing anything much in return.

 

Here's the thing I've come to realize after my W's A; in a lot of ways, before I was married, the relationship my W had with her AP was absolutely the "perfect" relationship for me. It was exactly the relationship that I wanted to have when I was a younger man, a woman who'd come over, have sex with me, and then ask for nothing else (because she was already getting it from her H). In short, a typical A, in a lot of ways, is all the best parts of a relationship with a woman for a man; sex without commitment, sex without gifts, often times even sex without a single date. Just hop in the car, give me a BJ, and then we both go back to work (sorry to be so crude, but that's pretty common A behavior, and also a typical male fantasy). It takes all the best parts of a relationship with a woman for a man and bundles them up, and by nature, makes all the parts of a relationship that men try to avoid almost impossible, so much easier to not do them (commitment being highest on that list).

 

So, back to your question, why does he keep doing it? Because it's "perfect" for him, it's everything he wants from you and nothing he doesn't. You can't understand why he would do this because, for you, the A isn't giving you the "best parts" of the relationship, you want the things an A doesn't provide, commitment, fidelity, etc. So, of course, from your perspective it seems like "why would he do this" because the relationship you have now seems empty, it's mostly downsides and doesn't include the aspects of a relationship that you want. The thing that you don't realize, those aren't (despite his words) the aspects of the relationship that he wants. He's getting those things already in the A, the sex, the ego boost of sleeping with 2 women, the additional person to send sexy messages to.

 

Looking at my W's A logically, the thought that I often have isn't "why would he do what he did" it's "why would he ever stop doing it"; the relationship he had with my W was "perfect", he send some TXT messages, talk on the phone for a few minutes, she'd come over, sleep with him half a dozen times, give him sex where ever and whenever he wanted it and never asked for a single thing in return other than telling her she mattered and she was beautiful. For at least some guys, myself included, that's a pretty awesome relationship, especially when you already have a W to handle all the emotional needs and kick in extra sex as well. The questions isn't "why would he do this", that's completely obvious, the question is "why would YOU do this". Is it filling your needs? Is more sex your goal from this relationship? If not, you need to move on, because your in a relationship that's designed to fill that primary need. A's provide sex and ego kibbles, and the ego kibbles are dangerous because, unlike the sex, they will almost certainly be "pulled away" after d-day (when he/she drops you, tells the spouse everything, explains how it meant nothing, and then vilifies you publicly). The ego kibbles are often empty words; people "saying anything" to get what they want from the A. So, simplifying all this down, is your goal "more sex"? If not, get away/get out, because your AP's goal is almost certainly that and where your upset he won't give you what you want, he's happy as could be, because he's getting exactly what he wants, and will happily keep taking it for the next year, 5 years, or as long as you'll keep providing it/until d-day (whichever comes first).

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CrushingHope
2x4's inbound.

 

{snip}

 

With all due respect, our relationship is/was nothing at all like what you've described.

 

We weren't in an affair...at least not in the typical manner. He would leave her and we would date..."officially"...he would stay every night at my house (when we lived in the same city) ...it wasn't even close to being all about sex. We went on road trips and did things together all the time...dinners out, walks around the river, played softball with his son, went fishing, went to my friend's wedding together...etc.

 

I understand that most affairs have very similar aspects, and maybe there some here that are the same (he is doing things with me that he doesn't do with her because she doesn't enjoy them), but for the most part this is very different. We have never been together when they were together. But yes there have been months at a time where we texted when they were together. But, we never met up once when they were together.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate the effort you took to respond. I did read and think about it, but much of what you said doesn't really pertain here.

 

I will think about "what I'm getting out of it" though. Not much anymore but heartache it seems.

Edited by a LoveShack.org Moderator
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With all due respect, our relationship is/was nothing at all like what you've described.

 

We weren't in an affair...at least not in the typical manner. He would leave her and we would date..."officially"...he would stay every night at my house (when we lived in the same city) ...it wasn't even close to being all about sex. We went on road trips and did things together all the time...dinners out, walks around the river, played softball with his son, went fishing, went to my friend's wedding together...etc.

 

I understand that most affairs have very similar aspects, and maybe there some here that are the same (he is doing things with me that he doesn't do with her because she doesn't enjoy them), but for the most part this is very different. We have never been together when they were together. But yes there have been months at a time where we texted when they were together. But, we never met up once when they were together.

 

Anyway, I do appreciate the effort you took to respond. I did read and think about it, but much of what you said doesn't really pertain here.

 

I will think about "what I'm getting out of it" though. Not much anymore but heartache it seems.

 

I understand your view on it, but, read some of the other threads, how many people feel their A is "for the most part this is very different"? Some huge proportion feel that way, and almost all of them are wrong. It's not different, this is just the way you keep the flame of an A alive. And of course you do things other than sex, that's not my implication; but I am implying that the reason he's there is to have sex. The "other things" you mention and do, those are the things he does to get to the part that he wants from the relationship. If you don't think this is true, I'll give you the same advice I give every OW in your situation; tell him, until things are clear with his relationship status, there will be NO physical aspect anymore AT ALL. No kissing, no BJs, no sex. And see what happens. It might motivate him to clear things up and make way for you as a real part of his life, but, most of the time, once they realize your serious, they will move on.

 

Can anyone see this more clearly than me? I feel like it's more complicated than him keeping me around in CASE he decides to leave her or, or just for an ego boost or something. Why would he do that? What's the point?

 

These are your words. It's not more complicated than that. He want's a backup plan. He wants someone who will sleep with him if things don't pan out in his other relationship. He likes the ego boost of having 2 women. He does that because it feels good. It really isn't more complicated than that, you're looking for "deeper truth" where, most of the time, it's just not there. Men who really want a relationship with a woman who are married file for D and move on from the wife. They don't play house, they don't try to fix things up, and they don't play games like this.

 

I'm sorry, I hope this hasn't been too blunt, and I hope this does help you move forward.

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CrushingHope
I understand your view on it, but, read some of the other threads, how many people feel their A is "for the most part this is very different"? Some huge proportion feel that way, and almost all of them are wrong. It's not different, this is just the way you keep the flame of an A alive. And of course you do things other than sex, that's not my implication; but I am implying that the reason he's there is to have sex. The "other things" you mention and do, those are the things he does to get to the part that he wants from the relationship. If you don't think this is true, I'll give you the same advice I give every OW in your situation; tell him, until things are clear with his relationship status, there will be NO physical aspect anymore AT ALL. No kissing, no BJs, no sex. And see what happens. It might motivate him to clear things up and make way for you as a real part of his life, but, most of the time, once they realize your serious, they will move on.

 

 

 

These are your words. It's not more complicated than that. He want's a backup plan. He wants someone who will sleep with him if things don't pan out in his other relationship. He likes the ego boost of having 2 women. He does that because it feels good. It really isn't more complicated than that, you're looking for "deeper truth" where, most of the time, it's just not there. Men who really want a relationship with a woman who are married file for D and move on from the wife. They don't play house, they don't try to fix things up, and they don't play games like this.

 

I'm sorry, I hope this hasn't been too blunt, and I hope this does help you move forward.

 

 

Again, I have to say that my situation is different. Whether you see it that way or not. It's not an "affair". We have never been together while he has been with her. He has ended the relationship several times with her only to go back. This has been going on for years. Theirs is a very tumultuous, very toxic, dysfunctional relationship that he has had trouble leaving for many reasons.

 

Our relationship is not about sex. It never has been. I know that's hard for you to believe but it's absolutely the truth. Our sex life was not even the greatest thing about us and it took us a while to find our groove with that because I was hesitant. And still am whenever we get back together. He knows that part is a challenge but he comes back anyway. If he wanted sex only, he would be happy to sneak out and have sex (with probably other people aside from me) and go back to her...there would be no need to leave her, move all of his stuff out of her place, move to another city to get a new start, get a new job etc. Not too many people would do that just for sex. Yes, he went back, and continues to do so...but the situation is complicated, whether that sounds naive or not, it's true. If you read the entire thread (which I'm not asking you to do, just saying), I think you would see that this is not a typical affair situation. It's not even an affair at all.

 

Sure, lots of men are just in it for sex, and I'm sure that's more common than anything, but this situation is not about that. Their life consists of drinking and dysfunction and toxicity. And somehow he has a sense of belonging there and I think it's very hard for him to leave and feel the discomfort of losing the "good" parts of being apart of something, even if it's toxic and unhealthy. Leaving a toxic relationship is harder than leaving a healthy one. He's been trying for more than 5 years. Even way before he knew me.

Edited by CrushingHope
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CrushingHope

I wish I could stop obsessing. I wish I could force myself to not look at social media.

 

I don't want to feel this pain, yet I keep torturing myself thinking that everything I see means that they're happy and great. She posted a new pic of herself and he "liked" it...and that makes me feel like things are great. I know they're not. I know they haven't been great for years and that her knowing about me makes things even less likely to be great.

 

Why do I wish to torture myself? Do I think I deserve this or something? What is making me have such little value and respect for myself?

 

just venting because I don't know where else to turn.

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I wish I could stop obsessing.

 

I don't want to feel this pain, yet I keep torturing myself.

 

Why do I wish to torture myself?

 

It will stop, the moment that you decide to make it stop. It's up to you.

 

At this point, you are still getting something out of this drama. What that is, I have no idea. The only person who can answer the question, is you.

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CrushingHope
It will stop, the moment that you decide to make it stop. It's up to you.

 

At this point, you are still getting something out of this drama. What that is, I have no idea. The only person who can answer the question, is you.

 

I don't even know. It makes me feel crappy but you're right, I'm getting something out of it...I guess I'm scared to let go for fear that he won't come back if I do things differently than before. And even if I want to feel differently (and not ever want him again) I'm not there yet.

 

I'm afraid of letting go and having nothing. When I see him on there and check in, maybe I still feel a part of it? I don't know.

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I'm scared to let go for fear that he won't come back.

 

I'm afraid of letting go and having nothing.

 

BINGO!

 

And maybe, you are scared of letting go because then you will actually be required to do something more... You will be required to ask yourself the hard questions and do the hard work of creating another life, one that you can be proud of...

 

It's way easier to sit on the sidelines and watch life pass you by, to ruminate obsessively about a situation that you can not control and is not good for you, than take a risk and actually live your life.

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CrushingHope

I have asked myself the hard questions. I just don't know the answers or how to be different. I'm going to counselling. I'm reading self help books. I'm talking to friends and family about myself. I'm here on this thread.

 

What more am I supposed to do to find out what's wrong with me in order to change it? What is the hard work to be done?

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I have asked myself the hard questions. I just don't know the answers or how to be different. I'm going to counselling. I'm reading self help books. I'm talking to friends and family about myself. I'm here on this thread.

 

What more am I supposed to do to find out what's wrong with me in order to change it? What is the hard work to be done?

 

CH, there is nothing wrong with you. You are doing the right thing by going to counselling. Continue your work with the counsellor, and you will find your way.

 

By doing the hard work, I meant ending communication with man and building a life that makes you happy, but doesn't include him. That's all.

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CrushingHope
CH, there is nothing wrong with you. You are doing the right thing by going to counselling. Continue your work with the counsellor, and you will find your way.

 

By doing the hard work, I meant ending communication with man and building a life that makes you happy, but doesn't include him. That's all.

 

Yeah. I guess that's the hardest thing. And the thing I haven't made myself do. I feel like like a completely pathetic loser.

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Yeah. I guess that's the hardest thing. And the thing I haven't made myself do. I feel like like a completely pathetic loser.

 

Lesson 1 -- Stop with the self-deprecation. It's noticeable in your posts. It isn't healthy when you keep devaluing yourself. Not only are you letting others diminish you, you're doing it to yourself.

 

As for keeping tabs on him via FB -- if he doesn't look happy on FB, then maybe he will come back to you. This is why you keep checking. It's your source of hope. But you do know all you've ever done and have been doing is position yourself as a fallback girl.

 

He's never chosen, stayed with you, come back to you -- and in the past two years, you've sat there and waited, and you are still waiting. I'm not sure what else needs to happen for you to gain some perspective of your truth and reality. The sooner you embrace the truth as to what and who you are and were to him, rather than romanticize this man as the love story of your lifetime, the sooner you let go.

 

I had to run myself through the ringer, hit the absolute rock bottom -- and then came my aha moment and things changed in my life. We're trying to help you avoid all that pain and angst but sometimes you will have to journey through it on your own to learn those hard lessons.

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CrushingHope

If he had left the first time and never came back, I would be over this by now. I believed his words and keep believing those words because he does keep coming back. He doesn't stay with her either. The back and forth is what has kept me in this crazy mindset that he will finally come back for good.

 

Every day I feel like I'm at a rock bottom. How do you know when you're really there?

 

Every day is painful whether I check his FB or not. Nothing seems to make me feel better. Maybe I'm trying to cause myself pain so I will feel the bottom of this. I know I'm causing extra hurt to myself. He's not even doing it anymore. It's sick. I can't help but devalue myself because I'm ashamed of where I am and what I've become.

 

I know you're all trying to help me. I want to be able to feel differently. I'm just not.

 

I am so scared of my life ending and not ever feeling the joy that everyone deserves.

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If he had left the first time and never came back, I would be over this by now. I believed his words and keep believing those words because he does keep coming back. He doesn't stay with her either. The back and forth is what has kept me in this crazy mindset that he will finally come back for good.

 

You need to take accountability for where you are -- this has nothing to do with him anymore. He didn't put you where you are, you did. The back and forth should have propeled you to say enough rather than sit back and wait for more. When someone shows you that they cannot be trusted, you move on. You don't sit back for two years and wait around for them.

 

And if he came back for good, what do you think your life would be like? You need to start grasping your reality. You have this warped thinking in that he comes back and you will be loved and live happily ever after. All he touches turns bad -- family, friends, relationships, etc. If he came back, you'd be on a another path of destruction and pain. There's in no happy ending here, it does not exist with him. You need to start drilling that in your head when you start romanticizing him.

 

Every day I feel like I'm at a rock bottom. How do you know when you're really there?

 

You are not at your rock bottom. Still pining for a man who has kept you on the sidelines for two years and still keeping hope alive isn't rock bottom. When the pain of leaving becomes far more tolerable than the pain of staying, you'll run. When you accept finality and come to a conclusion that change needs to happen. When you decide you want a better life for yourself and that you are tired of always being in pain.

 

Every day is painful whether I check his FB or not. Nothing seems to make me feel better. Maybe I'm trying to cause myself pain so I will feel the bottom of this. I know I'm causing extra hurt to myself. He's not even doing it anymore. It's sick. I can't help but devalue myself because I'm ashamed of where I am and what I've become.

 

If you are ashamed then choose to make a change. You keep talking about it but you need to also take proactive steps to forcibly remove yourself from a negative pattern. That means facing the discomfort and the pain of doing something different. Forcing yourself to take a different path even when it feels daunting and uncomfortable.

 

I know you're all trying to help me. I want to be able to feel differently. I'm just not.

 

You can't feel better if you choose to still keep drinking your poison.

 

I am so scared of my life ending and not ever feeling the joy that everyone deserves.

 

Then do something different. Sitting in victim mode and just wishing it away isn't going to change anything. If you want something that badly, you need to go get it. If you are that scared of your life ending and not feeling joy ever again, then choose a different path.

 

Deleting him/blocking him will be painful for awhile. It will make you anxious and uncomfortable. But it is temporary and soon you will embrace the gift of not knowing and the peace of slowly moving on. What you're doing now is a choice be in indefinite pain.

Edited by Zahara
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CH,

 

Zahara's post above is brilliant and highlights (at least) two important recurring themes in your thought patterns (that you share here): 1) the distorted idea that this man's return, all evidence to the contrary, would be a positive development, and 2) the way you seem to give away your agency and choices and frame yourself as a passive victim of fate.

 

He would only bring you more pain, again.

 

You are in control of your life. Right now you are choosing a path of self- destruction. However, this can change if you decide to protect and advocate for yourself by blocking him. It will mean, as Zahara points out, initial discomfort and anxiety, but it will ultimately set you free.

 

M.

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CrushingHope

Zahara's responses have me coming back to read and re-read them. I know whole-heartedly that she's right about everything she's said, and she seems to get exactly where I'm coming from. I'm sorry that she does because it means she's been here...

 

I think this pain allows me to feel something. Without it, I feel nothing. I don't feel free or hopeful or excited or at peace. I feel empty. Sitting in this is very painful and I don't like it at all, but because he has come back so many times, I'm living for that hope...the hope that things could be different...that someone could love me the way he pretended to...the way I'm sure he wishes he could. I take moments like when he told his son he was going to marry me, and I attach more value to that and things like that than any of the other things he's done or said - because I don't see that he'd say that to his son for no reason. It doesn't make sense. But as someone else pointed out nothing he does makes sense.

 

I'm afraid that if I walk away from him, that that will be it. Back to nothing. Back to feeling hopeless and empty and worthless. I guess being second choice is better than being no choice to anyone. That's what I'm afraid of.

 

How do I erase that fear? I feel like if I didn't have that fear, I would be able to let go so much easier.

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CrushingHope
All he touches turns bad -- family, friends, relationships, etc. If he came back, you'd be on a

 

I have to try to keep telling myself this. It's very true. There is nothing good left in his life. Not even me. Certainly not her/them. Not his kids, his job, his exes, his finances, his health...

 

He doesn't take care of anything properly. And everything falls apart.

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brokenandhopeless

Going through the same situation myself with a man from my past and just stumbled on this thread. I had him out of my life for a good 13 years until during a weak moment, I let him in again. I wish I had the courage to stop texting and move on but now I am clearly addicted to him and the emotional highs though the lows are excruciating. Only in my case, I am clearly told that I am just a friend for online benefits though I keep hoping for more. He doesn't even want to meet me anymore (we live on different coasts), but wants to be my friend and continue the sexting. I really don't know why I am emotionally attached/attracted to such a man. And we are both married with families.

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CrushingHope
Going through the same situation myself with a man from my past and just stumbled on this thread. I had him out of my life for a good 13 years until during a weak moment, I let him in again. I wish I had the courage to stop texting and move on but now I am clearly addicted to him and the emotional highs though the lows are excruciating. Only in my case, I am clearly told that I am just a friend for online benefits though I keep hoping for more. He doesn't even want to meet me anymore (we live on different coasts), but wants to be my friend and continue the sexting. I really don't know why I am emotionally attached/attracted to such a man. And we are both married with families.

 

Wow...out of your life for 13 years? And then let him back in? Did you think about him a lot of the years or were you able to let him go pretty much completely until he popped back into your mind? or what?

 

I really hope that when I'm finally able to let myself move on from this that I won't come back to it. The idea of hope is a hard thing to let go of but it's a hard thing to hang onto too. The uncertainty and lack of control makes me crazy. I need to let go of the control.

 

I've blocked him again just to keep trying.

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brokenandhopeless

The funny thing is, 17 years ago when he met his fiance after a weekend fling with me, I stayed away and decided I was not going to have a PA when he was going to get married. I had high moral standards and ethics. Then I also got married though he continued to stay in touch with me wanting to sext and phone chat but I always refused and only politely said "hi, how are you." and refused to indulge. I don't know what, may be my own marriage was lacking in some areas that 4 years ago I thought I could play this game without getting emotionally entangled but it has been 4 years of pure agony and tears that would fill a reservoir...including now....He chased me relentlessly and I found that once I caved, the last 2-3 years, I am the one putting in the effort. For him, it was just for the "benefits" and nothing more because he is happily married. He cruelly told me he doesn't want to meet me anymore, (we have met may be 5 times in the last 17 years) but wants to continue being a friend (and not his words, implications of dirty talk/sex) as well. I continue to put up with him having all the power and my not having the strength to let go of the crumbs. I just don't know why I am so addicted to him. Somehow, I always held him in a pedestal all these years and compared him even to my husband when I was getting married. I just wish I could end this and find the strength.

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I think this pain allows me to feel something. Without it, I feel nothing. I don't feel free or hopeful or excited or at peace. I feel empty. Sitting in this is very painful and I don't like it at all, but because he has come back so many times, I'm living for that hope...the hope that things could be different...that someone could love me the way he pretended to...the way I'm sure he wishes he could. I take moments like when he told his son he was going to marry me, and I attach more value to that and things like that than any of the other things he's done or said - because I don't see that he'd say that to his son for no reason. It doesn't make sense. But as someone else pointed out nothing he does makes sense.

 

It is your addiction to drama that keeps you festering in this. You thrive in toxicity, just as he does in his relationship with her. And often when we are in this mindset, we translate this type of angst as passion, love, desire -- sadly it's just dysfunction. Without the high highs and low lows, life is a lull. Plus, staying in the situation you're in now helps you hide away from looking inward and doing the work. It's easier to stay where you are -- albeit painful, it's familiar. The alternative is the unknown. It requires you to face discomfort on your own. Nothing changes until you change.

 

All that nonsense about marrying you -- this is romanticizing. You're so desperate to be validated that you cling to words -- selective in your process -- wanting to pay attention to words that only feed your hope and idealization of him and what you had with him. The fact that a man claims to want to marry you without ever even having a true relationship with you is ludicrous. It's called future faking. You can't be that clouded to not be able to counter those kinds of thoughts with some level of rationality.

 

You're placing value in his words -- a man that has consistently disappointed you and lied to you. Again, you need to start learning how to counter these fantasy thoughts with reality -- stop yourself from allowing fantasy to carry you down a rabbit hole. Start paying attention to your thoughts and counter with rationality.

 

I'm afraid that if I walk away from him, that that will be it. Back to nothing. Back to feeling hopeless and empty and worthless. I guess being second choice is better than being no choice to anyone. That's what I'm afraid of.

 

Even when you were with him you had nothing. You were a fallback. Even with him, you will feel hopeless, empty and worthless. Do you think he's going to come around and lift you up? He's a broken man -- what can he offer you? No one is going to make you feel valued if you don't even value yourself.

 

If you walk away from him, you regain your self-esteem and your emotional independence. Until that becomes your priority, you'll just keep going in circles looking to him to make you feel better about yourself. He can't even do that for himself.

 

How do I erase that fear? I feel like if I didn't have that fear, I would be able to let go so much easier.

 

This is not an overnight fix. It's going to take months and likely years of work to truly get to the other side. The issue here is that you want the best of both worlds. You want this man in your life and you want to get well. You can't have antidote in one hand and poison in the other. Until you are ready to sever ties and truly let him go, you'll continue staying stuck.

Edited by Zahara
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CrushingHope

I don't know if I believe I have an addiction to drama. I don't thrive in toxicity. I'm not thriving at all. I'm doing terribly. I don't fight with my friends or family, I don't feel good when things aren't good with people in my life. I don't cause drama with people or at work or anything like that.

 

I think I put more value on the "i'm going to marry her" thing because he didn't say it to me. His son told me this. The future faking (which yes, he did do) with me, I did recognize as being over-the-top. Is it not possible that he feels something at the moment and then just continues to change his mind? Is it not possible that he does have feelings for both of us? I guess that's naive. I don't know.

 

I have faced being alone. It's not a new concept for me. I know what it's like and yes there were times that I was okay with it, although I did wish to eventually find the right guy. This whole fear of being alone has just come on in the last few years, since I hit 40.

 

You're right about wanting both...I want to be better and I want him. I can't have both. I get that. And life with him would not be better than this...not after the "honeymoon" wore off...which we never get to, conveniently.

 

I have to focus on the fact that even when I was with him, I had so many reservations, especially the last time. I didn't trust him with my heart and I didn't let him move in because I didn't trust him. Somewhere in me, I do know that we are not likely capable of having the life I want so badly for us...I need to find a way to focus on being okay with being alone.

 

I just know how hard the evenings and weekends are, the holidays and gatherings where I'm always alone. I wouldn't have been proud to bring him to any of those now anyway. No one wants him for me anymore. Not one person.

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