Boundaries vs tolerance

[BryanSmiley]

In trying to set firmer boundaries I find it sometimes tricky to get the balance right and can over do it, albeit with the good intention of avoiding wasted time and investment on both sides.

 

Whilst I had a couple of positive, easy first dates in the latter part of last year (I just wasn't keen enough or we weren't quite a match) it reassured me how easy and friendly it CAN at times be. Albeit unfortunately from experience certainly with online dating, all too rarely.

 

With so many time wasters and flakiness I find it difficult to differentiate them from the genuine, conscientious people whom are genuinely looking to talk, meet people - not just get attention.

 

I had as many slightly negative experiences of first dates last year as I did positive, and I wanted to summarise the negative ones to get peoples perspectives. All of these I met on OLD and within a day exchanged numbers and talked a bit - to a fair bit on Whatsapp.

 

1. Set a date for the coming Sunday with a girl. Exchanged texts maybe once during the week but not huge amount of comm's, but a venue was agreed and time. The day before I text to confirm. She said she'd let me know on the day now as she had plans before hand which might carry on. She still seemed keen. I replied that I had arranged my day (with family) to suit, so perhaps it's better we just do another time now. She replied she's sorry if she'd pissed me off. I said no worries, have a good day tomorrow and let me know when's a better time. She then proceeded to delete my number (I could tell as her icon disappeared, which only originally appeared once she'd saved me on her phone). End of comm's. Now I didn't make a big deal of it but I felt it fair as it was the day before our confirmed plans, to just mention I'd arranged my day around our plans - to which she obviously took issue with. Fair?

 

2. Talked quite a bit with a girl on whatsapp towards the beginning of December. She was excited to have been matched with someone and never really does OLD, was excited to meet me. A couple of nights later I messaged enquiring what she was doing on a couple of nights. To which I had no reply, and couldn't tell if she'd read them. Fast forward 2 weeks later just before Christmas, she messages saying sorry she's been off the radar, had issues with her phone, was I free on Thursday for a drink which would be nice. I agreed, picked a pub, a time, set. Thursday comes, I message her about 7pm. She replies sh* sh*t, it's Thursday, I'm meeting a friend at 9pm. I laughed via messages and said look by the time I get there and leave we'll only have half an hour, so lets meet another time. How about we just have a little phone date. So we did, had a nice 20 minute chat, all very positive. Exchanged messages every few nights and then agreed to try and meet on the evening of New years day. She said she should be free, and I think said she'd confirm on the day. Day came and went, no comm's. I then messaged her the other night saying we seem to be struggling to meet. She posted a laughing smiley, that she was really hungover, did I have a good NYE. I said yes. I thought to myself this girl went off the radar for 2-3 weeks, missed a date, then kinda missed another, but I didn't get the impression she took much onus. So I politely said look if were not going to meet perhaps its best we just leave it. She said "Are you being grumpy pops". I said no but I'm sure we don't wish to waste each-others time, so all the best". No further comm's. Fair?

 

3. Talking to a girl quite a lot on message over the Christmas period. Talked about a lot of things in our circumstances, she deleted her OLD profile as was happy just talking to and lining up a date with me. So before our date last night were messaging, and the whole time we'd messaged I did get the feeling a couple of times she was taking jokes too far. Almost like, she was defaulting to the cheeky, micky taking path needlessly on every topic - just to appear amusing. I'd bitten my tongue til this point and teased around back. Anyway an hour before the date I merely asked if she'd eaten, as she'd just come out of the dentists after work and was meeting me. It was a kind thought on my part that she was 30 mins from home and she admitted she hadn't eaten for ages but would get something later on the way home. She then went on to say, and I'm sure it was jokingly but I felt in poor taste "You never know how first dates are gonna go, don't wanna be waiting for food and there's awkward silences, I mean I've basically been carrying our conversations ". Now, the last part even though I knew she was joking as I'd given as good as I'd gotten. I just felt it was in poor taste. I delayed responding for 20 mins to think it over. It still just didn't sit quite right with me. I messaged back, "listen I love our banter and am looking forward to a nice couple of drinks with you. But perhaps sometimes you're overstepping the line a bit there for someone you don't know. Let's just have a nice eve". She responded woah, and how she found it contradictory, no apology. I then felt the need to apologise for perhaps over reacting. Went on the date and had a nice couple of hours, good chat, but I just knew the text had left her firmly putting her barriers up. We made light of the text exchange, she dropped me home after. But via text afterwards as expected she said she had a great time but would be worrying if she's overstepped the line all the time. I said I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and overreaction but aside from this, it wasn't a huge issue. She just didn't seem to own it was possibly a tad rude and be able to move on. I perhaps shoulda bit my tongue and worded it better, but I felt I'd already done that a few times. I said I understand and don't think it's a big issue, all the best and let me know if you change your mind. Fair?

Edited January 5, 2018 by BryanSmiley

[smackie9]

This is how dating has always been. It's like buying a car. You have to kick a lot of tires before you find the right one you want to invest in. But this takes time, and a lot of searching. You will run into shady people, and the flakers because they found a better deal. It is what it is.

[Maggie4]

In all three cases, (negative) opinion was made before meeting. This is one of the reasons that online dating is difficult. Texting can lead to misunderstanding, while you're not even a "real" person until you meet, so it's easy to drop people you've never seen.

In the examples you gave, first one said you were pissed off, second one said you're grumpy, third one just said woah. What's going on? Are you tired of online dating? or do you not text well? Keep in mind the people can't see or hear you, they might take your texts as angrier than you intended.

[d0nnivain]

Of course it's all fair. You had certain expectations. They weren't' met. You stopped wasting your time & fortunately never had to deal with wasting money. If people can't manage their schedules or keep their word on the small stuff -- like a date or being polite -- there is no point in entrusting them with the bigger stuff like your heart.

[BryanSmiley]

Two contrasting views there, I appreciate and take on board both. Comms with all three girls had been genuinely wholly positive up until these points. To be honest part of me but perhaps not a big enough part, realised there was a fair chance my being luke warm or expressing some dissatisfaction with being messed around a bit or taken a bit far in a joke, was they may well not own much responsibility and take the easier road off.

 

But each time I felt I had to stand my ground at that point and convey that it's not entirely cool to mess people around like that. I guess when you haven't met it's very easy to bail. It was like a push back and test. I wasn't so desperate that I was going to keep being flaked on. I value your time, my time, be considerate. I mean what would they say of a guy that got flaky on a scheduled date the day before, or hours before. With no apology he'd often be deemed a bad guy im sure.

 

I accept on my side though I could've worded it more gently in each occasion. But it's hard to separate being messed around from prior times to repeats, you naturally build a slight intolerance.

 

I've experienced a girl miss a train and feel awful for missing a date in the phone. That's something out of her control. Neither of these girls had the decency to consider they may not make a scheduled date. Not apologise. I dunno it just seems there's an attitude of some especially with high volune OLD, there's loads more, it's fine to mess some around. No, actually, it never is. Just as you wouldn't want it done you.

 

That said I also need to lighten up aswell.

Edited January 5, 2018 by BryanSmiley

[d0nnivain]

Then work on your diplomacy but there is no need to compromise your boundaries

[clia]

I don't think you did anything wrong in the first two situations. Those girls just weren't that into you, since they both made plans basically on top of the plans you had, and the second girl flaked several times. So, no loss there.

 

The third situation I think you overreacted. Banter can be tough over text, and I think it's wise to not assume the worst about someone before you've met them in person.

[BryanSmiley]

I don't think you did anything wrong in the first two situations. Those girls just weren't that into you, since they both made plans basically on top of the plans you had, and the second girl flaked several times. So, no loss there.

 

The third situation I think you overreacted. Banter can be tough over text, and I think it's wise to not assume the worst about someone before you've met them in person.

 

That's a fair summary. The 2nd one funnily enough is back in touch. And she wanted to continue forwards with the original date. But I didn't think it was reasonable to drive 30 mins for a 30 min date, in the same pub she'd then meet her friend, to then drive 30 mins home again. I thought the phone date was a good compromise. I teased her for forgetting and she kinda expressed regret. But even then it seemed more like, oh isn't it funny how bad I am forgetting, my loss, I want to meet you. Ere yes but also hello, that's my evening ruined!!??

 

The 3rd girl your right and I'm actually a tad annoyed with myself. But if I was joking around and a girl said that's too far, I would just reign it in and say sorry. I would also still give them a fair chance in person. This girl did none of these things. It seems a bit of a privileged I do no wrong attitude which is very unbecoming of a person. Oh well.

[jjgitties]

Hmmm.. OP.. I worry about this attitude of "got to stand my ground".. and how it comes across via texting.

 

What ground are you standing or trying to defend exactly? You have never seen or even met these women. They are not even real people until you actually meet them. There are just text on a screen. Maybe I am missing something.

 

Maybe its good to get into the mind set and assume that these women aren't sitting around texting and conversing with just you. Assume they are doing it with 20 other guys and scheduling and coordinating their time according and picking the one to go out with that best suites them.

Edited January 5, 2018 by jjgitties

[Maggie4]

I don't think you were unfair to be upset when someone flakes. But when called out, with 1, you said "no worries", and with 3, you apologized? You react then doubt yourself? I can tell you that on LS my posts I estimate are misunderstood a good 70% of the time, and no emotions are even involved here. That's simply the nature of these things. I probably read my own experiences into your post as well. I've known guys who get upset then decides to "tolerate" me for a date anyway, that's wasting my time. If you become unhappy, either don't say anything so you can wait and see, or you end all contact. Don't show annoyance then still continue. That doesn't work cos you don't have a relationship until you meet a few times.

[carhill]

OP, good on ya for detailed analysis; however, try to simplify. Feel your boundaries and, if a dating dynamic is banging into them, no need to do a UNSC meeting. Just tell them it isn't working out and move on. Where did I learn this? Dozens to hundreds of women! I came to really appreciate their clear and decisive 'get lost bozo' approach. Practice it.

[BarbedFenceRider]

^^exactly. No more apologizing, no more glad-handing them. Just drop them. When your "icon" deletes from their phones, they will get it!

 

The next time a girl flakes out, go to the pub anyway. I have always found interesting girls at the place where I was stood up. Got real phone numbers and real second dates that didn't flake...

[Popsicle]

1 and 2 are just flakes. It happens with online dating. 3, I think she wanted you to text her more.

[BryanSmiley]

So an update to this. Girl 2 we eventually set up another date attempt for the 3rd time now. I text the day before confirming the time with a question mark, heard nothing. Called during Saturday day time, no answer. I eventually got hold of her on Messenger and could see she’d seen my messages (unlike Whastapp, she has the setting so you can’t tell). She replied that she had major stuff going on at home and it wasn’t an easy time. At first I said “no worries, it’s just nice to be told. Hope it works out.” Then I thought and said; “no come on, it takes 2 seconds to notify someone and this is repeated now.” She sent a screenshot of her asking her boss to leave early as proof. I said look even if it’s true, you can take the time to send a few texts to your boss with a mixture of emoticons on, but you can’t take 2 seconds to notify someone you can’t meet them as planned. I’d text and called and she’d avoided so saw no excuse. Still no apology, so I said please don’t contact me, and blocked her. What an absolute time waster.

 

Girl 3 after some back and forth we’ve lined up a 2nd date. I said I probably overreacted in telling her she was over the line in one of her pre date text messages. We’ve joked about it. I still feel she was a little rude and hiding behind the “it’s just me, my sense of humour” and she could have met me more in the middle. But I’ve given the benefit of the doubt and recognised perhaps I was a tad touchy. However comm’s the past week has lead me wondering just how much is me, and if anything she’s doing more of what I indicated I felt was a little over the top so early on. She doesn’t initiate text conversations much anymore. I’ll give it a few days and then she’s quick to reply, and she’s hinted and someone else agreed, wanting me to text a fair bit. We tend to have an hourish conversation when I initiate by text every 4 days or so. She’s more guarded than before, and not as warm. It seems she’s keen to be cheeky and crack jokes, take the piss even more – to which I’m making a conscious effort not to bite and give back in jest. But at times it just feels like a race to the bottom with the mutual piss taking. Anyone get what I mean, to the point I still at times find it a little predictable and almost like constant tests. Last night I was on a dating app and found her on there again. Now she’d de-activated her account just after Christmas as we were talking a lot over that period and she had good hopes with myself. So I sent her a cheeky laughing face, just making light of the fact we were both back on this dating site – even though we have a 2nd date planned for the coming Sunday. She said yes I expected to bump into you on here sooner and did sign up again after our misunderstanding by text before the first date (which had otherwise gone okay). She asked if I was jealous. I said no, not really. She said she was talking to 1 guy and asked me. I said the same, talking to one girl. She seemed extra keen to know what I thought, I said look I suppose I’m a smidge jealous but were both free to talk to and date others. I found I was having to ask the questions a little more than usual but she would sometimes say a lot back and ask something back. However this one exchange really made me think, you know, I just don’t find that funny again. So we’d thrown some banter around, I jokingly asked her for some small toothpastes again from the dentists we both go to (coincidence). It was a well meant message and I’m sure she knew as much, just a bit of tongue in cheek. She responded; “You’ll get what you’re given you cheeky little f*cker”. And then went on to joke about the boys talking to her on the dating site.

 

Now, having met her in person she is well meaning and not that cheeky. I know she’s a good soul. But, again, this just wasn’t funny to me. Even in person I cannot imagine her feeling okay to say those words and it truly coming off humorous. Perhaps a case of not realizing as such via text. I didn’t bite and brushed it off, said “Righto”. Then said, “you’re trying to make me jealous” with a laughing emoticon. Then I said have a good day WFH and good luck at the dentist. She said thanks and goodnight, and we exchanged a couple of cheeker messages.

 

How else would someone play this? I’ve met her and judge her to mean well, but for me if someone said they found the jokes/words a little too much for early on knowing someone - I’d take it on board and tone it down a bit with no problem. If anything she’s doubled down and I definitely sense any further remark about it would backfire and kill things dead in the water. Give it time and see how it goes in person on Sunday I guess. Would welcome anyone’s particular insights or advice.

[Cookiesandough]

The signs a girl is interested are not much different than a man. It's clear as day, but people don't want to accept it so they do mental gymnastics "maybe they're super busy...maybe the text didn't go through..." People need to stop being "tolerant" to people they don't even know and in some cases haven't even met. No need to bend over backwards for someone who isn't doing the same for you.

 

She is on a dating site and if she's there to actually date and she's interested in you, she will make time to go on a date with you. If she is really booked she'll suggest another time. Things do happen, so give one get away free flake card and if they use that card, drop them. Not another word from them. No matter how hot or great for you you have built this stranger in your mind to be. I can read from your posts that you do have slight boundary issues.

 

1. She suggested one day that was last minute/subject to change. How is that interest? Now you are blaming yourself because you didn't rearrange your life based upon this strangers whim and because when you suggested an alternative day she deleted you. She was clearly low interest all along.

 

2. She ghosted you for 2 weeks. Who knows what she was doing, but I sincerely you don't believe her phony phone excuse. Then she comes back, you accept her back. You plan a date, she flakes. She agree to a "phone date" wth??? Continues jerking you around You plan another date, she flakes. Then she gets snarky with you when you tell her you're tired of being flaked on and you're still confused if it was you.

 

3. You clearly felt offended by this person's humor but you chose to overlook that and take her on a date any way and when she said that your mismatched humor would cause problems you ignored this and tried to convince you and herself that you're ok with being disrespected.

Edited January 25, 2018 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redact full quote of immediately preceding post

[Cookiesandough]

*her and yourself

[BryanSmiley]

I do see what you're saying cookies but think there's some complicating factors, especially in today's OLD world. A lot of dating advice for men lately seems to suggest not over pursuing. The thing is with OLD, that many women and I've been told as much, are overwhelmed with the sheer volume of attention and/or options so by way of filtering and managing it, sit back more.

 

On 1+2 I mostly agree although on 1 I didn't suggest another time. I've taken a firmer line on flakiness and I think it put #1 off. To an extent #2 but in the end I've canned that one, I was definitely more than patient. It's disappointing quite how many girls make plans and are so inconsiderate about notifying or sticking to them. The 1 strike rule is probably fair, I know girls don't like being flaked on but I sense they think they'll be chased by the same guy or many others anyway if they do it. Just my experience, though I've dated some girls very good at being considerate, sticking to plans, and in fairness #3 is.

 

#3 initiated contact originally back in December and within a couple of days during the holidays we were texting a lot, she said she didn't want to be talking to anyone else, closed her account and focused her efforts on me. I could see as much on the site, and I continued to just use it a small amount. So the signs were there that she was very interested, in-fact we've explored all kinds of compatibility discussions such as travel plans, dating goals, kids, loosely and joked about it all - but with the view it's only worth it if were aligned.

 

I didn't overlook the joke she made, I was torn about just giving it the benefit of the doubt as a pre date text easily mis-read. But in an attempt to assert my boundaries I told her sometimes she was over the line, which was too firm a line I think. I should've mentioned something in person and been more subtle, I accept that. However I know I wasn't entirely wrong. As much as we've plans for a 2nd date now, she's being much cooler, is talking to other guys, the jokes are even more cheeky, sweary, and yeah she's just less warm. I do think the date Sunday will happen, she'll be warmer in person, and it'll go well. But again on the face of it I find the application a bit off. If someone suggests you reign in the swearing, cheeky jokes a tiny bit for awhile (only distasteful ones in my eyes), okay deem it a bit sensitive or whatever - but...take it on-board right!? It's the lack of introspection on her part and her behavior now which is if anything more so - that I find off, why double down? She's willing to let me do all the initiating now and I'm not a great deal, maybe twice a week. Beyond Sunday I'll not chase much which is a shame if she's convinced herself to take a sit back approach which was contrary to her original ways. I'll pursue up until the date, but sense beyond that will backfire. Essentially I think her defenses are up and she's no longer willing to be forthcoming. My take is just be cool, fun, cheeky on Sunday in person and possibly try to initiate something i.e. a kiss. Then leave the date saying something to the affect of, let me know when you wanna do something next. Then leave her be, not contact, to mull over everything and see if she's willing to drop the stubbornness and reach out again or not.

[Cookiesandough]

Bryansmiley, although I am just one woman who does OLD, I would still like to give my general perspective in hopes that in may help a little.

 

You are correct that most women are inundated with messages online. This will increase their pickiness. However, that doesn't mean they do not pick. When they are serious about dating, the pick the guy who most interests them and they tend to focus in on them.

 

When I am going through my OLD process, I am vetting guys and putting them in categories such as "HELL NAH" "NAH" "MEH, WE'LL SEE" "SORT OF INTERESTED" "VERY INTERESTED" "TAKE ME NOW".

 

My strong suspicion is that fellows who are having the most problems here are chasing after women who have placed them somewhere in-between the "meh, we'll see" or the "sort of interested" categories, leaning towards the first. Sometimes they will be in the "nah" category as well. But I'll say most people have an inkling of interest if they're talking to you.

 

However,you are still below the the "Very interested" and "PLEASE TAKE ME" category guys for these particular girls/women. Their main attention is on them. So you are chasing after these women and they are chasing after or talking to the guy's they are more interested in.

 

But you just want a date, right? Because you can prove how awesome you are on the date and she will totally forget the other guys once she sees that.

 

Optimistic, but the majority of the time, not reality. The reality has already made up her mind that there are other men out there that are better for her. So she will continue to show lukewarm interest.

 

I believe it is a misconception that women fall slowly and wooing women is a slow process of chivalry and persistence. Maybe for some, but the vast majority don't work this way. And just look at any dating board, the girl who is most crazy about the guy is not the one who dated the guy she was 'meh' about and he slowly grew on her. I'm not saying that don't take time to know for sure, but for the most part they are like men in that the initial "it" factor needs to be there or it won't take off or it will be lukewarm.

 

 

 

I highly suggest men need to realize the signals of high interest and low interest in women and avoid lukewarm women. By not doing so, you are already starting off the relationship on uneven footing. The power dynamic is very likely to get worse. If you are looking for relationship she may drag her feet on commitment or leave you wondering. She will feel at much more liberty taking advantage of you. There is a strong likelihood that even if you do nail down a woman who has 'meh' interest in you, and she knows or even believes there is a man in the "TAKE ME NOW" category, she will be keeping her eye out for him and one foot out the door. She may cheat on you.

 

If she is not that type of girl, but a nice girlm but she she has given up hope in landing that guy who really does it for her, she may settle into a comfort with you. It will be a bad dynamic for you. She won't be accommodating, much less adoring of you like a girl with high interest would, she will be sexually distant, again, making excuses and turning it around on you, probably accusing you of being a sex hound just because you want sex once a month. She won't be fully happy. She will always be wanting more...And after awhile you'll probably end up on dead bedrooms or survivinginfidelity wondering what happened. Please don't do this.

 

Focus on high interest girls. Now I get it, these girls are probably very desirable to you and the higher interest girls are less so. So what can you do as a man who is online dating. Get better pictures and work on your text/written communication game. That's it. Wishing you luck xx

[Cookiesandough]

Oh and one more thing I'd like to add that I'm glad you've been better at nexting girls who are just wasting time/setting firmer boundaries

[act00]

1 and 2 were flaky and not invested in meeting you, so you ended it. Fine. It sounds like you put in enough effort and even after meeting, it still wasn't "there," so you moved on.

 

#3 is what I'm wondering about. You seem judgmental and you don't like her sense of humor. Okay. I think you overstepped by criticizing her. I'm surprised she tried to give it a go. What I'm wondering about is YOUR "cheeky" ("pissy," "mickey"??) sense of humor. Are you a bit over the top? Are you leading the responses you're getting with your "cheekiness"...then being unhappy about the response you get? Maybe you need to dial back a little when meeting someone new. That's not to say you need to hide your personality, as you want someone compatible, but you don't need to be "all out there" right away either. A lot gets lost in text, particularly if you've never met. You seem to have personality clash and now she's talking to you about the other guys she's talking with, and maybe it's time to let this one go as well.

 

I'm wondering if waiting 3-4 days between communication is too long. You need to maintain some momentum, and if four days go by with no word, I'm more likely to think you're not interested and it's possible if something else comes up, it could become my priority. I think it's best to meet sooner over later, but if you have to push it out, maybe text and/or call a bit more frequently might be better. It's always hard to say what's too much or too little, but a little more frequency might serve you well.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I don't think you should stand your ground or call anyone out before you meet. If they don't meet your expectations just delete their number. It's too intense to have a go at someone at that point in time.

 

Secondly, one of the absolute worst things you can do is stand your ground, enforce a boundary, then back off and apologize. This makes you look weak and slightly desperate and is way worse than not enforcing a boundary.

 

For example, when I did OLD if someone flaked once on the first meeting without clear and immediate reschedule, I deleted their number and never spoke to them again, without explaining a thing.

[Arieswoman]

BryanSmiley,

First of all I don't think you did anything wrong and you should be congratulated for setting better boundaries.

 

However, I wonder about all this texting that people seem to do nowadays? Why does no-one pick up a phone and actually talk one-to-one ?

 

When you text a lot of the subtle nuances are lost, you can't here the tone of voice, or inflections in speech. This lays both parties open to misunderstandings.

 

Example;

When I was OLD I said in my profile that I was a 'professional business lady'. I spoke to a guy on the 'phone and in the conversation he said more than once "of course you're 'professional' aren't you?"

He said it in a sarcastic manner. The first time I ignored it, because I wasn't sure how to interpret it.

The second time I said "Obviously that's a problem to you, so perhaps we'd better not continue this conversation. Goodbye." And I hung up.

 

If I had been texting then I might have taken it as a compliment - see what I mean?

 

Just my 6penneth.

 

You need to crack a few eggs to make an omlette, as they say

[BryanSmiley]

Some really good points made here from all, thanks, I'll try to run through as it runs down.

 

Cookies; I follow that filtering process insight and I guess that's not too different to men. I suppose what I've learnt is personally, to be more fussy or go on gut feeling. But it reduces the numbers drastically. And one girl I initially persevered comm's with after a day suddenly starting messaging loads and we met soon after. It wasn't initially hugely distinguishable from the 10+ girls whom are also slow to respond or don't say much. Yet it quickly developed into something much more. I also think back to my original point, that even if there's 5 guys in the high category, a girl often feels she can still take a back seat and 1/2 of them in particular will make the decision for her and initiate more comm's to which she can just respond to those. It's in direct conflict with the somewhat valid advice, don't over pursue or invest in people whom aren't meeting somewhere near to half way.

 

So it's not always easy to know when to ride it out and give every opportunity, or when to give up after a few messages/an invite. Matching type OLD aside, the free communication ones have key benefits/negatives in light of the filtering process that's really interesting psychologically. I'm 34 and have had a good run of experience, and can get physical attention in my general life before too long, usually. Course I probably sound arrogant now, but it's not, I am genuinely looking for serious only really - with OLD. So if I see a stunning girl on OLD I really take view of her look, if she's pouting, what her profile says. I guess ultimately what I'm saying is one of the biggest turn off's for me is someone that's too wrapped up with their looks, too serious, or will likely just play a defensive dating style because they might even have 5 "Take me now" and 8 "Very interested" guys messaging them. So without seeming pessimistic, what is the point? It becomes a sort of self indulgent parade which I'm not interested in, and perhaps a lot of us like that attention too much. But from experience (as there's still to varying degrees views that men should initiate/lead) many women simply lapping up the attention. Many whom think they are serious about dating but really it's just an ego game, and thus they behave without courtesy with no fear for losing touch with people or placing value, because it's a constant stream of people around the corner. GIGS essentially. I'm not saying it's not true of some men. Not for a second, were all human. But much less due to the 'man initiating, being the leaders, pursuers of the genders still in some peoples eyes to different extents. I personally think in this day and age, it should be totally 50/50. In terms of willingness to initiate on OLD, initiate comm's on another day. The closer both are to 50/50 the healthier from my experience, with some things like asking for a date etc. still on the guys side etc. But this isn't how many women feel or are willing to behave like, for many reasons - 1 of which volume of traffic.

 

act00; Girl 1 was at least saying sorry if I'm not back in time etc. but I'm hoping so, who knows if I'd have left it at no worries let me know tomorrow or another time. Instead in asserting boundaries I pissed her off. Girl 2, from texts and on the phone, she seemed pretty interested. Yes someone may have come along, or an ex is in the background. Girl 3 is the tricky one because she has displayed strong signs of interest and there was a mishap which has totally shifted the power balance in her favour. The early banters were micky taking both ways but in a much more friendly way. For instance I was getting ready to dress up as a surfer for NYE so she was taking the piss out of my outfit etc. She fell over on NYE and I took the mick a little. But I always felt she was going that bit further, and sometimes just taking the mick just to, sort of test me or press buttons - for her enjoyment. Now perhaps typical female tests for a guys test of strength, character. But it's tricky to know how to get the balance right in return. In trying to for once say, that one was a bit below the belt, it's dramatically reduced her warmness towards me. So, what to do in those early phases? I'm going to as I say try to give the benefit of the doubt and just put a good show of myself in person on Sunday if it happens. I'm confident I can do that and she'll be less harsh in person. But then, why be that way in text? If you don't swear much in person, don't do it from behind a keyboard - ya know!? Plenty of advice is not to over pursue and I've made that mistake before, sometimes under pursued. But I honestly feel given she's shown willing to initiate, I should not encourage this power shift and her complacency, by her relying on the fact I'll always reach out to her before long. I'm not as in the wrong as she'd made out, I value myself and am not moving beyond the 20% I already have, perhaps too much to give this another chance. And yes, the don't fall back and apoligise after asserting boundary point is valid. But I was being a responsible guy and apologising for my harshness. I would hope in a theoretical world if we get to date 5, she'd say...hey, thanks for your patience, on reflection I was a bit harsh.

Eternal Sunshin & Aries; Thanks, totally recognised, and valid points, think I've covered above!

[BryanSmiley]

Small update on #3. Had what I thought was one of the best dates I’ve been on. Played crazy golf, had dinner, a couple of drinks, spent 5 hours together on date 2, a lot of flirting, touching, conversation both light and deep. When I dropped her off around 9pm I was tempted to go for the kiss but she just pecked. I then said to myself, brace for the worst then, un-expectedly. An hour later she text to say had a great day, enjoys being around me, our banter, but just isn’t feeling it romantically at this stage but would love to be friends. I found it surprising because I’ve been on dates and had noway near such a good time, as much flirting, and the girl has been keen to meet again, I have/haven’t depending. But I just said that’s a shame, let me know if you change your mind. Not much I can do really. Just surprising given the amount of comm’s, time we spent, laughing, fliting, innuendo’s, she was making jokes about our future grandchildren. Meh not a lot that can be done really, but it’s so easy to pin the rejection to other negative dating experiences and feel the stars are aligned against you, it’s a horrid feeling. I’d made a real effort to be light hearted, fun, firm, flirty, optimistic, only for those nagging suppressed doubts being brought right to the surface again. Dating is exhausting quite often.

[road]

In trying to set firmer boundaries I find it sometimes tricky to get the balance right and can over do it, albeit with the good intention of avoiding wasted time and investment on both sides.

 

Whilst I had a couple of positive, easy first dates in the latter part of last year (I just wasn't keen enough or we weren't quite a match) it reassured me how easy and friendly it CAN at times be. Albeit unfortunately from experience certainly with online dating, all too rarely.

 

With so many time wasters and flakiness I find it difficult to differentiate them from the genuine, conscientious people whom are genuinely looking to talk, meet people - not just get attention.

 

I had as many slightly negative experiences of first dates last year as I did positive, and I wanted to summarise the negative ones to get peoples perspectives. All of these I met on OLD and within a day exchanged numbers and talked a bit - to a fair bit on Whatsapp.

 

1. Set a date for the coming Sunday with a girl. Exchanged texts maybe once during the week but not huge amount of comm's, but a venue was agreed and time. The day before I text to confirm. She said she'd let me know on the day now as she had plans before hand which might carry on. She still seemed keen. I replied that I had arranged my day (with family) to suit, so perhaps it's better we just do another time now. She replied she's sorry if she'd pissed me off. I said no worries, have a good day tomorrow and let me know when's a better time. She then proceeded to delete my number (I could tell as her icon disappeared, which only originally appeared once she'd saved me on her phone). End of comm's. Now I didn't make a big deal of it but I felt it fair as it was the day before our confirmed plans, to just mention I'd arranged my day around our plans - to which she obviously took issue with. Fair?

 

2. Talked quite a bit with a girl on whatsapp towards the beginning of December. She was excited to have been matched with someone and never really does OLD, was excited to meet me. A couple of nights later I messaged enquiring what she was doing on a couple of nights. To which I had no reply, and couldn't tell if she'd read them. Fast forward 2 weeks later just before Christmas, she messages saying sorry she's been off the radar, had issues with her phone, was I free on Thursday for a drink which would be nice. I agreed, picked a pub, a time, set. Thursday comes, I message her about 7pm. She replies sh* sh*t, it's Thursday, I'm meeting a friend at 9pm. I laughed via messages and said look by the time I get there and leave we'll only have half an hour, so lets meet another time. How about we just have a little phone date. So we did, had a nice 20 minute chat, all very positive. Exchanged messages every few nights and then agreed to try and meet on the evening of New years day. She said she should be free, and I think said she'd confirm on the day. Day came and went, no comm's. I then messaged her the other night saying we seem to be struggling to meet. She posted a laughing smiley, that she was really hungover, did I have a good NYE. I said yes. I thought to myself this girl went off the radar for 2-3 weeks, missed a date, then kinda missed another, but I didn't get the impression she took much onus. So I politely said look if were not going to meet perhaps its best we just leave it. She said "Are you being grumpy pops". I said no but I'm sure we don't wish to waste each-others time, so all the best". No further comm's. Fair?

 

3. Talking to a girl quite a lot on message over the Christmas period. Talked about a lot of things in our circumstances, she deleted her OLD profile as was happy just talking to and lining up a date with me. So before our date last night were messaging, and the whole time we'd messaged I did get the feeling a couple of times she was taking jokes too far. Almost like, she was defaulting to the cheeky, micky taking path needlessly on every topic - just to appear amusing. I'd bitten my tongue til this point and teased around back. Anyway an hour before the date I merely asked if she'd eaten, as she'd just come out of the dentists after work and was meeting me. It was a kind thought on my part that she was 30 mins from home and she admitted she hadn't eaten for ages but would get something later on the way home. She then went on to say, and I'm sure it was jokingly but I felt in poor taste "You never know how first dates are gonna go, don't wanna be waiting for food and there's awkward silences, I mean I've basically been carrying our conversations ". Now, the last part even though I knew she was joking as I'd given as good as I'd gotten. I just felt it was in poor taste. I delayed responding for 20 mins to think it over. It still just didn't sit quite right with me. I messaged back, "listen I love our banter and am looking forward to a nice couple of drinks with you. But perhaps sometimes you're overstepping the line a bit there for someone you don't know. Let's just have a nice eve". She responded woah, and how she found it contradictory, no apology. I then felt the need to apologise for perhaps over reacting. Went on the date and had a nice couple of hours, good chat, but I just knew the text had left her firmly putting her barriers up. We made light of the text exchange, she dropped me home after. But via text afterwards as expected she said she had a great time but would be worrying if she's overstepped the line all the time. I said I'm sorry for the misunderstanding and overreaction but aside from this, it wasn't a huge issue. She just didn't seem to own it was possibly a tad rude and be able to move on. I perhaps shoulda bit my tongue and worded it better, but I felt I'd already done that a few times. I said I understand and don't think it's a big issue, all the best and let me know if you change your mind. Fair?

 

 

 

You never have a date by talking on phone.

 

You never get to know someone talking on the phone.

 

You do not know how to ask a woman out on a date.

 

What is all this asking for a date a week or more ahead of

time?

 

You ask mid week for a date on Friday night or for Saturday.

 

When you ask a woman out you set the date and the time

that you will pick her up. No need to have dates on the

phone prior to this date. No need to confirm that the date

is still on.

 

If you the woman requires that you confirm the date then

you do not have a date with her.

 

As to Woman #3, why pick a fight with her on the phone

before the date. You do not argue about her sense of humor.

To do that before the first date is insulting to her.