Do you start to become out of step?

[GemmaUK]

The question I have is this, if my body language is good enough and I look good enough, would I get approached?

You would garner more interest but probably not get approached. As you already know from reading others posts here it's pretty much always still a man's job to approach.

 

Its easy not to be too lonely, just do more work!

Yes.

 

I think you have missed some of the point, I am always kind and well mannered even if the person sitting across from me isn't my cup of tea.

No, I didn't miss the point at all. You become dismissive and this will show ALL OVER your face. You are not looking at your own face so cannot see it but it comes over to the other person as most likely contempt or anger -it can be the briefest flicker of either of those emotions shown and then the follow up to confirm will be more flickers of those expressions and eyes beginning to look elsewhere along with a whole other set of possibilities, movements involving the hands, a shoulder, arms, seated position. It all adds up.

All are limbic movements which you can control. I know this stuff for a fact as I observe this stuff and use it myself every moment of the day when I am in company anywhere.

You have to remember also that women, as girls are brought up to be nice to people - the way we learn is by reading body language and facial expressions.

You say you like to not agree always with a date and if during a date she says something you don't agree with and you 'drop a facial expression' over something she will see' game over' written all over you. The women you did like for whom it never went to a second date will have seen this.

The art of debate, healthy debate about subjects people disagree on is not to drop that face. What it conveys is respect towards that person's opinion and a willingness to talk it out and likely agree to disagree or even reach some points of agreement.

 

I have been reading a bit about body language, there are a few basic things that one can do but I suspect my problem lies also with my inability to relate to people and vice versa.

'Reading a bit' is not enough.

The reason I have been suggesting this over and over and over to you is to fast track your learning of the subject of learning and reading facial expressions and learning and using body language and facial expressions in your favour.

 

There is far too much in intricacies for me to explain it all to you myself.

learning it though will help you in terms of relating to people, getting people to like you a lot faster, learning whether to approach someone and learning when not to and will help with knowing what to do to create sexual tension too.

 

I've suggested to you a long old time ago a TV show to watch called Lie To Me with an English lead actor Tim Roth which is all about Paul Ekman's work on micro-expressions - those flickered expressions. You can google him but watching the show explains it in action.

I also, a long time ago recommended to you a book called Love Signals by David Givens.

This show and this book would be good places to start.

I also suggested back in November/December the use of a mirror so that you can see your resting face (not in public) - did you get yourself a little pocket mirror?

If all you are doing is typing 'body language' into google you're going to find a whole load of stuff written by people who aren't experts - it's next to useless.

 

You have continually said you can't read people and that people don't like you upon meeting you so I will re-iterate - I am trying to give you a fast track way to learn this stuff. This is stuff all of us who started to meet people and date in our teens and twenties have learned bits and pieces of organically along the way. You could take the opportunity to learn this stuff properly and quickly and practice, practice, practice.

We are all still practising this stuff all the time in every interaction we have.

 

On a side note, you would see no one in relationships in your area if the pickings of people are as terrible as you say.

[ZA Dater]

You would garner more interest but probably not get approached. As you already know from reading others posts here it's pretty much always still a man's job to approach.

 

 

Yes.

 

 

No, I didn't miss the point at all. You become dismissive and this will show ALL OVER your face. You are not looking at your own face so cannot see it but it comes over to the other person as most likely contempt or anger -it can be the briefest flicker of either of those emotions shown and then the follow up to confirm will be more flickers of those expressions and eyes beginning to look elsewhere along with a whole other set of possibilities, movements involving the hands, a shoulder, arms, seated position. It all adds up.

All are limbic movements which you can control. I know this stuff for a fact as I observe this stuff and use it myself every moment of the day when I am in company anywhere.

You have to remember also that women, as girls are brought up to be nice to people - the way we learn is by reading body language and facial expressions.

You say you like to not agree always with a date and if during a date she says something you don't agree with and you 'drop a facial expression' over something she will see' game over' written all over you. The women you did like for whom it never went to a second date will have seen this.

The art of debate, healthy debate about subjects people disagree on is not to drop that face. What it conveys is respect towards that person's opinion and a willingness to talk it out and likely agree to disagree or even reach some points of agreement.

 

 

'Reading a bit' is not enough.

The reason I have been suggesting this over and over and over to you is to fast track your learning of the subject of learning and reading facial expressions and learning and using body language and facial expressions in your favour.

 

There is far too much in intricacies for me to explain it all to you myself.

learning it though will help you in terms of relating to people, getting people to like you a lot faster, learning whether to approach someone and learning when not to and will help with knowing what to do to create sexual tension too.

 

I've suggested to you a long old time ago a TV show to watch called Lie To Me with an English lead actor Tim Roth which is all about Paul Ekman's work on micro-expressions - those flickered expressions. You can google him but watching the show explains it in action.

I also, a long time ago recommended to you a book called Love Signals by David Givens.

This show and this book would be good places to start.

I also suggested back in November/December the use of a mirror so that you can see your resting face (not in public) - did you get yourself a little pocket mirror?

If all you are doing is typing 'body language' into google you're going to find a whole load of stuff written by people who aren't experts - it's next to useless.

 

You have continually said you can't read people and that people don't like you upon meeting you so I will re-iterate - I am trying to give you a fast track way to learn this stuff. This is stuff all of us who started to meet people and date in our teens and twenties have learned bits and pieces of organically along the way. You could take the opportunity to learn this stuff properly and quickly and practice, practice, practice.

We are all still practising this stuff all the time in every interaction we have.

 

On a side note, you would see no one in relationships in your area if the pickings of people are as terrible as you say.

 

 

 

So this morning I had the perfect opportunity to try some of this out, its a friend so she is never going to be into me so I have nothing to loose. She didn't want to stay for breakfast, I simply order told her she was going to, she smiled at me and ordered. "You are staying for breakfast, the question are you ordering it or am I" I think I used something along those lines.

 

 

Sure, there is a lot to read about body language, keeping a softer expression, smiling a bit, generally showing oneself to be loose as apposed to being uptight. Again I tried some of that, on top of being more assertive. The kicker is I know her well so I know she isn't going to run for the hills and I could try some of this without "well I hope I don't mess it up".

 

 

What I did do, another friend of mine brought up her bf and usually I am quite indifferent to this, for some reason this time it did get to me and probably for once I didn't usually give the non emotive response I normally did, I surprised myself with that to be honest. Oh Gemma, I accomplished this was a facial expression. What was surprising was she didn't have much good to say about him after that.

 

 

Granted I think perhaps there might be something to body language but that assumes I find anyone who interests me in the first place.

[GemmaUK]

And nothing you did was too uncomfortable nor completely out of character was it?

It felt good didn't it?!!

 

Thing is too that I know you are not ugly, you get picked out by people on tinder which is just photos so you are not ugly and not unattractive.

 

Granted I think perhaps there might be something to body language but that assumes I find anyone who interests me in the first place.

This bit in bold - hold your horses, read up, do that research - seriously.

Because when you can read someone much better you can often see things in them which are not apparent from a first look or a first meet.

It's 'possible potential' that you can learn to see. You will get to a point where you see it but have some patience to give yourself time to learn this stuff and try it out like you just have started to do.

You won't ever be able to totally read everyone and not everyone will like you or vice versa but you will have a lot more control over a situation the more you can read it, read them and adjust things about yourself accordingly just like you did today.

 

The reason I have kept on at you and kept nagging about this body language subject is because I know you have potential.

And yes, there is something in it - all this body language stuff!

[ZA Dater]

And nothing you did was too uncomfortable nor completely out of character was it?

It felt good didn't it?!!

 

Thing is too that I know you are not ugly, you get picked out by people on tinder which is just photos so you are not ugly and not unattractive.

 

 

This bit in bold - hold your horses, read up, do that research - seriously.

Because when you can read someone much better you can often see things in them which are not apparent from a first look or a first meet.

It's 'possible potential' that you can learn to see. You will get to a point where you see it but have some patience to give yourself time to learn this stuff and try it out like you just have started to do.

You won't ever be able to totally read everyone and not everyone will like you or vice versa but you will have a lot more control over a situation the more you can read it, read them and adjust things about yourself accordingly just like you did today.

 

The reason I have kept on at you and kept nagging about this body language subject is because I know you have potential.

And yes, there is something in it - all this body language stuff!

 

 

 

I think in some respects you could use body language as a tool, perhaps subtle manipulation. My problem is being too shy and too measured in the way I do things, I can be very assertive but being nice comes more easily than being assertive.

 

 

I am going to try doing more of the latter and see what happens. One unfortunate thing did happen yesterday is I inadvertently put my hand of cards down on the table with someone so my "game" is know well known, not that it ever was much of a secret to begin with.

 

 

That aside you mention potential which is very nice, thank you. Perhaps what I don't mention is its never the photogenic people picking me out on Tinder.... I am slim, tall, athletic and its always the opposite of that which finds me attractive.

 

 

What was one of the benefits of trying things yesterday was to see different reactions. Admittedly the unknowing test case is someone I know well but also someone completely unavailable so I could just try anything.

[ZA Dater]

The reason I have kept on at you and kept nagging about this body language subject is because I know you have potential.

And yes, there is something in it - all this body language stuff!

 

 

 

Do you think you could win someone over with body language?

 

 

Just take this from whence it comes, someone who is feeling particularly miserable at the moment as the loneliest day of the year beckons.

 

 

Is it worth simply trying anything vaguely friendly in terms of body language, sure winking is probably too overt and suggestive.

 

 

At the moment I am resisting going back to "oh take anyone out who will go out with me" Your comment about a goal was a good one and I think about that often but do you think I am being realistic? Should I be going out with people who show some sort of interest in me?

 

 

Here is the thing, most people don't ever show any interest and this applies to online and in person so I just feel this monumental pressure to try and make them show interest or woo them and of late I am just not seeing the point in doing this, should I be doing this?

 

 

Each time its like me trying to squeeze water from a rock and sure I know I need to be assertive which is find but a case in point, talking to someone on Tinder, day 3 so far and I don't find myself wanting a date, I steered the direction that way but she was non committal and I don't really know if I find her attractive, the thing is she seems the best of a less than attractive bunch.

 

 

What should my goal here be?

 

 

You say I don't volunteer information but I am going to do that now, ever since I was in HS I always had this ideal, for most guys that's an ideal look for me it was simply that intelligent, rounded person someone to give me a challenge and I have found those people but very seldom, for me its attractive for someone to get into a big debate with me and hold their ground, make me think a bit. I don't know everything, nobody does but the thing is with this its so so hard to find these people.

 

 

I suppose the other flip side of it is its incredibly easy for me to flip into the negative which I try not to do but when I look around me, especially on 14 Feb each year I just feel very negative about the whole thing.

 

 

Last Sat night I went out and tried to carry myself a different way, look around, keep a softer overall look but all the time my mind works, I see someone pretty but dismiss them as taken (which is probably true 99.9% of the time), its very easy for me to rationalise all of this, find some justification for it but deep down I know I crave that interaction. However, the issue there is I don't often get that stimulating interaction or any sort of interest.

 

 

I basically walk through life alone, nobody really actually asks me anything about me, I ask about them but few ask about me.

 

 

Then there is my preference for trying to accomplish the near impossible, the harder the challenge the more attractive it is to me, which again is probably why whether someone is taken or not is irrelevant in my mind, to me most people are taken, at least all the ones I would want to be with. So what ends up happening is I chase metaphorical ghosts, situations where I morally shouldn't be chasing at all. It was the same with the co worker I chased for 3 years, I still think about her and last week I thought about getting in contact again. I didn't but I thought about it.

 

 

Compliments, I be sure to compliment people but I can count how many times I have been complimented. Surely those scales are incorrectly balanced?

 

 

Perhaps in the back of my mind I always knew this whole dating thing would be very hard, from the first time I was rejected in front of a crowd of people to the valentines day gifts for which I never even so much as got a thank you for, to virtually every horrid dating experience. The best experienced have usually been with people who I deem to be virtually unattainable because they aren't single.

[GemmaUK]

I think in some respects you could use body language as a tool, perhaps subtle manipulation. My problem is being too shy and too measured in the way I do things, I can be very assertive but being nice comes more easily than being assertive.

 

 

I am going to try doing more of the latter and see what happens. One unfortunate thing did happen yesterday is I inadvertently put my hand of cards down on the table with someone so my "game" is know well known, not that it ever was much of a secret to begin with.

 

 

That aside you mention potential which is very nice, thank you. Perhaps what I don't mention is its never the photogenic people picking me out on Tinder.... I am slim, tall, athletic and its always the opposite of that which finds me attractive.

 

 

What was one of the benefits of trying things yesterday was to see different reactions. Admittedly the unknowing test case is someone I know well but also someone completely unavailable so I could just try anything.

 

You're missing the point of body language.

It's not some deceitful manipulation tactic, it can be used that way if the end point is to con people out of their cash but I'm talking everyday life body language. The type you have a little knowledge of and tried out. You saw a different reaction, you interacted much more socially than you normally would.

The point also is not to only read the body language of nor employ approachable body language with those you might want to date - it's to use with anyone, anywhere as I and many others have said all along.

 

Learning about it, reading about it and practising it is meant to be a fast track to becoming more social all round with others so that you get plenty of practice and it becomes part of who you are.

Changing one thing right now without any knowledge is not going to suddenly get you a date or a relationship. It's going to take time to get there even though this is a fast track way to learn. But as you have already seen, small changes made can absolutely incur an instantly better reaction from people.

 

Body language (or non verbal communication) accounts for the majority of human interactions. See the link.

Body Language Classes, Research, and Consulting | Nonverbal Group | NYC

 

You need to get doing some research on it, understanding what's behind it.

I cannot explain it all to you on a forum even though I have studied the subject. Without you doing the groundwork for yourself though there is no way I or others on here can help because you won't have learned how to read others which is something you say you cannot do at all just now.

 

You have however seen two 100& positive reactions from using body language in your favour so far. Knowing you that should be enough to spur you on to do the groundwork and learn about the subject.

[Moves Like Jagger]

ZA Dater, I was reading another post in another forum. It's much easier to attract woman of beauty through cold approach than online if you're a regular guy. I think that you hit your ceiling through online dating. Part of the reason your first dates are flat is because you're not wildly attracted to the women you meet through online dating. You're meeting plain janes instead of the photogenic women. The plain janes can you see that you're not excited because you are not leading so they respond by ghosting out after the first dates. I notice a difference in the type of women I date online versus outside the Internet.A moderator in that same forum who is better looking than me also noticed a difference in the quality in women that he met through online dating versus the women he meets outside of the Internet. Women who are just above-average in looks like Selena Gomez or Milana Vayntrub are impossible to attract online because they are flooded with messages. However, outside the Internet, they will give you a chance if you have style and a confident, social vibe.

 

Regarding trying to get women to approach you, I got more success by improving my style instead of my body language. If you dress edgy women will compliment you or you will hear them talk positively about you.

 

Regarding another issue, I think you should consider going to a psychologist. You said that you have problems showing emotions or reading people. That's a big warning that you need to ask a psychologist to test you for certain things. I don't want to name the disorder because it's a big no-no to diagnose people. It's just that you seem really rigid and you have problems with emotions. You also seem to dwell on irrelevant things like not drinking or the unfairness of dating when there are bigger issues like your vibe and people skills.

 

Another big issue I see is that you have a hard time learning from your mistakes. Instead of realizing that women are turned off by boring, interview dates, you keep on doing the same thing over and over. You also don't put a lot of time practicing your communications skills and vibe when you're not out on a date.

[ZA Dater]

ZA Dater, I was reading another post in another forum. It's much easier to attract woman of beauty through cold approach than online if you're a regular guy. I think that you hit your ceiling through online dating. Part of the reason your first dates are flat is because you're not wildly attracted to the women you meet through online dating. You're meeting plain janes instead of the photogenic women. The plain janes can you see that you're not excited because you are not leading so they respond by ghosting out after the first dates. I notice a difference in the type of women I date online versus outside the Internet.A moderator in that same forum who is better looking than me also noticed a difference in the quality in women that he met through online dating versus the women he meets outside of the Internet. Women who are just above-average in looks like Selena Gomez or Milana Vayntrub are impossible to attract online because they are flooded with messages. However, outside the Internet, they will give you a chance if you have style and a confident, social vibe.

Regarding trying to get women to approach you, I got more success by improving my style instead of my body language. If you dress edgy women will compliment you or you will hear them talk positively about you.

Regarding another issue, I think you should consider going to a psychologist. You said that you have problems showing emotions or reading people. That's a big warning that you need to ask a psychologist to test you for certain things. I don't want to name the disorder because it's a big no-no to diagnose people. It's just that you seem really rigid and you have problems with emotions. You also seem to dwell on irrelevant things like not drinking or the unfairness of dating when there are bigger issues like your vibe and people skills.

 

Another big issue I see is that you have a hard time learning from your mistakes. Instead of realizing that women are turned off by boring, interview dates, you keep on doing the same thing over and over. You also don't put a lot of time practicing your communications skills and vibe when you're not out on a date.

 

 

 

1:I would love to know how you accomplish this?

2:Very true with the proviso I can put up with average looks for far above average intellect and just being interesting and able to talk.

3:I had a make over and most say I dress well know but it doesn't seem to help much, as for confidence, you try being nearly 34 with gf and constant rejections, I'd have better odds finding oil in my backyard.

4: I put time into things I enjoy and time into things where there is some tangible reward for that time, spending time walking around trying to cold approach people doesn't really interest me at all versus spending time working on something that has some benefit for me, or where the odds of benefit are better. I'll try body language with no real expectation of success, purely because what I like and what I can get might as well be on different planets.

 

 

I think success for me would be having someone nice interested in me and not me having to grovel to make them interested in me, I am just disinterested in doing that.

 

 

Lessons, I have learnt many but most of which are around my over compromising trying to find people attractive I don't find attractive and the other being putting effort into people I have no real chance with, which basically leaves me nowhere.

 

 

I think as time goes on and I have less and less success and find fewer and fewer people who interest me dating goes from "I want this" to "nice to have but I want material items more", or "nice to have I'd prefer a hook up to get some experience" which is basically where I am now.

 

 

My grand plan always was to try make myself desirable but the enormous challenge this presented was something I underestimated, for years I thought being a good person counted for something but the more time I spend trying to find people the more I realise it actually counts for nothing at all. What I found really is I the polar opposite to what people seem to want.

 

 

I am all game for playing around with body language, at least I might retain some interest in doing something challenging even if there are no results to speak of.

 

 

As for drinking, two day old interaction.

 

 

Me: do you like dinner dates, coffee dates, activity dates

Her: I like drinking so definitely dinner dates

Me: That's great but I don't drink

Her: Why is that

Me: Because I am training for a cycle race and while I have drank before I didn't enjoy it.

 

 

Conversation died shortly afterwards.

 

 

As I say its 14 Feb and everyone is getting gifts, everyone has gf's and wives around me and I sit here. Such is life.

[ZA Dater]

You have however seen two 100& positive reactions from using body language in your favour so far. Knowing you that should be enough to spur you on to do the groundwork and learn about the subject.

 

 

 

Does it count as positive if the person isn't single haha.

[ZA Dater]

Just really venting here.

 

 

So I tried something else today, purely because I just feel extremely lonely and hopeless today.

 

 

Went to a meeting with a friend of mine, he has no issue getting dates, the next more beautiful than the last, every single one of them is gorgeous.

 

 

He says to me "we need to get you laid" "you know the best girls aren't always the best looking".

 

 

Usually I would have let this go and changed the subject.

 

 

My comment was "yes easy to say for someone who always dates gorgeous people", quick back track on his side and I then changed the subject.

 

 

He had no Valentines date, finds one within 10 minutes.

 

 

Tried some body language at a yoga studio (was there for a meeting) and again he just has all this charm and charisma, I just feel all awkward and its just easier for me to leap into e mail and arrange the next meeting. I tried eye contact with 3 of the reception ladies but they were only interested in him.

 

 

I will desperately try read as much about body language as I can and try adapt but standing there I thought to myself "I have nothing to add here, all of you are stunning and your pick list is much better than me" and so it proved because all had dates.

 

 

This friend simply cannot relate to someone who battles, its so easy for him but I get "I get rejected too", I have known him years and that that's hardly ever the case.

[GemmaUK]

Does it count as positive if the person isn't single haha.

 

Of course it is!

It doesn't matter who the person is or whether they are single at all.

You're on a social learning curve so it's all practice.The more practice you get the better.

 

Post up the books you decide to get. I'd b interested to take a look.

[Imajerk17]

....

As for drinking, two day old interaction.

 

 

Me: do you like dinner dates, coffee dates, activity dates

Her: I like drinking so definitely dinner dates

Me: That's great but I don't drink

Her: Why is that

Me: Because I am training for a cycle race and while I have drank before I didn't enjoy it.

 

 

Conversation died shortly afterwards.

 

 

As I say its 14 Feb and everyone is getting gifts, everyone has gf's and wives around me and I sit here. Such is life.

 

ZA, how are you screening for your dates, whom you match with? The interaction you mentioned above is similar to the HUNDREDS of other interactions you have had on Tinder. Of course the interaction died out, you and she just aren't compatible.

 

It has been mentioned before on your threads, many many times. Basically on Tinder (IIRC) you keep making contact with women who are into going out and partying and that is just not you. While I DO think that you can afford to come across more fun and less uptight, I do NOT think these women will ever be a match for you. There are plenty of women in their 30s--your age--who are NOT into drinking and partying. Surely there are places/online dating sites that tend to attract women who are not into the bars and club scene and/or who are more intellectual.

 

As far as the body language thing and your "natural" friend...

 

--Eye contact is good, but it needs to be steady, RELAXED eye contact. If you are too nervous or intense or in general trying too hard with this stuff, that can be overwhelming and off-putting.

 

--On that note, see how else your friend carries himself. Chances are your friend is at ease with himself, which puts the women he interacts with, at ease. See how your friend jokes and banters with the women in the yoga studio.

 

--Also pay attention to how your friend banters not only with women but with the other guys there.

 

Anyway my thoughts for now...

Edited February 14, 2018 by Imajerk17

[ZA Dater]

Of course it is!

It doesn't matter who the person is or whether they are single at all.

You're on a social learning curve so it's all practice.The more practice you get the better.

 

Post up the books you decide to get. I'd b interested to take a look.

 

 

 

I must be honest I am mainly doing web searches at the moment, there is lots of info out there and its easy small digestible at a time info. My approach to learning has always been to read and then try something, granted this is much harder than anything I have tried before because I am constantly going against what I want to do and rather trying to do something different.

 

 

The other thing I try to do is have some sort of objective BUT the problem here is I need to actually connect with the person in some meaningful way and by that not be intimidated by them, which sounds pathetic because I can sit with the most successful people and not be intimidated but put in front of a good looking lady and it all falls apart quite quickly. I gain comfort from familiarity. See I am trying to volunteer more info, making a conscious effort to do so in fact.

 

 

People I like most are those I find that familiarity with quickly and I mean in minutes and for some odd reason that's very comforting.

 

 

The other perhaps weakness I have is that I think a lot and try work things out, like why K would contact me today at 7.30am in the morning to confirm an event which we discussed at length on Sunday. You might be pleased to know I decided to just say I didn't enjoy Vtines day but I hoped she has a special one. Normally I probably wouldn't not have said anything about my own feelings for something.

 

 

Truthfully I care a lot about many things/people but caring can sometimes make people perceive you as weak so while I do show it some of the time its easier to keep it to myself and let actions talk rather than words.

 

 

What I am really trying to do is adopt a calmer less intense expression, which is very, very difficult but I am trying, even as I sit here typing this. I don't have a lot of confidence to act on though, still figuring that out, success in something does give me some confidence but it seems very hard to manufacture fake dating success, whether I should contemplate that is a moot point.

 

 

In summary...I am trying but I still want some sort of impossible scenario because, well I like the unlikely.

[ZA Dater]

ZA, how are you screening for your dates, whom you match with? The interaction you mentioned above is similar to the HUNDREDS of other interactions you have had on Tinder. Of course the interaction died out, you and she just aren't compatible.

 

It has been mentioned before on your threads, many many times. Basically on Tinder (IIRC) you keep making contact with women who are into going out and partying and that is just not you. While I DO think that you can afford to come across more fun and less uptight, I do NOT think these women will ever be a match for you. There are plenty of women in their 30s--your age--who are NOT into drinking and partying. Surely there are places/online dating sites that tend to attract women who are not into the bars and club scene and/or who are more intellectual.

 

As far as the body language thing and your "natural" friend...

 

--Eye contact is good, but it needs to be steady, RELAXED eye contact. If you are too nervous or intense or in general trying too hard with this stuff, that can be overwhelming and off-putting.

 

--On that note, see how else your friend carries himself. Chances are your friend is at ease with himself, which puts the women he interacts with, at ease. See how your friend jokes and banters with the women in the yoga studio.

 

--Also pay attention to how your friend banters not only with women but with the other guys there.

 

Anyway my thoughts for now...

 

 

 

1: No argument there.

2: Again it isn't me but maybe I need to be that to get anything I vaguely want?

3: The problem is I cannot find these people anywhere, sure I can find 30's divorced with kids and dead end jobs. What I cannot find are dynamic, intelligent intellectual people, I have never ever managed to find many of these and when I do they aren't usually the whole package I am looking for, or MOSTLY they haven't been into me. What inevitably happens when I do find them is I do invest heavily in the pursuit and that's fine because it gives me some sort of balance, I can feel like I am trying to do something even if it is in the league of the impossible. The other problem with 30's people is they pretty much want kids immediately and that doesn't really interest me. I have thought about this a lot and my age range is probably 25-29.

 

 

One of the ultimately irritating things for me is not know how to do something, this is because every time I try something it goes really wrong for whatever reason, so there is a reluctance to try anything because every time I do the results are poor.

 

 

The majority of ladies don't connect with me at all, to the extent I get almost zero attention at all. I will admit I have been on paid dates aka seeking arrangement and those weren't any better but at least they were attractive so in some respects I enjoyed the purely superficial side of it but there was no intellectual connection at all.

 

 

Its quite special to meet someone who does give me a challenge intellectually and has the overall package I like, its very, very, very rare to find though.

 

 

Look I would be a very wild card choice, I will own up in the past I have chased pretty much all the people I liked weren't single and I often asked myself if they would actually leave their bf for me and honestly if I was them it would be a huge risk.

[GemmaUK]

As for drinking, two day old interaction.

 

 

Me: do you like dinner dates, coffee dates, activity dates

Her: I like drinking so definitely dinner dates

Me: That's great but I don't drink

Her: Why is that

Me: Because I am training for a cycle race and while I have drank before I didn't enjoy it.

 

 

Conversation died shortly afterwards.

 

I have read back a bit.

I just want to point something out here ZA.

In the above conversation you offered up a few options, she chose one and you then said 'That's great but I don't drink'.

First off - you already know a dinner date is a bad idea for a first meet - when will you apply it?

Don't suggest it in future.

But you did suggest it and then you said: 'That's great, but I don't drink'.

You had already chosen yourself to put the dinner option out there and then you killed it flat. I would have assumed there would never be any dinner dates with you - for all I know you are always in training.

 

Once you had thrown that option in you could have said 'That's great! I'm a foodie, I love trying out different foods, what's your favourite? I'm in training right now for a race so won't be drinking but it would be great to sit down, have a bit of time, some good food and get to know you better. '

 

Your friend is as IMJ said - he is most definitely someone to observe when you are with him - watch ALL of his interactions with women and with ANYONE.

Watch his eyebrows, eyes, head movements, his shoulders, arms, hands, legs and feet.

Plus, listen to what he says.

Also, listen to what the person he is interacting with says and notice what they do too with all of those body parts.

He is one to watch and to read.

Do the studying and you will understand it - all of it.

 

You're trying things out almost blind just now.

Step back, get reading some decent books, watch that show I suggested (also watch TV dramas - you can watch and learn to read body language in decent well directed TV shows)

Give yourself a break and some time to learn about this stuff.

[GemmaUK]

Add on to my last post:

 

Maybe also we could do with understanding what you deem 'incredibly beautiful' as you have said in this thread that those are women you would date if their intelligence held up to or beat yours.

 

Name some celebrity names you deem attractive and OK for you to date.

[ZA Dater]

I have read back a bit.

I just want to point something out here ZA.

In the above conversation you offered up a few options, she chose one and you then said 'That's great but I don't drink'.

First off - you already know a dinner date is a bad idea for a first meet - when will you apply it?

Don't suggest it in future.

But you did suggest it and then you said: 'That's great, but I don't drink'.

You had already chosen yourself to put the dinner option out there and then you killed it flat. I would have assumed there would never be any dinner dates with you - for all I know you are always in training.

 

Once you had thrown that option in you could have said 'That's great! I'm a foodie, I love trying out different foods, what's your favourite? I'm in training right now for a race so won't be drinking but it would be great to sit down, have a bit of time, some good food and get to know you better. '

 

Your friend is as IMJ said - he is most definitely someone to observe when you are with him - watch ALL of his interactions with women and with ANYONE.

Watch his eyebrows, eyes, head movements, his shoulders, arms, hands, legs and feet.

Plus, listen to what he says.

Also, listen to what the person he is interacting with says and notice what they do too with all of those body parts.

He is one to watch and to read.

Do the studying and you will understand it - all of it.

 

You're trying things out almost blind just now.

Step back, get reading some decent books, watch that show I suggested (also watch TV dramas - you can watch and learn to read body language in decent well directed TV shows)

Give yourself a break and some time to learn about this stuff.

 

 

 

I don't sugar coat things so yes while you have a point I guess I just became irritated that once again it was about drinking. I only went the dinner date route because she wanted that because when I offered up a coffee date it was a case of "no I prefer drinking dates".

 

 

Again this was me picking the best of a bad set of matches. Why say I wont be drinking now, that gives and expectation I might drink in the future?

 

 

I spend a lot of time with this friend by virtue of working with and spending time out of work with him. He is pretty much everything I am not. He jokes around with ladies, which I never can do, he finds something to connect with them and I can never do that, ok maybe very rarely. He is fitter better looking than me, despite being 10 and a few more years older than me.

 

 

The fundamentals between him and I at dating just aren't on the same page, he has tried to help me in the past but those ideas were like trying to climb a mountain with no rope, doomed to fail badly and they always did. He encouraged me to go after the co worker that flopped even though I knew the idea was a bad one from the outset, I stuck with it. He is fun and funny, I am quiet and serious. I do try to be more outgoing.

 

 

Most of all he has confidence to be cheeky and flirt and I don't have that, truthfully I never have had it, sure I find it some of time when K is around but that's pretty pointless because she isn't in the game at all. I can find it when I am working and doing difficult deals with clients but then its easy because there is some common goal and objective.

 

 

He

[ZA Dater]

Add on to my last post:

 

Maybe also we could do with understanding what you deem 'incredibly beautiful' as you have said in this thread that those are women you would date if their intelligence held up to or beat yours.

 

Name some celebrity names you deem attractive and OK for you to date.

 

 

 

This is quite difficult to answer.

 

 

Because its about balance and by that I mean someone with intelligence and amazing personality can become very attractive even if they aren't that in shape but that is relative.

 

 

There needs to be some physical attraction. But its hard for me to define what that is. I guess I like natural looking people.

 

 

I don't really follow celebrities per se but I suppose Blake Lively would rate up there on my "list".

 

 

As I say wants are very much tempered by what I think I can get. Crass example of this is as follows

 

 

Friend: Wouldn't you want to ....... her

Me: Not really because she wouldn't want me.

 

 

Why want the completely impossible unless you can actually shop there, its like going to a designer store with $20 and hoping to buy an outfit, it wont happen and unfortunately I think that's very true with dating to. If you look great and have the charm and swagger then maybe you can have those gorgeous people, add a thick wallet and you can definitely get dates with them but if you are like me, well I cant shop there so for the most part its pointless even looking with the expectation of getting anything.

 

 

Apart from one fairly drunk Tinder date nobody has ever found me physically attractive.

[GemmaUK]

I don't sugar coat things so yes while you have a point I guess I just became irritated that once again it was about drinking. I only went the dinner date route because she wanted that because when I offered up a coffee date it was a case of "no I prefer drinking dates".

 

 

Again this was me picking the best of a bad set of matches. Why say I wont be drinking now, that gives and expectation I might drink in the future?

You CHOSE to say you are in training for a race and you have said before you only do drink alcohol with those you are comfortable with.

So say you are training if your plan is to continue saying that you are training for this or that or whatever next.

You could, like MANY HAVE SAID TIME AND AGAIN not mention not drinking - at all.

You continue to stop conversations dead with 'I don't drink'

You are a grown man, you have intelligence (I am wondering on this score) and logic (I'm finding that really difficult to find in you) and are aware that saying you don't drink in a culture where drinking is very popular you will be asked. Surely????!!!

You need to come up with something filled out enough and still positive as a first response.

If you simply cannot abide drinkers then you get out of that conversation with that person telling them this will not go any further and you're not interested.

 

I spend a lot of time with this friend by virtue of working with and spending time out of work with him. He is pretty much everything I am not. He jokes around with ladies, which I never can do, he finds something to connect with them and I can never do that, ok maybe very rarely. He is fitter better looking than me, despite being 10 and a few more years older than me.

 

 

The fundamentals between him and I at dating just aren't on the same page, he has tried to help me in the past but those ideas were like trying to climb a mountain with no rope, doomed to fail badly and they always did. He encouraged me to go after the co worker that flopped even though I knew the idea was a bad one from the outset, I stuck with it. He is fun and funny, I am quiet and serious. I do try to be more outgoing.

 

 

Most of all he has confidence to be cheeky and flirt and I don't have that, truthfully I never have had it, sure I find it some of time when K is around but that's pretty pointless because she isn't in the game at all. I can find it when I am working and doing difficult deals with clients but then its easy because there is some common goal and objective.

 

 

He

 

You have completely missed the point yet again. Gaaaaahhh!

He is one to observe for body language learning.

Not to compare yourself to.

 

As for whom you find attractive (Blake) - if she worked a till in a shop would she looks wise be your level?

[Cookiesandough]

Are you sure you really even want to date/a relationship?

[ZA Dater]

You CHOSE to say you are in training for a race and you have said before you only do drink alcohol with those you are comfortable with.

So say you are training if your plan is to continue saying that you are training for this or that or whatever next.

You could, like MANY HAVE SAID TIME AND AGAIN not mention not drinking - at all.

You continue to stop conversations dead with 'I don't drink'

You are a grown man, you have intelligence (I am wondering on this score) and logic (I'm finding that really difficult to find in you) and are aware that saying you don't drink in a culture where drinking is very popular you will be asked. Surely????!!!

You need to come up with something filled out enough and still positive as a first response.

If you simply cannot abide drinkers then you get out of that conversation with that person telling them this will not go any further and you're not interested.

 

 

 

You have completely missed the point yet again. Gaaaaahhh!

He is one to observe for body language learning.

Not to compare yourself to.

 

As for whom you find attractive (Blake) - if she worked a till in a shop would she looks wise be your level?

 

 

 

Sure, I wont mention drinking then go on a date and get asked the same question, I might as state it up front and if she isn't interested I haven't wasted my time going on a date, I think that is quite logical and transparent.

 

 

They choose to stop the conversations dead not me, how about some of them actually accept I don't drink and perhaps, just perhaps I am a great guy despite that but NO its a throw away fact I don't drink. What you advocate is once again simply bowing down to the needs of someone else before my own which I will not do.

 

 

Of course I am aware of those things but I would like to think anyone with some sort of logic wouldn't judge me purely on that, clearly I am wrong about that. I don't need to get out of any conversation they generally walk away anyway so really the effect is the same.

 

 

Well when you observe something the idea is to measure what you are observing to what you do and know, its how people learn, imitation as they say is the greatest form of flattery so reading between the lines you suggest I observe but don't compare and don't copy, well if I don't compare I then cant measure what I do right and what I do wrong.

 

 

Observe and copy that's basically what it boils down to, long ago I learnt that perhaps dating and communism have something in common the more the same you are the better your odds and the more generic you are the better your odds.

 

 

If she worked at a till, probably not. If she worked in marketing/advertising/studying then possibly yes. I am sure there will be millions of reasons why that response is unsuitable.

 

 

Lastly I am sorry you find my replies unintelligent and illogical.

[GemmaUK]

Sure, I wont mention drinking then go on a date and get asked the same question, I might as state it up front and if she isn't interested I haven't wasted my time going on a date, I think that is quite logical and transparent

They choose to stop the conversations dead not me, how about some of them actually accept I don't drink and perhaps, just perhaps I am a great guy despite that but NO its a throw away fact I don't drink. What you advocate is once again simply bowing down to the needs of someone else before my own which I will not do.

You are not bowing down to the needs of others for chrissakes (!!), you are looking after your own if you fill your response out.

What I and others are suggesting is a good filled out response about why you don't drink so that you only get maybe one or two more questions if any about it.

The drinking issue ruffles your feathers SO MUCH that you would be better finding something that works for you.

What I DO NOT understand is that you continue to say 'I don't drink', No straight up explanation, no empathy there for yourself nor them for what they may think.

You could say:

I don't drink because I'm allergic and my hands swell up if I ingest alcohol.

I don't drink because I don't like the taste, never have.

I don't drink because I love driving and want to always be ready for driving.

Give a reason that can't be questioned too much.

It's easy.

There's black and white but you are really not applying logic nor thinking of the thoughts that might cross other people's minds on this subject. Be aware.

they will ask. The fuller response you give the less they will question you.

 

Of course I am aware of those things but I would like to think anyone with some sort of logic wouldn't judge me purely on that,

Oh c'mon! You are not a precious flower ZA!

You have a clue how you come accross - you write in depth about it all of the time.

 

Well when you observe something the idea is to measure what you are observing to what you do and know, its how people learn, imitation as they say is the greatest form of flattery so reading between the lines you suggest I observe but don't compare and don't copy, well if I don't compare I then cant measure what I do right and what I do wrong.

Observe and copy that's basically what it boils down to, long ago I learnt that perhaps dating and communism have something in common the more the same you are the better your odds and the more generic you are the better your odds.

What you posted about this guy was a diatribe of how you compare to him right now - nothing positive - did that aid you in any way at all??

 

What you should be doing is observing him, not mirroring him - mirroring is for when you are attracted to a woman.

Observe him and figure what you can add to your own personality - take it gently or you will feel seriously awkward.

 

But - get reading - what books have you got on order or what have you had delivered?

I can't help but suspect the answer is none - please surprise me!!

 

My questioning of your intelligence and logic stems from you only appear (from what you say) to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over.....

[Imajerk17]

Yes indeed on doing the same things over and over.

 

OP, You have had the same conversation w your Tinder dates--the one w the "I don't drink" punchline--like what, hundreds of times, and each time it goes over like a lead raft.

 

The only logical thing would be either to stop bringing that conversation up (you have gotten bunches of alternative suggestions from GammaUK and others over many many threads of yours) OR to realize that Tinder just isn't for you and search elsewhere. For some reason you won't do either though

 

ZA, you need to understand what is REALLY happening in the 'I don't drink' conversations you keep having. Whether your prospective dates can articulate it like this or not, you are actually coming across very rigid and stuck in your ways, just not open to a good time. And so of course she isn't interested. What the woman talking to you cares about, deep down, is if you'd be a cool normal guy who'd be a fun date. The answers GammaUK suggested where you fill out your response, go towards reassuring your date that indeed, you could be a cool normal guy. You'd be revealing something about yourself which would make you appear more human/likeable.

 

As for your friend, don't try to be exactly as him, instead observe his relaxed confident open posture, how he doesn't talk too fast, the way he teases the women, how he generally seems to not take interactions too seriously. You can pick up some things. As he is older when you and he are out ask him to coach you. He may be able to observe specific things w body language you could be doing better. (That I think would be better than trying to read a book on body language, which may be too much theory.)

Edited February 17, 2018 by Imajerk17

[GemmaUK]

This guy could become a coach, it's a possibility but sometimes those who just have a gift for body language aren't even really aware of what they are doing.

If this guy says 'I don't know' I just do 'xyz' he isn't going to be a great coach but is definitely worth observing.

 

A perfect opportunity landed today in terms of level of theory I am talking about in terms of books. There's a vast quantity of books on body language out there - some for students studying psychology and some for laymen, some are right in the middle. This is why I advocate reading reviews to see what others think of different types of books.

The level I am talking about may be too much theory for some though which I can appreciate - an example of the level I am talking about is here - post 32.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/652989-do-women-just-not-like-me-am-i-intimidating

[FilterCoffee]

Hey Gemma,

 

I’ve loved reading your posts on body language. I just searched for Paul Ekman on Amazon and he’s written a LOT of books. If you don’t mind, could you suggest one for the average joe? I would like to start with a book that has a lot of pictures/photos if you’re aware of any.