Standards of physical attraction vs 'out of your league'

[nospam99]

A recent discussion of intimidation of men by successful women got off on a bit of a 'tangent'. I'm at least partially to blame. Here's my recent post:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/651077-most-men-intimidated-successful-women-true-myth-6.html#post7528047

 

I'm starting a new thread because I'm going off topic of the other thread AND it struck me that this sheds some light on other threads. Specifically a couple of the other guys were stating opinions that celebrity inventor Lori Greiner is somehow 'not pretty'. My initial reaction to that was that she is as pretty as the women I date. After thinking it over, no, she is a bit PRETTIER than any woman (or girl in my youth) I EVER dated.

 

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I also have read threads here at LS where men complain they can't get dates with women who are attractive 'enough' for them. And sometimes they get a response along the lines of 'you can't get dates because you're trying to date out of your league' i.e. date women who are so attractive that they would not be attracted to the complainers. I wonder if believing that a woman who looks like Ms Greiner is not pretty sheds like on the 'reasonableness' of some of the standards men have for a woman's physical appeal.

 

FWIW while I don't feel Ms Greiner is out of MY league, I wouldn't ask her out purely because of her relative youth. But I also couldn't fault her if SHE thought she was out of my league.

[Cookiesandough]

I guess a lot of just boils down to taste but I do believe in a phenomenon referred to as 'e-standards'. Being anonymous on the internet where there are countless pics of 'shopped, airbrushed ladies at your fingertips makes it really easy to be hypercritical. When in reality if that woman actually approached them IRL they'd oops their pants.

 

And it really doesn't matter who they are, someone will have something to criticize them for. Especially if they are on the more conventionally attractive end of the spectrum. I've seen keyboard warriors tear down Margot Robbie, say they would not bang even if drunk, for her elbows are far too pointy...

[jay1983]

Yeah, the same way a lot women here will tell you george Clooney is not attractive.

Edited February 2, 2018 by jay1983

[Chilli]

Same thing with women though.

Look at all the so called standards they have around here or on date sites . but when you actually see most of the women keyboard worries , exactly the same thing.

 

Me personally, my tastes are in my eyes so to speak , to me my women would be stunning but not what other guys would call stunners.

l don't actually really like true stunning women , l dunno why.

They usually just don't seem real enough to me or something.

Or for example l do know they just won't have the personality traits l adore in my women, they just won't, if anything they'll have tickets on themselves.

 

l like real.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Chilli

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Same thing with women though.

Look at all the so called standards they have around here or on date sites . but when you actually see most of the women keyboard worries , exactly the same thing.

 

Me personally, my tastes are in my eyes so to speak , to me my women would be stunning but not what other guys would call stunners.

l don't actually really like true stunning women , l dunno why.

They usually just don't seem real enough to me or something.

Or for example l do know they just won't have the personality traits l adore in my women, they just won't, if anything they'll have tickets on themselves.

 

l like real.

 

What does this mean? I've never heard that phrase.

 

To the original question, I think beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder.

[Chilli]

Yeah yeah , that's the term l was looking for .

Eyes of the beholder , most guys wouldn't see what l see and love in her.

 

Tickets , she'll think she's Gods gift to men.

[thefooloftheyear]

I'm starting a new thread because I'm going off topic of the other thread AND it struck me that this sheds some light on other threads. Specifically a couple of the other guys were stating opinions that celebrity inventor Lori Greiner is somehow 'not pretty'. My initial reaction to that was that she is as pretty as the women I date. After thinking it over, no, she is a bit PRETTIER than any woman (or girl in my youth) I EVER dated.

 

.

 

You ever seen that meme where a fat slob of a guy is online in front of his computer with a bag of Doritos, criticizing some guys jacked/ripped physique and offering his own advice to the guy?

 

yeah....its kinda like that....

 

TFY

[basil67]

Yeah, the same way a lot women here will tell you george Clooney is not attractive.

 

Depends which George Clooney we are talking about. He was pretty good looking for a decade or two in his middle ages, but these days he's looking more like a polished corpse.

[basil67]

Speaking of Which George Clooney, I also have to ask Which Lori Griener?

 

I didn't know who she was, so I did an image search. There is a beautiful, natural Lori and another one who's had a mountain of plastic surgery and looks terrible. Depending on which images you're lookin at, both 'attractive' and 'unattractive' could be true.

[Jj66]

My fiancée is objectively out of my league but she still said yes. Is she the most physically attractive woman available to me. Nope. But she is still a 10 in my book. She has the complete package.

[5x5]

A recent discussion of intimidation of men by successful women got off on a bit of a 'tangent'. I'm at least partially to blame. Here's my recent post:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/651077-most-men-intimidated-successful-women-true-myth-6.html#post7528047

 

I'm starting a new thread because I'm going off topic of the other thread AND it struck me that this sheds some light on other threads. Specifically a couple of the other guys were stating opinions that celebrity inventor Lori Greiner is somehow 'not pretty'. My initial reaction to that was that she is as pretty as the women I date. After thinking it over, no, she is a bit PRETTIER than any woman (or girl in my youth) I EVER dated.

 

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I also have read threads here at LS where men complain they can't get dates with women who are attractive 'enough' for them. And sometimes they get a response along the lines of 'you can't get dates because you're trying to date out of your league' i.e. date women who are so attractive that they would not be attracted to the complainers. I wonder if believing that a woman who looks like Ms Greiner is not pretty sheds like on the 'reasonableness' of some of the standards men have for a woman's physical appeal.

 

FWIW while I don't feel Ms Greiner is out of MY league, I wouldn't ask her out purely because of her relative youth. But I also couldn't fault her if SHE thought she was out of my league.

 

Well I still think Lori Greiner and women who look similar to her aren't particularly attractive, as a consequence of having a face that appears too masculine for my liking. So I wouldn't and didn't go there with women who look like that. I don't think reasonableness has anything to do with it I can't help what I like and don't like.

 

The thing is tastes vary, what I like you may not like and vice versa. Likewise I am not every woman's cup of tea, yet that's fine since I have never wanted to be all things to all people.

 

That said I never lacked for sex and or dates or even sometimes marriage proposals from some attractive women, so I've never been one to complain about not getting dates.

 

Just walking into a room can sometimes be enough for some (obviously not all). When my ex-wife saw me at a party, she asked a friend to ask me to talk to her. Then she carried on about how beautiful I was, my smile, my eyes etc on and on (all while she looked splendid herself). Before she asked me to kiss her, then sex followed a while after, then dating, then a relationship etc.

 

My current wife has told me she only asked me out on a date (we worked together) because I had a handsome face and had a confidence and charm which she liked. She also sometimes tells me, that she's only with me because I still have a handsome face (for my age).

 

Oh and just for the record although I do think I look okay, I don't think I have ever been beautiful.

 

My ex-wife when we were together looked like Madonna did circa Material Girl, my current (2nd) wife has always looked similar to Silvana Mangano (although I think my wife is ageing better than she did).

 

My third longest relationship was with a woman who looked like Renee Zellweger did circa Empire Records.

 

While I have also been with women who looked like Alexandra Breckenridge, Audrey Tautou, Elisha Cuthbert, Mary Elizabeth Winstead, Sophie Marceau, Jennifer Lawrence, Hermione Corfield and the like etc.

 

Looks matter more or less to some than it does to others, as with all such things what one finds attractive varies over what another finds attractive.

 

Some like the aesthetics of the women I like, while some others don't. Just as some women and some men have found me attractive, while some others haven't. We can't help but like and dislike whatever we like and dislike.

 

One thing though, I've never bought into this idea of leagues, if I was interested in a woman I smiled at them first, if they were interested in me I smiled back and so it went on. In my experience it's easy to find women (or men if I was so inclined) to have sex with, date and have relationships with and it all usually starts with "hello".

 

I've turned some women down as some have turned me down. It's never been a big deal, since I can't imagine anyone wanting to be with someone who doesn't find them appealing.

 

At the end of the day, the majority of people look average, while those at either end are ugly though hideous or attractive through gorgeous. At the end of the day most people aren't the beautiful people, and that is okay.

 

I don't see why people choose to shoot themselves in the foot, by pigeonholing themselves and others with scores, leagues and the like. Oh and in the same vein don't put people on pedestals.

 

If you like somebody because you are attracted to them, then say so. If they feel the same way then have at it. If they don't feel the same way, appreciate their candour and move on.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I think most men tend to way overestimate their own looks where women are much harder on themselves.

[PegNosePete]

women are much harder on themselves.

Ha! Have you never been on OLD? As a man that is

 

The number of women with totally unrealistic standards is immense. Maybe they are hard on themselves internally but the image they present to the world is that they are the best thing since sliced bread and only Prince Harry need apply. And then they cry that they can't find a nice guy.

 

When I was on holiday once I saw 2 couples at dinner. One of them, a very attractive guy with an overweight, unkempt woman. The other a stunning woman with a short ugly guy. I really thought physically they should swap with each other, both couples would have looked much more suited. But they were all happy and having a great time so all good!

Edited February 2, 2018 by PegNosePete

[nospam99]

Tickets , she'll think she's Gods gift to men.

 

When are you Aussies going to learn English so you can stop speaking Strine in mixed company?

Depends which George Clooney we are talking about. He was pretty good looking for a decade or two in his middle ages, but these days he's looking more like a polished corpse.

 

Can say that about female celebs, too.

Speaking of Which George Clooney, I also have to ask Which Lori Griener?

 

I didn't know who she was, so I did an image search. There is a beautiful, natural Lori and another one who's had a mountain of plastic surgery and looks terrible. Depending on which images you're lookin at, both 'attractive' and 'unattractive' could be true.

 

I didn't know who she was until her name came up in the thread about men being intimidated by successful women. I agree some of her photos look much better than others. And as others here have observed, she is rich, smart, and successful enough to know how to make herself and the way she is photographed look as good as possible. I was and am impressed by the 'attractive' photos.

The number of women with totally unrealistic standards is immense. Maybe they are hard on themselves internally but the image they present to the world is that they are the best thing since sliced bread and only Prince Harry need apply.

 

Prince Harry as well as George Clooney are examples of men I thought were regarded as physically attractive to women that I used in a post weeks ago. IIRC, several LS ladies chimed in with not agreeing that Harry and George were handsome.

 

I'm OP here. What really got me curious was a lack of consensus about whether Ms Greiner is 'pretty'. There is a difference between pretty and whether I, or another man, thinks the woman is attractive enough that they'd want to date, have sex with, or marry. I can understand another man's opinion that she is not 'attractive enough' to date. I have more trouble with she is not 'pretty'. Aside from that, the more important question is whether and how much such standards of physical appeal limit anyone's success finding a partner.

Edited February 2, 2018 by nospam99

[Interstellar]

Let’s look at Tina Fey she has the looks, intelligence, personality, and humor but if you look at her husband at first glance you would never think that she could be with him. Explore deeper and you’ll find that he’s probably a 10 to her because there’s something quirky about him that she really, really finds attractive and he’s (most likely also) talented, has a great sense of humor, a great father, husband, and many more. Additionally, when I look at that guy; he’s shorter than her it also made wonder why some guys here on LS get overtly depressed about women.

 

Look at him as an example, develop your personality, dress well, learn how to be funny and charming and you’ll marry your own Tina Fey who thinks you’re more beautiful than Brad Pitt.

[d0nnivain]

Maybe in some country with a caste system, there are leagues but in America not so much. If you like somebody talk to them. People are fundamentally people.

 

This league business is silly. It creates a defeatist mindset.

 

I had some guy tell me he thought I was out of his league. I didn't get it. We were at the same event; we had the same degree from the same school; we operated our businesses on the same model. Where he saw the disconnect, I will never understand

[CptInsano]

I see leagues in the sense of socioeconomic or educational background, but it would be much harder to define in terms of looks, especially for the masses of people who look some form of average.

 

Personally the concept would not help me much, as there seems to be little correlation between the looks of a woman and whether she would be interested in me.

[MaleIntuition]

I’ve seen reference to a study (don’t remeber where) which claims that, with time, we start to appreciate the uniqueness of our partners more so than their objective looks. That’s something to keep in mind when dating.

 

I don’t think we should mix physical attraction with the idea of leagues. I think the latter is more tied to psychological effects; i.e “how will people judge me if I date this person. Will I be perceived as less, because my standards are to low?”. Even if this is a completely subconscious process, it might create a block for feelings to arise if/when it’s hard to see a future with them. Looks is one aspect here, but so is social skills, intelligence, humour and general personality.

 

Physical attraction, on the other hand, is much more individualistic.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

 

When I was on holiday once I saw 2 couples at dinner. One of them, a very attractive guy with an overweight, unkempt woman. The other a stunning woman with a short ugly guy. I really thought physically they should swap with each other, both couples would have looked much more suited. But they were all happy and having a great time so all good!

 

Two nights ago I went out to dinner with a friend. We were sitting at a table in the bar area, and seated at the bar was a man and a woman who really appeared to be on a first date, due to the amount of enamored talking they were doing with each other. It's possible they were long lost friends/cousins and hadn't seen each other in a while, also, the way they were totally immersed in each other. They looked like they were having such a great time together.

 

The man was pretty handsome, looked fit and maybe weighed about 170. The woman was also very pretty, but easily at least twice his weight. Maybe even approaching 400 pounds. I really wish that the first thought in my head had NOT been, "what the....." But it was, sadly.

[thefooloftheyear]

I'm OP here. What really got me curious was a lack of consensus about whether Ms Greiner is 'pretty'. There is a difference between pretty and whether I, or another man, thinks the woman is attractive enough that they'd want to date, have sex with, or marry. I can understand another man's opinion that she is not 'attractive enough' to date. I have more trouble with she is not 'pretty'. Aside from that, the more important question is whether and how much such standards of physical appeal limit anyone's success finding a partner.

 

Most of those same guys would drag their nuts over 100 yds of broken glass for that type of woman.....Let's see who they can attract...

 

She's 50 years old...She looks great and far better than the vast majority her age and even younger.....End of story...

 

TFY

[Chilli]

Well it's weird but a temporary business partner of mine is an absolutely gorgeous women and really well dressed, she seems like a very special person to to boot.

Quite tall 5. 9 or so.

But l'd never met her husband.

 

They came out a few mths back , quite a funny match, he's tiny , jockey size, really scruffy, long hair , wares anything, total opposites but there ya go. Been married for years apparently .

[Cookiesandough]

Ehhhhh nevermind. Just my messed up observations

Edited February 2, 2018 by Cookiesandough

[preraph]

Here's an example of out of your league in the U.S. This happened. A guy who was obsessive and fearful and basically surveilled women instead of just being friendly and asking them out went, on my suggestion, to volunteer for a charity. Charities are often run by socialites, at least in my area. Of course, they're grateful for any volunteer help. So this guy calls me one day all excited because he got a "thank you" note from the socialite. He had already told his mom, who lives back east, and his mother heartily approved of her (I'll bet). I mean, in his mind, this thank you note was a come-on. Apparently, his mother never taught him the social niceties like how you write a quick thank you when someone gifts you (one-way) or this sort of thing.

 

I warned him it was just a standard thank you that people in polite society would do. But he humiliated himself with her anyway and got thoroughly shot down. So there's an example of when someone is truly "out of your league."

 

But I think what most people mean and usually what I mean when I say it is men and women who go after a person of the opposite sex who is way better looking than them. And these people always get offended because they're like, Well, I hate to think that looks is all he/she cares about," but at the same time they're hypocritical because that's all THEY seem to care about. The better looking person may be just as nice and have a great personality, and why wouldn't they look for someone who is their match on all accounts?

[carhill]

My introduction to leagues came prior to puberty and had nothing to do with looks, rather socio economics and attending private school with the children of the wealthy and community business leaders. Always polite, friendly on Sunday in church but they generally didn't associate with lessers otherwise. About the only exceptions I recall were the farmers and their kids. More down to earth.

 

This continued on into adulthood. Again, never rude or uncouth but rather a gentle reminder of where the wall was. Did some of the rich kids, young and adult, cross the tracks for a physically attractive lesser? Sure! Marry them? IDK, from living in the same area for five decades and having a relatively small group to follow, nah. They married in their class, irrespective of looks, meaning some were beautiful and others were not and others were average. It was easy to track from the big wedding ads in the local newspaper. Pretty much all, though, same social class. That's how life works, my experience of it anyway.

 

For myself it was never an issue of standards of attractiveness, rather marital status. Stick me in a demographic where there were single women around, no dating problems at all, tons of attractive women and plenty of dating success. Also, getting away from the class disparity helped too. Beat that dead horse for awhile until the private school stink wore off sufficiently for peers to accept that I wasn't one of 'those'. By the time I hit 25 or so, most of the leagues stuff was gone and it was simply dating rejections or acceptances. However, those early tapes haunted me for many years. Getting old in some ways has been a blessing.

[Casper.]

Lori Greiner - I'd never heard of her so i did a google image search...... I don't think she's anything special. Not bad looking, but I'd just say she's average but well dolled up. But thats simply my objective opinion which is, of course, based on my personal idea of 'beauty'.

 

I have never failed to approach a girl because I deemed her physically 'out of my league'. But I think thats just a confidence thing.. not in the sense that i believe i'm Brad Pitt, but just in the sense that being with an attractive girl doesnt make me feel insecure, It doesnt bother me if other people might think im 'punching'!

 

My girlfriend is definitely the best looking girl I've dated ...and to me, one of the best looking girls I've ever met! I noticed her the second she walked into the and the night we met and i didnt take my eyes off her all night, i thought she was a knockout! But being madly attracted to her physically has never made me feel like im not good enough for her in that regard...... I guess i feel like im physically attractive enough that that wouldnt put off any girl that liked my personality! Haha!

 

My girlfriend is for sure out of my league in most other ways thought! There was a big mismatch in our upbringings/finances/educations/careers - i'm punching above my weight for sure!! :lmao:

 

The other thing wit physical attraction is I dated a girl for a little bit when I was 19ish. It was never a particularly serious relationship but man, did I fancy her!! Like i actively pursued the girl and was very sexually attracted to her and yet, if im going to strictly objective, then she wasn't conventionally attractive, but there was just something about her.. for the time we were together i was into her!