Encouragement

[Poppy47]

That' a bizarre thing for him to say. Even more bizarre is that he would think you could possibly find that flattering and endearing. He sounds like he has a very strange way of viewing the world.

 

Macbride,

 

He was very odd indeed. Reflecting on the past often brings clarity. In hindsight, I do believe that secretly emotionally abusing his wife gave him some kind of pleasure.

 

It is all too hard to comprehend and I have given up trying in favour of peace of mind.

 

Poppy

[HadMeOverABarrel]

it is all too hard to comprehend and i have given up trying in favour of peace of mind.

 

Poppy

 

amen!!!!!!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

You think I'm trying to hold you back? What would my motivation for that be?

 

I do believe I answered this already in my last reply to you.

 

Not even close, I pull for every ow/MW on the site. My style is the same in every part of my Life. Point out what I see as positive as well as what is negative with no apologies. I don't know you, so I base it solely on what you wrote. In combination with my educational background in human behavior.

 

1. You didn't base it on what I wrote as I repeatedly told you how you skewed and misinterpreted what I wrote, and in some cases regurgitated the opposite. 2. Just because you have an educational background in human behavior does not make you infallible. If anything, you should be even more questioning of yourself for suggesting your background gives you a leg up--from my observations in life any time a person believes they have mastered something, that person creates a blind spot in that area from lack of vigilance. Also, I have had a couple therapists who have brought their personal "stuff" into the counseling session, which was counterproductive. Heck, some people get into the mental health field because they are trying to sort out their own "stuff."

 

His wife my be a nasty piece of work, but what exactly has she done to you? Objected to you being with her husband? Has she done anything to you that wasn't spurred on by that?

 

See, here is one of those places where you are pushing your own agenda, which is you think I'm angry at and blaming the BS. Nope, can't really be bothered wasting my energy on that. And if I were, her living with him is all the punishment I could ever hope for, and I could say the same for him. Him living with her is his punishment and loss. As one of my closet friends said, they deserve each other.

 

As I said several times, you are doing some good things, I think if you just shift that last little bit and let it go, in my opinion, you will be there.

 

I recall another posters here that I had this very conversation with. She was saying what you are saying but she had this quiet rage bubbling under the surface towards his BW. She refused to let it go. After a year and a half she found herself right back in the affair. Why? Because she wouldn't be honest with herself about why she was saying bad things about this woman, who had really done nothing to her. Her anger was based on MM choosing to stay married and that she saw his wife as a rival. If she had let go of the idea of him she would have no reason to hold hatered towards her.

 

We are not all the same. For me, I see all the awesome stuff that is unfolding in my life now, like blessings falling from heaven, and how the A was a barrier to receiving it all before. So basically it's a choice: xMM in A or all this awesomeness that is even better than before I knew xMM. I really liked my life before him, and now things are even better, so now I'm on fire with excitement, marvel, happiness, more! Give all that up to feel miserable for a crumb of a crumb with xMM? Nah, I think the choice is pretty easy!

 

See my attempt as you will, but ask your therapist about this(if you have one) and go from there.

 

With that I will excuse myself from your thread and future threads, I wish you the best.

 

It's too bad you didn't take me up on doing your own introspection. Oh well.

 

 

All the best!

Edited February 14, 2018 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Bittersweetie]

I will say, as a former MW, that DKT3 has some valid points. Maybe it's because I am over seven years out from my A that I can see the points he's trying to make...it's all about perspective.

 

Barrel, when I started on this site, there was zero moderation and posters used to say horrible things to WW like me. I found, though, that the posts that pissed me off the most hit a nerve, a nerve that was an issue I hadn't addressed yet. I'm not saying you have to listen to everyone but maybe sometimes try to take a step back. Or just move on. Even today occasionally a post will really get to me...but now instead of thinking "what a jerk" I think "why is this upsetting me so much?"

 

You've made great progress, and the more progress you make, the easier it becomes. It is a hard road to heal from being a OW/MW but as long as you keep moving forward you'll make it. GL.

[wmacbride]

op,

Have you thought about what you response will be should this mm try to contact you and get the affair up and running again?

 

I'm asking because if you have an answer down pat in your mind and are ready, it may be much easier to avoid getting sucked back in. You'll be well prepared and much less likely to be thrown for a loop.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

op,

Have you thought about what you response will be should this mm try to contact you and get the affair up and running again?

 

I'm asking because if you have an answer down pat in your mind and are ready, it may be much easier to avoid getting sucked back in. You'll be well prepared and much less likely to be thrown for a loop.

 

Yes, ma'am, I have. Too bad I can't make a flow chart here (nerdy joke).

 

If the coward (he even called himself a coward) gets the courage to ever reach out:

 

1. If he texts or emails, I will reply with text or email inappropriate and nothing less than phone call acceptable. Then I will ignore any subsequent written communication. In a phone call, I must hear an apology immediately after greeting. If no apology, I will tell him he should have started with an apology and hang up. If he surprises me with an apology straight off without prompt, move on to 2.

 

2. I must hear from him, without my guiding him, how he believes he errored in handling the whole situation...everything from lying to me about being emotionally available after I discovered he was married, to leading me on while married, to being duplicitous to both me and BS, to withholding information to my detriment, etc. Then, I have to hear what his plan is for being a better person, what he's learned and how he's grown. If this step is not satisfied, I will tell him he obviously hasn't reflected enough or grown enough to be someone who has access to me, and not to contact me until he does. I will begin any future attempts at contact with questioning him on these things and, if he fails, each time I will tell him there will be no further contact until he does. If he does demonstrate he has learned and grown as a person, and he has laid out a plan with measurable milestones and timeline, then move on to 3.

 

3. I must know his plans for his marriage. If he's staying married, I'm out. I will have no contact with him whatsoever as long as he plans to stay married. Should he demonstrate a divorce is in progress, I will have limited contact without being his emotional tampon (thanks Carhill!) or rebound girl (thanks CH). Sidebar: I have seen the dirty business of a male friend of mine, call him "D," use a younger woman to help stabilize him just after leaving his wife (wife was cheating)--I don't want to be that girl. She got D an apartment in her name, a car when his was repo'ed, became a non-paid admin in his business, did a lot for him in those first few months. Then D decided he didn't want to put up with her temper, so he moved to a new place and drastically limited contact with her (except when convenient). He justifies his behavior saying he bought her stuff and showed her new business ideas. He was not very loyal to her when she was nursing his newly separated a$$. This is my same friend who told me xMM was making a fool of me...guess he would know! Back to xMM...If xMM completes step 3 adequately and actually divorces, move on to 4.

 

4. He has to deal with and process his divorce, life changes, and truly have a solid grasp on why he was conflict avoidant in his marriage plus gain skills that will make him not repeat same patterns. If accomplished, move to step 5.

 

5. He has to date me like a lady, old fashioned style, the way this whole thing should have begun in the first place. Then, I will slowly begin to forgive and trust him.

 

 

Now to be clear, I really don't believe xMM would accomplish half of this because I just don't believe he has it in him...and ain't nothing going to happen between him and me until every last bit here is done. In being very realistic, even if he does miraculously do the above, I'm pretty sure I will be happily committed to someone else by the time he would...and I wouldn't let anything disturb my happiness with another man who did everything right from Day 1.

 

So yeah, I've got a plan!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I will say, as a former MW, that DKT3 has some valid points. Maybe it's because I am over seven years out from my A that I can see the points he's trying to make...it's all about perspective.

 

Barrel, when I started on this site, there was zero moderation and posters used to say horrible things to WW like me. I found, though, that the posts that pissed me off the most hit a nerve, a nerve that was an issue I hadn't addressed yet. I'm not saying you have to listen to everyone but maybe sometimes try to take a step back. Or just move on. Even today occasionally a post will really get to me...but now instead of thinking "what a jerk" I think "why is this upsetting me so much?"

 

You've made great progress, and the more progress you make, the easier it becomes. It is a hard road to heal from being a OW/MW but as long as you keep moving forward you'll make it. GL.

 

Hi Bittersweetie. What is hitting a nerve is someone trying to convince me they know me better than I know myself, twisting my words around, picking out certain sentences in my posts while glossing over other sentences to make their own case/agenda (the way dishonest lawyers do in a courtroom), and overall gaslighting me, trying to invalidate what I am saying and feeling, trying to convince me that my recovery isn't real (calling my thread a fake, etc.), etc.

 

Well here is a BIG FAT NO to all of that! No-one, regardless of what life situation or circumstances, should be ok with that. I don't have a problem with people asking questions or pointing out gaps in things I actually have said however...cases in point on this very thread.

 

Thanks for your post and thanks for stopping by.

[Bittersweetie]

I hope you don't think that I think your recovery is not real, or I'm gaslighting. I'm just speaking as someone whose farther down the road.

 

Your plan, above? In my opinion, it's a lot, it's too much. I went through a phase when all I wanted was an apology. I went through a phase when I thought, if he was single, and I was single, and he "proved" to me he was a better, healthier, etc etc etc kind of person, then maybe we would have another chance, someday. But as time went on, those phases faded away. And my plan was this:

 

Walk away. Say nothing.

 

Because, when it comes down to it, what is the point of engaging?

 

Maybe things are different for me as a MW, but I still can't see the point of all the expectations you have above. You, on your own, are moving forward, growing, becoming a healthier person! And there's plenty of men in the world for the future. There's really no reason for you to even give this guy the time of day!

 

Again, this is only my opinion as a fWW who is years down the road. GL.

 

P.S. I think, too, overall this is a good discussion not just for you but for all of us here.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Bittersweetie

[Poppy47]

Over a Barrel,

 

I also went through a stage where I planned what I would say and do if I ever heard from xMM again.

 

In my plan, I had many conditions he had to meet and THEN I might look at him again.

 

However, as time passed, I had to be honest with myself and ask why I was still thinking about a mongrel who treated his wife disgracefully for 9 years, and kept me dangling on a string. It was a stage in recovery... a bit like an addict bargaining with themselves I guess. It passed .

 

I eventually made a list of descriptive words such as liar, cheat, manipulator, emotional abuser, to name a few. Non of these qualities is desirable in anybody.

 

Try to focus on something else. WAsting time about what might happen in the future is futile.

Poppy.

[Poppy47]

P.S If I heard from him now, I would simply not reply... unless he turned up at my place of residence. Then I would have security remove him. Have to admit that would feel good !

Poppy

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I was just doing a No No, which was reviewing some of the correspondence between me and xMM for a brief moment. Here are my thoughts as I did, in order of strongest thoughts...

 

1. What a waste of so much of my time and energy!

 

2. I put in so much to nurture the connection while he did not. He just showed up without actually putting too much energy into it. I used to think he hard a hard time opening up, but now I think I made it too easy for him, and he was very lazy with me. He enjoyed gobbling up all my goodies without having to expend much energy.

 

3. I'm sad that I gave so much to someone who valued it too little, and did not respect me enough to be more honest about how little it all meant to him...but alas, I played into it like a silly fool always thinking the avalanche of good stuff would be right around the corner...just needed to turn the corner...the corner that never came...UNTIL NOW--because I turned my own corner without xMM. Crap, how much of myself I squandered!!! **sigh**

 

Oh well, can't do anything but look forward. Looking backward will just keep me in the past, and the present is here and now...plus staying in the past just wastes more of myself, and I just won't give anymore to such a crap situation!!!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

I hope you don't think that I think your recovery is not real, or I'm gaslighting. I'm just speaking as someone whose farther down the road.

 

Hi Bittersweetie, No I do not think you were making those statements.

I was stating DKT3 did that, and the action of such is what touched (or grated really) my nerves.

 

Your plan, above? In my opinion, it's a lot, it's too much. I went through a phase when all I wanted was an apology. I went through a phase when I thought, if he was single, and I was single, and he "proved" to me he was a better, healthier, etc etc etc kind of person, then maybe we would have another chance, someday. But as time went on, those phases faded away.

 

Yeah, I hear you. I think it's all part of the process. In a way, I think these plans we make with all their conditions are a way of us reasserting ourselves during the healing process. As I've said a few times here, I truly don't expect him to follow through on even a fraction of what I've put down as my requirements. They are really more of a guidepost of what the A was not, and a self-reminder of how things should be in a relationship with integrity. It's a way of saying, "Here is what I should have done from day one, but didn't. As a result, A got totally out of hand and jacked me up. Going forward, I will accept no less from anyone I will be involved with."

 

And my plan was this:

 

Walk away. Say nothing.

 

Because, when it comes down to it, what is the point of engaging?

 

Maybe things are different for me as a MW, but I still can't see the point of all the expectations you have above. You, on your own, are moving forward, growing, becoming a healthier person! And there's plenty of men in the world for the future. There's really no reason for you to even give this guy the time of day!

 

MW or not, there are parallels. Understanding and believing in my heart,

which I do now, that plenty of men who will think more of what makes me happy, strive for that, be a team, etc. makes me sad in a way because it is again a reminder that I invested in someone who was not any of that...but good things lay before me...yes!!!

 

Again, this is only my opinion as a fWW who is years down the road. GL.

 

P.S. I think, too, overall this is a good discussion not just for you but for all of us here.

Glad you agree!

 

Thanks for keeping the conversation going!

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Over a Barrel,

 

I also went through a stage where I planned what I would say and do if I ever heard from xMM again.

 

In my plan, I had many conditions he had to meet and THEN I might look at him again.

 

However, as time passed, I had to be honest with myself and ask why I was still thinking about a mongrel who treated his wife disgracefully for 9 years, and kept me dangling on a string. It was a stage in recovery... a bit like an addict bargaining with themselves I guess. It passed .

 

I eventually made a list of descriptive words such as liar, cheat, manipulator, emotional abuser, to name a few. Non of these qualities is desirable in anybody.

 

Try to focus on something else. WAsting time about what might happen in the future is futile.

Poppy.

 

"Over a Barrel"--don't forget the "Had" part, Poppy. Past tense--teasing! :-)

 

Same response as my reply to Bittersweetie above, but adding here that I really am not focused on what might happen in the future with xMM, but I am very focused on what I am doing right now that will impact my future. I am feeling very optimistic about all of that!

 

The thing I should work on most, which is something I identified in myself before A, is my tendency to avoid things that stress me by focusing on another situation, which may also be emotionally charged, but not as important. Case in point, I have a couple significant dilemmas to solve (not romantic or xMM related), I know I can solve them, and I have an idea of how to start even though I don't know all the steps, but it is easier to focus on getting over xMM...because thinking of those dilemmas is pretty stressful.

 

P.S If I heard from him now, I would simply not reply... unless he turned up at my place of residence. Then I would have security remove him. Have to admit that would feel good !

Poppy

 

I'm sure I will be there very soon, dear Poppy!

Edited February 16, 2018 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Vivir]

HadMeOverABarrel,

It's good to read your thoughts, my friend. Long time! I appreciate your encouraging words, and I'm very glad to learn of your progress

 

Really loved these nuggets from your original post in this thread:

 

"OW/OM: hear me now! NO, JUST NO! NO MORE, NOT ANOTHER DAY! LOVE YOURSELF MORE THAN YOU LOVE YOUR BELOVED! Take care of yourself, do all kind things you wanted to do for your beloved for YOURSELF. Be especially kind to yourself while you are picking up the pieces of your broken heart and mind."

 

and

 

"Live your lives, my friends. Enjoy every second, and never allow someone to rob you of your joy, especially someone who shows up to extract more than they are willing to give."

 

These are my overarching thoughts on the matter, though I continue to struggle. Anyway, I just wanted to stop in and say "Hi!"

[Poppy47]

Why on earth are you keeping correspondence, let alone looking at it???

 

Poppy

[Popsicle]

The OP is doing a whole lot better than other OW's I see.

 

Kudos!

[grass-hopper]

 

"OW/OM: hear me now! NO, JUST NO! NO MORE, NOT ANOTHER DAY! LOVE YOURSELF MORE THAN YOU LOVE YOUR BELOVED! Take care of yourself, do all kind things you wanted to do for your beloved for YOURSELF. Be especially kind to yourself while you are picking up the pieces of your broken heart and mind."

 

and

 

"Live your lives, my friends. Enjoy every second, and never allow someone to rob you of your joy, especially someone who shows up to extract more than they are willing to give."

 

Words to live by today

[HadMeOverABarrel]

HadMeOverABarrel,

It's good to read your thoughts, my friend. Long time! I appreciate your encouraging words, and I'm very glad to learn of your progress

 

Really loved these nuggets from your original post in this thread:

 

"OW/OM: hear me now! NO, JUST NO! NO MORE, NOT ANOTHER DAY! LOVE YOURSELF MORE THAN YOU LOVE YOUR BELOVED! Take care of yourself, do all kind things you wanted to do for your beloved for YOURSELF. Be especially kind to yourself while you are picking up the pieces of your broken heart and mind."

 

and

 

"Live your lives, my friends. Enjoy every second, and never allow someone to rob you of your joy, especially someone who shows up to extract more than they are willing to give."

 

These are my overarching thoughts on the matter, though I continue to struggle. Anyway, I just wanted to stop in and say "Hi!"

 

Very sweet, thank you! and thanks for the shout out! Wishing you success! We all stumble. I still have an emotional day here and there...been thinking of starting a new thread called "Affair Hangover" to explore the final phases of moving on, especially with a new person, and how that has been triggering some residual affair junk within me. <<Hugs>>

[HadMeOverABarrel]

The OP is doing a whole lot better than other OW's I see.

 

Kudos!

 

Thanks Popsicle. I'm not 100%, still have some moments of confusion and sadness here and there, but I am definitely getting there. In those moments, I calmly tell myself to keep moving forward, and then remind myself I am feeling like that because xMM is where he is (not with me) by his choice, which also means there is no point in wasting more emotional energy on him...a man who did not perceive my value. Getting stirred up is just more waste on a situation that has no reciprocation...and more investment in a failing venture while losing opportunities elsewhere that would reciprocate.

[HadMeOverABarrel]

Why on earth are you keeping correspondence, let alone looking at it???

 

Poppy

 

It's a fair question, Poppy. I rarely read any of it. Keeping it has served me in the past though, especially when I first went hard into NC. I was of course emotionally wrecked. Part of that was feeling like a victim. The emails were useful when I reviewed them with my counselor. In reading them, I realized there were moments when I had stuck up for myself with xMM, which made me feel like I didn't totally 10000% fail myself. That helped me feel better. Also, my therapist was able to give me some peace about a couple things, that came straight from her reading xMM's own words.

 

Now, if anything, reading some of it reminds me why I need to keep moving forward...away from A. That is especially true when I read how xMM got defensive and projected/stonewalled whenever I asked him to be accountable, answer my questions honestly, stop avoiding and manipulating. His writings remind me how he was not such a great guy in dealing with me, affair or no affair. That helps to keep moving forward with him in my review mirror. It works for me, but may not work for everyone.

 

Lastly, I have not blocked him because I know he is too chicken to actually reach out. This is a daily reminder to me that he is unworthy. Every day that goes by reminds me how little he has valued me, and his lack of effort is a constant reminder of that. Surely makes it easier to walk away for me. In other words, I never have to wonder, "Is he trying to reach me? Is he sorry/trying to apologize/being a better person?" Nah, I already know the answer, and can not deny it to myself with the irrefutable evidence--he never reaches out, which proves that I was barely a blip on his radar, and not even a blip now.

Edited February 20, 2018 by HadMeOverABarrel

[Vivir]

I don't know, HadMe, the consensus around here is that it is far more manipulative and destructive when the MP reaches out during NC despite knowing that the xAP has asked for no further contact; thus, xAP's not reaching out during NC is what is respectful...

 

but I digress.

 

I have to admit that I felt some flattery when xMM sporadically attempted contact... even though it was quite jarring. I mean, he even showed up at my home once... Unfortunately, I was unable to reconcile the above argument: is he contacting me because he actually loves and misses me... or is he doing it because it is easier to keep an OW than to groom a new one??? Since his actions did not match the former, I had no choice but to lean toward the latter.

 

These days, I keep stumbling over my shame and supposed lack of worthiness. I feel that these feelings have been exacerbated due to my additional experience of having told a romantic prospect (someone I had formerly dated) the truth about the affair and subsequently being ghosted. Actually, this has happened twice (two different guys)... I feel a great deal of shame, like I am untouchable, when I think of what happened in these scenarios... I feel like I am wearing the shame on my face (that scarlet letter "A") when I see either of them, they know my secret and have deemed me unworthy, undateable... they could have nothing further to do with me AT ALL. In their eyes, any value I had dissolved into nothingness. Having to fight against these thoughts in my mind is horrible.

 

Like you, when these thoughts become overwhelming, I repeat to myself, "I am letting go and moving on." I mean, what else, really, can I do other than that? I cannot undo the past. It is now a part of my history and has shaped who I am as a person...

 

While I am too cheap to see a counselor, I have been reading tons of helpful articles into my voice recorder and then listening to them later on when I feel down... last week, I focused these articles on how I had been feeling: extreme anger, being used (not chosen and thus discarded repeatedly, A and otherwise), shame, depression, etc... It has been working! In fact, I call them my "healing the soul" sessions since I add in my own thoughts and commentary on what I am reading

 

Sometimes, though, everything about it all is so exhausting.

 

By the way, I would be interested in delving more into this affair hangover phenomenon that you mentioned...

[FMW]

These days, I keep stumbling over my shame and supposed lack of worthiness. I feel that these feelings have been exacerbated due to my additional experience of having told a romantic prospect (someone I had formerly dated) the truth about the affair and subsequently being ghosted. Actually, this has happened twice (two different guys)... I feel a great deal of shame, like I am untouchable, when I think of what happened in these scenarios... I feel like I am wearing the shame on my face (that scarlet letter "A") when I see either of them, they know my secret and have deemed me unworthy, undateable... they could have nothing further to do with me AT ALL. In their eyes, any value I had dissolved into nothingness. Having to fight against these thoughts in my mind is horrible.

 

That is a huge fear of mine. I'm currently a little interested in someone who is a very successful and accomplished and respected person, we've started spending time together as friends for now. I keep thinking I'm not "good enough" for him because of my experience. I'm sure if I ever told him about my being an OW (especially since he knows the xMM) he would lose all interest and respect for me.

[Vivir]

Finding My Way,

It is tricky... especially since the person you're interested in knows your xMM. The two revelations took place over the course of 1.5 years. One of the guys knew xMM on a superficial level. I had been dating each of the single guys for 3-6 months (not at the same time), and honestly thought things were getting more serious and that is why I disclosed the information. But I had been asked about it directly in both instances. I promised myself I wouldn't lie, because authenticity is one of my values.

 

Quite a few people here told me not to disclose, and quite a few people told me to disclose... my problem was determining when to disclose. I mean, do you wait until you've been married to the person for twenty years to tell them that kind of thing about your past? Or do you tell them up front so they won't feel "misled" as you progress into officially being an item. That was my dilemma...

 

Going forward for the time being, I am refusing to bring it up. Still, I will not lie if I am asked about it directly, but I am letting go and moving on. I realize that as I make peace with my history as an OW, the only person I owe anything to at this point is myself.

 

I need to be OK with it before I can help anyone else be OK with it.

 

And if we are *dating*, right now, and not in a relationship, I just don't care about what a potential partner wants in terms of knowing about my past that is over and done with. Maybe I will change my mind again in time.

 

I honestly wish I hadn't said anything to anyone about it and kept my business to myself. Of course, you'll have to gauge your own situation for yourself.

 

There are posts within other threads that address this very issue. The advice is mixed.

 

The best advice I can give you at the moment would be to continue to work through how you're feeling about the affair, learn to make your peace with it. If you're dating or interested in someone, date them and remain friends for as long as possible. Put some distance between you and the affair.

 

You can't help anyone else be OK with your past affair before you are OK with your past affair.

 

Wishing you good luck!

[georgia girl]

Vivir,

 

I applaud you for your honesty and integrity. Quite frankly, if being with an honest woman who acknowledges her past wasn’t something either guy respected, then it is THEIR loss, not YOURS. They don’t deserve you if they had had time to get to know the real you, had earned your trust enough for you to share a painful secret and then rejected you. Scrape them off. You deserve better.

[Vivir]

I really appreciate your message, Georgia Girl. Thank you I agree with you, and I tell myself that they were well within their right not to choose me to be in their lives. And I am well within mine to keep them both at a great distance. I am polite, I will give a nod to the one who gave me a slow fade, but I don't talk to either of them. I don't even acknowledge the one who ghosted me. I try like hell to hold my head high despite my feelings of acute shame whenever I see these two guys out and about, and sometimes I even have a little cry off in the corner somewhere before going on with my day...

 

 

I just realized that I totally threadjacked HadMe's thread! So sorry