Ladies, Would You Date a 39-Year-Old Physics Grad Student?

[Imajerk17]

Well, as someone who nearly went into academia (STEM)--and who has worked in the private business sector--I can see both sides to this.

 

1. Science PhDs are indeed quite prone to becoming out of touch with how the rest of the world works. We can become obsessed with our *ideas* (about stuff 99.99% of the world hardly cares about no less) whereas most people out in the private business sector are focused on *results*. Two completely different things. The former is about how smart you are, the latter is about how well you deal with people--how well you can get what people are really asking for, how well you deal with turf wars, how well you negotiate, whether you're a good team player. You can be the smartest guy in the room and no one will listen to you unless you can do these things well. Do your coworkers think you are a cool competent guy or do they feel you are out of touch.

 

Now that said, getting back to the OP's situation, his biggest challenge won't be his financial situation per se, it will instead be showing his dates that he is on the same wavelength as they are. He is in his late 30s still living like he is in his early 20s because he decided to pursue ideas that (right or wrong, just being blunt here) very few people care about. Can he connect with his dates emotionally. And his situation is different from mine in that I left grad school in my late 20s, bumped around in a few (really) low-paying post graduate jobs after that, and then finally got on my current career path at 34.

 

 

2. Becoming a Full Professor is actually much more challenging than getting a PhD. You need a PhD to become a Full Professor, but then you need to get hired by a University (many more PhDs than University openings), and then in the next 7 years you not only have to do research but you have to bring in grants, mentor students, give talks on your research to quite a high level...basically you have to wear a bunch of hats really well. And if you don't get Tenure--many do not--there are plenty more people behind you for the University to hire. (Sort of OT from the original topic but definitely worth mentioning.)

Edited March 16, 2018 by Imajerk17

[littleblackheart]

Whoa! Whoa! You're reading more negativity into my posts than there is in me. I accept things at face value, then I am misunderstood. Do I need to use more emojis? Well yeah! Would he really send me his CV if you asked? I want to know who he is. I expect this is someone already somewhat famous. As you said, he is already accomplished, so it's got to be more of an honorary tenure. That's why I think if you googled his name, you'd find news of which university got him. (Not really comparable to the OP's situation).

 

Yes, maybe the use of emojis would be more helpful. As it was, I got a huge dose of patronising with a dollop of misjudged assumptions and not very suble sarcasm. I don't need to google his name btw - why would I? I know him in person...You believe what you want to believe re his tenure, I don't really care tbh (do would he, knowing him).

 

Anyway. I don't know what you'd advise your masters students but as it turns out, he's already embarked on it and he doesn't look too concerned about his professional prospects (and good for him).

 

Whether he does find a woman who will get where he's at and where he's heading, whether he gets to where he wants to be is up to him. He'39, not 24; he knows what he's doing.

 

I'm saying it's possible; I prefer healthy optimism to doom and gloom, and I like to share it.

Edited March 16, 2018 by littleblackheart

[Els]

 

The caveat with OP is that he is a man and 39. So? I was 28yo (woman) when I finished but even if I was 39yo woman, i don’t think I would have been having such a backlash at me. But here we see reverse sexism STRONGLY. OP is a guy, so what? What’s wrong if he’s making less money than his future lover/GF/wife?? She’d not be willing to support him if she’s in a better financial standing than him just because thats how it was in the prehistoric days? Oh great, Love is ‘real’ BUT conditional ....

 

Heterosexual people having different preferences isn't necessarily "sexism" - by your definition of the term, technically even preferring to date men or women would be considered "sexist", no?

 

If it helps, if the OP was a woman, especially one who wanted kids, he/she would likely be in an equally difficult position.

 

FWIW, the majority of PhD grads do fine, I think. But most of them didn't spend 21 years in college. The ones who got their PhD at 41 usually had a career beforehand, and the ones who stayed in college usually get it by 30. Realistically, I think the best way for the OP to improve his odds is to bust his ass to try and catch up to most of his peers. AFAIK he has never had a girlfriend, so clearly his situation is a problem, at least to the women he meets - it seems a bit facetious and unhelpful to try and tell him that it will all be okay and that most women will love him when that isn't really the case.

[littleblackheart]

Heterosexual people having different preferences isn't necessarily "sexism" - by your definition of the term, technically even preferring to date men or women would be considered "sexist", no?

 

If it helps, if the OP was a woman, especially one who wanted kids, he/she would likely be in an equally difficult position.

 

FWIW, the majority of PhD grads do fine, I think. But most of them didn't spend 21 years in college. The ones who got their PhD at 41 usually had a career beforehand, and the ones who stayed in college usually get it by 30. Realistically, I think the best way for the OP to improve his odds is to bust his ass to try and catch up to most of his peers. AFAIK he has never had a girlfriend, so clearly his situation is a problem, at least to the women he meets - it seems a bit facetious and unhelpful to try and tell him that it will all be okay and that most women will love him when that isn't really the case.

 

No one told him all or most women will love him no matter what. What I said personally is that it is possible. Maybe OP is an outlier.

 

Had he not started his programme of studies, my advice would be totally different - and in fact has been only recently to another younger prospective PhD student who was looking to doing a PhD and start a family.

 

He is now doing it; he already knows it's difficult or he wouldn't be posting his concerns here. I started my PhD as a mother already in my mid 30s. I know I'm a woman so it's different but men aren't put off by my situation. I am in employment and getting involved in projects I couldn't do without a PhD, and I am actually fine so I'm sharing my positive experience. It doesn't always have to be bad.

 

His issues with women will not be down to being a 39yo Grad student - in real life, this is not putting women off to the extent the thread is showing.

 

Yes, women would be dating a 39yo grad student in theory. Would they date him specifically, I don't know, but that's not the subject of the thread.

Edited March 16, 2018 by littleblackheart

[lana-banana]

I agree with those saying these kinds of threads aren't very productive. It's a big world. There will always be someone who's interested in you, but some may be harder to find than others. I think you have some significant things against you, but that hardly makes them insurmountable.

 

- Salary: if you're looking for a professional your own age, most will have a tidy nest egg at this point and may be put off by your lack of the same, especially in California. Many of us had starving student or intern days, but worked our way up. A lot of people won't want to relive that. You may do well looking for people who are very wealthy already or are happy being extremely frugal.

 

- LTR and life inexperience: Many women will assume someone your age can handle heartbreak, frustration, job shocks, awkward silences in the car when you're annoyed at each other, etc. Sex is easy enough to learn, but being a good partner in a relationship (or a teammate, manager, etc) is something you practice. This alone would be a no from me.

 

- The model airplane club thing: so I actually think the club itself is quirky and fun, and if we were at a cocktail party I would legitimately want to learn more. The red flag for me (and I'm only speaking for myself here) is the degree of involvement with kids who are half your age. I always feel uncomfortable with people who don't have friends their own age, because it suggests serious immaturity or arrested development. If you in fact have tons of friend groups at all ages then this wouldn't bother me. But a guy who's almost 40 spending his free time with college kids makes me wonder.

 

My oldest sister has five degrees and is one of the smartest people I know. She's a teacher and has been happily employed for years, but she is also profoundly immature in some ways, so much so that she's all but incapable of smart relationship choices. Advanced degrees don't make you better or worse off than anyone else, in any sense of the word.

 

OP, I am sure you can find a woman for you, but the first step is to stop obsessing over whether potential partners should feel justified in rejecting you or not. As Elswyth said, get out there and bust your ass---not just at a job, but at everything that can give you more experience in life and love.

Edited March 16, 2018 by lana-banana

[Els]

No one told him all or most women will love him no matter what. What I said personally is that it is possible. Maybe OP is an outlier.

 

Had he not started his programme of studies, my advice would be totally different - and in fact has been only recently to another younger prospective PhD student who was looking to doing a PhD and start a family.

 

He is now doing it; he already knows it's difficult or he wouldn't be posting his concerns here. I started my PhD as a mother already in my mid 30s. I know I'm a woman so it's different but men aren't put off by my situation. I am in employment and getting involved in projects I couldn't do without a PhD, and I am actually fine so I'm sharing my positive experience. It doesn't always have to be bad.

 

His issues with women will not be down to being a 39yo Grad student - in real life, this is not putting women off to the extent the thread is showing.

 

Yes, women would be dating a 39yo grad student in theory. Would they date him specifically, I don't know, but that's not the subject of the thread.

 

It IS the subject of the thread though - his opening post made the context quite clear.

 

I don't think anyone is telling him to just roll over and die, or even saying that PhDs are universally a terrible idea. Personally, what I'm saying is that he's being incredibly idealistic in assuming that a great job will just fall into his lap once he graduates with no job experience. Ergo he needs to get job experience as soon as he possibly can. This will be beneficial to him in all ways - career, money, and attractiveness

[littleblackheart]

It IS the subject of the thread though - his opening post made the context quite clear.

 

I don't think anyone is telling him to just roll over and die, or even saying that PhDs are universally a terrible idea. Personally, what I'm saying is that he's being incredibly idealistic in assuming that a great job will just fall into his lap once he graduates with no job experience. Ergo he needs to get job experience as soon as he possibly can. This will be beneficial to him in all ways - career, money, and attractiveness

 

I totally agree about the work experience. Having said that, my advice is largely based on the assumption that at 39, OP knows the risks he is taking and is fully aware of the situation.

 

Many posts on this thread did in fact paint an unnecessary bad picture of OP's situation, including doing a PhD at that stage in his life - honestly, the usual 'but street smarts is so much more important' stereotypes are tedious and it's easy to see why someone who does have a PhD would be feeling defensive. It's a task that requires a lot more than just being academic and tenacious. I know from very lengthy and painful experience as a one-time mature student myself.. It's seriously annoying to systematically have it demoted to 'pointless 4-year slog' by people who have no experience of it (having friends or colleagues who have done it isn't quite the same, sorry). I don't want OP to start having second thoughts about something he's already embarked upon based on the negative reactions on LS.

 

Like I said, he may have other issues attracting women that have nothing to do with his PhD or stage in life. I was in his shoes (and far worse) not so long ago and I never felt it had an impact on how men would see me. I'm still early in my academic career at 43, and there really are no issues.

[jay1983]

I think a big difference is you date men, while he dates women.

[thefooloftheyear]

 

Like I said, he may have other issues attracting women that have nothing to do with his PhD or stage in life. I was in his shoes (and far worse) not so long ago and I never felt it had an impact on how men would see me. I'm still early in my academic career at 43, and there really are no issues.

 

 

If you looked good enough, you could be cleaning bird shyt out of cuckoo clocks for a living, and it there really wouldn't be any issues...

 

Such is life as a man.......

 

TFY

[CptInsano]

I think a big difference is you date men, while he dates women.

 

Agreed, even though it's not quite as bleak as some here painted it. There are indeed women out there who simply want an educated man, not matter what he makes. I mean, I've had two women leave absolutely no doubt that they saw me as husband material, and that money wouldn't be an issue.

 

But, and I may sound like a broken record, his degree or income may not be the deciding factor at all. All the stuff that the OP didn't mention may be of far higher importance.

[littleblackheart]

I think a big difference is you date men, while he dates women.

 

I don't actually date but I get what you are saying. Still, a PhD is a PhD. Its difficulty is not gender-dependent. If anything, I can tell you that going through that as a single working mum is no walk in the park and as I'm 43, there is zero way a decent guy would date me if I didn't have my life together as a mother of 2.

 

Some women will give OP a chance, provided the rest all lines up. I personally have a soft spot for the guy who tries to defy the odds.

[jay1983]

Well I was going to say that there are plenty of women who make only 40 to 50 grand, PhD or not. If when and done he has trouble dating, that's where I w9uld tell him to look.

[basil67]

Well as much as there are exceptions, on average people with PhDs are of higher intelligence than those without. That’s a fact.

 

Though there seems to be no link between academic intelligence and emotional intelligence. While it would be good to have a partner who had both, if I had to choose one, I'd choose the emotionally intelligent one.

[Imajerk17]

If you looked good enough, you could be cleaning bird shyt out of cuckoo clocks for a living, and it there really wouldn't be any issues...

 

Such is life as a man.......

 

TFY

 

But there are dudes in prison who have all these women writing them, so...

[thefooloftheyear]

But there are dudes in prison who have all these women writing them, so...

 

Membership does have it's privileges....

 

 

TFY

[minimariah]

People learn a lot about themselves and the world from their first few full time jobs... a lot.

 

i did not - in fact... it wasn't anything new to me... it wasn't a barrier; i was in the OP's shoes... entered medical school at the age of 28, became a medical doctor at the age of 34 & specialized oncology at the age of 42 (i'm now 44) - as a medical student... i was ALREAD working full time. so actually WORKING, starting to work... did not really change a thing for me, i did not really learn anything from it, it wasn't a milestone.

 

i did - however - learn a lot from being a student at the age of 28, fighting discouragement & judgement... a lot more than from working full time. i was also, before that, a failed student of law and only had experience working as a student, during 3 months of summer, as a tourist guide.

 

why didn't i enter med school sooner...? various reasons - i was depressed from studying something i did not like, pressured from my parents... it took me two extra years to prepare my exam for medical school and well - time moves FAST... so i understand how OP got himself in this situation.

 

to me - by far - the biggest problem would be the fact that the OP did not have a serious relationship at the age of 39... now, THAT would bother me. everything else...? not really.

[minimariah]

I don't think people really understand how relatively short a time they have to "make their way" in this world...

 

well... that depends on a LOT of things - for example: loans... now, in America, student loans are normal. i'm European and where i come from - education is free for EVERYONE, rarely do students feel the need to get loans and even when they do... it's a very small amount. so while a regular American will be crushed with a student loan by the time they finish their education... i wasn't. nobody in my environment ever needed to get a student loan.

 

also - house & car; in my case... i inherited a house from my parents & they bought me a car when i was 25. so it definitely matters what kind of family you're coming from - it's not the same when you have parents to financially back you up & when you're all alone, starting from 0. in terms of money, it's not the same.

 

But if you start that late(40's), unless you have some major epic plan, you have only a decade or so...

 

in my country - legal retirement age is 67 for both men and women... so if i start my career around 45 years of age (for example)... i have about 22 years to go, which is a LOOOOOOOOONG time! ;-)

 

about your body detoriating - 50s are not new 90s - at 50, you'll probably be bald & with a beer belly, but you'll still be able to do your 9-5 job & therefore, make money. so no worries.

 

as a medical student... i was ALREAD working full time.

just wanted to clarify this - i wasn't working while being a med student; i wanted to say that, to me, being a med student was a full time job. as a student, going to the lectures 5hrs a day & studying for about 7,8 hrs a day felt like a much bigger work than, for example, a work of our university's secretary who played Tetris 90% of her "full time job"; that being said... PhD is also a kind of JOB.

Edited March 17, 2018 by minimariah

[minimariah]

Though there seems to be no link between academic intelligence and emotional intelligence.

 

there is definitely a link, emotional intelligence is a key factor in academic achievements.

[Wave Rider]

I feel like I got my original question answered on this thread, so if everyone wants to talk about whatever else, I guess that’s fine. I think that there were also some good points made about status and being “elite” that were useful for me.

 

I’m still not sure how effective online dating will be for me. Maybe I’ll just have to try it. I did create a profile on Coffee Meets Bagel, and we’ll see how that goes. My biggest concern here is that the nature of online dating requires people to decide in two-thirds of a second whether or not a prospect is worth getting to know further, and I would be concerned tha women would see “39-year-old grad student” and immediately swipe left, so to speak. Wheras if I meet people in person, there is more opportunty for connection and shared experience. Online dating allows people to screen specifically for looks, money, age, and status, all while making authentic connection more difficult. Which, in my opinion, is exactly why OLD doesn’t work as well as face-to-face meetings. Mutual friends are still the #1 way that people meet their spouses. I’ll give OLD my best shot, but I still think that meeting people in person will be more effective. I’m just not sure where to go for that yet.

[Els]

i did not - in fact... it wasn't anything new to me... it wasn't a barrier; i was in the OP's shoes... entered medical school at the age of 28, became a medical doctor at the age of 34 & specialized oncology at the age of 42 (i'm now 44) - as a medical student... i was ALREAD working full time. so actually WORKING, starting to work... did not really change a thing for me, i did not really learn anything from it, it wasn't a milestone.

 

Medical doctors are already working, specialization is just a "promotion" of sorts. Like tenure for a Professor. I don't see any correlation between your history and the OP's to be honest.

 

I also don't think your experience invalidates anything I said. You might be an outlier, or it's possible that medical school by definition involves enough practical experience that it's the equivalent of working (I know the SO had to do a year of compulsory internship in a hospital before he was allowed to graduate). He did also tell me that he learned a LOT in his first few years as a doctor, though, so I'll probably go with the "outlier" guess. I don't actually know anyone who didn't learn a lot from their first time out in the real world.

 

why didn't i enter med school sooner...? various reasons - i was depressed from studying something i did not like, pressured from my parents... it took me two extra years to prepare my exam for medical school and well - time moves FAST... so i understand how OP got himself in this situation.

Your situation has no similarities with OP from what I can see. Being an oncologist at 42 is the equivalent of being a Prof with tenure at 42, not the equivalent of finishing your PhD at that age with zero prior work experience.

[basil67]

I feel like I got my original question answered on this thread, so if everyone wants to talk about whatever else, I guess that’s fine. I think that there were also some good points made about status and being “elite” that were useful for me.

 

I’m still not sure how effective online dating will be for me. Maybe I’ll just have to try it. I did create a profile on Coffee Meets Bagel, and we’ll see how that goes. My biggest concern here is that the nature of online dating requires people to decide in two-thirds of a second whether or not a prospect is worth getting to know further, and I would be concerned tha women would see “39-year-old grad student” and immediately swipe left, so to speak. Wheras if I meet people in person, there is more opportunty for connection and shared experience. Online dating allows people to screen specifically for looks, money, age, and status, all while making authentic connection more difficult. Which, in my opinion, is exactly why OLD doesn’t work as well as face-to-face meetings. Mutual friends are still the #1 way that people meet their spouses. I’ll give OLD my best shot, but I still think that meeting people in person will be more effective. I’m just not sure where to go for that yet.

 

I personally wouldn't lead with "39yo grad student". Instead I'd lead with what you're working at at present and that thanks to your recent PhD you're looking forward to new challenges.

[Els]

I totally agree about the work experience. Having said that, my advice is largely based on the assumption that at 39, OP knows the risks he is taking and is fully aware of the situation.

 

Many posts on this thread did in fact paint an unnecessary bad picture of OP's situation, including doing a PhD at that stage in his life - honestly, the usual 'but street smarts is so much more important' stereotypes are tedious and it's easy to see why someone who does have a PhD would be feeling defensive. It's a task that requires a lot more than just being academic and tenacious. I know from very lengthy and painful experience as a one-time mature student myself.. It's seriously annoying to systematically have it demoted to 'pointless 4-year slog' by people who have no experience of it (having friends or colleagues who have done it isn't quite the same, sorry). I don't want OP to start having second thoughts about something he's already embarked upon based on the negative reactions on LS.

 

I really am not slagging PhDs as pointless, though. I was responding to the posts that go, "Oh, anyone who doesn't want to date a PhD student doesn't like smart guys, I do so it's fine etc etc". Being a PhD student in and of itself does not necessarily say anything about intelligence, and it doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't want to date a 41-yo man who has never worked full-time before 'doesn't care about intelligence'. FTR, I identify as sapiosexual.

 

I do think that PhDs get a lot of undeserved flak and I wish they didn't. On the other hand, very few PhDs (certainly none of my friends) have the very naive idea that they'll have an amazing job immediately after they graduate without needing to do anything else.

[guest569]

I don't actually date but I get what you are saying. Still, a PhD is a PhD. Its difficulty is not gender-dependent. If anything, I can tell you that going through that as a single working mum is no walk in the park and as I'm 43, there is zero way a decent guy would date me if I didn't have my life together as a mother of 2.

 

Some women will give OP a chance, provided the rest all lines up. I personally have a soft spot for the guy who tries to defy the odds.

 

Oh. The thread specifically asks “ladies” if they would date a 39 yo student man.

So yeah, gender comes into it.

If we are going to switch it. Same goes. I wouldn’t want to support a 42 yo woman who “will maybe get an awesome job some day”. How am I going to buy a house and support kids with someone who is earning 30k? I’ll not only be doing all the house work while he/she goes off to study or to their future potentially awesome job. I’ll be contributing majority of the bread. Dating for fun and friendship? Sure! Relationship? Nah. 50/50 is not a big ask.

 

About the intelligence thing.. my ex was a doctor who was super intelligent emotionally and academically (in his field). I also dated a window cleaner who was very intelligent and I had no trouble being “intellectually stimulated” by him. But maybe I don’t know any better as i don’t have a PhD. My point is not to rule out potential dates because you think they can’t keep up. Otherwise you’re just a snob who doesn’t even have the piece of paper to back it up.

Edited March 17, 2018 by smiley1

[littleblackheart]

 

I do think that PhDs get a lot of undeserved flak and I wish they didn't. On the other hand, very few PhDs (certainly none of my friends) have the very naive idea that they'll have an amazing job immediately after they graduate without needing to do anything else.

 

I didn't get the sense OP was particularly naive. Honesty, you can't afford to be, as a mature student. If he's not concerned about his professional prospects, maybe he knows something we don't.

 

Besides, those women who will be interested (as OP pointed out, real life is totally different to the Court of LS) may not be into PhDs (a minute percentage of the world population anyway) or a high salary straight from the off, but rather the risk taking and the ability to sustain a high level, intensive intellectual effort for a long period of time.

[minimariah]

I don't actually know anyone who didn't learn a lot from their first time out in the real world.

 

ok... but - my question is - what makes you think that the OP is not ALREADY out there in the real world...? he is 39 and he does have SOME work experience, will working full time be such a huge difference to him? didn't he mature in some other ways - just by being a late bloomer and having to face issues that other, younger, PhD students didn't?

 

i don't think he's naive - when you're late to the party, you must be aware that you will miss out on many chances simply because the opportunity will go to someone younger - he just believes that his degrees will eventually be awarded with a good job. i do believe he is aware of the fact that that might not happen - i see it as optimism more than naivety.

 

Being an oncologist at 42 is the equivalent of being a Prof with tenure at 42, not the equivalent of finishing your PhD at that age with zero prior work experience.

 

but being a medical doctor at the age 35 is the equivalent of finishing your PhD at 42, especially because age is an important factor in medicine - both myself and the OP are about 10 years behind from our peers (in my country's educational system, students become doctors aged 25 & get their PhDs aged 31/32) - i entered a job market for the first time ever at 34 & the OP will at 41... that's not really that much of a difference so i think our situations are comparable. the only difference is that my field is, by default, employable - his, not so much.

Edited March 17, 2018 by minimariah