What is being unfaithful?

[Ellin]

What is cheating / infidelity?

 

I would love to hear about everyone's point of view. What would hurt you if done by your romantic partner? Or what would you accept as "normal" even if it hurt you (if anything)?

 

What would you do without feeling guilty?

 

I know that there are so many points of view, starting from "even looking at another woman / man is some kind of transgression" (as in religious beliefs) to "everything is allowed with anyone, as long as everyone involved is inormed about it".

 

Then there is everything in between: thinking about someone, fantasizing, imagining stuff with someone, looking at real-life people with sexual interest and thoughts and it can be random strangers in a street or people we know and see regularly, asking someone out and creating situations that can potentially lead to something more, looking at naked people on the internet such as porn or exchanging nude pictures with a particular person, doing live sex chats or live streaming, going to strip clubs either just to watch ot engage in more advanced activities, then actual physical contact such as kissing, all the way to intercourse.

 

I guess everyone will agree that intercourse is cheating, unless it is a case of polyamory when everyone knows and agrees to sharing intimate partners.

 

But where do you draw the line for yourself and where do you draw the line for your partner and are these two lines the same? Would you be hurt by your partner's actions that you yourself have engaged in and didn't think were so bad? Or did / does your partner feel hurt by something you did which you think is normal?

 

I know it's a lot of questions but I just want to hear other people's thoughts and experiences.

 

Thanks.

[d0nnivain]

Cheating is a violation of whatever the 2 parties in the relationship agreed would be the parameters.

 

 

I think EAs are hogwash but some folks take them very seriously. I did get very annoyed when my husband was paying too much attention to a young co-worker. He wasn't cheating but his behavior was problematic.

 

 

If you & your partner promise not to do X, that is the line in the sand. Crossing it equals cheating. I could care less if my husband looks at porn or goes to a strip club once in a while, say as a bachelor party,but if those things were bothersome to me, I would not tolerate a partner who did them.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

If you don't want your partner to find out about it, it's betrayal.

[Ellin]

If you don't want your partner to find out about it, it's betrayal.

 

My partner said he wouldn't mind me watching male striptease, while I would have refrained from doing so if he hasn't told me that. So his tolerance is bigger than what I imagined, therefore while I could feel guilty about doing something, he might not care and not see it as betrayal.

[Ellin]

Cheating is a violation of whatever the 2 parties in the relationship agreed would be the parameters.

 

 

I think EAs are hogwash but some folks take them very seriously. I did get very annoyed when my husband was paying too much attention to a young co-worker. He wasn't cheating but his behavior was problematic.

 

 

If you & your partner promise not to do X, that is the line in the sand. Crossing it equals cheating. I could care less if my husband looks at porn or goes to a strip club once in a while, say as a bachelor party,but if those things were bothersome to me, I would not tolerate a partner who did them.

 

In this case an agreement is the most important thing, but this can also be the most tricky part, no? If one person wants to be stricter about exclusivity than the other.

 

On another note, since you mentioned that you don't mind your H watching porn or a stripper, where is your line? Would it bother you if he saw a friend's nude pic? Or saw someone he knows without clothes on, for example at some crazy party? Is it the fact that porn / strip club is impersonal that makes it acceptable to you? Or anything would be fine as long as it was just looking?

 

You don't have to answer if I'm prying too much.

 

Thanks for your reply.

[carhill]

What is cheating / infidelity?

Often discussed. If you'd like the most concise and relevant explanation, ask your partner or spouse.

 

I mention that because I've had experiences with MW's that I'd consider cheating that they and their spouses apparently don't.....

[smackie9]

It boils down to compatibility with expectations. A lot of women are against porn and strippers where I could care less. In our early days we would go to the peelers together, watch porn together.

 

So it all starts with communication.

[d0nnivain]

What would "bother me" is not necessarily cheating. Cheating -- meaning sex -- is a deal breaker -- meaning my marriage is over & there is no coming back. All this other garbage about where the lines are drawn is something that can probably be resolved.

 

 

One of my dear friends has a tendency to want to flash people when drunk. If DH happens to see her, I'm not going to scream at him but I may enlist his help to get her to bed. If somebody sent unsolicited nudes to my husband, I'm gonna have a chat with the sender. I'm not going to punish him for looking. If he asked for the nudes, then we'd have a problem but even though that would be on the slippery slope to cheating the request would not BE cheating although I would be upset by it. However, I know my husband well enough to know he would never be so crass as to ask, not even from me.

 

 

I'm not going to label every marital transgression infidelity because to do so would dilute the true meaning of that behavior. However, certain behaviors can undermine the sanctity of a marriage & be intolerable without being cheating, for example abuse, crimes or substance dependence.

 

 

You know what you will & won't put up with. Stake out your boundaries & go from there.

[Ellin]

Often discussed. If you'd like the most concise and relevant explanation, ask your partner or spouse.

 

I mention that because I've had experiences with MW's that I'd consider cheating that they and their spouses apparently don't.....

 

Could you possibly point out the best thread to me?

[Ellin]

What would "bother me" is not necessarily cheating. Cheating -- meaning sex -- is a deal breaker -- meaning my marriage is over & there is no coming back. All this other garbage about where the lines are drawn is something that can probably be resolved.

 

 

One of my dear friends has a tendency to want to flash people when drunk. If DH happens to see her, I'm not going to scream at him but I may enlist his help to get her to bed. If somebody sent unsolicited nudes to my husband, I'm gonna have a chat with the sender. I'm not going to punish him for looking. If he asked for the nudes, then we'd have a problem but even though that would be on the slippery slope to cheating the request would not BE cheating although I would be upset by it. However, I know my husband well enough to know he would never be so crass as to ask, not even from me.

 

 

I'm not going to label every marital transgression infidelity because to do so would dilute the true meaning of that behavior. However, certain behaviors can undermine the sanctity of a marriage & be intolerable without being cheating, for example abuse, crimes or substance dependence.

 

 

You know what you will & won't put up with. Stake out your boundaries & go from there.

 

Thank you for explaining more.

 

As for my boundaries, the purpose of this thread is to understand myself and my boudaries as I am very confused at the moment. Things that are fairly mild bothered me recently and I'm trying to understand why and whether I'm being unreasonable.

[carhill]

Could you possibly point out the best thread to me?

Here's a start:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/625100-how-do-we-classify-emotional-affair

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/576191-define-cheating

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/555464-emotional-vs-physical-cheating

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/603624-would-you-consider-flirting-cheating

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/592578-cheating-ever-ok

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/571679-considered-cheating

[Ellin]

Here's a start:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/625100-how-do-we-classify-emotional-affair

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/576191-define-cheating

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/general/general-relationship-discussion/555464-emotional-vs-physical-cheating

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/603624-would-you-consider-flirting-cheating

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/592578-cheating-ever-ok

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/cheating-flirting-jealousy/571679-considered-cheating

 

Thank you.

 

I am not, however, concerned about whether cheating would ever be acceptable (a whole different issue) or about emotional cheating, unless what you call emotional cheating involves something physical, like fantasizing about it or talking about it with that person. The way I understand emotional cheating is getting emotionally close to someone and sharing yourself with them as in talking about all that you're going through, have gone through, your feelings, wishes, fears etc and in this way developing some bond, feelings etc with a person of the opposite sex (or whatever gender you are interested in).

 

I am concerned about situations that involve body, its intimate parts and its desires. Whether by looking, imagining, touching and whatever else it can be. And I'm wondering how often one leads to another, as in a milder one leads to a more serious one. For example looking at an attractive woman at work leads to fantasies and they lead to asking her out, and that leads to getting physical etc..

[carhill]

Since you've been here nine years or so and LoveShack has some six million posts, many of them on cheating, the advance search feature works wonders. Heck you could search my username and 'cheating' and find thousands of posts on such matters and that's one member of thousands. Huge, rich resource, waiting to be searched.

 

Per your example:

For example looking at an attractive woman at work leads to fantasies and they lead to asking her out, and that leads to getting physical etc..

 

Plenty of data to mine on that. Workplace affairs are quite common. In that case, you'd likely have best results searching or Infidelity and OM/OW forums.

 

However, you bring up a good point. Having a consolidated discussion on the parameters of being unfaithful and/or cheating could be worthwhile. As we don't have any pinned threads in GRD I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, I hope the resources I pointed to help. Be sure to look at the 'similar threads' links at the bottom of each page. Good luck!

[d0nnivain]

How often looking leads to cheating still doesn't resolve your issue. If you are trying to figure out where you stand perhaps you can start a list:

 

 

Definitely is cheating

 

 

Definitely is fine

 

 

Things that I question

 

As for emotional cheating, just talking to a member of the opposite sex, even about deep subjects is not an EA. It doesn't cross into that territory until somebody is only or mostly talking to the 3rd party to the exclusion of their SO & especially if the SO is not welcome in the conversation.

 

 

For example, I started talking to a male colleague this morning about a new show at a local museum. We ended up discussing how to plan a great date / weekend out of upcoming museum shows. That wasn't an EA or even close to it because the guy was telling me things his wife enjoyed & suggesting things he thought my husband would like. It wasn't secret or nefarious; it was a conversation designed to enrich our primary relationships not undermine them. The guy did say that if my husband didn't want to go to one show that I was welcome to go with him & his wife. Again I don't see that as crossing lines because the other guy's wife would be there & my husband would only be absent by my husband's choice, not my preference.

[S2B]

Thank you.

 

I am not, however, concerned about whether cheating would ever be acceptable (a whole different issue) or about emotional cheating, unless what you call emotional cheating involves something physical, like fantasizing about it or talking about it with that person. The way I understand emotional cheating is getting emotionally close to someone and sharing yourself with them as in talking about all that you're going through, have gone through, your feelings, wishes, fears etc and in this way developing some bond, feelings etc with a person of the opposite sex (or whatever gender you are interested in).

 

I am concerned about situations that involve body, its intimate parts and its desires. Whether by looking, imagining, touching and whatever else it can be. And I'm wondering how often one leads to another, as in a milder one leads to a more serious one. For example looking at an attractive woman at work leads to fantasies and they lead to asking her out, and that leads to getting physical etc..

 

Why do you need to ask such specifics about classifying cheating?

 

What's going on that has you needing to describe nit picky guidelines?

[Ellin]

How often looking leads to cheating still doesn't resolve your issue. If you are trying to figure out where you stand perhaps you can start a list:

 

Definitely is cheating

 

 

Definitely is fine

 

 

Things that I question

As for emotional cheating, just talking to a member of the opposite sex, even about deep subjects is not an EA. It doesn't cross into that territory until somebody is only or mostly talking to the 3rd party to the exclusion of their SO & especially if the SO is not welcome in the conversation.

 

 

For example, I started talking to a male colleague this morning about a new show at a local museum. We ended up discussing how to plan a great date / weekend out of upcoming museum shows. That wasn't an EA or even close to it because the guy was telling me things his wife enjoyed & suggesting things he thought my husband would like. It wasn't secret or nefarious; it was a conversation designed to enrich our primary relationships not undermine them. The guy did say that if my husband didn't want to go to one show that I was welcome to go with him & his wife. Again I don't see that as crossing lines because the other guy's wife would be there & my husband would only be absent by my husband's choice, not my preference.

 

Thank you for your suggestion about putting different behaviours in three categories. It sounds useful.

 

As for emotional cheating I obviously wouldn't class what you described as that. Yes, of course it is more than that and it involves exclusion of one's partner etc.

[Ellin]

Why do you need to ask such specifics about classifying cheating?

 

What's going on that has you needing to describe nit picky guidelines?

 

I do not have a need to describe a "nit picky guidelines". I don't even know what you mean by that.

 

I already said that I have been confused recently about what makes me uncomfortable and what doesn't and why that is so, and whether I am being reasonable and this is why I would like to get to know other people's thoughts.

[Ellin]

Since you've been here nine years or so and LoveShack has some six million posts, many of them on cheating, the advance search feature works wonders. Heck you could search my username and 'cheating' and find thousands of posts on such matters and that's one member of thousands. Huge, rich resource, waiting to be searched.

 

Per your example:

 

 

Plenty of data to mine on that. Workplace affairs are quite common. In that case, you'd likely have best results searching or Infidelity and OM/OW forums.

 

However, you bring up a good point. Having a consolidated discussion on the parameters of being unfaithful and/or cheating could be worthwhile. As we don't have any pinned threads in GRD I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, I hope the resources I pointed to help. Be sure to look at the 'similar threads' links at the bottom of each page. Good luck!

 

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

I know that workplace affairs are common. What I asked about doesn't necessarily have to involve workplace, it was just an example. What I was wondering is whether something "innocent" such as looking can lead to more and more and if so, is there anything that can just be completely innocent?

 

If it does lead to more and more then the line of what is ok gets very blurred.

[sgrinaldi]

I am concerned about situations that involve body, its intimate parts and its desires. Whether by looking, imagining, touching and whatever else it can be. And I'm wondering how often one leads to another, as in a milder one leads to a more serious one. For example looking at an attractive woman at work leads to fantasies and they lead to asking her out, and that leads to getting physical etc..

 

Well, I can tell you that I have a close guy friend that I flirt with, and it has never led to anything more serious. I see nothing wrong with it. You just have to be able to know the difference between platonic ‘love’ and romantic love. You can flirt with a friend, even love them like a brother or sister, and yet not be interested in them romantically at all.

 

Now, as far as involving body parts, well, you have to be careful with that! I wouldn’t let it get too physical. My guy friend and I will sometimes get a little touchy-feely, we’ll play fight and get into tickle fights, and we even give each other massages sometimes and I will even sit on his lap a lot, but we never cross the line physically. That’s just too dangerous. I will always back off a bit when I see him getting too aroused, just so he doesn’t get the wrong impression. So I guess I would say it depends. A little touching might be ok, as long as its not to over-the-top, but you have to be careful and stop when you need to.

[d0nnivain]

. What I was wondering is whether something "innocent" such as looking can lead to more and more and if so, is there anything that can just be completely innocent?

 

 

It depends solely on the integrity of the people involved. I can look all day long & not cross lines, not even the innocent ones of being disrespectful & ogling somebody in front of my partner. I'd never do that but I might see a handsome man in passing & think "gee that was a handsome man."

 

 

Simply because I have a conversation with a member of the opposite sex, give that person a peck on the check or even a hug does not mean I'm willing to engage in more risqué behavior but some people think those types of interactions are problematic. In our social circle those behaviors are the norm but everybody knows where the lines are. The people that try to cross the lines get frozen out.

 

 

I had one EX who said it was inappropriate to slow dance with opposite sex people. (I don't grind or twerk so that never came up but even I'd think both of those were questionable.) So even though I thought that was ridiculous, I respected his wishes & didn't dance with others without asking him first. For example, at a friend's wedding I wanted to dance with my friend because he was the groom. So I said that to my SO who was fine with it in that instance. It's about respect.

[road]

Well, I can tell you that I have a close guy friend that I flirt with, and it has never led to anything more serious. I see nothing wrong with it. You just have to be able to know the difference between platonic ‘love’ and romantic love. You can flirt with a friend, even love them like a brother or sister, and yet not be interested in them romantically at all.

 

Now, as far as involving body parts, well, you have to be careful with that! I wouldn’t let it get too physical. My guy friend and I will sometimes get a little touchy-feely, we’ll play fight and get into tickle fights, and we even give each other massages sometimes and I will even sit on his lap a lot, but we never cross the line physically. That’s just too dangerous. I will always back off a bit when I see him getting too aroused, just so he doesn’t get the wrong impression. So I guess I would say it depends. A little touching might be ok, as long as its not to over-the-top, but you have to be careful and stop when you need to.

 

When in a relationship getting another man aroused is going to far.

Even tickle games is too far.

[JDJ]

I would say that you shouldn't do anything with another person that you wouldn't want your partner to see you doing. Porn/masturbation is something different, more like going to the toilet or picking your nose, a bodily function that requires some privacy. Sitting on a member of the opposite sex's lap, slow dancing with romantic intentions (not ceremonial ones), causing an erection, all of those are pretty bad. I don't think you would want your partner to see you do any of that.

 

The words cheating and infidelity come with an implied threat of punishment too. So sitting on a lap might not merit a severe enough reaction to call it "cheating", but it is still not the behavior of a loyal partner.

[todreaminblue]

cheating si betraying your own sense of right and wrong.....it si betraying the heart of another and if you truly love a person you know exactly what cheating on them is....

 

cheating is a faithless place

 

its shadowed and never transparent

cheating is not staying true to a person who believes in you

and stays true to you regardless.....

 

cheating is lying to yourself....and lying to others.....

 

cheating is wrong......thoughtless....selfish.......dishonest....weak...spineless....and avoidant

cheating is traumatising to all those involved.....

cheating is damaging to your own integrity and spirit and damages the spirit fo the person you are supposed to care for and protect.....who you should defend from being hurt and not harm.....

 

cheaters will never prosper......cheating can never be hidden forever.....

cheating changes the way you treat the person you are cheating on...sometimes imperceptible but sometimes glaringly

cheating changes your feelings for the person you are cheating on...because you think less of them and more of you....

 

cheating hardens your heart and disallows true love to enter and be felt...except for love of self.....

 

cheating is never good.......and destroys people......hurts them....and can affect people for the rest of their natural lives in and out of relationships ....

 

cheating allows for feelings of worthlessness and destroys confidence in good men and women who stay true who show courage in the face of temptation......it allows bitterness and insecurity to take hold of once happy hearts...

 

 

cheating is weakness,fickleness....instability and cowardice and lack of honesty and forthrightness and integrity and thoughtfulness and charity and ,.kindness care gentleness.....and all that is....love.....

 

cheating leads to barren places...devoid of...love.....and that is in giving and receiving all that is good and right for your life and the lives of others a cheater should care about.............deb......

[HiCrunchy]

If you don't want your partner to find out about it, it's betrayal.

 

Agreed, it isn't anymore complicated than that.

[snowboy91]

Cheating is a violation of whatever the 2 parties in the relationship agreed would be the parameters.

 

This. Which is actually a layer of compatibility you determine with your potential partner early on in your relationship. If, for example, one person thinks glancing at someone is cheating, but the other thinks that hugs/cuddling is fine, then you have a mismatch.

 

For example, my GF thinks that anything from mouth kissing onwards is cheating. I have a lot of female friends - that would make a lot of girls uncomfortable because it seems like I'm looking elsewhere, but I see them solely as friends, and I do what I can to prove that that's all it is. My GF and I also both know it's unreasonable for us NOT to look at other guys/girls - so if one catches our eye, we joke about it!

 

Unfortunately for those less experienced, boundaries are sometimes vague and haven't even been discovered yet. You might not have considered something to be a problem until your partner actually starts doing it.

 

OP if you're confused about boundaries which you alluded to in one of your posts, I would suggest this: Think about exactly what it is that you feel is the boundary. Is it the act itself or is it the implied "slippery slope"? And is there a way for you to be reassured that said slippery slope won't happen?