His wife found out and he suddenly abandoned me.I am heart broken.... ....

[ViridianBlue]

when MM tells me about what his wife is doing to get him to be close/loving i become resentful too.

 

Pay attention to your feelings of resentment. It’s your self preservation kicking in to the huge red flags of the situation. You're not getting your needs met in this one side arrangement. Pay attention to his actions, not his words. You will see the actions do not align. Let your resentment grow for him so you can finally cut yourself free. This is where I’m getting myself emotionally so I can cut MM off for good.

It’s not worth getting into an emotional tug of war trying to wim him over. Let his wife have him, he’s no prize.

[anika99]

Abandoned,

 

I know you believe what he has told you about his wife and marriage and I would guess that he appeared very sincere and gave detailed examples. But here’s what you don’t know:

 

All of the stories he has told you are of the bad times; he isn’t likely sharing stories of the good times. That wouldn’t allow him to justify his behavior.

 

He says she’s ignored him/been neglectful, but he’s the one out cheating while she has stayed faithful. Plus, he is again telling you the stories where he was left out. What about the times when she changed plans for him, did something special for him? You don’t think they exist because he doesn’t tell you those stories but again, he has absolutely no incentive to.

 

From my own history, when my dad’s other woman called up my mom, she told my mother what a gold digger she was, how she mistreated my dad and put the kids ahead of him, how she never allowed my dad to pursue his own interests and never tried to spend time with him. What hurt my mom the most was she knew that her impression had come directly from my dad.

 

The truth? My mom married my dad when they were young and poor - the money came later. My mom put us kids first because dad was never home. She allowed him to pursue his interests repeatedly - agreeing to buying a second family home where he wanted and all of the acroutrements that came with it. And finally, she did that - when the second home wasn’t something she really wanted - so we could spend time together and she and dad could have time alone. We always went on vacation where HE wanted and my mom made a home cooked, full-course dinner every night - which he often showed up late for.

 

My dad very likely believed what he had told his OW at the time. When he finally got his head on straight - and it took years - I think that was one of the things that bothered my mom the most. That all of her years of sacrifice, he had filtered them through his selfish lens to make his behavior not just acceptable, but justifiable.

 

In the end, what he said wasn’t true and I am telling you this because I know you want so very badly to believe your MM. But, believing him is the absolutely worst thing you can do for yourself. You likely have spent the weekend pining for him and can’t wait to get back to work on Tuesday. Is that any way to live your life?

 

Please start disentangling yourself and when free, spend a little time figuring out why you ever allowed yourself to set yourself up for disaster. Married men are exactly that: married. They have a life, commitments, family and a love somewhere else. By picking someone who already loved someone else - despite what they say at the time - you set yourself up to compete for love and that is soul destroying. Find someone who enriched you. Who wants to be with you full time. Who wants to share meals, chores, vacations, daily life, family and bills with you. Don’t pick someone who has made and is still making that commitment to someone else.

 

You sound so committed to him. I hope you keep reading here - look up old threads and read incessantly until you see the cold hard truth: 98% of these stories end the same way. This is a recipe for disaster.

 

Exactly this. It takes two to tango my dear. In the absence of substance abuse or mental illness or personality disorders there is very rarely good guys and bad guys in a relationship. Both people contribute to the problems.

 

If you had been bff's with his wife and never met him, then you likely would have thought he was the villain in the marriage because you would have been hearing their problems from her perspective. She would have been telling you all about everything she does for him, how hard she has tried, how he hurts her time and time again, etc. That is why it is impossible to objectively judge another's relationship or marriage. Marriage counselors meet with both spouses and they get both sides. They listen to both perspectives. They don't just have one spouse come in and describe the marriage and then think they have all the information.

 

In the big picture it doesn't matter why his wife is being loving to him. If it's because she truly loves him or if it's because she's putting on a big act so she can use him, it doesn't change your situation. Your situation is that you are not happy with this arrangement and only you can change your situation. Time to take responsibility for your own life and happiness.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Your situation is that you are not happy with this arrangement and only you can change your situation. Time to take responsibility for your own life and happiness.

 

Exactly. OP, there are only two choices here for you:

 

1. Stay put and be second in line forever. He's not leaving his wife. Period.

 

2. Leave and find someone who makes you first in line.

 

If you're ok with never being number uno, by all means do nothing.

[abandoned2018]

Pay attention to your feelings of resentment. It’s your self preservation kicking in to the huge red flags of the situation. You're not getting your needs met in this one side arrangement. Pay attention to his actions, not his words. You will see the actions do not align. Let your resentment grow for him so you can finally cut yourself free. This is where I’m getting myself emotionally so I can cut MM off for good.

It’s not worth getting into an emotional tug of war trying to wim him over. Let his wife have him, he’s no prize.

 

 

 

 

thank you... i think i ll try to keep thinking on this path..

[abandoned2018]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

[eye of the storm]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

 

Abandoned, what does this matter? It should make you even madder and more determined to get out! Stop thinking of this guy as someone who is trapped in an evil marriage and if he could just escape....he would run to you and you would live happily ever after with unicorns farting everywhere.

 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is an unhappy marriage and neither of them love the other. They are only staying together for xyz. He is still choosing that over you. He would rather be unhappy with her than in public with you.

 

I'm sorry. That is the fact. He is doing everything he can think of to get you to love him and accept a life as a dirty secret. Not because he loves you or wants to be with you forever, but because you make his life cooler. But not cool enough to leave his marriage.

 

If you don't start valuing yourself, in six plus years or so you will still be on here complaining about the same stuff and still ignoring all the people who told you to block him and run like hell from the beginning. I still love my MM, probably always will. But every day of NC helps me see how much I hurt myself staying with him.

 

Stop trying to justify him leaving her, start getting angry that he is so ok with your pain. And you, and only you, can fix this. It's not easy, but it will get easier in time.

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

 

Sorry, I don't believe this.

[BaileyB]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

 

Third hand information is not the "truth."

 

And, even if it was true, it's NONE of your business. You are putting yourself somewhere where you do not belong. You do not belong in this marriage.

 

Whether they stay together or not, it is their decision. Right now, all you know is that he is choosing to stay in his marriage, rather than being with you. Let's say it's a bad marriage, he's decided it still preferable to leaving, to be with you. There is no guarantee if he left, that he would be with you. And, even if he did, there is a high risk that he would cheat again, this time - on you.

 

But... If you insist on waiting around, wasting your life, and gambling your future with this liar and cheater... then, far be it from us to try and talk some sense into you. Continue on...

[pepperbird]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

 

 

So you want to believe that someone you know went to a work colleague, asked her about her marriage and she told her that she doesn't love her husband and is only there for her child?

 

 

Sorry but that really doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you are only seeing what you want to see.

 

Want the truth? Ask his wife. Seriously, ask her. The worst that could happen for you is she kicks him to the curb and he comes wheedling his way into your home/life. The best would be that you find out what's really going on.

 

Just for the sake of argument, everything's as terrible as he claims. So his marriage is terrible, he's really unhappy, but he still stays and asks you to remain on the peripheral of his life. He doesn't care enough to stop hurting you and asking you to be miserable just so he doesn't have to upset his comfy life.

 

Does he know how much you are hurting? if not, tell him. Then listen, really listen to what he says. If you need to record it so you don't forget his words, do so. The minute you hear something like " I'm sorry, but.... I can't leave my child/house/car/ dog/cat/goldfish/ boston fern/ whatever", then really think about what he is saying.

 

he is saying that sure he may love you, but that's not enough for him to stop hurting you. It's not enough to end his marriage, nor is it enough to set you free. He simply loves himself more.

[BTDT2012]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

 

 

Gossip doesn't provide the truth.he said/she said is for middle school. Ask his wife if you truly want the truth.

[AlwaysGrowing]

It doesnt matter the state of their marriage. Whether or not the discourse existed prior to the affair is unknown....and often a cheater rewrites marriage history to alleviate the negative self view of their choices. So do AP.

 

No one wants the label of “cheater”, “liar”, “homewrecker”, “any number of colourful negative names for AP” embossed on their forehead for the world to see. Why? Because they themselves also would have the exact same sentiments if it was done to them. So, how do they not emboss it? They lie to themselves. They justify their choices/thoughts/feelings/actions....they throw up smoke screens...they point fingers...they deflect. They tell themselves a narrative that makes them feel better about themselves and situation that they put themselves in. Cognitive Dissonance. They make it more palatable.

 

They often speak from the point of “feelings” instead of truth. You see, although feelings can be “real”, they aren’t necessarily based on truth. Where the truth is the truth...feelings can change...fluctuate...are transient. That is why feelings can be a poor counselor....and why logic yields far better results.

 

Addressing marital issues does not include adding a third party. FULL STOP.

 

Why have YOU added yourself as the third party?

 

That is your only true question to self. Not...look at his wife...oh poor him.

[anika99]

so.. everyone was telling me that what he is telling me about his marriage might not be the truth, i thought there is a valid point in what everyone tried to tell me and i took the initiative to find out his wife's version.... someone who works with her asked her about this and she has said that he is with him for the child and she does not love him...

 

I don't believe this either. First of all why would the BW pour her heart out to a coworker? Secondly anyone who would question the BW that way and then report her answers back to you is no friend to the BW and therefore can't be trusted. Lastly even if their child is one of the reasons for staying together that is not the whole the picture. There has been a recent Dday correct? So the BW is understandably very angry and hurt. Do you really think she would say glowing wonderful things about her husband right now? That she would gush to people how terrific her cheating husband is and beam with love for him?

 

Look children and history and finances and all of those things do figure into a couples decision to divorce or reconcile because it's not easy to continue in a marriage with someone after a betrayal like this. For some love isn't enough of a reason to put themselves through the anguish of forgiving an affair. So while the wife may love her husband very much it's still possible that her reasons for forgiving him are not only about love but about everything else as well. Love is not a very good reason for you to stay stuck in your position as the OW either. You have nothing else tied to this person so you get to walk away scott free with only your broken heart which will heal in time. You are in the better position to leave because you have the least to lose.

[abandoned2018]

Abandoned, what does this matter? It should make you even madder and more determined to get out! Stop thinking of this guy as someone who is trapped in an evil marriage and if he could just escape....he would run to you and you would live happily ever after with unicorns farting everywhere.

 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it is an unhappy marriage and neither of them love the other. They are only staying together for xyz. He is still choosing that over you. He would rather be unhappy with her than in public with you.

 

I'm sorry. That is the fact. He is doing everything he can think of to get you to love him and accept a life as a dirty secret. Not because he loves you or wants to be with you forever, but because you make his life cooler. But not cool enough to leave his marriage.

 

If you don't start valuing yourself, in six plus years or so you will still be on here complaining about the same stuff and still ignoring all the people who told you to block him and run like hell from the beginning. I still love my MM, probably always will. But every day of NC helps me see how much I hurt myself staying with him.

 

Stop trying to justify him leaving her, start getting angry that he is so ok with your pain. And you, and only you, can fix this. It's not easy, but it will get easier in time.

 

 

 

 

thank you. that is a hard hitting message i am going to save on my phone and keep reading!

[abandoned2018]

So you want to believe that someone you know went to a work colleague, asked her about her marriage and she told her that she doesn't love her husband and is only there for her child?

 

 

Sorry but that really doesn't make a lot of sense, unless you are only seeing what you want to see.

 

Want the truth? Ask his wife. Seriously, ask her. The worst that could happen for you is she kicks him to the curb and he comes wheedling his way into your home/life. The best would be that you find out what's really going on.

 

Just for the sake of argument, everything's as terrible as he claims. So his marriage is terrible, he's really unhappy, but he still stays and asks you to remain on the peripheral of his life. He doesn't care enough to stop hurting you and asking you to be miserable just so he doesn't have to upset his comfy life.

 

Does he know how much you are hurting? if not, tell him. Then listen, really listen to what he says. If you need to record it so you don't forget his words, do so. The minute you hear something like " I'm sorry, but.... I can't leave my child/house/car/ dog/cat/goldfish/ boston fern/ whatever", then really think about what he is saying.

 

he is saying that sure he may love you, but that's not enough for him to stop hurting you. It's not enough to end his marriage, nor is it enough to set you free. He simply loves himself more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

she has already talked about the D-day with her friends at work... so the mutual friend just had to ask casually "why are you with him" and that's what she had said.. i know it is not my problem. but i sure do feel a bit better that i haven't been a complete fool, although i do know i am a fool for getting in to a relationship with a married man... my emotions got the best of me, now i am trying to reverse...

[Overtaxed]

Couple tips.

 

Don't believe what married people spew about their marriage. For some insight, get the other side of the story from their spouse and then work to the middle somewhere being the truth.

 

Last tip: Avoid friendships with men unless (this is rare) a common interest is involved and the friendship revolves around that interest and is transparent to all. Men want to bang you. That's kinda crude but it is predominantly true. Married or single. The rest of the stuff is appearances.

 

Two really good tips. My W's AP spun a tale of "no sex" and a loveless marriage. The truth was completely different, he'd have sex with her and then go home to his wife and have sex the same night.

 

And the last point, that's really the one you need to see and understand. Men, in general, don't want to be your friend. I know this is crude, but, most men trying to gain female "friendship" are only doing it because they want to sleep with you. Frankly, unless there's a huge age gap (the woman is much older than the man, the other way doesn't work) or a huge disparity in attractiveness (IE, absolutely no sexual attraction at all from the man to the woman), a male/female friendship is always going to be colored by sexual tension. Stay away from men unless you want to find a sexual partner, that would be my best advice to you.

 

I am not sleeping with him and i won't be sleeping with him... he does not want sex....

 

If he didn't want sex, he wouldn't be speaking to you. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but almost no man will go through the effort of cultivating an EA without the goal of a PA. Sex is the goal, you're just not aware of it/seeing it the way he does. Of course he's telling you he doesn't want sex, that's the easiest way to get a woman to want to have sex with you and drop your guard.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Overtaxed

[anika99]

thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

she has already talked about the D-day with her friends at work... so the mutual friend just had to ask casually "why are you with him" and that's what she had said.. i know it is not my problem. but i sure do feel a bit better that i haven't been a complete fool, although i do know i am a fool for getting in to a relationship with a married man... my emotions got the best of me, now i am trying to reverse...

 

Also wanted to mention that sometimes the betrayed spouse feels ashamed of themselves for staying with a spouse who has cheated. This is in part due to the things other people will say to them upon learning of the situation. They say things like "if it were me I'd kick him to the curb so fast he wouldn't know what hit him" or "I wouldn't put up with that, I've got too much self respect" and other variations of that type of speech. This makes the betrayed spouse feel like they are being judged or insulted for staying. They don't want to say "I'm staying because I really love him" because that just invites jeers and sneers. Instead it's easier to say they are staying for the kids or for finances. Sort of similar to the bogus reasons the cheating spouse gives his OW for staying. They are both not being fully honest but for different reasons.

[LM85]

Thank you... my head sees this. my heart... does not seem capable of accepting this truth....

 

 

 

 

 

yes... it hurts....

 

 

 

 

 

if he does come to me, i would trust him to stay.... i think he won't be cheating if he had a loving wife... at least that's what even my friends are saying..... they all feel he is a good man who is stuck in a bad marriage....

 

I'm sorry but the only person I feel sorry for here is his poor wife. He's fed you all the lines in the book:

 

1. She doesn't have sex with me

2. She doesn't give me affection

3. She doesn't involve me in the decision making

4. I only want to stay because of the kid

 

His wife is busy looking after his child, which in itself is a full time job. She maybe even have a full time job on top of this, as well as looking after the house, cleaning, cooking washing, paying all the bills etc. She probably doesn't involve him in decision making (if this is even true because lets face it, you're getting all your info from a liar and a cheat and the messages he has chosen to show you) because he probably doesn't have a clue how to do the stuff she does (for example; my boyfriend wouldn't have any idea how to pay a utility bill)

 

She is busy looking after their child whilst he's is another room texting the woman he's having an affair with behind her back! She doesn't have time to baby him and tell him how much she loves and cares for him because she is doing everything else!

 

IMO, he is not a good man - how could you be if you're willing to lie and cheat on the woman who you took vows with and who is the mother of your children? A bad marriage? Because he told you it was bad? You have no idea what goes on in their marriage and life together.

 

You said you would trust him to stay with you and be faithful to you? What makes you so special? He can't even do this with the woman he loved enough to marry.

 

He's already made his intentions clear and told you he's never leaving her. He dropped you the second his wife found out. How could you possibly trust him? You of all people know exactly what he's capable of.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude but you really do need to wake up and see him for what he is.

[stillafool]

Sorry, I don't believe this.

 

Yeah me either nor that he doesn't love her.

[Overtaxed]

I'm sorry but the only person I feel sorry for here is his poor wife. He's fed you all the lines in the book:

 

No, your not. I feel very sorry for his wife, and for the AP here who believes the things you quoted. Those are lines that just about every AP in the history of A's uses (or some variation). I have a feeling you'll be SHOCKED to find out the truth; that he loves his W, is making plans with her, sleeps with her regularly, and has you in a tiny box labeled "fun times" that he takes out to play with sometimes. His wife is his life, the A is a distraction; instead of going to the bar with the guys after work, he spends it talking/sleeping with you, but it's a hobby; not his "real life".

 

I'm sure there's a WH out there who's said to his AP "yeah, I love my W, we have sex 2 times a day most of the time, and I'm really interested in you because I sometimes get horny when my wife isn't around and I might actually be able to get to 3X a day, but my W is sore from 2, so; how about it?"; but, let me say, this would be a very rare AP indeed. However, the SITUATION isn't rare, just a WH being honest like that with his AP is unheard of, not a male AP actually doing those things.

 

Look, I know men who have A's. The things that they do, and the things that they are really looking for in the A would shock you back to sanity so fast your head would spin. One of the more awful that I've heard; guy has sex with his W right before he sees the AP to "unload the gun" (so he can last longer with the AP) and then has sex with his wife right after the AP because he's so turned on by the sex with the AP. And this isn't a one off, I've heard this implied a few times, and, after my W's A (where the BS confirmed this behavior) I did a little searching, this is very common.

 

His wife is the victim here, you knowingly have entered in a relationship that has these characteristics, she didn't. If this isn't what you want, move on. If it is, then get used to the idea of the lies being the majority of the discussions between you and the AP; that's just the anatomy of a typical A; lies and sex.

[abandoned2018]

I have a feeling you'll be SHOCKED to find out the truth; that he loves his W, is making plans with her, sleeps with her regularly

 

 

 

 

no matter what he says, this thought does creep in to my mind... often...

[Prudence V]

no matter what he says, this thought does creep in to my mind... often...

 

Even if he isn’t loving her or making plans with her, unless he is making plans to be with you *and acting on them*, you’re still not going to get what you want from the relationship.

[pepperbird]

no matter what he says, this thought does creep in to my mind... often...

 

 

If you really want to know what is going on, ask his wife.

 

It might sound like I am joking, but I'm not. Ask her.

 

 

 

 

If your answer to that suggetsion is "no", then why not? If you answer to that includes:

 

 

- I don't want to hurt her ( honey, you've already helped to hurt her more than you will ever know...it's the disease that hurts, not finding out about it)

 

 

- I don't want to hurt their kid(s) ( see above)

 

 

- I don't want to disrupt his life ( he's already done that)

 

 

- It's not my place to interfere in their marriage ( again, you've already done this..that ship has sailed)

 

 

- I'm to scared of what I might find out ( Understandable, but if you are that scared, what does that tell you about him? If you were sure of his love/ feelings for you, that fear wouldn't be there)

 

 

The truth of the matter is that you will never know for sure what their marriage/ home life is like unless you get the full story, and you simply can't do that without hearing all sides, including hers. Who knows? Could be you talk to her and it turns out this guy was being honest. A more likley scenario is that you will find out some pretty ugly truths.

[Prudence V]

If you really want to know what is going on, ask his wife.

 

It might sound like I am joking, but I'm not. Ask her.

 

 

 

 

If your answer to that suggetsion is "no", then why not? If you answer to that includes:

 

 

- I don't want to hurt her ( honey, you've already helped to hurt her more than you will ever know...it's the disease that hurts, not finding out about it)

 

 

- I don't want to hurt their kid(s) ( see above)

 

 

- I don't want to disrupt his life ( he's already done that)

 

 

- It's not my place to interfere in their marriage ( again, you've already done this..that ship has sailed)

 

 

- I'm to scared of what I might find out ( Understandable, but if you are that scared, what does that tell you about him? If you were sure of his love/ feelings for you, that fear wouldn't be there)

 

 

The truth of the matter is that you will never know for sure what their marriage/ home life is like unless you get the full story, and you simply can't do that without hearing all sides, including hers. Who knows? Could be you talk to her and it turns out this guy was being honest. A more likley scenario is that you will find out some pretty ugly truths.

 

I don’t know of any BW that would say to the OW, “yes, it’s true, I’m only with him for the kids / his money / the lifestyle, you go ahead and have him” even if it is true. More likely she will be dog in a manger and decide that even if she doesn’t want him (beyond his money / presence in the house to fix things / reputation/ etc) you’re not getting him either.

[pepperbird]

I don’t know of any BW that would say to the OW, “yes, it’s true, I’m only with him for the kids / his money / the lifestyle, you go ahead and have him” even if it is true. More likely she will be dog in a manger and decide that even if she doesn’t want him (beyond his money / presence in the house to fix things / reputation/ etc) you’re not getting him either.

 

 

This actually doesn't tend to be borne out, at least according to the input from bs in the infidelity section on here, as well as other online sources. In many cases, the bs is being told a very different story than what the ap is being told. They have been led to believe the ws still loves and cares for them, which is quite often the exact opposite of what the mm is telling the ow. I understand how that can be a painful reality, but it is what it is.

 

 

 

Sure, there may be a bit of a shock, when the bs finds out, but the "dog in the manger" label is not apt- at least in many cases. An awful lot of bs are more than willing to send their ws packing, should news like this arrive on their doorstep.

 

 

 

Of course, what the ap don't hear about is how the ws will oftne beg and plead for forgiveness. That doesn't feed into the mm's version of reality. After all,how many ow would stick around if they knew that the mm was, often literally, on his knees begging forgiveness from his wife?

[abandoned2018]

This actually doesn't tend to be borne out, at least according to the input from bs in the infidelity section on here, as well as other online sources. In many cases, the bs is being told a very different story than what the ap is being told. They have been led to believe the ws still loves and cares for them, which is quite often the exact opposite of what the mm is telling the ow. I understand how that can be a painful reality, but it is what it is.

 

 

 

Sure, there may be a bit of a shock, when the bs finds out, but the "dog in the manger" label is not apt- at least in many cases. An awful lot of bs are more than willing to send their ws packing, should news like this arrive on their doorstep.

 

 

 

Of course, what the ap don't hear about is how the ws will oftne beg and plead for forgiveness. That doesn't feed into the mm's version of reality. After all,how many ow would stick around if they knew that the mm was, often literally, on his knees begging forgiveness from his wife?

 

 

 

 

yes, i too think that when they get caught, they tend to throw the AP under the bus and beg forgiveness from the wife.i guess a MM's feelings are complicated. if he was in love with the wife, he wouldn't cheat (?) and yet, when they get caught they act like the affair partner means "nothing" to them.... baffling...