Why can't people be liked for who they are

[ZA Dater]

Yes, I accept that in cases where people are really not nice people they might not be universally liked but if we for a moment accept that most people are decent people.

 

 

So much of the advice given here is in no particular order.

 

 

1: Dating coach

2: Makeover

3: Therapist

4: Work on yourself

 

 

Perhaps I am over thinking but why is any of that important, none it changes who you are and none of it changes your fundamental personality.

 

 

As someone who has spent time working on himself with no discernible difference in outcome I have begun to wonder "what for" in the broadest sense.

 

 

I don't think a true match is tailoring yourself to the whims of someone else but rather being yourself and hoping someone likes you for you. To me a lot of the above list intentionally tries to create a person who you are not in the hope that person is more marketable, much like wearing a bright green t shirt would make one stand out.

 

 

In other words its superficial and not fundamental in nature. The more I go out the more I am left with the feeling, all this does it make you even less marketable if you accept everyone wants something different if you accept everyone is similar then you simply acknowledge crowd mentality is an important dating criteria.

 

 

The amount of selling out I see among people I know is staggering, people who change their entire life to try and woo people, is this really what one must do? Living something false in the hope someone will like that?

 

 

I guess I am just overthinking everything.....as usual.

[losangelena]

I totally understand your frustration. In an ideal world, people would be liked for themselves, but unfortunately, there is such a thing as sexual market value, and people play that game all the time. Because people don't just date others for the sake of the relationship, or for who the other person is—that's often not always the case. There is status involved in who you date/marry/start a family with. For straight men, that often means finding a woman who is a "trophy," right? Someone with a "good body" who is conventionally attractive, feminine, wears dresses and gets her hair and nails done. She's a woman other men admire/covet/etc. For straight women, that's a tall man with a good career or lots of money.

 

Obviously, these are stereotypes to a degree, but it holds true for a lot of people, so they oftentimes think they need to attain the desired state of their gender/sexual orientation to attract the "best" mate. That's why so many women fret about their weight and mencwant to advance their careers. Again, I'm using very broad stereotypes. A large swath of people fall outside these norms, or will never attain high sexual value—for them, dating and mating is intrinsically more challenging.

 

It can be done, through. It's a bit of a matrix situation, right? You can step off the self-improvement bandwagon. I was a yo-yo dieter for years until I regained a bunch of weight a couple of years ago. Eventually I thought, "enough, I'm tired of this," and got off the hamster wheel. My body is larger now than it's been in a long time, but I am generally happier with myself and feel more relaxed. I've found that I have no trouble attracting sexual attention from men, but finding a relationship has been harder (again, according to 21st century western social norms, I have low market value), but overalll I don't really care as much, because at this point in my life, I would rather be single than be with someone hung up with having a status symbol. I'll wait for the person who does like me for me, knowing full well that could take a while.

[carhill]

1. Accept and love yourself for the gift of life and who you are. No one can take that away from you, though many may try to benefit themselves, and it will be with you for life.

 

2. Cease supplicating at the altar of others. You are who you are, like who you are and if others don't, well good on them. Their absence is no relevant loss to your life nor reason for changing who you are.

 

3. Look in the mirror with an eye for personal growth. That doesn't mean criticize yourself, negative stuff, but rather take joy in finding new horizons, new things to try to broaden your love of and esteem in self.

 

Question: Instinctively, do you find yourself to be a BOTD person or a critical person when meeting and interacting with others? Do you tend to like people as they are as a default, or not? What's your style? Why?

[alphamale]

I guess I am just overthinking everything.....as usual.

 

it's good to exercise the mind ZA Dater

[Els]

I don't think a true match is tailoring yourself to the whims of someone else but rather being yourself and hoping someone likes you for you.

Sure, I agree with this. But most of the advice you mention is given to people who are complaining constantly about "nobody liking them". Now, you can't really have your cake and eat it too - it is absolutely within your rights and probably commendable to stand firm in who you are... but if nobody wants to be in a relationship with you, that's THEIR prerogative to decide.

 

There is always a certain amount of superficiality involved in choosing a mate for most people, unfortunately. The 90-yo granny or the 300-lbs butch woman with a mohawk could be the nicest, most lovely person in the world, but the vast majority of men are unlikely to want to date her.

[normal person]

The amount of selling out I see among people I know is staggering, people who change their entire life to try and woo people,

 

What would you say to an overweight person who wanted to be healthy? Would you accuse them of "changing their entire life" by going to the gym and eating healthily to get what they want?

 

You talk as if people making changes to get the things they want in their lives is an inherently bad thing, like people are just locked into a specific set of traits and decisions for a lifetime and can never learn to adapt or better themselves without criticism. If someone wants a partner but realizes they might need a new haircut to meet a generally accepted societal standard, are they really "selling out?" What if one of the women you go out with really wanted to see you again despite you thinking she was too uninformed, so she starting reading about current events, paying attention to politics, forming her own opinions, etc? How would you feel then? Everyone has to make decisions and compromises to get the things they want in life. If you don't have to, good for you. But you won't have much luck looking down on everyone else for doing what's necessary to get what they want. I think your history has indicated that pretty clearly.

 

These people you deride are smart enough to realize the world won't adapt to them and strong enough to then adapt to the world enough to find their happiness. Here you are at 34 years old, still wondering why everyone has to be so fake, still waiting to do things on your own terms without compromise, refusing to admit that even if you're "right" to an extent, you're still losing the game by not accepting the circumstances that everyone else has simply relented to. You're right! Everyone else is fake! How good does it feel to be the lone hold out? Considering this is probably the 100th thread of yours trying to solve your problems, I'm going to guess "not very."

 

is this really what one must do? Living something false in the hope someone will like that?

 

Maybe some people enjoy having a partner or changing/working to achieve something they want much more than the alternative "truth" of being stuck in an unchanging set of circumstances or traits that they must always adhere to in order to avoid your scorn.

 

Maybe their "truth" is doing what's necessary to find happiness on their own terms.

 

And no, not everyone "must" do this, most people are well attuned to the standards of society and just happen to find love organically without all this dissection and examination of whether or not the other person is a sell out.

 

Congratulations, you're the one person who never compromised anything. You, with your integrity perfectly intact, are alone at the top of the mountain looking down and laughing at all the happy, sexualized, plebeians for doing what they thought necessary to fulfill the natural urge to reproduce.

 

How about this, if you think it's some kind of cardinal sin to compromise anything about yourself in pursuit of something you want, feel free not to do it and bask in all the "truth" that affords you. And if that's what you do, why don't you just let everyone else go about things their own way if it has no bearing on your life, instead of constantly harping on about:

 

1). How fake everyone else is

2). Your aversion to compromising your "truth" in your pursuit

3). How nonexistent your love life is

4). How unhappy you are

 

If there are things you don't want to do, fine. Don't do them and stop complaining about how unhappy it makes you, because that's been the result thus far and will continue to be. You can make your own choices and live with the consequences. I don't see why you can't also let others make their own and live with their consequences. Here's a tip, the optics of a miserable 34 year old calling people sell outs for trying to better their lives and be happy aren't good at all. Self imposing your own exile to the top of that mountain is bad enough, judging everyone else down below isn't going to help.

 

Lonely at the top, isn't it? Here are your options:

 

A). Accept that you may have to change or compromise things about yourself to find a partner and be happy

B). Continue on with your "truth" and misery, stop complaining about how fake society is because it won't change anything, and you've made your choice.

 

Which is it going to be?

[preraph]

None of us would be telling people to work on themselves if they weren't on here being miserable and lonely because they can't date successfully. Otherwise, it's just "Maybe the right person will come along," but that's assuming the person ever gets out in public, which I've stopped taking for granted.

 

Truth is, the more mainstream a person is, they more potential matches they will have. The more specialized or off the grid a person is, the fewer people will think they are suitable. I am one of the latter. I only match within my niche, a music subculture, but did very well there socially. Otherwise, I am a square peg in a round hole because I am unconventional and don't have much in common with mainstream folks. I don't like sports. In Texas, that eliminates easily 99 percent of people for me.

 

And where it's really hard to help on Loveshack is the people who have no problem getting a date, but can't get a second one. Because we can't see what that person is doing wrong, but it would be obvious if we were a fly on the wall on that first date.

 

Maybe they are too snide. Maybe they are always saying nasty things followed by "Only joking." Maybe they sexualize everything relentlessly, thinking that's sexy, when most women would be really put off by it. Maybe they smell bad or look like they've never had a proper haircut or been to the dentist and just look scraggly. Maybe they need to hem their jeans up 3 inches. Maybe they showed up with liquor on their breath or reeking of pot or wired.

 

Maybe they assume everyone agrees with their own opinions, which is a weird phenomenon that happens a lot. We tend to think if we LIKE a person, that means they agree with us. Yet, we have no idea of their opinions yet. So we spout what we think and maybe offend them or put them in an awkward position of having to say "I don't agree with that" on the first date.

 

Maybe they have it in their head you're a nice submissive girl and start spouting how they hate feminists, which is really about the same as saying you hate women because that word means different things to different people. To him, maybe it means someone who'll do all the housework. To her, maybe it means won't date a sexist clod.

 

Maybe the guy has very few interests, so the woman can't connect with him on anything. Maybe the woman is well read, and the man has no interest in reading at all. Maybe he says what he likes to do is play videogames or watch sports and the woman isn't into that at all and wouldn't want to get involved with someone who did it a lot.

 

Maybe the person is just combative and argumentative and not pleasant to talk to. Maybe the person interrupts all the time, or is looking on their phone all the time.

 

Maybe the person is straight up needing psychiatric care, or maybe they seem to have no ethics.

 

Everyone has things they need to work on. It's hard for people at Loveshack to get specific and tell the what they're doing wrong. Sometimes if they keep talking, we may figure it out -- like that they don't listen, or that they are trying to date out of their attraction range, which is very often the actual thing stopping them from finding someone. They want and feel entitled to better than they themselves are giving.

 

If they came here and asked for help, we try to give it. We start with the physical because it's the easiest to fix, clothes, hair, etc.

 

If you want someone to like you just like you are warts and all, it might be a long wait, or you might get lucky.

[HiCrunchy]

I think it depends on it we see ourselves as fixed beings or ever changing.

[HiCrunchy]

I think it depends on it we see ourselves as fixed beings or ever changing.

 

And the funny thing is we are a little bit of both!

Ever heard of fixed vs growth mindset?

[ZA Dater]

What would you say to an overweight person who wanted to be healthy? Would you accuse them of "changing their entire life" by going to the gym and eating healthily to get what they want?

 

You talk as if people making changes to get the things they want in their lives is an inherently bad thing, like people are just locked into a specific set of traits and decisions for a lifetime and can never learn to adapt or better themselves without criticism. If someone wants a partner but realizes they might need a new haircut to meet a generally accepted societal standard, are they really "selling out?" What if one of the women you go out with really wanted to see you again despite you thinking she was too uninformed, so she starting reading about current events, paying attention to politics, forming her own opinions, etc? How would you feel then? Everyone has to make decisions and compromises to get the things they want in life. If you don't have to, good for you. But you won't have much luck looking down on everyone else for doing what's necessary to get what they want. I think your history has indicated that pretty clearly.

 

These people you deride are smart enough to realize the world won't adapt to them and strong enough to then adapt to the world enough to find their happiness. Here you are at 34 years old, still wondering why everyone has to be so fake, still waiting to do things on your own terms without compromise, refusing to admit that even if you're "right" to an extent, you're still losing the game by not accepting the circumstances that everyone else has simply relented to. You're right! Everyone else is fake! How good does it feel to be the lone hold out? Considering this is probably the 100th thread of yours trying to solve your problems, I'm going to guess "not very."

 

 

 

Maybe some people enjoy having a partner or changing/working to achieve something they want much more than the alternative "truth" of being stuck in an unchanging set of circumstances or traits that they must always adhere to in order to avoid your scorn.

 

Maybe their "truth" is doing what's necessary to find happiness on their own terms.

 

And no, not everyone "must" do this, most people are well attuned to the standards of society and just happen to find love organically without all this dissection and examination of whether or not the other person is a sell out.

 

Congratulations, you're the one person who never compromised anything. You, with your integrity perfectly intact, are alone at the top of the mountain looking down and laughing at all the happy, sexualized, plebeians for doing what they thought necessary to fulfill the natural urge to reproduce.

 

How about this, if you think it's some kind of cardinal sin to compromise anything about yourself in pursuit of something you want, feel free not to do it and bask in all the "truth" that affords you. And if that's what you do, why don't you just let everyone else go about things their own way if it has no bearing on your life, instead of constantly harping on about:

 

1). How fake everyone else is

2). Your aversion to compromising your "truth" in your pursuit

3). How nonexistent your love life is

4). How unhappy you are

 

If there are things you don't want to do, fine. Don't do them and stop complaining about how unhappy it makes you, because that's been the result thus far and will continue to be. You can make your own choices and live with the consequences. I don't see why you can't also let others make their own and live with their consequences. Here's a tip, the optics of a miserable 34 year old calling people sell outs for trying to better their lives and be happy aren't good at all. Self imposing your own exile to the top of that mountain is bad enough, judging everyone else down below isn't going to help.

 

Lonely at the top, isn't it? Here are your options:

 

A). Accept that you may have to change or compromise things about yourself to find a partner and be happy

B). Continue on with your "truth" and misery, stop complaining about how fake society is because it won't change anything, and you've made your choice.

 

Which is it going to be?

 

 

 

I was merely passing on observations. To be honest I am quite happy at the top of the mountain looking down, I just find it nonsensical that people do things that don't make them happy in the hope those same thing allow them to meet someone who does make them happy, even though the entire foundation is false.

 

 

Its like going ballroom dancing and professing to love it and then when you find someone there, well you basically have to keep loving it because the entire meet up was formed on a lie. Sorry but I don't really see that as much of a way to live life on the basis of what amounts to little more than tacit deception from the off.

 

 

Sure, go to gym, eat healthy, NO problem but DO IT FOR YOU! Not because you might gain something from it, do it because you want to, I don't question people who change things but I do question those who do so not because they want to but because they feel obligated to. There is a fundamental difference.

 

 

By all means change, really even I have and do but I don't do those things because others tell me to, I do them because I want to and if something isn't to my liking I simply don't do it. I am not going to watch rugby because everyone else does, I detest the game so I am not going to go along pretending I like it because hey I might meet someone there.

 

 

The day I meet anyone who wants to see me again will be a rare day indeed, rarer still would be someone who actually wants to improve for me, in fact lets not say rare lets say about is likely as the sea changing from blue to purple.

 

 

My history is irrelevant to the discussion I am quite at peace with it ad the limitations it has afforded me, sure its not ideal but surprisingly I get some comfort sitting on the top of the mountain as you put it because the more I look around, the more I watch and learn the more I detest the entire dating game and most thing about it. I detest the way guys manipulate ladies, I detest the sometimes inherent insensitivity shown by ladies to guys, I detest the fact 99.9% of attraction is deemed to be superficial and most of all I detest the fact that people only see what they want to see rather than what actually is. Call me cold, call me analytical, call me whatever actually but I have seen so many examples of completely illogical decisions made in relationships, people taking very abnormal things as being normal.

 

 

You forgot option C

 

 

Whereby perhaps people start to actually think and question things as opposed to simply doing what everyone else does because everyone else is doing it.

 

 

Sure, compromise but for the right reasons, presenting a completely false face to world isn't a compromise, its pure deception nothing more and nothing less and if that's ok and part and parcel of dating then perhaps its no surprise I haven't had any success because if someone give me an orange I call it out as that, not as a lemon. Compromise to better yourself great.

 

 

At least you have the good grace to admit I might be partly right and the irony is I look down, all I see are mostly people complaining about relationships, rarely am I regaled with tales of utopia and bliss so yes its tough at the top but perhaps not as tough as you might think.

 

 

Its good to know people find things organically, cant say I have met many who have without spinning elaborate half truths or embellished certain aspects. Then again my honest approach isn't exactly a hit either so perhaps my point remains true, to succeed you not only need to believe nonsense you need to preach it too, then again who am I fooling, every time I have been out I have seen examples of this pandering which seems to net such fantastic results. Not sure what is worse the nonsense being peddled or the people who buy into it without questioning any of it at all.

[ZA Dater]

None of us would be telling people to work on themselves if they weren't on here being miserable and lonely because they can't date successfully. Otherwise, it's just "Maybe the right person will come along," but that's assuming the person ever gets out in public, which I've stopped taking for granted.

 

Truth is, the more mainstream a person is, they more potential matches they will have. The more specialized or off the grid a person is, the fewer people will think they are suitable. I am one of the latter. I only match within my niche, a music subculture, but did very well there socially. Otherwise, I am a square peg in a round hole because I am unconventional and don't have much in common with mainstream folks. I don't like sports. In Texas, that eliminates easily 99 percent of people for me.

 

And where it's really hard to help on Loveshack is the people who have no problem getting a date, but can't get a second one. Because we can't see what that person is doing wrong, but it would be obvious if we were a fly on the wall on that first date.

 

Maybe they are too snide. Maybe they are always saying nasty things followed by "Only joking." Maybe they sexualize everything relentlessly, thinking that's sexy, when most women would be really put off by it. Maybe they smell bad or look like they've never had a proper haircut or been to the dentist and just look scraggly. Maybe they need to hem their jeans up 3 inches. Maybe they showed up with liquor on their breath or reeking of pot or wired.

 

Maybe they assume everyone agrees with their own opinions, which is a weird phenomenon that happens a lot. We tend to think if we LIKE a person, that means they agree with us. Yet, we have no idea of their opinions yet. So we spout what we think and maybe offend them or put them in an awkward position of having to say "I don't agree with that" on the first date.

 

Maybe they have it in their head you're a nice submissive girl and start spouting how they hate feminists, which is really about the same as saying you hate women because that word means different things to different people. To him, maybe it means someone who'll do all the housework. To her, maybe it means won't date a sexist clod.

 

Maybe the guy has very few interests, so the woman can't connect with him on anything. Maybe the woman is well read, and the man has no interest in reading at all. Maybe he says what he likes to do is play videogames or watch sports and the woman isn't into that at all and wouldn't want to get involved with someone who did it a lot.

 

Maybe the person is just combative and argumentative and not pleasant to talk to. Maybe the person interrupts all the time, or is looking on their phone all the time.

 

Maybe the person is straight up needing psychiatric care, or maybe they seem to have no ethics.

 

Everyone has things they need to work on. It's hard for people at Loveshack to get specific and tell the what they're doing wrong. Sometimes if they keep talking, we may figure it out -- like that they don't listen, or that they are trying to date out of their attraction range, which is very often the actual thing stopping them from finding someone. They want and feel entitled to better than they themselves are giving.

 

If they came here and asked for help, we try to give it. We start with the physical because it's the easiest to fix, clothes, hair, etc.

 

If you want someone to like you just like you are warts and all, it might be a long wait, or you might get lucky.

 

 

 

All is which is 100% true but my point remains, better yourself for you not because you hope by doing so you might attract someone.

 

 

I used to feel very bitter about dating but actually now I simply don't care too much, I have accepted every date will be bad and use them now as a simple means of passing time, in the sense I'll browse a site, have a look at Tinder but I pretty much know there isn't going to be anything positive to come from it.

 

 

I go out and all I see is the same old, the same old macho stereotypical nonsense often backed with very little substance or its the flash the cash method and then its the spin a load of nonsense method, all of these combined with charm are effective to lesser or greater degrees in the mainstream.

 

 

People should be who they want to be, not what they are prescribed to be in order to be attractive to others. I have sat down with models and found them wholly unattractive because of personality, likewise I have sat down with average looking people who are very attractive because of personality. You can work on things to be attractive but where do you draw the line? Where do you say I am now over compromising?

 

 

I don't believe much about dating and meeting people is based on fundamental honesty because I am that (with tact) but its never gotten me anywhere, whereas the spin nonsense method has worked fantastically for people I know. Sure, I'd love a great GF but I am not selling out my integrity to get one.

[gone_girl]

On one hand we get so much information and advice about how to be women, how to be men, how to date step by step guides and manipulations, how to dress, how to undress, what to say, how to prepare for living life someday, how all will be good if you own this and that, how no one will love you if you don't love yourself (...) and how you have to wait and be a certain way to start loving and being loved (maybe after 50 years).

 

Instead of hyperanalysing it's better to use own gut instinct and not be afraid to make some decisions on how to live life (and then not to be afraid to change mind - do so with an air of ultimate authority, people evolve).

[ZA Dater]

On one hand we get so much information and advice about how to be women, how to be men, how to date step by step guides and manipulations, how to dress, how to undress, what to say, how to prepare for living life someday, how all will be good if you own this and that, how no one will love you if you don't love yourself (...) and how you have to wait and be a certain way to start loving and being loved (maybe after 50 years).

 

Instead of hyperanalysing it's better to use own gut instinct and not be afraid to make some decisions on how to live life (and then not to be afraid to change mind - do so with an air of ultimate authority, people evolve).

 

 

 

That's basically my point, we apparently need to take some much time taking in what we should apparently be rather than actually being. In reality I am debating an argument I cannot ever hope to win, clearly I am the odd one out here to question such fundamentals.

 

 

This fundamental difference and the fact I never really seem to find people at the same stage in life as I am perhaps is why I have landed up at 34 with no relationships.

 

 

Ultimately we should all decide for ourselves not have society decide for us, well in perfect world this would be true but the more I look around the more I see "normal persons" world.

 

 

I suppose its all about what you want.

[amaysngrace]

Don't settle for something that's unfulfilling just to appear normal. Anyone who tries to make you fit into their mold or who judges you for resisting said mold isn't worth your time.

 

I think you already know that though.

[normal person]

I was merely passing on observations. To be honest I am quite happy at the top of the mountain looking down,

 

Who are you trying to convince? Me, or you?

 

I just find it nonsensical that people do things that don't make them happy in the hope those same thing allow them to meet someone who does make them happy, even though the entire foundation is false.

 

And those people might not think it's as nonsensical as you do. In fact, maybe they think it's very sensible. So what does it matter to you? People go to their jobs even though they don't like them because they prefer it to the alternative of being broke and financially unstable. Some people want to avoid the misery of being alone so they suffer the temporary unpleasantness of something necessary to find a partner. So what? If you don't want to do those things, don't. Enjoy your integrity. I don't see why it's such a problem for you if someone else wants to make different choices.

 

Its like going ballroom dancing and professing to love it and then when you find someone there, well you basically have to keep loving it because the entire meet up was formed on a lie.

 

Oh no, the horror. Absolutely indefensible.

 

Sorry but I don't really see that as much of a way to live life on the basis of what amounts to little more than tacit deception from the off.

 

That's totally fine. Everyone else will live. I highly doubt people who met the love of their lives by broadening their horizons to suffer the slightest discomfort will suddenly get divorced because ZA Dater disapproves.

 

Sure, go to gym, eat healthy, NO problem but DO IT FOR YOU! Not because you might gain something from it, do it because you want to, I don't question people who change things but I do question those who do so not because they want to but because they feel obligated to. There is a fundamental difference.

 

What if they feel obligated to do it for themselves and their happiness?

 

I do them because I want to and if something isn't to my liking I simply don't do it.

 

That's perfectly fine.

 

I am not going to watch rugby because everyone else does, I detest the game so I am not going to go along pretending I like it because hey I might meet someone there.

 

I know. You've made that very clear. Someone else whose personal code isn't so spectacularly stringent might, though. Is it really the end of the world? Sometimes I've opted out of things I haven't wanted to do. I also often compromise and do things I don't want to do because friends and family want me to even if they know I'm not interested because they want me there. So I go and do those things and just accept that that's part of an interpersonal relationship. You're acting like going to the bar or watching a sport you don't like is going to kill you. Most people can just suck it up. No one accuses them of "being fake," other than you, of course.

 

Doing things you don't want to do with others is a necessary part of the process of forming, building, and maintaining relationships with other people on many levels. Considering you refuse to do these things, is it any surprise your romantic relationships are basically non-existent?

 

My history is irrelevant to the discussion I am quite at peace with it ad the limitations it has afforded me,

 

No you're not. You've started an encyclopedia worth of threads over several years trying to solve your problems. It's a joke at this point. People at peace aren't endlessly looking for answers and looking down on others as you do.

 

Call me cold, call me analytical, call me whatever actually but I have seen so many examples of completely illogical decisions made in relationships, people taking very abnormal things as being normal.

 

Yeah, attraction and relationships are irrational. The difference between you and everyone else is that we just accept and deal with this fact, you use it to justify inaction and fruitlessly complain about things that will never, ever, change.

 

 

You forgot option C

 

 

Whereby perhaps people start to actually think and question things as opposed to simply doing what everyone else does because everyone else is doing it.

 

Good luck getting humans to subvert their innate biological drives and habits formed and crafted over thousands of years. What's your plan here? Convince the world to change through a message board? How's it been going so far?

 

At least you have the good grace to admit I might be partly right and the irony is I look down, all I see are mostly people complaining about relationships, rarely am I regaled with tales of utopia and bliss so yes its tough at the top but perhaps not as tough as you might think.

 

While I agree that not every tale is one of sunshine and rainbows, most people learn from their bad experiences, and if people were more happy not to accept the possibility of heartache with the pursuit of love, they wouldn't. People are much happier pursuing relationships than the alternative. If everyone thought like you, humanity would be extinct.

 

Its good to know people find things organically, cant say I have met many who have without spinning elaborate half truths or embellished certain aspects.

 

I don't know any couple who've gotten together on the basis of elaborate half truths or embellishments.

 

Then again my honest approach isn't exactly a hit either so perhaps my point remains true, to succeed you not only need to believe nonsense you need to preach it too, then again who am I fooling, every time I have been out I have seen examples of this pandering which seems to net such fantastic results. Not sure what is worse the nonsense being peddled or the people who buy into it without questioning any of it at all.

 

The picture you paint is dramatically different than the real world. This "believing nonsense" is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. Maybe if you weren't so bitter and judgmental about other people trying to find their own happiness in the best, most pragmatic ways they can, you might see that some of the lesser aspects are just necessary parts of the process that everyone has to deal with at one point or another. Everyone else realizes that they need to break some eggs to make an omelette. Here you are complaining about how horrible that is, how your vegan, egg-free omelette is so much more dignified and that you refuse to even eat in the same restaurant as those other heathen omelette-makers. Just get over it, already. You're going to be on your deathbed thinking back to the time when everyone else was finding love, you spent your prime years complaining that the world didn't conform exactly to the standard you wanted it to, and your complaints never made the slightest difference. You're wasting your life complaining about these things.

[ZA Dater]

Who are you trying to convince? Me, or you?

 

 

 

And those people might not think it's as nonsensical as you do. In fact, maybe they think it's very sensible. So what does it matter to you? People go to their jobs even though they don't like them because they prefer it to the alternative of being broke and financially unstable. Some people want to avoid the misery of being alone so they suffer the temporary unpleasantness of something necessary to find a partner. So what? If you don't want to do those things, don't. Enjoy your integrity. I don't see why it's such a problem for you if someone else wants to make different choices. Not sure why anyone would do a job they wholly dislike, temporary unpleasantness you say, it seems pretty permanent to me to when chasing dates. All I am saying is people perhaps need to think about it more.

 

 

 

Oh no, the horror. Absolutely indefensible.

 

 

 

That's totally fine. Everyone else will live. I highly doubt people who met the love of their lives by broadening their horizons to suffer the slightest discomfort will suddenly get divorced because ZA Dater disapproves. And yet the divorce rate keeps climbing world wide.

 

 

 

What if they feel obligated to do it for themselves and their happiness.

Sure if selling out completely makes them truly happy but how people will admit chasing dates makes them happy, my guess is very few.

 

 

 

That's perfectly fine.

 

 

 

I know. You've made that very clear. Someone else whose personal code isn't so spectacularly stringent might, though. Is it really the end of the world? Sometimes I've opted out of things I haven't wanted to do. I also often compromise and do things I don't want to do because friends and family want me to even if they know I'm not interested because they want me there. So I go and do those things and just accept that that's part of an interpersonal relationship. You're acting like going to the bar or watching a sport you don't like is going to kill you. Most people can just suck it up. No one accuses them of "being fake," other than you, of course. You go to the extreme here and you fully know what I am talking about, people who create completely false persona's in order to try and attract people. People who pretend and continuously do things they don't like in order to fit in with others, why do that really. That's being purely fake.

 

Doing things you don't want to do with others is a necessary part of the process of forming, building, and maintaining relationships with other people on many levels. Considering you refuse to do these things, is it any surprise your romantic relationships are basically non-existent?

Not really or it could be I am incredibly fussy and really hard to impress. Oddly I have yet to find anyone who was ever prepared to compromise for me, yet I must compromise for them, sure if they actually brought something "wow" to the table that might be ok.

 

 

 

No you're not. You've started an encyclopedia worth of threads over several years trying to solve your problems. It's a joke at this point. People at peace aren't endlessly looking for answers and looking down on others as you do. Actually I am and you might know its because I took some of your advice and went out to places I don't like and tried to do things I don't like doing, like attempting to chat to random people. Doing that just made everything much more clear cut and removed for me any grey area that might have existed. All those experiences were ultimately awful but insightful at the same time because I got a perfect insight as to how superficial this dating world is, how for the most part it totally lacks any sort of substance, its about what you can give rather than who you are. People can do as they please but perhaps those who are perpetually unhappy would feel better if they broke the entire process down to what it actually is.

 

 

 

Yeah, attraction and relationships are irrational. The difference between you and everyone else is that we just accept and deal with this fact, you use it to justify inaction and fruitlessly complain about things that will never, ever, change.

Perhaps

 

 

 

 

Good luck getting humans to subvert their innate biological drives and habits formed and crafted over thousands of years. What's your plan here? Convince the world to change through a message board? How's it been going so far?

Actually there is something else in the offing I am working on, perhaps an alternative to all these fantastic dating books.

 

 

 

While I agree that not every tale is one of sunshine and rainbows, most people learn from their bad experiences, and if people were more happy not to accept the possibility of heartache with the pursuit of love, they wouldn't. People are much happier pursuing relationships than the alternative. If everyone thought like you, humanity would be extinct.

 

 

 

I don't know any couple who've gotten together on the basis of elaborate half truths or embellishments.

Go out to a NYC bar and I assure you, there will be some guy pretending to be something he isn't to impress some lady who wants to take home for the night.

 

 

 

The picture you paint is dramatically different than the real world. This "believing nonsense" is nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. Maybe if you weren't so bitter and judgmental about other people trying to find their own happiness in the best, most pragmatic ways they can, you might see that some of the lesser aspects are just necessary parts of the process that everyone has to deal with at one point or another. Everyone else realizes that they need to break some eggs to make an omelette. Here you are complaining about how horrible that is, how your vegan, egg-free omelette is so much more dignified and that you refuse to even eat in the same restaurant as those other heathen omelette-makers. Just get over it, already. You're going to be on your deathbed thinking back to the time when everyone else was finding love, you spent your prime years complaining that the world didn't conform exactly to the standard you wanted it to, and your complaints never made the slightest difference. You're wasting your life complaining about these things.

 

 

I can live with that, my prime years are gone (I reckon 25-30 were those years) all I have the choice of now are single moms, divorced ladies with years of baggage, divorced single moms, people who have been on OLD for a decade or more and lastly people who themselves cannot find anyone. None of those choices appeals so yes I'll sit on my mountain and judge dating for what I believe it to be, nothing more than a sham, a sham of false promises, false personalities, over compromising ALL in the hope as you put it you don't die alone but really how many people actually land up with someone they really want? I'd suggest very few do. The cost of that, all these "compromises" as you put it and a process which some find fun but equally many don't.

 

 

At least I don't need to tolerate sitting on dates trying to extract water from a stone or having not the slightest level of interest show in me but I need to bend over backward to "compromise", no thanks, compromise is a two way street, yet I have never seen ladies compromises ever.

 

 

Ultimately dating and shopping amount to the same thing, he with the biggest wallet will always win, she with the best looks will win. Desirable items sell first and well those us who perhaps don't possess the superficial qualities required, for us we need to compromise or bend over backward, sometimes forwards to try and get that modicum of potential attention.

 

 

The fact more people don't question this process or think about is disappointing, yes nothing I can do or say will ever change this but in some respects now that I now conclusively how it works and that it will always work like this I don't feel so bad sitting alone on the top of the mountain. Its just sad really that the idea I had of this isn't closer to reality where being a good person counted for something but seeing as I cant change that either.

 

 

Bitter you say, not actually. Sure, I resent the fact I haven't had the success others have had but then I look how many sold themselves out to get that success, the return frankly doesn't make that worth it in my eyes. I look how desperate some people become to the point they sell out on things they believe in, pretend someone is fantastic when objectively they aren't but its better to be with someone you pretend to like then be alone and thus be an outcast.

 

 

Every person I have liked has never been single. When I looked at the dynamics of those relationships it became ever more clear what a lot of nonsense most of them were, ladies capitulating to the whims of guys, guys showing no interest in their gf's. I was always around like that broom to fix the mess/provide moral support/provide the support/attention these ladies were not getting (I got some intellectual attention which I like) and that's about as close I ever got to a relationship with anyone. You know how many times I have heard "I like his personality, I like his smile" not once, instead its always something material and superficial, people will put up with endless amount of rubbish for status and material things. Guys, its never about personality "she has a great body, she is really great at ....". Which is my point, at what point do you like someone for who they are and how can you like them for that if they are being someone else to try and attract you in the first place?

 

 

I have been out with people I didn't find physically appealing, why because you cannot judge someone purely on that. I have a friend she says she is "frumpy" which isn't true and she has a personality which makes her attractive. You say I am judging, no I am not judging anyone I am judging a process to which people choose to adapt (you always say that).

 

 

Do I wish I had done things differently, sure don't we all, do I regret much of it, not really with one exception. I cant really change any of that anyway and its not like I have fun and marketable written on my forehead. I'll always be that weird awkward guy but so what, will I feel sad when I have nobody, probably but at least I will know I tried on my own terms to get that somebody I wanted.

Edited June 1, 2018 by ZA Dater

[preraph]

All is which is 100% true but my point remains, better yourself for you not because you hope by doing so you might attract someone.

 

 

I used to feel very bitter about dating but actually now I simply don't care too much, I have accepted every date will be bad and use them now as a simple means of passing time, in the sense I'll browse a site, have a look at Tinder but I pretty much know there isn't going to be anything positive to come from it.

 

 

I go out and all I see is the same old, the same old macho stereotypical nonsense often backed with very little substance or its the flash the cash method and then its the spin a load of nonsense method, all of these combined with charm are effective to lesser or greater degrees in the mainstream.

 

 

People should be who they want to be, not what they are prescribed to be in order to be attractive to others. I have sat down with models and found them wholly unattractive because of personality, likewise I have sat down with average looking people who are very attractive because of personality. You can work on things to be attractive but where do you draw the line? Where do you say I am now over compromising?

 

 

I don't believe much about dating and meeting people is based on fundamental honesty because I am that (with tact) but its never gotten me anywhere, whereas the spin nonsense method has worked fantastically for people I know. Sure, I'd love a great GF but I am not selling out my integrity to get one.

 

It's just important that you don't dig in and think of yourself as someone who will never change, because as life comes at you, each experience in some way changes who you are. Not saying try to mold yourself to one specific person, but saying work on being your best self, work on moving forward toward your goals, even if your goal is to live in a cabin on a mountain. Process literature and art and news and pop culture and keep finding new things to be interested in. People do change and grow. Just don't dig in and stubbornly refuse to get out of a rut you may be in.

 

When I was a hippie, we had certain ethics, and our appearance came to reflect being basic, down to earth, nothing fancy, basically. When that era was over for me, I was pulled in a different direction and it was a hard change for me. I felt I was abandoning my credo, I guess you'd say, but I had to move forward. I know people who stubbornly stayed just like they were and wouldn't budge, but that wasn't form me. I branched out and changed my style and progressed further into music (I'd never fit neatly into the hippie music style and liked something more lively, to say the least). I believed in who I had become, but I also believe in growing and exploring and that's what I did. i recreated myself every few years, really. Change is good. That's all I'm saying. If something isn't working for you, do something else.

[Veronica73]

You think you’re being rational, but you’re not. I agree with the above. Get some help. Maybe a congnitive behavioral therapist.

 

I’m not saying “sell out” or “be fake”, but if you think that’s what the majority of people who are in romantic relationships are doing... you really don’t know what you are talking about and you have a really skewed perception of things. I mean, I’m not saying dating is the easiest thing by any means...and it’s harder for some people than others...but you are being incredibly arrogant or... rigid?... or something. Whatever it is, it kind of seems like it isn’t serving you well.

 

Like the previous poster... why can’t you like women who are single mothers or who have been divorced or who have baggage? Why can’t you like THEM for who they are? Nobody is perfect. (And I’m not saying there is anything wrong with not wanting to date someone with baggage or an ex-husband or children, but it seems like you have some rigid standards that prohibit you from liking them for being them...so it seems you could understand.)

[Woggle]

You can be. Just be you and don't apologize. That is what I do and it has worked out lovely for me. There is a point in my life when I had nothing to lose and I approached life from that stance and the ironic thing is that was when things started to fall into place.

[Teknoe]

Not everyone will like everyone in this world. That is a universal fact.

 

The key is to surround yourself by people who appreciate you for you, quirks, flaws and all.

 

Those who are judgmental or overly harsh can see the door. Life is too short for that BS.

[Woggle]

Unless you are a spineless jellyfish you always lets yourself get pushed around some people will not like you. That is a fact of life. Unless they have the ability to affect your life stop caring.

[thefooloftheyear]

I'd rather be respected than liked....Who gives a crap what other people think? I live my life by my own set of ways....I'll never be the life of the party and never want to be...

 

Today's social media driven world breeds this feeling that people need to be universally liked..Eff that...I already have more people in my life than I even want at this point....Go away!...

 

TFY

[Woggle]

I'd rather be respected than liked....Who gives a crap what other people think? I live my life by my own set of ways....I'll never be the life of the party and never want to be...

 

Today's social media driven world breeds this feeling that people need to be universally liked..Eff that...I already have more people in my life than I even want at this point....Go away!...

 

TFY

 

I couldn't agree more. When you are respected everything else tends to fall nto place.

[ZA Dater]

"Why can't people be liked for who they are?" You should know the answer to that as well as anyone else here. Why don't you like all of those ladies you mention here? Why not like them for who they are?

 

 

 

I admit I am a pretty arrogant guy. What you just said here is beyond arrogant and condescending. I'm sorry, but you are not sitting on a mountain judging others. You are no better than anyone else.

 

I'm no professional by any means, but I think you have something wrong with you. I don't think you are going to get what you need from this message board. You need a professional to help you with your problems.

 

 

Experience shapes opinions and mine might have been different to yours. However I know a great number of people who ended up just settling. As much as anyone I am entitled to an opinion, that it doesn't align with yours and others isn't really relevant.

[Romantic_Antics]

I don't think a true match is tailoring yourself to the whims of someone else but rather being yourself and hoping someone likes you for you.

 

This is the part that really resonates with me and where I can give you a tidbit of advice.

 

Always be yourself, don't custom tailor yourself to your perception of someone else's whims, but do so with confidence. Be proud of who you are and have fun with who you are whether you're a nerd, a jock, a nerdy jock, or anything in between across the entire spectrum of introverts and extroverts. Embrace the fact that the absolute best thing about you, and your biggest advantage over everyone else, is that you are unique and there is no one else in this entire world who is exactly like you.

 

Try that on for size and go show the world what you have to offer.