Why can't people be liked for who they are

[basil67]

Well, again, it's not pretentiousness. It's an inability to connect with people on a level they need in order to feel a part of a group or in a relationship or what have you. They just operate on a different wavelength and life is actually harder for them than for the average person in all ways including work, when you'd think it would be easier. But... there's a lot of reading on the subject. No one is going to delve into it though unless they're experiencing the pain of it themselves which is unfortunate. Because if people don't fit in, the knee jerk reaction is to have no compassion and no attempts are made to understand. The misfits are blamed for being inadequate... and a lot of gifted people have grown up believing it. Of course if the person were openly identified as gifted they would still face hostility so... there'd be no winning anyway.

 

We are back to social skills now. A misfit is essentially a person who lacks the social skills to connect. The word comes from not being able to fit in.

 

Some of the language I've seen here (eg sheep) is exactly the type of thing which would cause a person to become alienated. Why would I try to connect with someone who calls me and my peers sheep? Why would I try and connect with a person who uses language which puts themselves on a higher plane? Why would I try and connect with someone who's very cynical about other humans? If a person wants to connect, they need to be warm, friendly and most of all accessible. Social skills 101 requires an understanding of how our words and actions make others feel.

[5x5]

Assuming everyone who aren't accepted lack social intelligence is false. It may be that in SOME cases, but many times it's less to do with that than simply being hardwired differently ... as some people are... some don't fit in because they simply don't THINK like other people. This I know from experience.

 

As for the correlation between higher intelligence and less friends and having a harder time finding life partners... just google it. It's a proven fact. It's not because of social awkwardness... it's CHOICE. The more intelligent you are, the more selective you are... on top of being less able to fit in simply due to being different than the majority in terms of how you think, feel, and experience life. Not all of us see the world the same way. Not all people think the same way. But those who have no trouble being accepted and who skim through life have scant awareness of things like this, but the information is there if you want to start looking for it.

 

Just google 'gifted people and their problems'. It'll take you to a very interesting website. Fascinating stuff and sadly all too true.

 

I was diagnosed with the curse (and I wouldn't wish it on anyone) as tested, of being highly-gifted from a young age. The same applied up to my late twenties when I did the psych testing to get into Army Intelligence when I was serving.

 

I am overtly aware of the fact that I tend to think quite differently from most people, and seem to see things that many others don't see. Now despite having problems with being bored tremendously while at school. Since everything seemed so pedestrian to me and I thought most of my teachers were rather dimwitted.

 

Yet as a highly-gifted person myself and being more extroverted (ENTJ) than introverted, and being fortunate enough to have a good feel for people and rapport with others. Manipulating key-stakeholders and other target audiences is what I did in Intelligence service. I have always felt comfortable with people and haven't lacked for friends or suitors. In fact in my experience plenty of people have been drawn to me, sure I'm not everyone's cup of tea because I have high standards and am often blunt.

 

Yet socialising has always been very easy for me, even on the occasions when I have felt out of place. Likewise I've never felt this compulsion to be anything but myself, since being me seems to work and it's far easier than trying to be someone else.

 

Perhaps some of what you describe is more a measure of being introverted, rather than being intelligent in itself. My wife is intelligent as well, not the same as me but she holds her own. Yet she can relate to what you describe, more than I can. Since she is an introvert (INTJ), which made her asking me out on a date a big deal for her and a thus far once only exception.

 

I figure being gifted and introverted is a double whammy to some degree, yet no one owes anyone anything so if you want something, you work with what you have. Lucky for me I am extroverted, so not all of us who are gifted are in the same end of that boat.

 

As to your further post on it being harder, I err on the side of it's different not harder. Absent walking in someone else's shoes, how can one really know another persons burdens and experiences.

 

Likewise some of what can feel hard for me, has been driven by my behaviour in the face of where I disconnect from what is average which is on me and not anyone else. Just as it's on me that I refused to do some school work for years on end, without compromise and the like. So I am the one responsible for where I find myself.

 

At the end of the day the best we can do is play to our strengths and go on from there, which is the best any of us can do regardless of whatever our IQ is.

 

Oh and I want to add, I think basil67 makes some very good points on this, one can be highly intelligent, yet have no problems relating to others.

[GemmaUK]

The first paragraph is what I deem general manners and things I do as a matter of course on dates. Not sure where you get the idea I wont do dinner dates, for a long time it was the only type of date I did!

Well you did say within this thread that dinner as a third date was too regimented

As well as meeting for a first date in a public place being too regimented and going on an activity as a second date being too regimented.

Many folk have said that a dinner date is a bad idea as a first date - there's two reasons for that. Being stuck for a long time than is required for a first meet and also, unless you go dutch you shell out for someone you don't know but in your case also know you won't like as you have a habit of going on a date just to ease boredom - which is the reason you have given in your threads for going on these dates.

 

You might actually be surprised I am pretty relaxed on dates and I do try to bring some humour and some light heartedness to the time spent, I am not quite so inexperienced that I try and make people feel awkward I actually try and make them feel comfortable by asking about them. The issue I have is they never ask about me!

Do you know what surprises me more? It's that you keep saying that you bring humour etc to dates.

We already spent a long time talking about (has to acquire a Mexican accent to say this as LS doesn't allow the central word) 'Resting Beech Face'

Resting Beech Face is the face that which we (everyone) have when we are not engaging any muscles n our face except for our eyelids being open. In other words 'expressionless (your favourite facial expression to use).

Now there is another facial expression which we have talked about also which is recognised as contempt and it is the easiest expression to fall into naturally from Resting Beech Face.

Contempt can appear on a face as simply as pursed (slightly tightly closed) lips and it increases from there.

If you have, as I have suggested looked up - even just googled Paul Ekmnn's work on facial expressions you know this. I have sent you links in the past).

So then we come to your dates and I will quote your opening line about your last date.

'This date irritated me from the very beginning to an almost unprecedented level.'

Are you seriously saying that your facial expression (when feeling that and also only going on the date out of boredom) was a broad genuine wrinkly eyed smile and your disposition as enthusiastic & cheerful?

[ZA Dater]

Well you did say within this thread that dinner as a third date was too regimented

As well as meeting for a first date in a public place being too regimented and going on an activity as a second date being too regimented.

Many folk have said that a dinner date is a bad idea as a first date - there's two reasons for that. Being stuck for a long time than is required for a first meet and also, unless you go dutch you shell out for someone you don't know but in your case also know you won't like as you have a habit of going on a date just to ease boredom - which is the reason you have given in your threads for going on these dates.

 

 

Do you know what surprises me more? It's that you keep saying that you bring humour etc to dates.

We already spent a long time talking about (has to acquire a Mexican accent to say this as LS doesn't allow the central word) 'Resting Beech Face'

Resting Beech Face is the face that which we (everyone) have when we are not engaging any muscles n our face except for our eyelids being open. In other words 'expressionless (your favourite facial expression to use).

Now there is another facial expression which we have talked about also which is recognised as contempt and it is the easiest expression to fall into naturally from Resting Beech Face.

Contempt can appear on a face as simply as pursed (slightly tightly closed) lips and it increases from there.

If you have, as I have suggested looked up - even just googled Paul Ekmnn's work on facial expressions you know this. I have sent you links in the past).

So then we come to your dates and I will quote your opening line about your last date.

'This date irritated me from the very beginning to an almost unprecedented level.'

Are you seriously saying that your facial expression (when feeling that and also only going on the date out of boredom) was a broad genuine wrinkly eyed smile and your disposition as enthusiastic & cheerful?

 

 

 

Like most people I can present one thing and think something different. My whole regimented comment was more to the fact one is expected to do certain things and how the whole thing seems mired in convention.

 

 

I am always torn between dinner dates, coffee dates and other dates, dinner dates give me longer to try and get to know someone, whereas coffee dates are too short for me to try and impress anyone.

 

 

As for the resting face, I do that some of the time not all of the time, on one of the dates this year I really did try and relax and probably did something right, well partly because "Well I don't see this going further but would you like to come to my place and you can massage me", I declined the offer as I didn't connect with her at all.

[ZA Dater]

Ok so approximately 10 dates / year. Less than 1 date / month. Not much really.

 

 

 

So correct to say neither of these are romantically available to you?

 

 

 

I'm not really sure what you mean by "thought of poorly". If you mean that some people aren't attracted to you, well that again doesn't matter. I guarantee you MOST women aren't attracted to me. The large majority wouldn't even look twice. But I'm not going to date those women anyways. By being yourself, you market yourself to the women that will find someone like you attracted. That will not be the majority of women (and that's the case for practically every average guy out there), but, as you've admitted, there are some women that have found you to be attractive.

 

 

 

You've posted a lot about your dating story here and random strangers have tried to help. I can imagine your friends are even more invested in your happiness so they too would like to help. Their methods don't seem to fit who you are as a person though (again I'll mention I think you need to find a different social circle).

 

 

 

It doesn't sound like you're trying very hard to find someone single to replicate that with. Less than one date per month? You're setting yourself up for failure.

 

 

 

Time to find a new social circle...

 

 

 

You know everybody is different right? What one person wants another might find repulsive. There's nothing that you've mentioned that makes me think nobody would be interested in you.

 

Maybe what you mean to say, is that the one woman you have a crush on, isn't interested in you romantically and tends to go for guys that are nothing like you?

 

 

 

Because those women are interested in different qualities, and that's fine. There's nothing frustrating or nonsensical about it. Some women like jocks. Some like geeks. Some like musicians. Some like yuppies. Some like hippies. Some just like blue collar. Some like academics. Etc. etc. etc. Just because you've seen a few examples of women that like men different from you doesn't mean it's the ABSOLUTE RULE FOR ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE.

 

 

 

 

She gave some great examples. I think many of them are dependent on the situation though. It is a skill though to try to establish a rapport one a first date and that takes effort from both sides.

 

 

 

Honestly, and I can't stress this enough, everybody is different and unique in their own way. You're filtering these people through your lens and they're all coming out the same. It's your impression of them that's the same; not who they are.

 

 

 

You make it seem like this is some rare combination of traits unique only to friend 2. This is actually the case for a lot of people. She isn't some special snowflake.

 

 

 

This might be true of some; I have no doubt about that. But whether suitable or not, you can practice making people feel comfortable. I gave an example of a date where we were clearly unsuitable, but we still had a good time and good conversation. That can be a goal.

 

 

 

I suspect you've tried to ban the thought of dating before. Repressing those very natural desires won't end well. And doesn't work long term. As you've no doubt noticed...

 

 

 

Well as time has gone on I find fewer and fewer people I actually want to go out with, OLD here , the likes of Okcupid is populated by people who have been there for years, Tinder is not that great for me at all, others seem to have massive success here I certainly haven't had much.

 

 

The bold part is one of, if not the greatest irritations in my life, sure there are but NONE I find remotely attractive at all. Everyone else seems to find who they want, for me it seems a case of try and make do with whatever I can get irrespective if I like them or not.

 

 

As for the "help" I eventually simply said I don't that sort of help, they do still try from time to time but there isn't a great level of interest from their side, for them going out is going out to get laid, they couldn't care if the person is interesting or not, that's their sole objective.

 

 

Not sure where I am supposed to find these people...

 

 

I don't understand why people end up with the people they do. And in many cases complain about said people. For most it seems the entire relationship is one based on convenience.

 

 

I have tried other ideas in the hope of meeting interesting people, heck I even tried the seeking arrangement method of dating and at least there I had some choice, it was any better than Okcupid but for the fact I found the people to be ever so slightly more interesting.

 

 

Ok, I'll get panned for saying this but I actually need someone who can operate at a higher level, I go to forma dinners and the club I run, the vast majority are educated people (mostly older than me) and I simply need someone who can fit in with that sort of environment. Which drives me toward the educated, average to nice looking person which puts me in the greatest level of competition as all guys seem to want that person.

 

 

Here is the thing, I have never figured out how to market myself, being me clearly isn't the key, so I tried the more superficial methods and those don't work either. I just wish I had some friends to be honest and I do but they aren't in the same stage of life as me.

 

 

Its also occurred to me that at 34 I am at the point where a 24yo wont be interested in me and probably wouldn't relate, a 34yo single mom wont interest me, a 32yo divorced lady wont interest me either.

 

 

So all I really have are maybe the 26-28 bracket but even then a lot of them seem to want kids.

 

 

Bottom line is I'd probably rather have nothing than something I don't want or simply have a good friend, as imperfect as that scenario is at least I don't have to go to event after event on my own.

[5x5]

As for the resting face, I do that some of the time not all of the time, on one of the dates this year I really did try and relax and probably did something right, well partly because "Well I don't see this going further but would you like to come to my place and you can massage me", I declined the offer as I didn't connect with her at all.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but since you are a virgin, perhaps you would do well to gain some sexual relationship experience along the way, with some women who aren't a perfect match from the get go.

[ZA Dater]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but since you are a virgin, perhaps you would do well to gain some sexual relationship experience along the way, with some women who aren't a perfect match from the get go.

 

 

 

Ok here is how the conversation went "come over and you can touch me but I wont be touching you, I have had bad experience with men".

 

 

Way I see it I have to like them to want to sleep with them.

[GemmaUK]

As for the resting face, I do that some of the time not all of the time, on one of the dates this year I really did try and relax and probably did something right, well partly because "Well I don't see this going further but would you like to come to my place and you can massage me",

 

So, one date this year you did do the thing you claim to do on every date.

That sounds more like the truth!

Man! You should be a politician! Lol!

 

And what a great gentle suggestion from her which could have begun to open you up a little and gain you some experience of intimate touch with someone you have no connection, bond or feelings for - which is where the majority of people gain their early experiences of intimacy and sexual experience from.

 

ZA, are you here for help or are you here just to debate your situation?

[ZA Dater]

So, one date this year you did do the thing you claim to do on every date.

That sounds more like the truth!

Man! You should be a politician! Lol!

 

And what a great gentle suggestion from her which could have begun to open you up a little and gain you some experience of intimate touch with someone you have no connection, bond or feelings for - which is where the majority of people gain their early experiences of intimacy and sexual experience from.

 

ZA, are you here for help or are you here just to debate your situation?

 

 

 

I did not feel comfortable with her, I suppose I should have just jumped at the opportunity to go back to a strangers place. Again that does not appeal to me, it did with the one who was fairly drunk but morally I wasn't going there. With that one I hoped she would actually go on date two with me but apparently someone better arrived.

 

 

I did get a kiss out of the latter one and I actually did like her.

[5x5]

Ok, I'll get panned for saying this but I actually need someone who can operate at a higher level, I go to forma dinners and the club I run, the vast majority are educated people (mostly older than me) and I simply need someone who can fit in with that sort of environment. Which drives me toward the educated, average to nice looking person which puts me in the greatest level of competition as all guys seem to want that person.

 

At its core dating is about finding compatible sexual partners. Your priorities don't seem to be about finding compatible sexual partners.

 

It seems like you want a woman as an accessory for social functions, rather than a woman who is a sexual partner.

 

My ex-wife turned out to be highly intelligent, yet neither of us said a word about intelligent things of general interest. Our first meeting was founded upon her telling me how beautiful I was, followed by her asking me to kiss her. We then spent a couple of hours cooing and touching each other, followed by then having sex.

 

My current (2nd) wife, did chat to me for a bit over a couple of weeks at work, before she asked me out on a date. Now she had just completed a STEM degree in which many of her peers failed, all while having other tertiary qualifications as well. Though it was nice she was smart and we got on well and had some interesting conversations (including about popular music).

 

Her asking me out was at its core about being attracted to me sexually, my saying yes was about me being attracted to her sexually. All else followed, after determining our sexual compatibility first through actually testing that compatibility.

 

I've been with plenty of women who are smart, successful, accomplished and attractive. Yet I can't recall any of my first experiences with them, seeing us talk about history, politics, technology, philosophy, science etc. Sure afterwards we get there, since well we can't help but talk shop to some degree.

 

Yet the first few dates have always been about the core of dating. Which is determining whether we are sexually attracted to one another or not. Then testing whether that attraction translates into us meshing well sexually when having sex.

 

If you're after platonic company say so and stop dating, since dating to no end muddies the water by sending mixed signals. On the other hand if you're after sex pursue exactly that and don't be shy about it, then over time the rest frequently follows.

[5x5]

Ok here is how the conversation went "come over and you can touch me but I wont be touching you, I have had bad experience with men".

 

Of which it couldn't hurt to say something along the lines of. "Okay, but it's going to be tough for you to keep your hands off me."

[ZA Dater]

Of which it couldn't hurt to say something along the lines of. "Okay, but it's going to be tough for you to keep your hands off me."

 

 

 

I did say something similar but the whole text exchange was so awkward I wasn't remotely interested.

 

 

The story which went with it I cant really repeat on an open form but suffice to say she had only had one bf and told me she didn't enjoy sex so she didn't want to. Oh and she didn't want to see me naked.

[5x5]

Text exchange!!!!???

 

I don't know about you, but there's more mileage in having conversations like that in person. Doing such things over text is largely illusory.

[ZA Dater]

At its core dating is about finding compatible sexual partners. Your priorities don't seem to be about finding compatible sexual partners.

It seems like you want a woman as an accessory for social functions, rather than a woman who is a sexual partner.

 

My ex-wife turned out to be highly intelligent, yet neither of us said a word about intelligent things of general interest. Our first meeting was founded upon her telling me how beautiful I was, followed by her asking me to kiss her. We then spent a couple of hours cooing and touching each other, followed by then having sex.

 

My current (2nd) wife, did chat to me for a bit over a couple of weeks at work, before she asked me out on a date. Now she had just completed a STEM degree in which many of her peers failed, all while having other tertiary qualifications as well. Though it was nice she was smart and we got on well and had some interesting conversations (including about popular music).

 

Her asking me out was at its core about being attracted to me sexually, my saying yes was about me being attracted to her sexually. All else followed, after determining our sexual compatibility first through actually testing that compatibility.

I've been with plenty of women who are smart, successful, accomplished and attractive. Yet I can't recall any of my first experiences with them, seeing us talk about history, politics, technology, philosophy, science etc. Sure afterwards we get there, since well we can't help but talk shop to some degree.

 

Yet the first few dates have always been about the core of dating. Which is determining whether we are sexually attracted to one another or not. Then testing whether that attraction translates into us meshing well sexually when having sex.

 

If you're after platonic company say so and stop dating, since dating to no end muddies the water by sending mixed signals. On the other hand if you're after sex pursue exactly that and don't be shy about it, then over time the rest frequently follows.

 

 

I answer from the bottom up.

 

 

I tried going for sex only, again the choices were terrible so I then decided ok lets try and find some sort of intellectual attraction and I did meet some people who had enough of physical and intellectual attraction but they weren't ever single.

 

 

I wouldn't know if anyone was actually attracted to me sexually.

 

 

Being a 34yo virgin I just reckon I am not compatible with anyone really so I try and look for someone who maybe I am compatible with as a friend with the hope I could maybe turn that into something more.

 

 

Nobody has ever described me as physically attractive so kudos to you.

 

 

My priority is to try and work with who I am, who is going to want a 34yo virgin, nobody basically so the only way I can in my mind overcome that is to hopefully find someone who likes me enough in other ways to compensate for that.

 

 

Oh and I wouldn't know how to seduce anyone either so.

[5x5]

I answer from the bottom up.

 

 

I tried going for sex only, again the choices were terrible so I then decided ok lets try and find some sort of intellectual attraction and I did meet some people who had enough of physical and intellectual attraction but they weren't ever single.

 

 

I wouldn't know if anyone was actually attracted to me sexually.

 

 

Being a 34yo virgin I just reckon I am not compatible with anyone really so I try and look for someone who maybe I am compatible with as a friend with the hope I could maybe turn that into something more.

 

 

Nobody has ever described me as physically attractive so kudos to you.

 

 

My priority is to try and work with who I am, who is going to want a 34yo virgin, nobody basically so the only way I can in my mind overcome that is to hopefully find someone who likes me enough in other ways to compensate for that.

 

 

Oh and I wouldn't know how to seduce anyone either so.

 

Well I don't know how to seduce anyone either. Yet I do know how to express myself in person and say what I want and act accordingly.

 

That said if you want to know if someone is sexually attracted to you, it couldn't hurt in person to express exactly that to others.

 

As to being attractive, well there's more than that. Being charming company will always go much further than being just attractive or just boring or worse being both attractive and boring at the same time.

 

Being a virgin is not the end of the world, my current wife had only just started having sex for the first time a few weeks before we started dating. Until then she was saving herself for marriage, since she hadn't found any suitable men and she had been proposed to in the past and had other boyfriends.

 

She was late into the game of sex at almost 26. When I first had sex with her, she was a bit clumsy and awkward there was so much she had never done. Yet as it turns out she is a sexual dynamo, who is very good at sex, a pleasure to be with and is up for almost anything.

 

The thing is you might turn out to be in your element with sex after a short while as well, once you go there or you might end up like me where my first time felt like coming home it really was amongst the most natural and easiest of things for me to do.

 

Likewise at your age, with rare exception most people would presume you're not a virgin, so having a hang up about it is all coming from you. Sex is just another thing to do, at one point you couldn't read or drive, yet now you do both and in both instances neither are a big deal.

 

So it shouldn't matter if you're not all that to begin with when it comes to sex, sure it may lead to some awkward moments to begin with. Yet going for it and doing it more, ought to fix that in short order.

 

This idea that you can become friends with someone and from that generate sexual attraction seems like a fools errand to me. In all of my years I can only recall one instance of someone first just being a friend becoming interested in me like that later on. Yet banking on such things, sounds like a road paved with loneliness and frustration.

 

Don't be boring, don't be passive be bolder and don't be afraid.

[ZA Dater]

Well I don't know how to seduce anyone either. Yet I do know how to express myself in person and say what I want and act accordingly.

 

That said if you want to know if someone is sexually attracted to you, it couldn't hurt in person to express exactly that to others.

 

As to being attractive, well there's more than that. Being charming company will always go much further than being just attractive or just boring or worse being both attractive and boring at the same time.

 

Being a virgin is not the end of the world, my current wife had only just started having sex for the first time a few weeks before we started dating. Until then she was saving herself for marriage, since she hadn't found any suitable men and she had been proposed to in the past and had other boyfriends.

 

She was late into the game of sex at almost 26. When I first had sex with her, she was a bit clumsy and awkward there was so much she had never done. Yet as it turns out she is a sexual dynamo, who is very good at sex, a pleasure to be with and is up for almost anything.

 

The thing is you might turn out to be in your element with sex after a short while as well, once you go there or you might end up like me where my first time felt like coming home it really was amongst the most natural and easiest of things for me to do.

 

Likewise at your age, with rare exception most people would presume you're not a virgin, so having a hang up about it is all coming from you. Sex is just another thing to do, at one point you couldn't read or drive, yet now you do both and in both instances neither are a big deal.

 

So it shouldn't matter if you're not all that to begin with when it comes to sex, sure it may lead to some awkward moments to begin with. Yet going for it and doing it more, ought to fix that in short order.

 

This idea that you can become friends with someone and from that generate sexual attraction seems like a fools errand to me. In all of my years I can only recall one instance of someone first just being a friend becoming interested in me like that later on. Yet banking on such things, sounds like a road paved with loneliness and frustration.

Don't be boring, don't be passive be bolder and don't be afraid.

 

 

1: How, I just get rejected with everyone I like.

2: I am not really charming at all, if I was I would have had success with people I actually liked. That's the part the irritates me, other have this chameleon type charm, I don't see things like that, it is what it is and tend to call it how it is, not pretend its something else.

3: Exactly the problem and just too awkward to contemplate unless I know

4: Replace "may" with "will".

5: Its the only way I know really, I cant think of any other ideas, my entire "game" if you can call it that is underpinned by an overall attraction to a person, so if she is gorgeous but speaks badly I'd find the average pretty to me looking well spoken lady more appealing. Probably because I know I have no chance with the gorgeous lady anyway. Frustrating is never being found attractive by anyone I actually want. It all really centres around one thing, I don't receive any sort of attention. Going out is pointless because there are always better alternatives than me, cooler guys, guys who do the drink party thing, they will always be more appealing. Guys who look like some version of a gym model, again they will always be more appealing.

 

 

You are right though, its paved with plenty of loneliness, barring a few fleeting moments when it isn't but mostly it a circle that goes round and round.

[Normm]

1: How, I just get rejected with everyone I like.

2: I am not really charming at all, if I was I would have had success with people I actually liked.

In many of your posts you talk about the very few people you actually liked- so what about the hoardes of others who don't meet your criteria? You aren't liking THEM for who they are.

 

You want the people who YOU like to like YOU for who you are, yet those people are doing the same thing to you (writing you off as someone they don't like) as you do to most people you meet.

 

Even though you dish out your fair share of "I don't like these people I've met", you don't apparently think it's fair when you're on the receiving end of the dislike.

[JuneL]

As to being attractive, well there's more than that. Being charming company will always go much further than being just attractive or just boring or worse being both attractive and boring at the same time.

 

 

You missed the point: The OP is clearly very bitter about guys who are naturally charming and have charisma.

[basil67]

In many of your posts you talk about the very few people you actually liked- so what about the hoardes of others who don't meet your criteria? You aren't liking THEM for who they are.

 

You want the people who YOU like to like YOU for who you are, yet those people are doing the same thing to you (writing you off as someone they don't like) as you do to most people you meet.

 

Even though you dish out your fair share of "I don't like these people I've met", you don't apparently think it's fair when you're on the receiving end of the dislike.

 

Indeed.

 

ZA, when we want to see changes in the world, the first place to start the change is within ourselves.

[ZA Dater]

In many of your posts you talk about the very few people you actually liked- so what about the hoardes of others who don't meet your criteria? You aren't liking THEM for who they are.

 

You want the people who YOU like to like YOU for who you are, yet those people are doing the same thing to you (writing you off as someone they don't like) as you do to most people you meet.

 

Even though you dish out your fair share of "I don't like these people I've met", you don't apparently think it's fair when you're on the receiving end of the dislike.

 

 

 

You miss the point entirely. My point is people pretend to be what they are not in the hope that someone may like that version of them. I don't pretend to be anything but myself and no I don't like false people either.

 

 

The guy who sits talking BS to some lady in the hope he can take her home later, that's that I am talking about. I fully accept few people like me. Why something so outwardly false should impress anyone I don't know.

 

 

I was once on the receiving end of this falseness from a date, I could quickly ascertain what she was saying didn't add up but I give the story this, it was interesting at face value.

[ZA Dater]

Indeed.

 

ZA, when we want to see changes in the world, the first place to start the change is within ourselves.

 

 

 

Fantastic! Follow the crowd mentality, not for me thanks. If the price I have to be is never being with anyone and never dating them I need to be ready to pay it because the day I follow the crowd I may as well give up on everything I believe in and stand for.,

 

 

Yes, I resent people who use false charm and blatant BS to try and impress others, it amounts to nothing more than deception but there is a class of person I dislike even more and those are the ones who simply do everything without questioning anything. Ask questions at least, its the very same thing you described a few posts back, people are taking an interest and they aren't asking questions! Why?

 

 

If someone I knew started a new job, I would ask them about it, take an interest in them because that's what I am saying, people don't take any interest. Yes, these dates I have been on were not so nice BUT I always made sure I took an interest in whoever was sitting in front me, I tried to understand and ascertain what they liked, tried to elicit some positive reaction from them in the hope they too might ask me a question, that's the thing if it were a case of people taking some sort of interest in me I could then say ok the date wasn't too bad but over and over again is this one sided nonsense. Eventually I simply resort to trying to sell my attributes.

 

 

The point is I don't know what these people expect! They give me nothing conversationally and hope I will like them, I take an interest but they don't reciprocate that interest, why bother to come along if that's the tactic?

 

 

I think 5X5 above probably has sort of answered my question and made me think a bit, though I simply have found very few of them attractive in that way. Maybe all dating is, is about sex, nothing else.

 

 

Maybe I have had it all wrong from the start, when I look at these lazy unmotivated guys and wonder why on earth anyone would date them, well perhaps its just about sex nothing else, I know a few of this sort of guy and they all date and long term relationships so perhaps my thinking is wrong, have some sexual attraction and whether you do nothing with your life is completely irrelevant. Or then there is the guy who can hardly hold any conversation at all.

 

 

Yes, I think I get it now and yes now I know why I am so bad at this.

[GemmaUK]

What's become really evident is that you keep calling people sheep but you're the biggest sheep of all.

Sheep never take a risk, never 'think' outside of a patch of grass, never diversify. Every single poster here has taken risks, has thought outside, has diversified and has learned not to do the same thing time and again expecting a different result.

I am pretty sure that sometime in the near future you will post again about a date that you went on with a women you weren't interested in and pretty much the same thread will transpire again. Just like risk management - you look at a history and weigh the odds of the same exact thing happening. If we look at your posting history then we all know that new thread is on it's way soon because the probability is so so high.

When your friends have tried to help and teased you it's because they've been acting as the sheepdog. Trying to scare you with the teasing just enough hoping you'll man up, take the responsibility, stick up for yourself, prove them wrong. The way to know that for sure is that you'll see eyerolls and shrugs from those teasing you when you don't take the reigns.

 

And that thing that you call fakery? It's actually called flirting. Both men and women know it's that and know absolutely it has that OTT element and my goodness it's so much fun!

[5x5]

What do you bring to your dates, what do you offer that makes you more appealing than your competition? What is in it for the women who date you?

 

From what I read, you have a strong sense of entitlement and think many other men don't deserve to get the women they get.

 

Yet they are obviously doing what works for them and far more importantly works for the women who they pursue. That doesn't mean they are losers or pretenders, what it does mean however is they are successful at what you seem determined to fail at.

 

Life isn't fair, no one owes you anything, especially the women who you want.

 

As to your schtick about being unattractive, I say that is superfluous piffle. Seriously if you had two heads you wouldn't even get first dates, yet you do so your appearance is okay and your dates evidently think so in the first instance otherwise they wouldn't go on a date with you.

 

At the end of the day, the most significant impediments you face, are your own sense of entitlement versus what you offer, blame shifting, ego protection, hypocrisy and an inability to be charming (i.e. be pleasant, make someone feel comfortable, bring them out of themselves and feel some rapport with you). Combined with a rigidness that gets you nothing of what you want.

 

Back to what do you bring, do your dates enjoy themselves with you on your dates?

 

Are they happy dating you, do they have fun, are they laughing, do they want to touch you?

 

Does your rapport and banter with them encourage them to move closer to you, do you feel the buzzing of sexual tension from them, does the air feel thick like butter when you are looking them in the eye?

 

Do you hold their eyes, and look into them, without being creepy or staring?

 

Be honest is your conversation flat, somewhat stale and rather boring?

 

Seriously droning on even with a women who is intellectually accomplished, yet wants to just have a fun on a date is not the way into her pants or heart.

 

Is your picker broken or does the weight of your personality kill off any chance you have from the moment you open your mouth with your dates? I lean towards the latter, yet the former may sometimes happen as well.

 

Back to being charming, being charming doesn't require someone to lie or to pretend to be something they're not. It is simply being pleasant company, in a manner that is appealing to that company.

 

Anyway that's it from me for the moment.

Edited June 15, 2018 by 5x5

[5x5]

Fantastic! Follow the crowd mentality, not for me thanks. If the price I have to be is never being with anyone and never dating them I need to be ready to pay it because the day I follow the crowd I may as well give up on everything I believe in and stand for.,

 

Nice drama.

 

I think 5X5 above probably has sort of answered my question and made me think a bit, though I simply have found very few of them attractive in that way. Maybe all dating is, is about sex, nothing else.

 

That's not my point.

[JuneL]

I wonder if the only woman whom the OP likes and who has friend-zoned the OP has been seeing any guy(s). Is she also attracted to guys who like to “pretend” to be something that they are not? If yes, then why does the OP still think this lady is not too shallow for him; if not, then why does it matter that most women whom he’s not interested in are attracted to those guys anyway?