Why can't people be liked for who they are

[ZA Dater]

How did K and your old work colleague meet their boyfriends? I know you have criticized both guys. But since they see you as their friend, you can ask them what traits attracted them to their respective guys. I bet they wouldn’t tell you their boyfriend is a deceptive manipulator, right? Can you just LISTEN to their answers without the interference of your opinionated mind?

 

K. Her bf is her best friends brother. The co worker she met him at church. I can ask whether I get an honest reply considering they both know I chased them is another matter!

[JuneL]

K. Her bf is her best friends brother. The co worker she met him at church. I can ask whether I get an honest reply considering they both know I chased them is another matter!

 

Okay. At least you know they both knew their boyfriends for a while before started to date them. So I bet neither is the type to use Tinder if single. When I encouraged you to start/join an intellectual discussions meetup group, the purpose is to get to meet people whom you can bond with. You never know if the elderly lady has a daughter to set you up with, or another nerdy guy has a twin sister who is your perfect match.

 

Their answers about what attracted them to the guys would be illuminating to you, even if they might not feel comfortable sharing 100%.

[ZA Dater]

Okay. At least you know they both knew their boyfriends for a while before started to date them. So I bet neither is the type to use Tinder if single. When I encouraged you to start/join an intellectual discussions meetup group, the purpose is to get to meet people whom you can bond with. You never know if the elderly lady has a daughter to set you up with, or another nerdy guy has a twin sister who is your perfect match.

 

Their answers about what attracted them to the guys would be illuminating to you, even if they might not feel comfortable sharing 100%.

 

 

 

Both were on Tinder.

 

 

Well I know why both were not interested in me so they is something. I saw what your idea was, just my experiences with being set up are rather horrid to say the least and I'd never do something with the idea of being set up.

 

 

It is however a decent enough idea. In K's instance it was a couple of pretty spectacular dinners which impressed her. How well that relationship actually works I don't know because she complains about him a fair amount.

 

 

Undoubtedly the choices I made have impacted my social life very negatively so your point is taken and accepted. I try to just adapt to that, I have no shame in admitting I use retail therapy a fair amount.

 

 

If I am totally honest I have just closed myself off, its a protective mechanism because for all I have managed to accomplish I live with a lot of disappointment and most of that centres around relationships, I'd just like have a nice one once.

 

 

What I can do is not show any of this, most people are have never seen me with a date that me being alone is quite normal, I wont lie, having K attend events is helpful because at least I don't feel alone and we do end up having quite a good time and I can open up because I want to present the best me and I know I wont be judged.

 

 

If I could change one thing it would be find much more confidence consistently, and yes Normal Person, I don't deny I have failed dismally at dating, I am happy to own that. I wish I had handled many situations better, the number of times I wish I had said something but hadn't or wished I hadn't said something, too many to count. I heap the pressure on myself and I carry around this disappointment so when I am not wowed it just becomes business, when I am wowed I can bring who I am out.

[ZA Dater]

Joining late here, but I don't think anyone is forced NOT to be themselves or woo people, it is just acceptance that the market value of different people is different and one's market value may not be as high as they want to be (therefore they attempt changing).

 

It's like selling a house - if you don't renovate it, you'd get less money for it regardless of the good location and other perks.

 

If people were were less sensitive to evaluation and were just honest with themselves, their life will just be so much easier. The issue is when a 5 (in beauty, intelligence, whatever) believe they are 8, and try to sell themselves as 10. If they were keeping the 'evaluation' realistic, there is plenty of market for 5s.

 

 

I don't subscribe to that in any sphere of life. You need to go out and aim for what you feel the best is. You cannot go out and pretend to settle for something when you know you can much better.

 

 

One thing I am thankful for is I have met a lot of quality people socially. Yes I wouldn't ever be their dating cup of tea but they did give me a unique perspective on things. Many were warm and friendly and made me feel good about myself, some gave me good advice.

[ZA Dater]

Ok seeing as change is advocated. How far do I go with this, do I keep trying the impossible, I love the impossible because sometimes it is possible and if I am working at something I have an objective.

 

 

Going back to OLD doesn't give me an objective at all, it just makes me feel terrible when I see who I match to.

 

 

I hold a lot back, a huge amount actually. Do you think I should just throw it all out and see what happens?

 

 

How honest must I be, is there in merit in total transparency? Do you think most people appreciate total honesty?

 

 

One thing I tend to do is dance around an issue and think people can read me, when it doesn't seem they can.

 

 

How do I attract people, do I go for a relationships or a roll around? If the latter how do I play that game without feeling like I am using the person. Do I stick to friends or try move those in another direction? Its hard for me to not see the huge benefits the see every so often friend gives me, especially because I feel so lonely most of the time?

[bene]

An objective could be exploring people with an open mind and being curious about them. You can make it an experiment of observing human interactions.

 

I would just practise striking up conversations in everyday situations, nothing too heavy but just taking interest in people. Observe people’s body language and reactions, what makes them smile, what makes them at ease. It doesn’t need to be a chore, no need to make it too serious. It is not about pleasing people but getting to know them.

 

I’d say the key word is sincerity, not “total honesty” as in bursting something brash into people’s faces and later feeling triumphant that the advice didn’t work.

 

If you see obvious deal breakers in people you just move on. You have your boundaries and there’s no need to ruminate why they are like this. There is no use lamenting about society in general and develop some generalized theories. Your goal is to find one person you click with, not some average generic person who doesn’t even exist.

 

Also I’d suggest some business or networking events instead of OLD for a change where you are more likely to meet like minded people. Maybe OLD is too much of a mixed bag for you.

Edited July 18, 2018 by bene

[Haydn]

I`ll have another go....

 

It`s great to be yourself and be liked for who you are.

 

But with any RS comes the ability to adapt.

 

To the needs and desires and likes of the other person and vice versa.

 

You don`t need to do a 180 and become someone else (That would be stupid)

 

But the fun is, you can change and enjoy what you become with someone else.

 

And they, hopefully too.

 

They will of course like or love you for who you are but if you are so rigid, you will become, frankly `A crashing bore`

 

Please stop elevating yourself above others, we get it!

 

Stop trying so hard.

 

Right, i`m off to build an Ark. (Yes they laughed at him too)

[ZA Dater]

An objective could be exploring people with an open mind and being curious about them. You can make it an experiment of observing human interactions.

 

I would just practise striking up conversations in everyday situations, nothing too heavy but just taking interest in people. Observe people’s body language and reactions, what makes them smile, what makes them at ease. It doesn’t need to be a chore, no need to make it too serious. It is not about pleasing people but getting to know them.

 

I’d say the key word is sincerity, not “total honesty” as in bursting something brash into people’s faces and later feeling triumphant that the advice didn’t work.

 

If you see obvious deal breakers in people you just move on. You have your boundaries and there’s no need to ruminate why they are like this. There is no use lamenting about society in general and develop some generalized theories. Your goal is to find one person you click with, not some average generic person who doesn’t even exist.

 

Also I’d suggest some business or networking events instead of OLD for a change where you are more likely to meet like minded people. Maybe OLD is too much of a mixed bag for you.

 

 

 

Is there any real benefit with trying different things with people I have no real chance with?

 

 

The getting to know and the pleasing is a mixed bag for me, a very grey area because inevitably I try and do both IF I like the person.

 

 

Taking an interest in people I like isn't difficult, its taking an interest I people I don't find interesting that is much harder.

 

 

Why I don't generally project that much is because I think when you have been kicked in the face often enough you tend to duck before the next kick.

[ZA Dater]

I`ll have another go....

 

It`s great to be yourself and be liked for who you are.

 

But with any RS comes the ability to adapt.

 

To the needs and desires and likes of the other person and vice versa.

 

You don`t need to do a 180 and become someone else (That would be stupid)

 

But the fun is, you can change and enjoy what you become with someone else.

 

And they, hopefully too.

 

They will of course like or love you for who you are but if you are so rigid, you will become, frankly `A crashing bore`

 

Please stop elevating yourself above others, we get it!

 

Stop trying so hard.

 

Right, i`m off to build an Ark. (Yes they laughed at him too)

 

 

 

I am more than happy to adapt but to what? Some people really bring the best out in me and others just don't. My problem is also shyness mixed with a lack of confidence, again the right people make those two things go away.

 

 

My other problem is not having a lot of good past experiences to build on, a lot of what I do is try and build good experiences but its difficult when you don't see the person more than once or don't like them to begin with.

 

 

I have never been good at opening up with people, in all honesty this forum knows more about my dating struggles than 99% of people I know, I hide it fairly well but evidently the disappointment is hard to hide.

 

 

Another example I am giving a speech tonight to 150 people, there is one person in the audience I want to impress so I have that motivation, its a topic I am well versed on so the shyness goes away once I get talking.

 

 

I have very clear results driven objectives but mostly I have had to adapt and accept something fantastic but not wholly what I want because there aren't any viable alternatives.

 

 

Otherwise I need to change tact completely I just try and find physical experience.

[brigit87]

I am more than happy to adapt but to what? Some people really bring the best out in me and others just don't. My problem is also shyness mixed with a lack of confidence, again the right people make those two things go away.

 

 

My other problem is not having a lot of good past experiences to build on, a lot of what I do is try and build good experiences but its difficult when you don't see the person more than once or don't like them to begin with.

 

 

I have never been good at opening up with people, in all honesty this forum knows more about my dating struggles than 99% of people I know, I hide it fairly well but evidently the disappointment is hard to hide.

 

 

Another example I am giving a speech tonight to 150 people, there is one person in the audience I want to impress so I have that motivation, its a topic I am well versed on so the shyness goes away once I get talking.

 

 

I have very clear results driven objectives but mostly I have had to adapt and accept something fantastic but not wholly what I want because there aren't any viable alternatives.

 

 

Otherwise I need to change tact completely I just try and find physical experience.

 

Right now I think your biggest issue is focusing other peoples approval to feel OK. It's normal to want others approval but it seems to be making you a bit neurotic. That's your cue to take a step back and develop a better comfort level with yourself.

[ZA Dater]

Right now I think your biggest issue is focusing other peoples approval to feel OK. It's normal to want others approval but it seems to be making you a bit neurotic. That's your cue to take a step back and develop a better comfort level with yourself.

 

 

 

I don't disagree with that. Its 100% true. I am happy with who I am for the most part but when I go out and try and date, I just become very unhappy with myself because its just rejection after rejection.

 

 

People say I should give examples of how I interact

 

 

I am going to do this tonight

 

 

"You want to join me for a drink, ok we know I don't drink but neither of us has had dinner and I'd far prefer to have dinner in company".

[JuneL]

How was their experience with Tinder?

 

Both were on Tinder.

 

 

Well I know why both were not interested in me so they is something. I saw what your idea was, just my experiences with being set up are rather horrid to say the least and I'd never do something with the idea of being set up.

 

 

It is however a decent enough idea. In K's instance it was a couple of pretty spectacular dinners which impressed her. How well that relationship actually works I don't know because she complains about him a fair amount.

 

 

Undoubtedly the choices I made have impacted my social life very negatively so your point is taken and accepted. I try to just adapt to that, I have no shame in admitting I use retail therapy a fair amount.

 

 

If I am totally honest I have just closed myself off, its a protective mechanism because for all I have managed to accomplish I live with a lot of disappointment and most of that centres around relationships, I'd just like have a nice one once.

 

 

What I can do is not show any of this, most people are have never seen me with a date that me being alone is quite normal, I wont lie, having K attend events is helpful because at least I don't feel alone and we do end up having quite a good time and I can open up because I want to present the best me and I know I wont be judged.

 

 

If I could change one thing it would be find much more confidence consistently, and yes Normal Person, I don't deny I have failed dismally at dating, I am happy to own that. I wish I had handled many situations better, the number of times I wish I had said something but hadn't or wished I hadn't said something, too many to count. I heap the pressure on myself and I carry around this disappointment so when I am not wowed it just becomes business, when I am wowed I can bring who I am out.

[JuneL]

“Well I know why both were not interested in me so they is something.”

Would you mind sharing?

[ZA Dater]

How was their experience with Tinder?

 

 

 

Neither had good experiences with it.

 

 

To answer you next question.

 

 

M: being a co worker I think ended that idea, reasonable enough I think. I suspect religion played a part too.

 

 

K: "he has no confidence", "he is too quiet". I know this because a mutual friend asked her.

 

 

So I went and tried to acquire those two things and I would say my friendship has improved with her, I cant really hide with her because she reads me almost perfectly, for example I get teased about things which happened two years ago. Another mutual friend has told me K is actually quite fond of me.

 

 

It turns out K doesn't have much confidence either, she just fakes it, she admitted that to me in one of our more deep conversations. Like everyone I have liked she just laps up any an every bit of attention I send her way.

 

 

I am not completely indifferent to change if there is the right motivation to do so. For me I prefer to chase something than chase nothing, work wise I am always chasing self imposed targets and it I like to measure progress along the way. Its very hard to measure dating progress.

[Normm]

Its very hard to measure dating progress.

 

 

You could use an Excel spreadsheet. I use spreadsheets for EVERYTHING. In column A you could put "girls name". Then have column B for "chatted a bit by messaging". Column C could be "spoke on phone". Column D could be "met up for first date". Column E and so forth could be for subsequent dates. I know those columns will be empty at the moment but lets think positive. If you use the graphing function you'll see a relatively flat line with a few blips where you got a few first dates. If you progress you'll see even more blips and they will appear higher on the chart the further you get in your dating endeavors.

[JuneL]

You could use an Excel spreadsheet. I use spreadsheets for EVERYTHING. In column A you could put "girls name". Then have column B for "chatted a bit by messaging". Column C could be "spoke on phone". Column D could be "met up for first date". Column E and so forth could be for subsequent dates. I know those columns will be empty at the moment but lets think positive. If you use the graphing function you'll see a relatively flat line with a few blips where you got a few first dates. If you progress you'll see even more blips and they will appear higher on the chart the further you get in your dating endeavors.

 

I think you need to weigh the blips by quality (e.g. someone with K’s quality gets a weight of 10, and the poor teacher who dodged the education question probably gets a weight of 1, etc.).

[Normm]

I think you need to weigh the blips by quality (e.g. someone with K’s quality gets a weight of 10, and the poor teacher who dodged the education question probably gets a weight of 1, etc.).

 

 

Yes! And use the different colors for the various bar graph functions. K can be in red. The girl who wanted nothing but sex can be purple. Or maybe blue.

[ZA Dater]

After being backed into a metaphorical corner here I decided to adapt and take some of the advice.

 

 

What I did was

 

 

1: good eye contact

2: winking

3: banter

4: found as much confidence as I could muster

5: light conversation

6: some humour

7: some subtle innuendo.

 

 

What did all this get me

 

 

1: very relaxed body language

2: smiles

3: and "wow I didn't know you could do this"

 

 

The big "win" if you can all it that was this parting good bye. A proper hug and this

 

 

Her: Well you did exceptionally well, I think your day has improved

Me: It has but there are always certain people who can make any day a good day, finished that off with a wink.

 

 

It was a fun evening all in all.

[brigit87]

After being backed into a metaphorical corner here I decided to adapt and take some of the advice.

 

 

What I did was

 

 

1: good eye contact

2: winking

3: banter

4: found as much confidence as I could muster

5: light conversation

6: some humour

7: some subtle innuendo.

 

 

What did all this get me

 

 

1: very relaxed body language

2: smiles

3: and "wow I didn't know you could do this"

 

 

The big "win" if you can all it that was this parting good bye. A proper hug and this

 

 

Her: Well you did exceptionally well, I think your day has improved

Me: It has but there are always certain people who can make any day a good day, finished that off with a wink.

 

 

It was a fun evening all in all.

 

Now you could write a book on it. "The shy guys dating Manual" LOL I'm serious write the book it could help you get what you want to achieve and it'll probably sell.

[BaileyB]

After being backed into a metaphorical corner here I decided to adapt and take some of the advice.

 

It was a fun evening all in all.

 

Wow! You have finally decided to adapt and take our advice! And, look what happened - you had a fun evening with a woman who enjoyed herself in your company and hopefully, wants to see you again... will wonders never cease! Good for you!

[JuneL]

Great job on the great date! Please share more details. Are you arranging a real date after this first meet soon?

 

It was a fun evening all in all.

 

^^^Glad you were able to be in the moment. I think you used to get way too fixated on the outcome, and forget to enjoy the process for itself. You can have a fun date without discussing Einstein’s major contributions in theoretical physics beyond relativity. Even if nothing comes out of it, you still had a great time.

[ZA Dater]

Wow! You have finally decided to adapt and take our advice! And, look what happened - you had a fun evening with a woman who enjoyed herself in your company and hopefully, wants to see you again... will wonders never cease! Good for you!

 

 

 

I will pour cold water and say she isn't single so yes. Nevertheless it was fun because the negatives were there.

 

 

As pathetic as it sounds for me this is a sort of a win, just because the body language was good and for once I could put my overly analytical thinking aside.

[ZA Dater]

Great job on the great date! Please share more details. Are you arranging a real date after this first meet soon?

 

 

 

^^^Glad you were able to be in the moment. I think you used to get way too fixated on the outcome, and forget to enjoy the process for itself. You can have a fun date without discussing Einstein’s major contributions in theoretical physics beyond relativity. Even if nothing comes out of it, you still had a great time.

 

 

 

Not a lot of point because she isn't single but we get along well. I just enjoy the company and I cant say that a lot of the time. I did REALLY try to do things differently this time and the win I think was the body language I got back.

 

 

I got "I didn't know you could public speak so superbly".

 

 

The thing has always been I can do really well if I can find the confidence and I detach my over thinking mind. I also did what you told me to, the comfort zone was found very quickly.

 

 

But as always there is someone else and while part of me minds that a part of me doesn't because it was a fun evening.

[JuneL]

I am confused. First, I assume the public speech was done to a larger audience, so her compliment on your public speech didn’t reflect your one-on-one interactions with her, right? Second, I would think her not being single automatically took pressure off you, as you didn’t have to worry about whether she will reject you romantically. Or do you have problems interacting with women in general, even not in the dating context?

[Imajerk17]

Not a lot of point because she isn't single but we get along well. I just enjoy the company and I cant say that a lot of the time. I did REALLY try to do things differently this time and the win I think was the body language I got back.

 

 

I got "I didn't know you could public speak so superbly".

 

 

The thing has always been I can do really well if I can find the confidence and I detach my over thinking mind. I also did what you told me to, the comfort zone was found very quickly.

 

 

But as always there is someone else and while part of me minds that a part of me doesn't because it was a fun evening.

 

 

This was K right?

 

It's all good. The way you acted w your friend, it's not something you are doing, it is something you are *becoming*. A more confident bold relaxed version of who you were before.

 

Good update!