Why can't people be liked for who they are

[normal person]

Delete, delete, delete.

[Normm]

At this point, one could make the argument.

 

 

True. It's almost without question that's why he's here.

[Imajerk17]

No there is just a disconnect between me and them. There is never any glue to glue the whole date together, no common ground, no common interests and it very much becomes a conversation about nothing.

 

 

Here is an example of what I mean. I am busy (slowly) writing a novel and its one of the things I put on my profile.

 

 

Date: So tell me about your novel you are writing

Me: Well its a mixture of everything, suspense, romance and intrigue.

Me: Do you read books and if so have you read any great ones lately

Date: Well I don't really read.

 

My point is this why ask me about something you have no interest in to begin with, take the conversation down to a dead end.

 

 

Compare to this exchange

 

 

Date: Have you read The Handmaids Tale, or seen the series, its very good and I found it made me question the world we live in, in essence it prescribes a very set role for women in society whereby men are clearly projected as the superior.

Me: I haven't but I will be sure to watch the series. My views is there needs to be equality and respect in society between men an women. I think anything that projects and alternative is interesting to watch/read. I think the world is constantly evolving if you compare the role of women in society today to say the 1950's.

 

 

See the difference, someone brought something new to the table and the whole conversation went on about the roles of men and women and I have started watching the series and am quite enjoying it.

 

 

It makes no logical sense but I need this sort of thing to get the date going, I can then spin of the usual more personal questions from this. it was the same thing with a personal trainer I met a few months back (friend of a friend but not single), got on really well with her from the off because I could see some intellect, some opinion.

 

1. I agree w @basil67. YOU were the one who shut this exchange down

 

Your date clearly had wanted to find out more about you, as in you personally, ZA Dater. She not only had read your profile but she actually made a point of remembering bits and pieces. She gave you a question that provided you an opportunity to shine. And you didn't do anything with it.

 

You could have talked about what inspired you to start writing. Given her insight as to how you approach things, such as your career, ect. She probably would have really liked to have heard more on that. Then you could have asked her about *her* passions. She may be a whole lot smarter and more engaged but YOU never really gave her the chance to show you that.

 

It's like shortshifting a 911 GT3 RS at 3000 rpm and then complaining that the car doesn't go!

 

My point is not to beat you up, it is instead to get you to realize the mistakes you are making--fixable mistakes--on your dates.

 

 

2. RE the bottom blurb that I bolded, this is a DATE. The goal is to get to know each other and to vibe, not to discuss a bunch of esoteric subjects. If you really would rather be analyzing books or discussing 1950s culture there surely are literary clubs for you to join.

Edited July 25, 2018 by Imajerk17

[GemmaUK]

Sorry ZA, the fail in this conversation was squarely on you. And do I remember rightly that you complain that women don't ask you about yourself?

 

She asked the question because she was trying to get to know you. However, you gave her an overly simplistic answer and hit the ball back to her. You could have talked about how long you've been trying to write. About if you find writing easy or difficult. About where you find inspiration. About finding the courage to tackle your dream. Bu1t no, you basically dodged the question and then complain because she doesn't read.

 

100% agreed.

[GemmaUK]

It makes perfect sense to YOU. Not the person you're directing it towards. Which means that in your mind, they're not worthy of your time and interest. I didn't get your point and I've got a high IQ with the Mensa certificate and the physician degree on my wall to prove it.

 

 

 

Duh. No kidding that part is OBVIOUS. But look what you wrote prior to that statement. You used it as a "case in point", an example as to why your dates never go anywhere. But the way you presented it makes no sense whatsoever- and this happens quite often in your posts- you try to make some point, convey some idea, draw some sort of conclusion- but it comes across as unfinished gibberish- to everyone except you. Rather than being introspective and thinking "I need to find a better way to convey what I'm trying to say" you assume the person is just stupid, not up to your standards and therefore of no further interest to you.

 

 

 

People don't follow you because you don't communicate clearly. The only one who gets the joke is you.

 

 

 

You do a fine job at keeping yourself entertained. But that's not really why you're there, is it?

 

 

 

 

Agreed. He complains they show no interest and when they do he says "why ask about something you have no interest in".

 

 

Because it's a way to get a dialogue going. Because she just might become interested if you present it in an intriguing sort of way. Do these thoughts ever occur to you? It sounds like you gave up before you even started. "Here's your answer lady, now go ahead and act uninterested like everyone else".

 

 

 

 

 

Exactly. She tried, but the answer was very brief and boring. There is so much you could have done with it. You could have been emphatic, enthusiastic, expressive. Instead you respond like a teenager asked if he did all his chores and you put it all on the other person. "Why ask if you really don't care". This is a serious communication issue that will not be solved by thousands of posts on a relationship forum. You need therapy and a dating coach or you will continue to fail indefinitely.

 

 

Fully agree with all written here.

[brigit87]

2. RE the bottom blurb that I bolded, this is a DATE. The goal is to get to know each other and to vibe, not to discuss a bunch of esoteric subjects. If you really would rather be analyzing books or discussing 1950s culture there surely are literary clubs for you to join.

 

Exactly.

 

Is socializing with a female really what he wants to do?

 

Lots of men like to have sex with women but they don't really enjoy their company. Did OP ever have a girlfriend? Maybe what he should do is to figure out what he really wants and if it's realistic.

 

TBH I want lots of unrealistic stuff.

[basil67]

 

2. RE the bottom blurb that I bolded, this is a DATE. The goal is to get to know each other and to vibe, not to discuss a bunch of esoteric subjects. If you really would rather be analyzing books or discussing 1950s culture there surely are literary clubs for you to join.

 

Yes, I noticed that too. Now, I loved the Handmaid's Tale but this is not how I'd go about discussing the series in a casual conversation. I'd be more likely to talk about how I feel about the characters. Eg, how I alternately liked and disliked Aunt Lydia. And about how the final episode in series 2 jumped the shark.

[Normm]

Did OP ever have a girlfriend?

 

 

You must be new here. The Op has never had a second date, let alone a girlfriend.

[brigit87]

You must be new here. The Op has never had a second date, let alone a girlfriend.

 

That explains a lot.

 

OP if you have never had a second date then you do have serious relationship issues that could never be addressed properly on an online forum.

[ZA Dater]

You know what I decide to try more of the advice here again with no specific purpose, it was a group of clients, one of which is a lady who also writes, it was a good conversation, of course the wine started to flow and her body language and language became more suggestive.

 

I wasn't going there with a client especially not considering how much wine she had had but I reckon I may have had a chance if I wanted to.

 

Mistake, not sure.

[basil67]

You know what I decide to try more of the advice here again with no specific purpose, it was a group of clients, one of which is a lady who also writes, it was a good conversation, of course the wine started to flow and her body language and language became more suggestive.

 

I wasn't going there with a client especially not considering how much wine she had had but I reckon I may have had a chance if I wanted to.

 

Mistake, not sure.

 

Yes, it is sensible to not take things further with a client. If things sour, they will become an ex-client. At the very least, it's something I'd be very cautious about and only consider after a long and obvious mutual courtship dance.

[Normm]

I wasn't going there with a client especially not considering how much wine she had had but I reckon I may have had a chance if I wanted to.

 

Dude you never got a second date in 34 YEARS.

 

To Hell with professional ethics.

 

Besides who says you can't date a client?

 

It's not like you're a psychiatrist

[brigit87]

I wasn't going there with a client especially not considering how much wine she had had but I reckon I may have had a chance if I wanted to.

 

Mistake, not sure.

 

No mistake. That shows good judgement and you chose not to take advantage of a woman who drank too much. Most ppl get more flirtatious when they drink. Steer clear.

[Normm]

No mistake. That shows good judgement and you chose not to take advantage of a woman who drank too much. Most ppl get more flirtatious when they drink. Steer clear.

 

 

I have exactly the opposite opinion given his history.

 

 

 

She was practically in his LAP.

[brigit87]

I have exactly the opposite opinion given his history.

 

 

 

She was practically in his LAP.

 

LOL! I doubt that. She probably leaned in a bit, maybe played with her hair, crossed and uncrossed her legs, giggled took another sip of wine. She might have been enjoying his attention. IDK. I wasn't there.

 

But mixing business with pleasure usually ended up badly.

[Normm]

LOL! I doubt that. She probably leaned in a bit, maybe played with her hair, crossed and uncrossed her legs, giggled took another sip of wine. She might have been enjoying his attention. IDK. I wasn't there.

 

 

True. I got a bit excited and obviously got way ahead of myself there.

 

 

 

Thanks for the reality check.

 

 

But mixing business with pleasure usually ended up badly.

 

 

Even if he lost his job over it, it might have been worth it. If there was anything there of course.

[Beachead]

I think success in dating and relationships, especially in this day and age, is a function of the way we live our own life as well as the way we view ourselves and everything around us. You have to live a life that brings out the best in you. This is what people will pick up on and feel.

 

Dating shouldn't be approached in a desperate, needing kind of way. I believe the only way for a person to come from this kind of standpoint is if they themselves are content and satisfied in their own life they want to share it..they want to give it. I'm not talking about sharing just material things..I'm talking about sharing emotions like compassion, kindness, patience, understanding, generosity etc. Makes us far more calmer, cooler and collected. More balanced.

 

Nothing is more of a turn off than needing someone. That needy, clingy, desperate vibe a person emanates when they just want to be with somebody makes people run the other way.

 

I had a lot of trouble with this and it consequently affected my relationships so I quit but redirected my focus to myself.

 

I still love to meet people and socialize and I use every interaction as practice for several different skills. How to be patient, how to deal with different personality types, how to de-escalate conflict, how to avoid it altogether, how to read people, how to get them to talk, how to listen, how to ask questions etc. So many things.

 

I also started appreciating the people I had in my life and the help I've received no matter how big or small it was. I've learned how to sit in a coffee shop, watch some tv at home with a beer, or travel on my own and be perfectly okay with it.

 

And I put my effort into different avenues that bring me joy and peace. This way, I have managed to dilute the affect of sh*tty things that people constantly do and will continue to do on the daily because I have my own life going on. It doesn't bother me as much. It makes me more balanced. I feel far less insecure, far more confident, more at peace and although I don't wish to return to dating anytime soon, I do feel far more equipped to handle a relationship now than I ever did in my life.

 

There is a lot benefit in self-focus that translates to having a healthy successful relationship.

 

- Beach

Edited July 25, 2018 by Beachead

[ZA Dater]

1. I agree w @basil67. YOU were the one who shut this exchange down

 

Your date clearly had wanted to find out more about you, as in you personally, ZA Dater. She not only had read your profile but she actually made a point of remembering bits and pieces. She gave you a question that provided you an opportunity to shine. And you didn't do anything with it.

 

You could have talked about what inspired you to start writing. Given her insight as to how you approach things, such as your career, ect. She probably would have really liked to have heard more on that. Then you could have asked her about *her* passions. She may be a whole lot smarter and more engaged but YOU never really gave her the chance to show you that.

 

It's like shortshifting a 911 GT3 RS at 3000 rpm and then complaining that the car doesn't go!

 

My point is not to beat you up, it is instead to get you to realize the mistakes you are making--fixable mistakes--on your dates.

 

 

2. RE the bottom blurb that I bolded, this is a DATE. The goal is to get to know each other and to vibe, not to discuss a bunch of esoteric subjects. If you really would rather be analyzing books or discussing 1950s culture there surely are literary clubs for you to join.

 

 

I don't agree. She doesn't read books so why bother talking about something she clearly has no interest in. See this is it, if I am not getting anything back why must I launch into a whole lecture. Its a complete waste of time.

 

 

Why must I be the one to show them anything? Surely you go on a date to try impress someone though I am told you go to have a good time so perhaps I am wrong on that one!

 

 

 

I'd love to find a date to discuss the merits of the GT3 versus the Cayman GT4 but that's about as likely as finding oil in my backyard.

[ZA Dater]

Exactly, no matter the amount of self-improvement, your personnality doesnt change. You can however become more active, more involved, more interesting, less awkward, which makes other people accept your personnality, even if its flawed, because you entertain them.

 

See the "bad boy" personnality that makes all the "beta males" fret over ? That's just it : the person sounds terrible, but is interesting/entertaining, and thats enough for some (i'd say, most) people to excuse bad attitude.

 

The worst social disease is not being fat, poor, with mental issues... the true social disease is being awkward, boring, and lonely.

We have a saying with a friend : "the funny little big guy scores much more than the fit but bland one". Never proven wrong.

 

 

 

Which when you think about it is illogical and makes no sense at all. No, I don't particularly care for that type of guy, especially socially where it is possible to really show them up.

 

 

Absolutely agree with the second point. Boring is subjective though. Lonely is a function of simply not conforming to what everyone else wants.

 

 

If you fall into the latter group I guess you have a choice, feel poorly about yourself or simply not care at all.

[ZA Dater]

Your life might be fine without dating.

 

 

It might but I'd at least like a few decent experiences before I decide its not for me.

 

 

I carry around the social stigma of never dating and that's somewhat uncomfortable, very in fact. The odd occasion I go out I need to deal with the inevitable questions around this.

[ZA Dater]

I think success in dating and relationships, especially in this day and age, is a function of the way we live our own life as well as the way we view ourselves and everything around us. You have to live a life that brings out the best in you. This is what people will pick up on and feel.

 

Dating shouldn't be approached in a desperate, needing kind of way. I believe the only way for a person to come from this kind of standpoint is if they themselves are content and satisfied in their own life they want to share it..they want to give it. I'm not talking about sharing just material things..I'm talking about sharing emotions like compassion, kindness, patience, understanding, generosity etc. Makes us far more calmer, cooler and collected. More balanced.

 

Nothing is more of a turn off than needing someone. That needy, clingy, desperate vibe a person emanates when they just want to be with somebody makes people run the other way.

 

I had a lot of trouble with this and it consequently affected my relationships so I quit but redirected my focus to myself.

 

I still love to meet people and socialize and I use every interaction as practice for several different skills. How to be patient, how to deal with different personality types, how to de-escalate conflict, how to avoid it altogether, how to read people, how to get them to talk, how to listen, how to ask questions etc. So many things.

 

I also started appreciating the people I had in my life and the help I've received no matter how big or small it was. I've learned how to sit in a coffee shop, watch some tv at home with a beer, or travel on my own and be perfectly okay with it.

 

And I put my effort into different avenues that bring me joy and peace. This way, I have managed to dilute the affect of sh*tty things that people constantly do and will continue to do on the daily because I have my own life going on. It doesn't bother me as much. It makes me more balanced. I feel far less insecure, far more confident, more at peace and although I don't wish to return to dating anytime soon, I do feel far more equipped to handle a relationship now than I ever did in my life.

 

There is a lot benefit in self-focus that translates to having a healthy successful relationship.

 

- Beach

 

 

Very sensible post. I'd be interested to know how you deal with the social aspect of never having dates, how you deal with the inevitable loneliness.

 

 

I have done the "work and work and work" thing to distract myself but its not working as well as it used to, perhaps because I have been to so many funerals this year the realisation really hit home I am 34, never dated, never really had that whole experience in life.

 

 

Of course I have my interests, things I am working on but it becomes a bit shallow when there is nobody to share any of that with.

[basil67]

I don't agree. She doesn't read books so why bother talking about something she clearly has no interest in. See this is it, if I am not getting anything back why must I launch into a whole lecture. Its a complete waste of time.

 

This conversation was not about books! It was about her getting to know you and what you enjoy. She may not read, but that doesn't mean she should avoid discussing you and your interests.

 

Conversations in a relationship can't always be about things of mutual interest. Hubby and I have very little in common in terms of interests, yet we always find things to talk about. The secret is to be a good listener and a good sharer.

[brigit87]

I'd love to find a date to discuss the merits of the GT3 versus the Cayman GT4 but that's about as likely as finding oil in my backyard.

 

Maybe start dating men cause I doubt most women will know what you're talking about.

 

Let me know about the oil.

[brigit87]

It might but I'd at least like a few decent experiences before I decide its not for me.

 

 

I carry around the social stigma of never dating and that's somewhat uncomfortable, very in fact. The odd occasion I go out I need to deal with the inevitable questions around this.

 

Don't date because others expect you to do so. Also, if someone brings up dating you can give a vague answer like "I was seeing this girl for a while but it didn't work out...don't feel like getting into it."

 

Nobody has to know your business.

[Normm]

I don't agree. She doesn't read books so why bother talking about something she clearly has no interest in. See this is it, if I am not getting anything back why must I launch into a whole lecture. Its a complete waste of time.

 

Your inability to comprehend why it's necessary to talk about things that interest you, with enthusiasm and even passion - regardless of the level of interest of the other person- is yet another example of how you continue to miss the boat.

 

You can sit there and continue to bash the other person and say "why should I try" and "it's not right that I should have to (whatever).." and "they don't interest me at all" until the cows come home but that attitude will get you no closer to that elusive second date.

 

All around you are people meeting and dating and are in relationships to varying degrees of success, and here you are, in a sort of bubble, with few to no potential first dates and unable to get past a first date when you do get one. In order to break this cycle of failure, you need to accept that the problem is clearly not with all those people around you. The problem lies squarely with the guy looking back at you in the mirror. Unless you are truly willing to make some changes and dispose of the "why must I" attitude you are well on your way to being a 90 year old virgin.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Normm